Results - 6/15/09
416 AccRel - 400gr at 2500 FPS Max, 2400 easy
458 AccRel - 500 gr at 2400 FPS - 2300 is EASY
470 AccRel - 500 gr at 2400 FPS - 2300 is easy
500 AccRel - 535 at 2400+, 600gr at 2300+, knock off 100fps, and the brass will last a long itme.

The 416, 458, and 470 are shortened and improved 375 RUM brass, 2.55" long cases, 3.35 OAL max length. These are slightly larger capacities than the 416 rem, 458 Lott, and 470 capstick, accordingly.

The 500 is a shortened and improved 416 rigby, 2.65 case, 3.4" oal. it is more or less 130 grain of water capacity.

These have been built on Rugers, Mausers, Enfields, Weatherby, Winchesters, and Savage.

Introducing the

470 AR
or
375rum x.470 2.55"


Take the 375 rum
trim to 2.85
Form shoulder
fireform
trim to 2.55

Will fit in any standard magnum action (good thing to do with a burnt .264)

should easily match the 470 NE in a bolt gun

CHEAP brass (headstamp would cost about 15cents more for the first 2000 pieces)

Not made from the 404, as that brass is very expensive, compared!!

the length is between the RUM and the wsm, so it will have more capacity than even the lott, and will fit in model 70s, 700, savages, mausers, etc etc etc

Boomstick, it will even fit in a BLR that started as a 300 win

In fact, let's call this entire line of 2.55" rum cartridges the xxx AR.


So, next steps.
I'll draw this up and send to Dave Manson to finalize (probably today)

(What has to be done---donations welcomed!!)
order parts
$200 for a reamer and headspace gages
$185 for reloading dies
$150 barrel
$XX for an action.

Who wants one?

Jeffe
Forming 500 AR from 416 Rigby - though commerical headstamped brass is available

416 Rigby, Shortened and Die-formed, Fireform, loaded. to the right, 416 Taylor and 375HH

Peyton taylor shooting his 458 AR with remington 405s


Neal Shirley, and a nice board taken with his 458 AR


Con's 458 AR


Short and Fat's 458 AR


Payton's 500 AR barreled action - Stainless Ruger and McGowen barrel


The first headstamped brass


Please ignore the obvious editing on the 458 Dies, as I sent my set to OZ .. i'll get another soon.. These have been used to make all of the formed headstamped brass, to date.


500 ar+bmg bullet 4.155 long - COULD fit in a PH action


My 470 AR

Neal's and MY 458 AR


Case Drawings

load safe in my guns, looked fine. all warnings on using ANY loads you get off the internet

all vels are ave of group, at 14ft, chronograghed. 83deg F, 100%humidity

remember, the target for the 500ar with 535gr bullets is 2350... we CLOBBER that

500 AR - 535gr woodleighs, 3.4" oal, 24" barrel

h335
100gr 2390ps
101gr 2425fps
102gr 2456fps

i4895
99gr 2305fps
100gr 2318fps
101gr 2357fps

458 AR 500gr hornady SP, 3.35OAL, 23" barrel

h335
83gr 2310fps
84gr 2333fps
85gr 2374fps

I4895
83gr 2181fps
84gr 2222fps
85gr 2250fps

all loads APPREARED to be perfectly reasonable, and I will start from here and go forward...

all loads on the 458 AR had strikingly small SD (8 or LESS) this time as wellin fact, let's go ahead an call it
470 ar
458 ar
416 ar
375 ar
9,3 ar
358 ar
338 ar
8mm ar
308 ar
7mm ar
270 ar
264 ar
257 ar
243 ar

All will have the same headspace gages
These will be NON-proprietary rounds, so the reamer will be open to everyone.. however, I do reserve the right to approve each of the new prints from the reamer companies, to ensure they will all work.

I'll probably have all of these drawings to manson in the next week or so

jeffe

Sounds good to me Jeffe. Some time ago, I had wanted to trim the RUM case to 2.5" and neck to .416 (there used to be a picture in an old thread of mine here somewhere), so this appears to be right up my alley. Kinda like the Howell line of cartridges, except based on the RUM brass. I like it.

How are they all going to have the same size neck and different size bullet?

Are you saying you are going to take on the work and whick manufacturer's barrel is that you are going to use?

It'll be interesting to see what the real world numbers come out to once you shoot it. You should be able to get one up and running in pretty short order then I would imagine. Good idea Jeffe, I wonder if Saeed will want one?

Red

COUNT ME IN!

Red,
I misspoke.. i meant they will all have 1 calber necks.

I expect they'll be pacnor barrels, when it's all said and done

jeffe

Jeffe:

Would the Montana Rifleman M1999 Magnum Length action work for this project?

577.
heck yeah!!

jeffe

You're a bad influence My buddy who shot my 458 Lott asked if I might think about selling it. Having planted that in my head, and realizing that while I like the gun, it's far from perfection, I got to thinking about what I'd replace it with. So far the options are, get a CZ-550 458 Lott, get a Ruger 458 Lott, get a CZ-550 416 Rigby to make a 450 Rigby, or have a Montana 99 turned into a 470 AR.

The one plus of the 470 is I have a 1/2 dozen different molds in .475", from 275 to 460 gr, of course I'd need to do something like get a 500-530 gr mold.

Jeffe, I sent you a PM.

What modifications would a m98 in 264 winmag take? I have a sporterized albeit it in need of a few things (different safety, grinding a reblue, the costmetics), 98 in 264. I was gonna sell it off for money, but for 150 barrel and 185 dies plus getting it chambered it might be worth keeping for fun.

Red
PS
everybody I know I spelled cosmetics wrong, I now am going to refer to unnecessary for function gun modifications as COSTmetics.

does this mean the "new a.r. cart threrad" is actualy spawning something?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

should we ask for $20 donations from those willing to help finance our madness? i think $20 a head is a good start, list your address for donations and keep a running thankyou thread of benafactors

quote:

does this mean the "new a.r. cart threrad" is actualy spawning something?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

should we ask for $20 donations from those willing to help finance our madness? i think $20 a head is a good start, list your address for donations and keep a running thankyou thread of benafactors

LIVE FREE OR DIE!

You could count on a donation from me!

Jeffe;

What kind of $$$$ is needed to get a finished rifle out of this? Ballpark it...

i see the future...i see you in handloader magazine center spread...

how long will it be before the testing?

I think, actually, storing the reamers at pacnor will be the fastest/easiest way... This will allow us to send to chris and casey, and they can do all the work, at, frankly, a reasonable cost.

I think you can send a rifle to them, they'll give you a barrel, tapered, chambered, feeding, bolt faces, and bllued for under $700 (i think that's more than they ask, but let's ball park it)

Thinking that I'll do the first one, then send to Pacnor, as that will allow the whole AR world to have it.


Some days I can't think if a 450 is better, but everyone has already done nearly everything on the .458 bullet.

I am aiming at 500gr at 2200 with moderate pressure from a 23" barrel, about 9.5# done.

So, if we go in together, I bet we can get Pacnor and CH4D to make us a group buy. The brass will just be RUM!!!

think about it.. I would expect a model 70 could do this, with 2 or perhaps THREE down, for basically a rebarrel from a mag

So, what i would like to do is to find out the interest level...
see who wants to go in on the buy

there's a couple levels..
1: sure.. i am in for a ccouple bucks for the reamer and headspace gages to go to pacnor
2: sure, I would like to do 1 AND buy a set of dies
3: let's DO it, put me in as dies, reamer, and pacnor group buy

thoughts?

Oh, let's say, Nov 1 for "I am in"

Pacnor is cheaper than me.. they have TIME.. i just have PROJECTS LOL

jeffe

i like the 470 for the pistol bullet plinking and deer hunting aspect. and north fork 500 gr flat point solids for d.g. right now i am on the willing to chip in for the test model expense although if the 375 a.r. is a big success it might be my b.l.r. project caliber

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
does this mean the "new a.r. cart threrad" is actualy spawning something?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

should we ask for $20 donations from those willing to help finance our madness? i think $20 a head is a good start, list your address for donations and keep a running thankyou thread of benafactors

I'll help with $20 for that goal.....

quote:

I'll help with $20 for that goal.....

good on ya vap and 577 nitro express...lets keep in going

jeffeosso...

what are your predictions for the other cals? e.g. 500 gr. 458, 400 gr. 416, 300 gr 375, 250 gr. 338, 180 gr. 30-06 ect. thanks

The .416 version does sound interesting. Anybody care to wing a guess as to how it would compare with the Rem Mag version I've coveted since I found this blasted site?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
I had previously profiled a round I was going to call the 470 trollbane, for obvious reasons. Then I realized that nothing shoulder fired could penetrate this particular troll's heads (several handles)

Okay, so we'll rename it

470 AR
or
375rum x.470 2.65"


Take the 375 rum
trim to 2.85
Form shoulder
fireform
trim to 2.65

Will fit in any standard magnum action (good thing to do with a burnt .264)

should easily match the 470 NE in a bolt gun

CHEAP brass (headstamp would cost about 15cents more for the first 2000 pieces)

Not made from the 404, as that brass is very expensive, compared!!

the length is between the RUM and the wsm, so it will have more capacity than even the lott, and will fit in model 70s, 700, savages, mausers, etc etc etc

Boomstick, it will even fit in a BLR that started as a 300 win

In fact, let's call this entire line of 2.65" rum cartridges the xxx AR.


So, next steps.
I'll draw this up and send to Dave Manson to finalize (probably today)

(What has to be done---donations welcomed!!)
order parts
$200 for a reamer and headspace gages
$185 for reloading dies
$150 barrel
$XX for an action.

Who wants one?

Jeffe

Now theres a round "Worth" chambering into a BLR .. jeffeosso Dam fine idea ...
One more L E V E R A C T I O N Round for Africa.. R A Y

Martin

I am interested in contributing, too...

jeffe,

You are suprising me . I did not think that you were capable of coming up with a new cartridge that DID NOT MAKE OVER 100#+ OF RECOIL

A whole family of SANE cartridges, for mere mortals.

Hog Killer

hog killer...now you have to chip in $20 for mocking him....lets make that the rule, if you mock him or the cart you get taxed $20 for the r+d of the making of it

can someone do a quick-load on the cart for 500 gr. 458, 400 gr. 416, 300 gr 375, 250 gr. 338, 180 gr. 30-06 ect. thanks

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
hog killer...now you have to chip in $20 for mocking him....lets make that the rule, if you mock him or the cart you get taxed $20 for the r+d of the making of it

Not hardly, as I suspect that the range work will be here at my place. And I like the idea of sub-100# recoil.

Hog Killer

light recoil..

i must be getting old!!

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
can someone do a quick-load on the cart for 500 gr. 458, 400 gr. 416, 300 gr 375, 250 gr. 338, 180 gr. 30-06 ect. thanks

What max pressure are you looking for? Keeping to about 60-62 kpsi I'd guestimate the 470 will do 500's @ 2300 with ease, 416 400's @ 2400-2500, 375 300 ~2600, and why would anyone want to go any smaller

I agree with hogkiller on keeping loads in the reasonable range, I just finished a short lunchtime range session and found 500 gr @ 2250 from the Lott is enough to let you know the gun went off, but I really don't have a desire to go any higher. I'd say during load work last week I was pushing the 500's to 2300, and I could definately feel the extra 50 fps, and I'm likely going to drop 2 gr for 2200 even.

quote:

What max pressure are you looking for? Keeping to about 60-62 kpsi I'd guestimate the 470 will do 500's @ 2300 with ease, 416 400's @ 2400-2500, 375 300 ~2600, and why would anyone want to go any smaller

if the 416 a.r. does that it will be the new "416 rem" without the belt

Or a 416 Howell 26 years after the fact.

Before anyone sends in donations ( )

i'll got pick up some rum brass and make some dummies..

this might require neck reaming.. which doesn't bother me, but it can be a hassle.. I just asked in reloading, and the walls are .016.. will need to be reamed to .01.. which gives us a .0125/side.. or .025 headspace..

jeffe

In another thread, I mentioned a .475/.375 based on the RUM case and wondered if that had been done before, or something like it.
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/798103743

Canuck says it's the .470 Capstick ( which I also mentioned reading about in an old magazine from years ago ).

Isn't the RUM case a little bigger/longer than what the Capstick is made from...?
I don't know, so I ask!
It was the .470 Capstick article that all of a sudden put stars in my eyes with the number .475

When I look at the difference in the names:
.470 AR
.475 AR

I like .475 better because it's more distinctive, unique, and won't be confused with anything else named '.470'

Just an idea about keeping the alpha-numeric designator 'special'...

quote:

Isn't the RUM case a little bigger/longer than what the Capstick is made from...?
I don't know, so I ask!

Yes it is. The 470 Capstick is based on the .375 H&H case.

And the Capstick was done years ago
as the 475 OKH--The K being Elmer.
You guys sure going to make a use for all
the RUM brass out there. Ed.

just for visual

375 rum

Boom, can you explain that .578 dimension on the far right side of the drawing?

quote:

When I look at the difference in the names:
.470 AR
.475 AR

.470 AR denotes a .475 bullet, and .475 AR would denote a .483 or larger bullet.



Ed,
I think this will finally make what the rum and wsm should have been!!!

i haven't made up a case to measure and weigh.. though I think the capacity will be slightly larger than a full length 375 HH case

tell canuch jeffe says "the rum is "basically" a 404..." and yeah, performance will be about the same as the capstick!!

Since it's more or less the same capacity as a full sized HH case (capstick, lott, huffman, 375 webby).... and loading it to moderate pressures.. which makes it "right" rather than "max speed"

estimated, based off HH case max loads

470 - 500gr at 2200
458 - 510gr at 2200
416 - 400gr at 2300
375 - 300gr at 2600
9,3 - 286gr at 2600
358 - 250gr at 2800
338 - see 340webby, subtract 200fps for pressure
8mm - see 8 rem, -200fps for pressure
308 - see 300 weatherby
rest.. well, REALLY fast



jeffe

Jeff, I think I see a switch-barrel rifle in your near future!