THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM BIG BORE FORUMS

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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Beware the black hole!
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Beware the black hole:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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RIPP--- getting in to the red meat

he is showing us kids now to do it


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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stradling,

I was just "kidding" with the kidnapper thing, flopped miserably.

The way I see the true ancestory of the .458 WIN:

John Rigby: Great-great Grandfather
Holland & Holland: Great Grandfather
Westley Richards: Grandfather
James Watts: Father
Winchester Arms: Kidnapper Adoptive Parents who nurtured the Watts kid to greatness.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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BTW, I looked up the Matt's Bullets .458/730-grain WFN GC at the website:

"A very heavy bullet for .458 rifles.
It can be used for extreme loads in calibers such as 458 Winchester, 458 Lott, 45-120 Sharps, and also the 45-70.
In 45-70, it will not cycle through a lever action however.
The overall length of the bullet is 1.690 and the length of the nose from the crimp groove is 0.720."



http://www.mattsbullets.com/in...h=84&products_id=319

Bullet is 1.690" long, with 0.720" nose projection beyond the crimp groove.
So, seated deep, to crimp groove, COL with 2.500" brass for the .458 WIN would be 3.220".

But if seated to 3.340" COL with that bullet,
and assuming a 94.5-grain H2O capacity for 2.500" brass,
60.0 grains of H4895 would be about a 114% fill, very compressed, according to QuickLOAD,
and
22"-barrel muzzle velocity = 1733 fps
(very close to Bubba's 1717 fps instrumental velocity for one shot, the one after which he was heard to grunt on the video)
and
pressure = 75,231 psi.
holycow
For those looking forward to some kicks with the 730-grainer:

The QuickLOAD powder selection says
Alliant Reloder-17 is tops: 60.0 grains (105% fill), 1695 fps MV (22" barrel), 59,389 psi, 100% burn, 3.340" COL.

Predicted MAX for H4895: 55.3 grains (105% fill), 1624 fps MV (22" barrel), 57,081 psi, 100% burn, 3.340" COL.

Admittedly, QuickLOAD takes zero account of throat, so take all the above with a grain of saltpeter.

At 1600 fps MV a 1:17.7" twist or faster is required for the .458/730-gr WFN GC.
1:18" is too slow.
1:14" is great, works down to 1000 fps MV as cut-off.

As to subsonic plinkers, there are easier ways to do that!
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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More pickin's from the Youtubes that cool cat stradling dragged in:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Plinkers above are the excellent work of another Bubba from Youtube.
Velocities are assumed to be from a 24" barrel on a factory .458 WIN M70.
He is a good handloader, but he needs to improve his scope mounting technique.
This is horrible, even if on a 22 rimfire:

 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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This is just cool, for the ambient temperature during the video recording if nothing else:


tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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New Gun Notification from:

www.champlinarms.com

WINCHESTER 458 WIN. MAG. MODEL 70 PRE-64 SUPER GRADE AFRICAN - 98% BLUE OVERALL - ORIGINAL WOOD FINISH at 97% - MADE in 1957 - Double Cross Bolts - Correct Adjustable Sporting Rear Sight - 13 1/4" Over the Factory Pad - 1,226 458 Win. Mag. Pre-64's Made From 1956 to 1963.
Style: Bolt Rifle
Caliber: 458 Win. Mag.
Price: $7,900.00
Description:

#381677, Winchester 458 Win. Mag. Model 70 Pre-64 Super Grade African Model Made in 1956 with controlled round feed with a claw extractor, 25" barrel with the Winchester adjustable sporting rear sight, Factory front sight hood, Correct barrel sling eye, Standard 3 position safety, Jeweled bolt and follower, Standard Model 70 hinged floorplate marked Super Grade, Super Grade stock with a slight monte carlo comb and cheekpiece, Standard Super Grade wrap around point pattern checkering, Black bakelite forend tip, Two screw tiedown sling eye on the buttstock, Double cross bolts, Steel grip cap, 13 1/4" LOP over the factory pad with the Winchester logo, 8 lbs. 10 oz., This gun is factory original, The factory original blue is 98%, The original wood finish at 97%, The checkering is 99%, The bore is excellent, The rifle appears to have been shot very little and appears it never made its way to Africa. The 458 Win. Mag. is the third rarest of all Model 70 chambering and only 1,226 were made from 1956 to 1963.




That is a REAL COLLECTOR PIECE in great condition.
The HOLY GRAIL of THE MISSION.
Winchester learned to use two crossbolts, instead of only one, by 1957.
An inch-thick, leather & Velcro, slip-on pad would make this one suit me just fine for shootin'.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
BTW, I looked up the Matt's Bullets .458/730-grain WFN GC at the website:

"A very heavy bullet for .458 rifles.
It can be used for extreme loads in calibers such as 458 Winchester, 458 Lott, 45-120 Sharps, and also the 45-70.
In 45-70, it will not cycle through a lever action however.
The overall length of the bullet is 1.690 and the length of the nose from the crimp groove is 0.720."



http://www.mattsbullets.com/in...h=84&products_id=319

Bullet is 1.690" long, with 0.720" nose projection beyond the crimp groove.
So, seated deep, to crimp groove, COL with 2.500" brass for the .458 WIN would be 3.220".

But if seated to 3.340" COL with that bullet,
and assuming a 94.5-grain H2O capacity for 2.500" brass,
60.0 grains of H4895 would be about a 114% fill, very compressed, according to QuickLOAD,
and
22"-barrel muzzle velocity = 1733 fps
(very close to Bubba's 1717 fps instrumental velocity for one shot, the one after which he was heard to grunt on the video)
and
pressure = 75,231 psi.
holycow
For those looking forward to some kicks with the 730-grainer:

The QuickLOAD powder selection says
Alliant Reloder-17 is tops: 60.0 grains (105% fill), 1695 fps MV (22" barrel), 59,389 psi, 100% burn, 3.340" COL.

Predicted MAX for H4895: 55.3 grains (105% fill), 1624 fps MV (22" barrel), 57,081 psi, 100% burn, 3.340" COL.

Admittedly, QuickLOAD takes zero account of throat, so take all the above with a grain of saltpeter.

At 1600 fps MV a 1:17.7" twist or faster is required for the .458/730-gr WFN GC.
1:18" is too slow.
1:14" is great, works down to 1000 fps MV as cut-off.

As to subsonic plinkers, there are easier ways to do that!
tu2
Rip ...


RIP, I'll bet if you seated that bullet out to around 3.78" or so in your 25" CZ, and maybe using a grease groove as a crimp groove, with the right powder you could approach 1900 fps.

I'm not too sure of what value this exercise is, but it is quite fascinating!
 
Posts: 118 | Location: SC | Registered: 10 March 2017Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
New Gun Notification from:

www.champlinarms.com

WINCHESTER 458 WIN. MAG. MODEL 70 PRE-64 SUPER GRADE AFRICAN - 98% BLUE OVERALL - ORIGINAL WOOD FINISH at 97% - MADE in 1957 - Double Cross Bolts - Correct Adjustable Sporting Rear Sight - 13 1/4" Over the Factory Pad - 1,226 458 Win. Mag. Pre-64's Made From 1956 to 1963.
Style: Bolt Rifle
Caliber: 458 Win. Mag.
Price: $7,900.00
Description:

#381677, Winchester 458 Win. Mag. Model 70 Pre-64 Super Grade African Model Made in 1956 with controlled round feed with a claw extractor, 25" barrel with the Winchester adjustable sporting rear sight, Factory front sight hood, Correct barrel sling eye, Standard 3 position safety, Jeweled bolt and follower, Standard Model 70 hinged floorplate marked Super Grade, Super Grade stock with a slight monte carlo comb and cheekpiece, Standard Super Grade wrap around point pattern checkering, Black bakelite forend tip, Two screw tiedown sling eye on the buttstock, Double cross bolts, Steel grip cap, 13 1/4" LOP over the factory pad with the Winchester logo, 8 lbs. 10 oz., This gun is factory original, The factory original blue is 98%, The original wood finish at 97%, The checkering is 99%, The bore is excellent, The rifle appears to have been shot very little and appears it never made its way to Africa. The 458 Win. Mag. is the third rarest of all Model 70 chambering and only 1,226 were made from 1956 to 1963.




That is a REAL COLLECTOR PIECE in great condition.
The HOLY GRAIL of THE MISSION.
Winchester learned to use two crossbolts, instead of only one, by 1957.
An inch-thick, leather & Velcro, slip-on pad would make this one suit me just fine for shootin'.
tu2
Rip ...


What a nice classic rifle.

That is the Anti-Blaser right there!!
 
Posts: 8124 | Registered: 09 January 2011Reply With Quote
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Ron,

The two push feed Super Grades I had (about 1970,mybe 1971, forget, has the two screw holes for the receiver sight. In fact I had a Lyman. However, from memory, the wood went straight along and then stepped down to expose the holes.

Rear sight was very wide shallow V with windage but no elevation.
 
Posts: 7046 | Location: Sydney Australia | Registered: 14 September 2015Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by bcelliott:
RIP, I'll bet if you seated that bullet out to around 3.78" or so in your 25" CZ, and maybe using a grease groove as a crimp groove, with the right powder you could approach 1900 fps.

I'm not too sure of what value this exercise is, but it is quite fascinating!


bcelliott,

Thanks for the reply in support of THE MISSION.
Yes, fascinating.
If I get some of those 730-grainers I will see how long the COL can go in a SAAAMI .458 WIN chamber.
Since 3.780" is close to max COL with a 500 grain TSX of about the same bullet-length, but much pointier,
I doubt that the blunt-nosed .458/730-gr WFN-GC can be loaded that long. It would be into contact with the lands at a significantly shorter COL.
As you say, of what use? But fascinating.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Todd said about THE HOLY GRAIL:

"That is the Anti-Blaser right there!!"

Good one!
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Ron,

The two push feed Super Grades I had (about 1970 ...) ...
Rear sight was very wide shallow V with windage but no elevation.


The Anti-Anti-Blaser rear sight, eh?

It is about time you helped with the page count, Mike. Thanks.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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THE GUNSMITH has accepted "Mission Not-Impossible,"
for THE MISSION.
Little Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger is headed to the "Guns Shop and Spa for Wayward Rifles" for a professional make-over.
Here is what will be tried in her newly elongated chamber, used as a go-gage and as a check for chamber smoothness:



I picked the longest brass I could find in the batch of Starline.
They are 2.600" to 2.605".
The COL is no more than 3.885", so as to push the envelope by another .005".
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I can't think of a thing to add to this,except perhaps I have a box full of 458 components, brass bullet and what all, Id sell chep enough if anyone is interested! coffee and its a good caliber handloaded IMO..I always said the Lott is better and I still believe that and its a cheap conversion, except at my present age I can sure as hell tell the difference in recoil between the two, so the std 458 shows me a better way these days! congratulations RIP!


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 38286 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Ray that open invitation to shoot with us next time you are down this way is still valid

we will shoot anything you like or fancy at the moment

even if it is the one -- only one lott we got--

or one of the 6 ''searcys'' [ rumor has it you like searcy doubles ] or... a best of the bunch
9.3 x 62 for God sakes if you do decide to shoot that one ''DO NOT BRING ANY MONEY'' - heat of the moment passion has wrecked many a marriage

---9.3 x 62 mm is about right for my age-- that and the 303 british !

a few hrs fondling the magnificent [you and I can't afford em ] rifles in the JP Smithson gun shop is well worth the gas bill

and that is a mathematical certainty


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell, Ray Atkinson.

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
I can't think of a thing to add to this,except perhaps I have a box full of 458 components, brass bullet and what all, Id sell cheap enough if anyone is interested!

Ray, I usually buy those "box fulls" from the widows, and since you are in such great shape for your age,
it is going to be a while, before I make an offer on your box full, seeing as I already have dealt with two widows on such.
Someone else, less patient than me, can have dibs on your offer.
Wink

coffee and its a good caliber handloaded IMO..I always said the Lott is better and I still believe that and its a cheap conversion,
except at my present age I can sure as hell tell the difference in recoil between the two, so the std 458 shows me a better way these days! congratulations RIP!


Right! Except the part about the .458 Lott being a better cartridge than the .458 WIN.

There is a fundamental flaw in the .458 Lott 2.8", and a little more so with the .450 Watts Magnum 2.85".

The .458 WIN is a perfect fit in a 3.4" magazine box.
Then if one goes and makes the brass 0.3" longer and then tries to use it in an action only 0.2" longer: homer

The SAAMI .458 WIN is ballistically superior to the SAAMI .458 Lott if both are used in the same 3.6" magazine length and same MAP.
Undeniable.
It is due to the "coned-up breech" (H&H and Westley Richards tricks) of the .458 WIN.

Try using a SAAMI .458 Lott in a 3.4" magazine length? homer homer
With some bullets, the .458 Lott brass has to be trimmed shorter than 2.8" if the cartridge is going to work through a 3.6" magazine.
E.g., the 450-grain and 500-grain Barnes TSX.

The .458 WIN has no such limitations, it is excellent in 3.4", 3.6", and 3.8" magazine lengths.
Yep, gotta handload, but that is the only way to go, unless one is of the type that will shoot only factory ammo in all his rifles. homer homer homer
Handload the .458: Even a caveman can do it.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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stradling,

Soon as I win the lottery I am buying one of those Smithson .458 WIN rifles with all the bells and whistles,
and putting some Smithson scope mounts, peep, and grip cap storage trap on at least one other rifle.

On second thought,
make that 3 .458 WIN rifles by Smithson: 3.4", 3.6" and 3.8" magazine box lengths.
tu2
Rip ...
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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50.0 grains of H4198 in a .45-100 SWT 2.6" leaves about 1.070" length of air space in the case. Filler needed!
Place a 0.02"-thick "over-powder" card over the powder, and now the air space is only 1.050" long.
So, I crammed a 1.25"-long piece of 1/2"-diameter foam caulk-backer rod into the case before seating the bullet.
Very much about the same will work in the .458 WIN.
I will be preferring AA-5744 for such plinking loads.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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My missing out on that 458WM Whitworth before crossing the ditch, RIP, has had an ironic follow up.

I now find myself going on a buffalo hunt in the Northern Territory in June - but will have to make do with the Heym .450/.400.
 
Posts: 4259 | Location: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: 31 March 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Soon as I win the lottery I am buying one of those Smithson .458 WIN rifles with all the bells and whistles,
and putting some Smithson scope mounts, peep, and grip cap storage trap on at least one other rifle.



me too


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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Thanks to sambarman338 and stradling for ringing THE MISSION bell.

Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger is awaiting surgery. She has checked into Dr. McGee's Surgery Center and Spa for Wayward Rifles.
tu2
 
Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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REVIEW FROM PAGE 4 ---2 YEARS AGO---

To summarize the discussions and discoveries of this thread to date

We find you can get 2100 fps and more with no compression in at least one powder under a 500 grain bullet and most likly in several other powders available-- aa 2230 being the one I tested

We find appreciable variation in pressure show across several rifles and each one should be shot with factory and or reload ammunition to see what the rifle shows

We find about 30 fps reduction in velocity per inch of barrel starting with the original standard of 26 inches [correction a 25 inch tube -- why because facts matter here ] shipped on the 1957 original winchester 458 win mag /450 watts short

We discovered that Rhodesia under sanction was compelled to use a local source of ammunition and the south african cartridges suffered from powder sourced in africa resulting in less velocity for that product

We learned that winchester in fact experienced growing pains with the powder used early on and were a bit slow to discover act on and implement the fix

We find that with modern powders heated up to --too hot to handle -- precipitate a velocity increase of 20-40 fps and this is specific to powder type and load density -- not going to blow you up


common sense and testing indicates

it is not prudent to load a 458 up to shoot with a hot lott --- will develop pressure issues, might stick your bolt, not that reliable in africa -- if you chose to do that that way

cutting off the barrel to 18 inches

cramming 79 grains of aa2230 in the case over a 500 grain bullet

and cooking your ammo to 140 degrees

is for sure -- an incompetent strategy-- for squeezing lott like performance out of a 458



We find that with some reasonable compression most short barrel win mag rifles can achieve velocities of 2250 fps using modern primers 500 grain bullets and current powders [barnes bullets are sticky big and need special work up]

Barnes in 2009 Tells us that the low velocity hype is most and more about people cutting off their 26 inch tube not the ammunition factory fibbing to us


He testifies that winchester threw up their hands and just set to work to upgrade the dam chartridge to run 2150 with a 4 inch hack off

no one ever got paid for teaching school and--- do not expect folks to blame the hacksaw any time soon--- it is those crooks at winchester and I am still mad about it



folks have stated that The lott shoots harder faster when loaded up and is a bigger volume case--- but is not the core subject of this discussion-- still it works, is ok, and nothing wrong with it, we have general consensus here

History instructs us that the 458 win mag is enough gun even when you put it to work at 1900 fps pushing 500 grain solids

The recoil for a standard 500 grain bullet at effective velocities is significant and you will need to consider that you are running a dangerous game rifle with 50- 90 pounds of recoil

depending on how you set the rifle up and what you load it with

we have followed the all american 458 cartridge from its inception in 1938 in alaska to washington where it became tangible onward to new haven as a full production winchester then on to east africa

and from there out to the world at large

considerable work has been done on the ammunition in reloading and bullets powder brass primers and tooling to enhance the overall utility of the 458 wm package

the choices of bullet tips range from 256 grain moving out at 3000 fps to 300 grain 350 - 400 - 450 -480 - 500 - 510 and even larger

there are hards and softs solids and monolithic a hand full of specialty bullet makers and most major companies produce for the caliber

then there is the lead bullet inventory including molds and it is extensive , not expensive

To steal a phrase from A square ----- any shot you want

it can be for the reloader a do anything go anywhere any time rifle

ammunition is available on all continents worldwide and we have a good selection of current ammunition manufactures in europe usa as well as other sources

Whatever the 458 win mag does not do, it does get people's attention, some like it, some will not use it, but everyone knows what it is and has an opinion about the round, rifle, and its place in the grand scheme of all things hunting

it is not a prairie dog gun but if you really want to you can use it for that

once you own one and use it a bit, this rifle will stick with you forever, like that first gal, or the deer hunt when you finaly, standing stiff and straight against the measuring wall, reached up and touch the magic 9 year mark

it's not to big you can learn to run it proud

it's not too small it can, has, and will kill everything it touches, no apologies necessary

I like the dam thing, just can not help myself, always have might just need to live with that

now that I have every conceivable rifle below it, and most big bores above it, just up here in the gun rack as I type this line

why do I have a big block of 458 win mags and why do I keep coming back home to them

because they shoot because they work because it is enough

it's not the history the romance the nostalgia but all that stuff helps

Just to be fair I have the same problem with the 9.3 x 62

and the old honest hunting dog over there on the floor

they all work

I know I can count on em

and we enjoy each other's company after the hunt

the dog ---the german ---the alaskan gypsy


Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----
 
Posts: 1016 | Location: SLC Utah  | Registered: 13 February 2009Reply With Quote
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OK Stradling, that was a review of our favorite .458 like none other I've read!!!

But here, finally, is a review of loads fired Wednesday/April 17/9:30am to 11am, at our range, as promised.

I went Wednesday rather than Tuesday (my usual days are either Mondays or Tuesdays to avoid dealing with more shooters on Wednesdays when the office is open.) So, I arrived one hour before "the start shooting hour" which is 9:30am. I do that to get set up with Chrony so as not to frustrate others who want to get started on time. But, also, this was my first trial of the Caldwell Lead Sled, which required some getting used to.

Everything went quite well, actually, considering I had to adjust the "sled" after each shot.

Rifle: Ruger No.1 Tropical (24") .458 Win Mag with Mag-Na-Porting
Brass: Used Win.
Primer: WLRM
Scope: Nikon ProStaff; 2 - 7 x 32 Shotgun Hunter

Shots in this order:

350 Hor. FT/ 70 grs H4198 @ 2537 FPS (corrected to MV)/5001 ft-lbs * Left over from last year's load. Very accurate -- intended for bear in 2018 but due to medical reasons I didn't hunt in 2018. But was used on Wednesday, April 17/19 as a test to verify POA and MV. It was shooting right on considering I had to make personal adjustments in using the "sled". MV was also close to that of 2018. Just one fired to confirm results of others.

450-Barnes X = three fired using 83 grains H335. The first one was left over from last year that had a slightly longer COL of 3.76". The next two, put together more recently, had a COL of 3.705". Would a difference of .055" matter very much? Yes it did!

The 3.76" load registered 2290 fps + 9 for correction = 2299 fps. The next at 3.705" registered 2376 fps + 9 = 2385 fps/5683 ft-lbs. But notice that the expansion at the head (in front of the belt - but up against it) was .0007" more for the 3.705 load, and the final shot at 3.705" had a near identical head expansion as the other 3.705" load with only .0001" distinction.

I didn't get an instrumental reading on the third shot as a fellow next to me shot his rifle just before I fired and set my Chrony on ERROR -- it happens every time I have someone shooting next to me. I finally had to ask him to wait until I first fired before he did as I had to reset the Chrony each time if he fired just before I did. That's why I usually go to the range before Wednesday's busy times. I went Wednesday because the weather was better.

So, seating a bullet deeper will usually increase pressure, and head expansion -- at least in this case and others tried on the same day.

450 TSX -- two were fired, and again the first was recorded as ERROR, due to the frustration mentioned above. But case head expansion was similar on each. So I assume MV was also similar. The second shot recorded 2316 fps + 11 = 2327 fps.

Note: All 450 grain Barnes X and TSX contained the same load of 83 grains H335. But the COL of the TSX was 3.690", crimped into the bottom cannelure (groove). MV was less than the 450-X at 3.705". 2327 vs 2385. They were not as good (apparently) as 80 grains in 2018 that gave 2342 fps from the 450 X-Bullet seated to 3.715". Conditions were similar. Same brass, primer and powder lot.

So, I'm thinking that 80 - 81 grains of H335 is perhaps best -- more tests coming up sometime after eye surgery on May 9.

Another interesting note (for myself at least) was that head expansion for the 350gr Hor. using 70 grains H4198, and those of the 450gr Barnes X and TSX using 83 grains H335 was slightly more for the 350gr Hornady.

450gr A-Frame. One was fired using an identical load as in the Barnes' 450s - 83 grains H335. Velocity was near identical to the 450 TSX's at 2318 fps + 13 = 2331 fps/5428 ft-lbs. But, NOTE THIS: Case head expansion was LESS than any other bullet or load fired on Wednesday. Significantly less! More testing to come. COL was 3.56".

COL for the single-shot Ruger is mandated by bullet length, and no other factor.

480gr Hornady DGX: I tested this bullet late in 2017 in media along with a number of others fired from my former #1 Ruger .45-70 LT. There was no stopping that bullet - it penetrated everything without expansion, finally impacting a boulder behind the setup leaving a perfect imprint of the front of that bullet! I've yet to find it, but (hopefully) sometime after cataract removal, I'll locate it using my friends metal detector.It buried itself somewhere after impact on the boulder.

My load on Wednesday was:

COL = 3.56"
81 grains H335

Two were fired. One recorded 2260 and the other 2268 fps. Corrected to MV = 2280 fps/5540 ft-lbs avg.

Again, it's interesting to note that the 2268 fps (instrumental) was the only load fired that required the Ruger spring ejector to come into operation. All others, including the 2260 fps load, just "fell" from the chamber. I think that may indicate, what I've long ago learned about .45-70s and .458s, that I'm well off in safety if extreme spread is always less than 10 fps. I want all my handloads in those Big Bores to be very close in spread - preferably less than double digits.

I'm very impressed with that 480gr DGX. In a computer ballistic profile, it could effectively be put to good use on a big bull moose at up to 400 yards with little hold-over. It wouldn't expand at that range but it would pass through both shoulders breaking a lot of bone on the way, still travelling on into thick woods or brush in the process. Then, it could be slowed to about 1200 fps for a "brush load". With its flat tip, it will create a lot of havoc on ANYTHING.

Recoil of the 2280 fps 480gr load isn't great, using the Mag-Na-Ports, and with 5 rounds on the stock, it comes in at a bit more than 10.6 lbs. The load above will generate about 51 ft-lbs. The .340 I used to kill a moose, had a recoil of 54 ft-lbs! Of course, I'm not as young as then... but I'm in the best shape I've been in the last twenty years! Get my eye fixed, and I'm ready to roll!

Bob M.
www.bigbores.ca


"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

 
Posts: 768 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008Reply With Quote
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stradling,
Wonderful homage to the .458 WIN.
Just need to correct your 26 to 25 for the epochal lop-off of 3 inches,
from 25 inches in 1956-1963 (1226 rifles made) to 22-inch barrels in 1964, corrected circa 1990 to 24-inch Classic.
3 inches probably made about a 40 fps difference in MV, from 25" to 22", with the 500- to 510-grain bullets.
Thanks for THE MISSION support.
Page 122! salute
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Bob,

Very interesting that the 450-grain Swift and 450-grain TSX perform so similarly.
That Swift A-Frame is not the sticky wicket it used to be every time I tried them.
With the COL you are using for the 450-grainers you are using no cannelure or groove crimping, I presume.
But we use a bit of Lee Factory Crimp whenever possible, cannelure or no. tu2

You have another goddaughter on the way.
First there was Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ 550 Magnum, now there is Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger No.1.

Your reports of loads are always thoroughly informing, appreciate that.
I always remember to go check your blog
www.bigbores.ca
when you ring THE MISSION bell here.
Thanks.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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RIP;

Thanks for your comments.

I think that the main reason for the improved results from the 450 Swift is that they are .457" rather than a full .458".

I got superb MV from those in my #1 Ruger 45-70 LT at 2317 fps (22") using 76 grains H335. But accuracy wasn't as good as the 500gr Hornady RN int. at 2210 fps. For those I used 75 grains H335.

But, I need to do some more tests for confirmation.

I'm hoping to do some walking of trails in a bear hunt (if all goes well with the cataract thing) sometime in late May - early June. My load will be the 350 Hornady at 2500 + fps or perhaps, maybe, don't know yet, the 480 DGX at about 1780. Will have to work on that. It was beautifully accurate at that speed from my Ruger LT.

The recoil from the 350 Hor load is only 35 ft-lbs.

And, as we all know ? Phil Shoemaker's favorite bullet for "Ole Ugly" is the 450 Swift. I'm not aware that he has published the MV, but his barrel is 21".

Bob
www.bigbores.ca


"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)

 
Posts: 768 | Location: Kawartha Lakes, ONT, Canada | Registered: 21 November 2008Reply With Quote
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That is a very interesting tidbit about the .450-gr Swift NOW being 0.457" diameter.

Swift Reloading Manual Number One(2002)
shows the trio of "458" bullets (400-, 450-, 500-gr) as having a diameter of 0.458",
as are my examples of them from the previous century, measured just now with my dial caliper.

Swift Reloading Manual Number Two(2014)
shows the same trio with 0.457" diameter.
It is official, according to Bob and the Swift manual.

Funny thing is the .458 WIN loading data in Swift#1 is identical to that in Swift#2.
Not re-done with the smaller, less sticky bullet,
so take the old .458 WIN data in Swift#2 with a grain of saltpeter.

Swift#2 does now have data for the .458 Lott that was not in Swift#1.
Presumably this was shot with the new .457"-diameter bullets.

This new Swift data for the .458 Lott should be good for the .458 WIN LongCOL "wildcat" limited to 3.600" COL and using the new .457" bullets.

Of course with that SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber,
you can beat that SWIFT .458 Lott data if you use 3.600" COL limit for the .458 WIN LongCOL loading:
Either higher velocity at same pressure as the .458 Lott,
or same velocity at lower pressure than the .458 Lott, with the .458 WIN LongCOL.
If the bullet allows you to load the .458 WIN LongCOL longer than 3.600" then you beat the SAAMI .458 LOTT by even more. horse

A book review of SWIFT BULLET COMPANY RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER TWO is coming up.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Bob,

Also interesting is the penetration-ability, i.e., EXPANSION-INABILITY of the Hornady .458/480-gr DGX,
in your test medium.

Maybe that little bit of decreased sectional density in the 480-grainer versus the 500-grain DGX is enough to make the difference?
"Sectional density drives expansion when comparing any two bullets (of same construction otherwise) at a given velocity."
Either that, or they are both poor expanders?

Anyway, sectional density drives about everything in ballistics.
Use enough but not too much.
You can get too much of a good thing.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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SWIFT BULLET COMPANY RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER 2 (2014)
Excerpts below are for book review purposes:
Book review good book, except for the part about not re-doing the .458 WIN section
for the new .457"-diameter bullets.

BTW, the blurb "About the Cartridge" is very good except for the part about not mentioning that Jack Lott's first shot at the cape buffalo in 1959 was a bad one.
Effect would have been the same with either a .458 Lott or a .458 WIN.
And of course we all know that if the bullet is long enough, the .458 WIN LongCOL wins any race with the .458 Lott
if both are chambered in the same sort of rifle and loaded to the same pressure. horse

In the case of the Swift A-Frame bullets:
The 400-grainer is too short to be interesting in the .458 WIN LongCOL, .458 Lott does better with the shorties.
With the 450-grainer it is a pretty close race.
With the 500-grainer, the .458 WIN wins easily.

 
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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I would consider the maximum Swift Manual .457/500-grain loads for the .458 Lott (above) to be starting loads for the .458 WIN LongCOL,
as long as the COL allowed is 3.600" for the .458 WIN LongCOL.
A cannelure for solid crimping can be placed on the lower shank of the A-Frame to make that COL functional in a magazine repeater as well as the single-shot.

Note that the .458 Lott data above is for a 1:10" twist, 24" barrel.
Bob's 1:14", 24", ported barrel allows use of greater charge with H335 and the .457/450-grain A-Frame,
and gives higher MV with H335 than shown in the Swift Manual.
Makes sense to me.
AA-2230 might do even better, and has excellent TBI.
tu2
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Posts: 28032 | Location: KY | Registered: 09 December 2001Reply With Quote
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RIP
What if you are one of those poor wretched irredeemable souls who owns a 458 Lott? What about redemption with the in dwelling of the 458 WM throat? Call it the 458 re-reamed redeemed. Or 458 Lottery? The Jack Pot?! 458 Jack Lott-ery
Hallelujah and Amen.


577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375

*we band of 45-70ers* (Founder)
Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder)
 
Posts: 27253 | Location: Where tech companies are trying to control you and brainwash you. | Registered: 29 April 2005Reply With Quote
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boom stick,
Amen.
It is called the ".458 Lott Like Jack Built."
He hand-reamed a SAAMI .458 WIN to take 2.8" brass.
You can get the same result by hand-reaming
a SAAMI .458 Lott with the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum reamer,
thus improving by "coning-up the breech" like
H&H used to do with an obsolete BPE,
to see if could survive full NE loads.
That is gospel. horse
tu2
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