Excuse me if this has been covered before, but I have a question about the asiatic water buffalo. The working buffalo in Asia, and wild stock in Australia have the huge, backswept horns, while the South American seem to all have a shorter, tighter curl. Is this a different species/variety? Just curious.

There is only one species of Asiatic water buffalo, Bubalus bubalus. Here's what naturalist Jack Schwabland wrote about those introduced to South America:

"...Wild water buffaloes were once widespread in southern Asia, but have disappeared from most of their original range, occurring now only in parts of Nepal and northeastern India in greatly reduced numbers, and are listed as endangered. They were domesticated about 4,000 years ago and have been widely introduced outside their natural range. Today an estimated 75 million are found throughout the world in warmer climates, both as domestic and feral animals. There are no biological differences between the wild and domestic varieties, as the genus does not interbreed with domestic cattle. However, the domestic water buffalo may be smaller and have smaller, more tightly curled horns. The water buffaloes introduced to South America are of the domestic type."

Photos of water buffaloes shot by SCI members that I saw when editing the SCI record books from 1983-1999 indicated that the bulls killed on Brazil's Marajo Island resembled the water buffaloes from Australia, with wide, back-sweeping horns. Nearly all of the water buffaloes from Argentina had the tight-curl horns you describe.

Bill Quimby

Great info. Thanks!

I think there is clear genetic difference between the "River" water buffalo and the "Swamp" buffalo.
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/a...88!181195628!8091!-1

And from wikipedia:
"The swamp buffalo is primarily found in the eastern half of Asia and has 48 chromosomes. The river buffalo is mostly found in the western half of Asia (and in Europe and Africa), and has 50 chromosomes. The two types do not readily interbreed, but fertile offspring can occur. Buffalo-cattle hybrids have not been observed to occur, and the embryos of such hybrids do not reach maturity in laboratory experiments.[10]"

Some scientists agree with the one billquimby referred to, but others do not. Since they have a different number of chromosomes, and can not usually produce fertile offspring, I personally think they should be separated.
The River buffalo is also called the Milch buffalo because it is used as a dairy animal to produce milk and cheese. There are numerous breeds or races of Milch buffalo. In Brazil and Argentina, some have gone feral. Owners of buffalo in Argentina must try to vaccinate them, as I understand it. But of course, not even all domestic cattle get vaccinated in some areas.
The wild water buffalo of the Far East is indistinguishable from the swamp buffalo of Australia, I believe. Domesticated swamp buffalo are usually beasts of burden.

cappstick explains the diffrence in one of his books. it like the idea in kenya that there buff are grumpyer than buff

Unleast Im wrong in Argentina We have three races;Mediterráneo, Murrah y Jafarabadi.Imported in 1900 from Marajo -Brazil, Italy and Rumany.
Sub-family Bovide, género Bubalus, Specie bubalus bubalis with 19 races, divides in two groups; 18 = bubalus bubalis sp.(River Buffalo)
and +1 bubalus bubalis (kerebau) Swamp Búffalo.
Some pictures;

Guille,
Good pictures showing the different races/breeds of buffalo in Argentina.

Steve:

Your comments show a case could be made for asking SCI's Trophy Records Committee to separate the buffalo taken on Brazil's Marajo Island years ago from those from most locales in Argentina. The measurements and shape of the horns from each region are vastly different, and those from Argentina should not have to compete with the significantly larger heads taken in Brazil.

However, I don't think what I quoted from the SCI record book is in error. The river and swamp buffaloes apparently are the same species with the same species name, Bubalus bubalus. And, as your material says, although their chromosome count is different, the two subspecies can produce fertile offspring when brought together.

Guillermo:

Your photos are most interesting. The first bull's horns resemble those from Brazil; the second is typical of nearly all of those I saw coming out of Argentina when I worked on the SCI book. The third photo, though, is unique. Are there herds of buffaloes with similar drooping horns, or is this a one-of-a-kind animal?

Incidentally, in the office of the director of South Africa's Kruger National Park, is a mounted head of a Cape buffalo with horns that droop even more than this water buffalo's. In fact, its horns cross below the animal's jaw. I took a photo of it in 1983, and will email it to you. (I don't know how to post it here.)

Bill Quimby

Admittedly, undergrad was a long time ago, and we didn't specifically cover water buffalo (spent a week on bison, though) -- but a different number of chromosomes, should indicate different species... Thinking that they're the same might be some vestiges of the pre-DNA testing era of biology, when species were ID'd more by phenotype than phylogenetic trees.

Guillermo: great pictures.
If I remember well, some time ago someone posted a very informative account of the bubaline races in Argentina.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by billrquimby:
Guillermo:
Your photos are most interesting. The first bull's horns resemble those from Brazil; the second is typical of nearly all of those I saw coming out of Argentina when I worked on the SCI book. The third photo, though, is unique. Are there herds of buffaloes with similar drooping horns, or is this a one-of-a-kind animal?[QUOTE]

Bill; The 3 trophies are from Argentina: 1º)Mediterraneous,2º)Murrah 3º)jafarabadi
Take a look Our friend Dr. Pozzi (Now Hunting with two Africans clients, Buffaloes in Corrientes) with one of this strange appearance jafarabadi bull, I agree that the other two are more common to find here.
The 3 are from same specie Bubalus bubalus with 18 races with 50 chromosomes and 1 (one) with 48 chromosomes (Carabao) considered like a sub-specie.
Steve:Thanks for Your nice comments.
Ricardo;Thanks, Yess I saw it but very difficult to find it, so many post.
Juan with a Jafaradabi trophy
http://www.bufalos.org.ar/

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Admittedly, undergrad was a long time ago, and we didn't specifically cover water buffalo (spent a week on bison, though) -- but a different number of chromosomes, should indicate different species... Thinking that they're the same might be some vestiges of the pre-DNA testing era of biology, when species were ID'd more by phenotype than phylogenetic trees.

Could be, but as long as most taxonomists agree they should share the same species name, amateurs such as I will remain confused.

Bill Quimby

Not sure about all the Bubalis business, but when I look at my buff and compare him to those Guillermo posted, I am convinced it is a 4th species.....Bubalis Tenderloinus.

Mine was a fine hunt, and a wonderful trophy even if not similar to those pictured above.

AND it sure was tasty ....

quote:

Originally posted by Guillermo Amestoy:
Bill You have a PM. Guille.

Did you mean a BM? Thank you I'll check.

[quote]...Mine was a fine hunt, and a wonderful trophy even if not similar to those pictured above......[quote]

Except for "Cabeza con Gusanos".....

Another good excuse to post some picts from past years hunts in Northern Argentina:

2007


2008


2008

Steve;
Wonderfull pictures, Juan talk to Me a lot about Your phisical condition and Hunting skills, very proud of You as Hunter.
Now is hunting in Corrientes with two African clients, I am axious waiting the report and pictures.
Soon He will hunting in Polonia with Don Heat. You take really nice bulls and Pictures as well.Thanks for sharing.Guillermo

Just for comparison sake, here are picts of Australian swamp-buff





Of course, down there you have to watch out for these things:

as usual nice pics Steve. Do you know how hard it is for me to us your name and not you other ID

Steve. Thanks for the fine photos. One of these days I will get back to Australia for a buffalo down there. Your photos speak to a wonderful hunting life. Be well....

Heading down to the good south in Tennessee in August, shame it will be a bit far from you.
Knoxville and Paris....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SGraves155:
Just for comparison sake, here are picts of Australian swamp-buff
Of course, down there you have to watch out for these things:

I just decided right now My next international hunting destination, just to kill one of those giant cocodrile, maybe with a Spear!!! Thanks, Mr. Steve

Guille,
a word on the crocs:
They still can't be "hunted" with a rifle legally. Matt Kelman at Carmor Plains Station gets depredation permits and then must trap the problem crocs. Only the holder of the permit is allowed to shoot the thing even when it is in the trap. Still, if you help haul, bait, and set the trap, it is an interesting experience. And Matt is the only exporter who is able to get the skulls appropriately certified for International shipment.

Thanks Steve !!! I will have to look in others horizons, maybe the dark continent, one of this day I will write You a PM to know about the marvelous destination that You visited and trophy that You hunted.Thanks for sharing,Your are a truly philanthropist.Excelent pictures..... like always. Guille

Juan Pablo, Juan Pablo, where are you?
We wait to hear about the South Africans
And how did they do,
Hunting the buffalo with Payo and you.
And hoping we are, that they shot very well
Let us know with photos if they did excel.

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
Steve. Thanks for the fine photos. One of these days I will get back to Australia for a buffalo down there. Your photos speak to a wonderful hunting life. Be well....

Heading down to the good south in Tennessee in August, shame it will be a bit far from you.
Knoxville and Paris....

Bill, I just moved to the Paris area if you're going to be in this neck of the woods, it would be great to meet you. PM me if you're interested in swapping some stories and downing a cold one or two.

quote:

Originally posted by Shof:

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
Steve. Thanks for the fine photos. One of these days I will get back to Australia for a buffalo down there. Your photos speak to a wonderful hunting life. Be well....

Heading down to the good south in Tennessee in August, shame it will be a bit far from you.
Knoxville and Paris....

Bill, I just moved to the Paris area if you're going to be in this neck of the woods, it would be great to meet you. PM me if you're interested in swapping some stories and downing a cold one or two.

Shof.....wonderful. One of my dear friends moved to Paris about 7 mnths ago, and that was my number two destination; first one is Knoxville. Had to put the trip off until I can find someone to care for my dogs while I am gone. Will keep in touch.

I am headed down for my third trip to Argentina in about three weeks. All of my trips have been for birds, but I am adding big game this year. I hope to get a buff regardless of the name, taxonomy...

I wish you the best.......

Thanks for the pics Guillermo & Steve, those are great!