Well...if I'm picturing it right in my feeble mind it seems to have merit...could you PM a sketch?

I think there is probably design compromise to make the perfect bullet shape to suit most concerns

Maybe I or someone can ship you a few to see how you like them for feeding purposes so a drawing would not be needed.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Duane, I would like your feedback on the 13 degree nose profile with the radius edge. Seems they have not had feeding issues. The radius helps it act like a round nose for feeding purposes. The old Barnes had a sharp edge to a round hybrid. Hunting DG with an off the shelf rifle not tuned by a gunsmith is idiocy. If a hunter has the means to hunt DG he should have the means to hire a top gunsmith like you to give it the working over it needs. I think the BBW #13 profile is an ideal shape for performance and feeding. In an untuned rifle a round nose might have a slight feeding edge but not much I would guess. But why take a rifle to aim at an elephant that has not been shown reliable. It's a moot point to the non Darwin award candidate crowd.

Perfect!

Tons of pics of the BBW#13 profile on the terminal performance thread and on the website www.cuttingedgebullets.com for now till some can get to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Michael: Interesting points and I really can't say you're "wrong" Darned if I can find if I ever said that.

I did not make the quote about feeding issues directly to Mr Wood..but certainly stand behind that quote.

The bottom line is that I DID MAKE THOSE BEER CANS FEED.... as the customer wished!

I do maintain, however, that the chances for a "stumble" with almost square corners are far more likely to occur than with round noses.

That is not rocket science...it's that very principle that freeways are made with sweeping curves instead of corners.

These are just opinions....but in fairness to the client, I will continue to point out the pros and cons of the feeding reliability issue. You see....in a charge, I'd rather he got off a shot with his antiquated,unreliable RN that a jam with his whiz-bang ultra penetrating straight line flat nose.

Want flat noses to feed? ....OK...I revert to rule No 1 " The man wants a blue suit, you turn on the blue lights"

Duane

First off, thanks, while we stand somewhat apart on one issue, in reality not so far as one would think in the end. I am having a great conversation with Mr. Keith Wood (no s added) up on the Terminal Performance thread right now. Please go up and review it, saves me a lot of time repeating much of the same here.

Of course you made the beer cans feed, it's your job to do so, and you are for sure talented enough to make it so! One would have no doubt of that. I am but a shooter, you are the gunsmith, and have that talent!

quote:

Want flat noses to feed? ....OK...I revert to rule No 1 " The man wants a blue suit, you turn on the blue lights"

Now by damned, that's the spirit! I think we have come to a "meeting of the minds" you might say!

I see boomy needs to get some BBW#13s off to you, and that is a great idea. Ya See Duane, all FLAT NOSE BULLETS are not CREATED EQUAL. There are some sorry ass flat nose bullets out there too.

I have most calibers of BBW#13s here, I can probably get your address from your website, what calibers would you like some to take a look at right now? Let me know, I will get them off to you this coming week! Do let me know!

Thanks Duane, good response and well said! I think we can agree to disagree on a few points and still get along just dandy! Appreciated!

Michael

Say...that looks interesting...wouoldn't mind a few 404's

In big bore I just have 470s so maybe michaels 404s will be enough. Let me know if you need some 470s

Duane,

Michael may not have any "micro" bore 375 cal as I bought up most of his supply. I can spare some rat caliber bullets in BBW#13 if you would like. Just let me know where to send them.

Andy

You know...you don't have to bust chops on this...only if convenient... POB 822 Spanaway WA 98387

Duane

No actually it is no issue at all Duane, and in fact I need some assistance and advice as well on a subject concerning bullet design!

Our buddy Mike Jines is sending you some sort of rifle and dummies in 404J. I have no experience in 404 at all. We designed the BBW#13 with a .700 nose projection, above the top band to the flat nose. Seems this might be a little long in the nose, for the 404J and 404J actions? Mike seems to think the nose projection is too long and that a shorter nose projection would work better in 404J. I need to send some of these to you to check out for Mike and myself as well. It might be that we need to shorten that nose projection from .700 to .600 to work better in the various actions one puts 404 in?? If so, that can be done without a problem. I don't really want to go much less than .600 nose projection, as Nose Projection is a factor in depth of penetration, not effected much from .700 to .600, but a nose projection of .450 starts loosing depth by as much as 25%-30% over the longer nose projection!

I will get some things off to you this week to check out.

Thanks Duane!

Michael

Duane,

Some background. I have measured both the .423 Barnes Banded Solids and the CEB BBW#13 Solids.

Barnes:

[From the top edge of the top band to the meplat] .590

[From the bottom edge of the top band (the edge that would sit on top of the brass where you crimp) to the meplat] .655

CEB:

[From the top edge of the top band to the meplat] .700

[From the bottom edge of the top band (the edge that would sit on top of the brass where you crimp) to the meplat] .760

As you can see there is a considerable difference in the exposed portion of the bullet if you crimp at the bottom of the last band on both.

[From Hornady 8th Edition] The max COAL for the .404J is 3.530. The brass max case length is 2.875. With the Barnes, seated at the bottom of the last band, the COAL will be exactly 3.530. With the CEB, seated at the bottom of the last band, the COAL will be 3.635, .105 longer than the COAL. Even at the trim to length of 2.865, the COAL with the CEB bullet will be 3.625, .095 longer than the COAL.

The Barnes feed fine in my .404J Parker Hale. The CEBs are too long to fit in the magazine for the Parker Hale. The dummies I am sending you are loaded with Barnes Banded Solids.

Duane

I sent some .423 samples of BBW#13s out today. Along with I sent some 450 and 480 BBW#13 Solids in .458 caliber as well. Figured you could take a look at those, maybe load some dummies up and see how they work in those "Cheap Ass Rifles" you have to work on from time to time!

Left via USPS today.

Michael

Gentlemen,

Might we go back to the basics for a bit?

I have a 1909 Argie action with a Douglas barrel mounted.

Half moon cut was already done in that one.

If I load three dummies into the action, the first two cycle like greased owl snot. The bottom round appears not to be high enough to be picked up by the bolt. As the bolt moves forward, it depresses the rear cartridge downward causing the nose to rise and block the forward movement of the bolt.

Where to start?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Duane,

Some background. I have measured both the .423 Barnes Banded Solids and the CEB BBW#13 Solids.

Barnes:

[From the top edge of the top band to the meplat] .590

[From the bottom edge of the top band (the edge that would sit on top of the brass where you crimp) to the meplat] .655

CEB:

[From the top edge of the top band to the meplat] .700

[From the bottom edge of the top band (the edge that would sit on top of the brass where you crimp) to the meplat] .760

As you can see there is a considerable difference in the exposed portion of the bullet if you crimp at the bottom of the last band on both.

[From Hornady 8th Edition] The max COAL for the .404J is 3.530. The brass max case length is 2.875. With the Barnes, seated at the bottom of the last band, the COAL will be exactly 3.530. With the CEB, seated at the bottom of the last band, the COAL will be 3.635, .105 longer than the COAL. Even at the trim to length of 2.865, the COAL with the CEB bullet will be 3.625, .095 longer than the COAL.

The Barnes feed fine in my .404J Parker Hale. The CEBs are too long to fit in the magazine for the Parker Hale. The dummies I am sending you are loaded with Barnes Banded Solids.

Mike,

Have you tried seating the CEB BBW#13's to the upper edge of the top band? Or perhaps seated just slightly deeper to crimp just above the band? Then you're only off 0.005" from how you're seating the Barnes BND SLD.

Sam Rose has to seat the CEB bullets in just such a manner in one of his DRs so it isn't a problem with the bullet to do so.

If you seat them in the manner you described, they feed fine. I am leery though of seating the bullets where the crimp is above all the bands. Seems like the crimp should be just below the last band otherwise you risk having recoil drive the bullets in the magazine back down into the case. I think it is a bullet design issue (the bands need to be repositioned) that should be capable of being easily rectified.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Gentlemen,

Might we go back to the basics for a bit?

I have a 1909 Argie action with a Douglas barrel mounted.

Half moon cut was already done in that one.

If I load three dummies into the action, the first two cycle like greased owl snot. The bottom round appears not to be high enough to be picked up by the bolt. As the bolt moves forward, it depresses the rear cartridge downward causing the nose to rise and block the forward movement of the bolt.

Where to start?

To my way of thinking, if it is the last one out of the magazine box, and, if the second and third feed fine, it is a problem with the follower.

Jim,

That's kinda what I was thinking. Maybe the follower should have some metal removed on the face to allow the last round to move across to the left more which would also cause it to be positioned higher.

Right?

Mike,

I understand your .404 Jeffery/Parker Hale COAL issue… Unfortunately if your Parker Hale magazine has an internal length of </= 3.60” in length you will not be able to use the current run of .423 caliber CEB BBW#13 bullets with the case crimped within the upper seating groove...which you obviously know.

To the best of my recollection, seem like it starts around page 189 or so, Michael’s penetration testing lead to the identification of a smooth surface – basically the driving band leading edge to meplat - of approximately 0.700” optimized within-mass straight-line penetration while still allowing the bullet to be seated between the upper two driving bands and the loaded cartridge to fit within the majority of currently available magazines. Your .404 Jeffery/Parker Hale combination is one of the exceptions to this scenario.

Unfortunately the .423 caliber CEB BBW#13s bullets are not CEB standard caliber offerings and will not be unless there is an ongoing volume of business in this caliber. Michael, RIP, and I split the initial special order for the current four .423 caliber BBW#13 bullet weights and all four weights were spec’d for the optimized smooth surface length.

Dan could certainly manufacture .423 caliber CEB BBW#13s bullets with a smooth surface length =/< 0.600” in length…it will unfortunately require an order of 250 bullets per configuration to do so. Should you decide to go with some special order bullets I don’t believe you’ll need to be concerned with their performance and I would recommend that you spec the overall length of the FN Solid to Dan and have him manufacture the HP NonCon the exact same length…and let the actual bullet weights of each fall where they fall. As an FYI, the.500 caliber CEB BBW#13 500gr FN solids and 460gr HP NonCons bullets are manufactured to the same overall length and they have a smooth surface of approximately 0.563” in length…and they perform superbly as constructed (these two bullets were developed and standardized before the optimal smooth surface dimension was identified).

As an alternative, the 380gr .423 caliber NF bullet’s banding configuration should allow you to seat the bullets at a depth to properly work in your Parker Hale rifle. Michael’s testing has indicated that the NF CPS and FPS bullets offer performance right there with the CEB BBW#13 bullets.

Regardless of your choice…50 bullets from NF or CEB are approximately equal in cost.

Good luck with your selection.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Jim,

That's kinda what I was thinking. Maybe the follower should have some metal removed on the face to allow the last round to move across to the left more which would also cause it to be positioned higher.

Right?

I'd think it was most likely the taper on the follower. I assume the cartrige is wider at the neck than the the 7.65x53 the existing follower was designed for. Removing metal from the muzzle end of the follower should help. But if you look at it carefully with one one round in you should see where the follower is touching the brass at the shoulder and not the base. But without seeing it in person it's all just a guess.
Don

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Duane

I sent some .423 samples of BBW#13s out today. Along with I sent some 450 and 480 BBW#13 Solids in .458 caliber as well. Figured you could take a look at those, maybe load some dummies up and see how they work in those "Cheap Ass Rifles" you have to work on from time to time!

Left via USPS today.

Michael

Thank you, Michael...they languished in the post office a bit...Wow! generous...I only need a few, so will send back the majority....Very kind...appreciate it!

Duane

No, don't send any back, you will need for future reference on other things as well. If you make dummies, you know how quick those get roughed up. So keep what I sent and get good use of them.

Michael

Swapped the follower from my 338-06 built on a J.C. Higgins FN Mauser action into the Argie ... and it feeds all .376 rounds (both fmjs and softs) just fine!

Now have to modify the existing follower or replace it so I have one that works with each rifle.

Thanks Guys.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Duane

No, don't send any back, you will need for future reference on other things as well. If you make dummies, you know how quick those get roughed up. So keep what I sent and get good use of them.

Michael

UDAMAN!!!

Any updates on the feeding Duane?
Thanks.

No.....stamping out fires right now...but just "looking"..I think they will be good

Thanks!
I know you have a full plate.

For Duane:

do you have any standard advice for working with the CZ550 magnum?

I have a 416 Rigby CZ 550 sitting in Tanzania that does not feed flatnose solids. As an amateur I would like to take a Dremel to it in the Fall, but would appreciate any guidance that might save me some trouble.

PS: The pictures at the beginning of the thread were quite helpful, but I am not expecting pictures in the answer.


Thank you

Jeez...sorry I overlooked this..No... no standard advice. I make the top one feed, ,but occasionally try with two down, then work on the other side, again occasionally see what's happenilng when you put in a third...etc.

As mentioned before, those flatter nosed bullets tend to start thrir climb up the ramp a litle sooner than a RN.

I SUSPECT you;ll have to selectively widen the rails a little, but, of course, proceed slowly and keep going back to RN's to be sure you don't make a "self ejector"

And don't use a Dremel, it is a sure route to disaster, IMHO

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
And don't use a Dremel, it is a sure route to disaster, IMHO

So how does one do it?

Well....shit...I use a Dremel! (for final tuning)

bump

For those interested, I am putting together a booklet, quite extensive a step by step tutorial for converting 98's.

Thery will be available at DSC show in Januray

Seeya there!

Duane

I would love to have one of your booklet's, autographed even better but unfortunately I will not be attending the DSC show.
Would you be willing to mail me a copy? If so please PM or reply here with a price.
Thanks,

James

will the booklet help with feeding modifications on either Ruger M77/Hawkeye or CZ 550 Magnums?

Of course...I'll sell them...We're getting printing quotes that are all over the map.

The information should be applicable to just about any bolt action of conventional design

I can't wait!

I'm just about to start my first mauser build, I'll definitely be reading that booklet first.

Duane
You might also consider an amazon.com self published e-book -- no printing charges....

I'll buy one, printed or ebook

I gave that some thought..but beilng an old timer (there are a lot of us)...I'd want pagess to turn forth and back..we'll see...but appreciate the advice