I believe this topic is really to talk about (puma hunt) luckily it is banned in La Pampa, Santiago del Estero, Córdoba and some more provinces, I’m very happy with this decision, because it will protect the hunters and the good outfitters, and let me tell you; I never promise a puma chase because I know that its not possible to hunt this elusive cat in 7 or 10 days the hunter will be here, thanks to that I’ve lost several clients per year.
Well, now let the guys that promised the puma handle with the law and hopefully with a sever punishment.
Bill in the wild from our forum, so a puma that crossed our way in his stay in Argentina, it was a mere chance, and we couldn’t even lift our guns, it vanished!!
Well my friends have a good time and say NO to a canned hunt!!!!!
Willy 1953
www.huntinginargentina.com.ar
www.fishinargentina.com.ar

Many times on this forum, our fellow members asked for a puma hunt down here.

Many times I said the same...if it's guaranteed it's CANNED...so, it's illegal, unethical, and worst of all, when this happens...well we are serving fast-food to the antis crowd.

As Willy said, say NO.

Being a hunter is not easy, and comes with a minimum of responsibility.

Remember, unfortunately some argentine outfitters that,time to time post here, are only interested in MONEY.

And that very fact, fortunately this time was acknowledged by the authorities.

The downside of the situation was they acted upon the request of ANTI-HUNTING groups...that were right on the money.

Thanks to Gus, Alberto, and Lorenzo for the replies.

It is pleasing to see that this action is being taken. Canned hunting is unethical and immoral.
What satisfaction can someone gain by shooting an animal in this fashion? None. But unfortunately there are wealthy individuals who have come into the hunting arena for whom the only goal is the shooting; not the enjoyment of the hunt. And, unfortunately, there have been outfitters ready to accept their money.
For these "hunters" the goal is a so called "trophy" to be taken home and displayed so they can tell their friends about the great dangers they exposed themselves to in the field. For these people I recommend two books (as if that would help).
The Spaniard Jose Ortega y Gassett's work, Meditations on Hunting, and a book by an American author, Jim Posewtiz, called Beyond Fair Chase, the ethics and traditions of hunting. To quote Ortega y Gassett:

"To the sportsman the death of the game is not what interests
him; that is not his purpose. What interests him is everything
that he had to do to achieve that death - that is, the hunt.
Therefore what was before only a means to an end is now an
end in itself. Death is essential because without it there is no
authentic hunting: the killing of the animal is the natural end
of the hunt and that goal of hunting itself, not of the
hunter. The hunter seeks this death because it is no less than
the sign of reality for the whole hunting process. To sum up, one
does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in
order to have hunted."

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
(....)
"To the sportsman the death of the game is not what interests
him; that is not his purpose. What interests him is everything
that he had to do to achieve that death - that is, the hunt.
Therefore what was before only a means to an end is now an
end in itself. Death is essential because without it there is no
authentic hunting: the killing of the animal is the natural end
of the hunt and that goal of hunting itself, not of the
hunter. The hunter seeks this death because it is no less than
the sign of reality for the whole hunting process. To sum up, one
does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in
order to have hunted."

I have always believed those to be the greatest thoughts ever said about the true philosophy of hunting... Actually I have that paragraph hanging among my trophies ...

Another book I strongly reccomend about this line of thoughts is "The bears of Manley" by Mr Sarkis Atamian, in my humble opinion another "must have" book

Unfortunately, not every hunter who participates in canned hunts knows enough to know he's a victim of fraud.

The outfitter certainly doesn't tell him. What happens is the poor bloke is taken on a few wild goose chases before someone arrives, properly panting from phony excitement, to announce that a fresh track or an actual animal was just sighted.

The PH and hunter rush to the site and, sure enough, a puma, bear, lion, leopard, or what have you, gets bumped off a short time later.

The hunter goes home happy, thanking his outfitter, blessing his luck, and thinking all was up and up.

This horrible practice has become an art in South Africa. New laws have been passed to stop it, but it still is to be seen if they will work.

Bill Quimby

Bill, you are absolutely right, and our responsibility is denounce those outfitters as soon as we get notice.

Gustavo,
I have seen Puma while hunting Red Stag in Argentina. The outfitter said they could be shot if I wanted one. They certainly were not canned hunts IMO as they were in open range with no barriers. I didn't shoot one because I have shot and trapped many of them over the years. Can you clearify this for me.

Ray: due to the dirty business (and some political motives not discussed here) discovered at some ranches in La Pampa, that Province forbade days ago the hunting of pumas for the present year. The free ranging animals that you saw during your red stag hunts were entirely shootable, no doubt. A special trophy fee was needed, of course. By the way, I´m glad to see you posting again, I missed your knowledge.
Regards

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Gustavo,
I have seen Puma while hunting Red Stag in Argentina. The outfitter said they could be shot if I wanted one. They certainly were not canned hunts IMO as they were in open range with no barriers. I didn't shoot one because I have shot and trapped many of them over the years. Can you clearify this for me.

Ray, glad to see you here again!

Of course, a Puma as you and many others may have experienced can be seen in the open, just as any other wild game.

But canned puma hunts did occurs in some ranches in La Pampa province as well in Santiago del Estero, in very well known and advertised hunting operations...

It's a not so uncommon practice for some trash outfitters down here. They are in the business for the dollars and when you talk with them about this practice, they came with the obvious answer..." a client who traveled for so long, and paid in advance, do not care about a canned or not puma...they care about the photo and the trophy, they are after some SCI weird diamond or else"

Fortunately in La Pampa they banned the puma hunt for at least a year, and confiscated the skulls. In some cases, there were pictures in the media, of more than 20 taken in a single month!! That's what I call success rate!

Same situation in some private ranchs in the province of Santiago del Estero.

As I said before I feel bad being an argentine hunter after these events. They feed the antis with excellent food.

Regarding your post, I've also seen Puma while after Red Stag in Patagonia, it's not that uncommon if the area is generous in cattle.

quote:

This horrible practice has become an art in South Africa. New laws have been passed to stop it, but it still is to be seen if they will work.

Seloushunter

quote:

Originally posted by mboga biga bwana:

quote:

This horrible practice has become an art in South Africa. New laws have been passed to stop it, but it still is to be seen if they will work.

Seloushunter

Another prehistoric post???

Well, let's add ammo to the fire. SCI, of which I am a life member, and a strong supoprter of, has taken an action that I deem inappropriate.
In the edition of the Safari Times that I
received today, I read that they have decided to allow the entry into the record books of species taken that cannot be imported into the U.S. This includes South American puma.

All this does, in addition to enriching the coffers of the organziation, is to encourage those who have profited by this activity to continue it.

Sr. Bill, I respectfully disagree, but only slightly, however.

SCI is an international organization with members living all over the globe and it makes no sense to not list the trophies of a member whose country allows the importation of a species that was lawfully taken where it was hunted.

The polar bear makes a good example. European and Canadian wildlife scientists set hunting seasons and bag limits as a means of managing their own populations of polar bears. Nonetheless, our Marine Mammal Protection Act prohibits U.S. citizens from importing even a whisker from a polar bear. (I may be wrong, but I think we are the only country with such a limitation for this species.)

By prohibiting us from bringing home animals we have legally hunted under the laws of another country, it tells the world that our government does not trust the scientists of that country or the data they have carefully gathered and studied. This, to me, is arrogance of the highest order.

Worse, it also deprives the other country of the revenue that American hunters might bring to its wildlife management efforts.

In the case of Argentina's and southern Africa's canned cat hunts, I agree that SCI should not accept entries from farms and estancias (even countries) where canned hunts are the norm.

Most of the outfitters who offer canned hunts are either known, or soon will be exposed by hunters living in those areas. It is up to SCI's international members and outfitters to let the SCI Trophy Records Committee know about fraudulent hunts in their areas and demand that these be excluded from the record books.

Bill Quimby

Point well taken. And I will let our Argentine amigos further comment. In this case I thought that Argentina banned the hunting of Puma for the purpose of putting a stop to the canned business. This is a species by species issue, and I agree with you on the polar bear. What is legal and acceptable in the country of origin should not be debased here because of the influence of the greens.