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I think a solid metal sabot or tube pipe section that you insert your cast bullets in is interesting.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 26745 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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boom stick,



Buy a donkey for a stimulating thought for THE MISSION.

CNC-machined aluminum sabot ?

Half-inch O.D. copper tube cut to a short length and then sized down to .458" O.D. ?
No, that is too close to homemade Corbin bullets.

The .308 WCF is 0.454" max at shoulder diameter,
0.470" max at base above the extractor cut, and 0.473" max at the rimless rim diameter.
Actual brass measures less than that, and rims are often same diameter as base just above extractor cut.

Tolerance on rim is minus 0.010": 0.463" minimum rim diameter.
Body diameter tolerances are minus 0.008".
Shoulder: 0.446" minimum
Base: 0.462" minimum

Half-way from breech face to shoulder, minimum brass might be 0.4545" diameter.
The maximum brass diameter at that distance from breech face would be 0.4635".
That distance from bottom of cartridge to mid case body is 0.7799".

Cut off the .308 WCF case to about 0.750" length.
Lube it and push it through a .458" bullet sizing die.

Now, what sub-caliber bullet can be snuggly seated in that brass sabot ?
That would be a non-discarding, precision sabot,
with sabot mouth crimped into the sub-caliber bullet,
and case mouth of the .458 Winchester Magnum crimped into a CH4D cannelure on the side of the sabot.
A double-crimped projectile, the .458/.308/.40-ish(?) sabot load.
A .458/308/40 Winchester Magnum Sabot.
.458 WMS. animal

It will be rough on squirrels, better for bear defense, magazine loadable and feed well.
CG forward and sub 3.340" COL.
Drill a hole through centerline of bullet and leave the spent primer off the bottom of the sabot,
and the bullet might whistle while it works.
Then it will have to be supersonic so as not to warn the squirrel that it is coming.
tu2.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Many ways to skin a cat. If you had a dedicated mold for the project you could have a heeled cast bullet to match the tube/cup. If ye got fancy with the CNC lathe turn bullet sock, you could do all kinds of fun stuff but the Idea was to have a way to shoot your cast bullets faster or cleaner etcetera but not too expensive. A CNC lathe turned bore rider cup or tube was what was in my mind.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 26745 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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If you buy 250 of the Blue Sabot from MMP, they cost 17 cents each, free shipping. Even cheaper if you buy 500 of them.



Left to right above:

A new, unfired, Winchester .45 ACP case that has been pushed through a .458" sizer with a one-ton arbor press.
It weighs 89 grains and case mouth wall thickness is only 0.011", spring-back makes it 0.462" after sizing to .458" diameter.
Loose fit for a .44 Mag bullet.
No good as a sabot for .458 Winchester Magnum.

Second from left: Tan Sabot with 200-grain/ 10mm Hornady XTP. Total projectile weight about 210 grains.
May be too loose a fit in the rifling.

Third from left: Blue Sabot with 125-grain .355" Barnes TAC-TX monometal copper. Total projectile weight about 137 grains.
Best fit to rifling,

Fourth from left: A once-fired Lapua .308 WCF case started off with base diameter of 0.470", rim diameter of 0.471".
After .458" sizing, it too sprang back to 0.462" O.D.
"Sabot" mouth wall thickness is 0.030".
Good fit on the 10mm/ 200-gr XTP.
But way too heavy. "Sabot" weighs about 112 grains.
Total projectile weight is about 312 grains.
Might as well use a 300-gr .458 bullet.

Fifth from left: The Hornady XTP 10mm/ 200-grainer.

A Blue Sabot with a Hardcast 158-grainer sized to 0.356" might be best for squirrels plus bear defense.
 
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Paper patch then solid sabot?


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 26745 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Blue sabot will shed don’t you think? That is a good thing yes?


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
~George Washington - 1789
 
Posts: 2025 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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RIP is that pic from Mahohboh?
 
Posts: 6980 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Fury01,

Yes, the Blue Sabot will shed, and yes, that is a very good thing for accuracy.
The .356"/ 158-grain hardcast FN at 1100 fps from the .458 Winchester Magnum is the goal.
If Phil Shoemaker can use a very similar 9mm/ 147-grainer at 1100 fps to kill a large brown bear in a pinch,
then I shall fear no evil when squirrel hunting,
and recoil will be like a .22 LR rimfire.
tu2
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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BaxterB,

Yes, MAHOHBOH, the 1997 book from AFRICA SAFARI PRESS, and I feel an excerpt for book review purposes coming on.
Dust jacket inside flaps:



Arguably the Muhamad Ali of elephant hunters, author Ron "Mahohboh" Thomson preferred the .458 Winchester Magnum.
He said it would shoot reliably through the head of an elephant at 100 yards, though his usual range was 10 to 15 yards.
He once dropped a running cow elephant at 400 yards with a perfect brain shot.
Must have been wounded by another bwana or in a culling operation.
The red god was smiling that day, but Mahohboh rarely missed, smile or not.
 
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There are 15 great photographs of elephant anatomy and "perfect shot" diagrams, above is but a sample for book review puroses.

Book Review: MAHOHBOH, the book by Ron Thomson, is 312 pages of good reading. The instructional chapter on elephant anatomy for the hunter, cannot be improved upon. It is a best buy if you can find a copy.

patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Many thanks for that excellent review RIP. I'll be looking for a copy of my own - just needed to know I was headed in the right direction. ;-)
 
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We would also enjoy a review of a spellbinding story. Why did you choose it? What did you learn or would you like others to learn?


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"A well-rounded hunting battery might include:
500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" --
Conserving creation, hunting the harvest.
 
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Great book! Another is Richard Harland’s Ndlovu published by African Hunter magazine. I believe he liked his .458 too Wink
 
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quote:
Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
We would also enjoy a review of a spellbinding story ...

416Tanzan,
I shall do so, but first we have to give credit to the rest of the crew of .458 Winchester Magnum Masters.

THE THREE MAHOHBOHS

Ron Thomson born 1939

Richard Harland born 1944

Mike LaGrange born 19??

These three are certainly in a "League of Extraordinary Mahohbohs" with the rather exclusive club taking its title from the honorific
of whom I believe to be the eldest member.

The common denominator of these Latter Day Mahohbohs is that they were wise enough to prefer the .458 Winchester Magnum.

As to the total tally for each Mahohboh, it matters little in their league.
Ron Thomson said in response to a friendly inquiry, as recounted by Volker Grellmann
on page xiv in the forward of MAHOHBOH (add xxii more pages to the 312 page book = 334 pages):

"I really don't know," he answered.
"It is a difficult question to answer.
If you mean how many elephant have died as a consequence of me, alone,
pulling the trigger the number is probably somewhere around five thousand.
If you include those that I have 'shared' with other hunters you can add another thousand or so."


(An elephant which has been shot but not killed by one hunter, and which is humanely dispatched by another hunter, is considered a 'shared' kill for the record. Young hunters under training, and experienced hunters who are doing the training, therefore, 'share' many elephant kills in the training process.)

"And I have been involved in hunts and in culling operations
when many thousands of elephants have been killed by other hunters, too,
without any contribution from me.

"Anyway ... what does it matter? What's a few thousand elephant between friends!"
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Jabalihunter,

NDLOVU by Richard Harland, 2005, is a great one for THE MISSION also.
I bought a copy from him in person and watched him autograph it:
"Ron,
With my best regards,
Richard Harland
Dallas,
Jan '06"

If Thomson is THE reference for elephant anatomy,
then Harland is THE reference for "Elephant Rifles,"
par excellence.

A review of that as well as his forerunner book "THE HUNTING IMPERATIVE, Biography of a Boy in Africa"
shall surely make for mileage for THE MISSION.
patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
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The longer load plus higher pressure is a Lott of fun.
But three point three four and sixty thousand will get it done,
if the rifle is chambered for the four five eight Winchester.
Believe the Three Mahohbohs, or you're a monkey's sister.
patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Peter Grobler was a 458 Win Mag fan. Also, I forget his name, but the guy who was Winchester’s Man in Africa used the 458 Win Mag a lot.
 
Posts: 3889 | Location: Somewhere above Tennessee and below Kentucky  | Registered: 31 July 2016Reply With Quote
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Joshing again ? Buy a donkey for THE MISSION.

That Peter Grobler (sic) is actually Paul "Kambada" Grobler (born 1922) who was mentor to Richard Harland.
Richard's first .458 Winchester Magnum came fair dinkum from Paul when he got a .460 Weatherby.
I bet it was not long until Paul was looking for another Four Five Eight.

"Winchester's Man in Africa" of course was David Ommanney, whom we have previously resurrected for THE MISSION.



Paul "Kambada" Grobler might well qualify as a Mahohboh, having hunted from 1945 to 1990, for 45 years, and may have bagged over a thousand elephant in 1949 alone.
But he did surrender a .458 Winchester Magnum for a .460 Weatherby Magnum ...
 
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"Kambada" has something to do with an indigenous word for "leopard," mbada.
Maybe short for "him badass."
 
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1,000 to 1,200 elephant in one year.

Once Samaki Salmon was asked by a visiting British royal family member how many elephant he had bagged.
Samaki couldn't quite tally it up exactly, so replied to his highness:
"That is like asking a dentist how many teeth he has pulled." ... or something like that.
 
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Kambada may have gone "Hollywood" with a .460 Weatherby,
but he was the "Doyen of Ivory Hunters" who got a young Richard Harland fixed up with his first .458 Winchester Magnum.

Review of this book will follow after I have read it, looking for references to the .458 Winchester Magnum of course.
Getting started:
From the Grobler Clan tree: Gert and Elisabeth Grobler had 5 sons and 6 daughters.
Paul was born in 1922 (as stated previously, good to know a year of birth for either a man or a cartridge).
Paul's sister Sally married a guy named Berry, Mr. Guybon Berry (must have been a good guy) Wink
and Paul's sister Nellie married a guy named Kruger, Mr. Phil Kruger ...
 
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Also to be reviewed, Richard Harland's autobiographical work of 2001 which preceded AFRICAN EPIC and NDLOVU:

 
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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A teaser, Richard Harland's wristband ammo carrier with 6 rounds of .458 Winchester Magnum at the ready ...
HEY ! That would be a great shooting stabilizer for the offhand limiting of muzzle rise in recoil,
faster followup shots.
Hang on tight and it works like a charm:



Tricky Dick Harland knows the .458 Winchester Magnum and how to use it.

I gotta get me one of those wristbands.

patriot
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.
 
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That’s a fancy looking FN...
 
Posts: 6980 | Registered: 31 January 2005Reply With Quote
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BaxterB,
Aye, it is. And anyone who cut his teeth and muscle memory on a .30-06-length action would surely lust after it for use as
an elephant rifle,
or buffalo rifle,
or bear rifle,
with 500-gr @ 2150 fps to 450-gr @ 2300 fps to 400-gr @ 2500 fps,
or even as a squirrel rifle with 147-gr-saboted load at 1100 fps MV.
 
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NDLOVU by Richard Harlan et al, from AFRICAN HUNTER in 2005, excerpts from its 496 pages and dust jacket below for book review purposes:

 
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Yep, wearing his left wristband above.
NDLOVU is without a doubt the best single reference book on the subject of elephant hunting,
and the most thorough and honest assessment of the .458 Winchester Magnum, IMHO.
This book has it all, including a collection of excellent appendices on firearms, terminal ballistics, "Age Criteria for Elephants", and a big bonus "Tusker's Gallery."
Two of the firearms/ballistics related appendices were written by Daniel McCarthy, aka long lost member "500 grains."
 
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Appendix I starts off with this, and there is more that casts doubt on anyone who said the Remington FMJ solid bullet was somehow better than the Winchester FMJ solid used in factory loads.

 
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Glorious !

 
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Someone is going to have to explain to me the difference between the ".450 Watts" and ".458 Watts"
as stated below.
All the rest is clear and true, IMHO.

 
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It is the "Bible of Elephant Hunting."
Anyone interested in the subject needs to get a copy of NDLOVU by Richard Harland.
Even the chaps who think they need "more" than the .458 Winchester Magnum will be fascinated by the book.
 
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