Normally, I settle my own business dealings myself and always have, but I have a really sticky problem this time, and I need your collective help.

Six months ago, I made a deal with one of my long-time friends to sell him a very fancy and expensive, new-condition custom bolt-action rifle from my collection. This is a rifle I've never fired and have never done anything with, other than to take out of the safe and admire.

We've been very close for over 28 years, and trust has never been an issue between us. So when we made the deal, my friend told me he was waiting for some investments to cash-out, then he'd pay me for the rifle at the agreed-upon price. On that basis, I told him to take the rifle, and to pay me when he could.

Months go by without payment. Then, my friend called and informed me that he'd taken the rifle to the range, and had shot it. This didn't set right with me, but I said nothing. A few weeks later, my friend called and told me that his anticipated pay-out was not to be forthcoming anytime soon, and that he was going to bring the rifle back. I told he that I understood, and that he was free to do so.
When he brought the rifle back, I took it out of the case, placed it in the safe, and we went on to discuss other things of mutual interest.

The next morning, I went down to examine the rifle, and noticed numerous dings on the stock, as well as one on the blued-steel floorplate. I also noticed that the barrel was not properly cleaned at all. Barrel cleaning is one thing, but those new nicks and dings have seriously devalued my rifle, and this whole episode makes me feel as though I've no only been very stupid, but that my trust has been seriously violated all the way.

Question: Do I march over to my friend's house, tell him face-to-face how totally angry and disillusioned with him I am over all this, or what? If I put it to him in the most explicit terms possible, I'm not sure the friendship will survive, and I'm not sure that I want it to at this point.

What would you do?

AD

I would call him and I would start with the catch phrase:
"Hey FUCKER, what's the deal?"

Then I would tell him how I felt.

If he is truley your friend he will appologize, if he is a true rifle crank and understands how you felt about the rifle.

If he isnt' then he is a moron.

Unfortunately, I've had some of the same - loaning firearms to those I thought had enough sense to take care of them.

The last time, I told him to come back and get it, as he had some work to do. A brief reply, not much more than "ok", I handed it back(he didn't even look me in the eye) - he brought it back a few weeks later(still not as nice as what it was when it left, lesson learned for both of us, I hope) and the friendship continued.

Just my opinion, but it was his unthoughtful actions that placed the friendship in jeopardy...not yours.

If you don’t confront him with it every time you are around him this will be in the back of your mind...and there will always be some amount of tension in the relationship over this unresolved issue.

If this is a “true†friendship it will survive this bump...if it doesn’t then it wasn’t much of a friendship to begin with.

Tough position. As Rick 0311 said, you do need to talk with him about it. At the same time, I think we all realize that many of our friends do not see things the same way we do. When I borrow something from a friend, I feel more responsible for it than if it were mine. When I sell or buy something from/to a friend, its always "cash up front" and and If I am buying, I get what I walk out the door with, good or bad. In this case, I would have to have a talk with him, not in a confrontational manner...if I wanted the friendship to survive....Hard lesson to learn

Sorry for your problem. I am not attempting to be harsh in any way, but, you are the one who made this problem. Like Oki mentioned, when dealing with "friends or family" it has got to be cash on the barrelhead. You did not specify when you told your friend to take the gun-- "don't shoot it until it is paid for". You did not ask before saying he could return it- "is it in the same condition?". My view is that it is a poor situation but you set yourself up for it. Use it as a learning experience and move on.

Allen… you know I like you but… you screwed up, albeit not irreversibly. This is the very thing that ruins strong bonding friendships. You should have never parted with the rifle unless you felt you would never accept it back… even if the payment never materialized. As you know business is business no matter who you are dealing with unless you are willing to face the “trustworthy risksâ€. I have been in similar situations and I just ate crow, my friendship in its totality was worth far more than the argument at hand. I know some of my friends don’t treat their rifles like I treat mine and that’s always a consideration when lending. Either way I hope you can work things out. Just my 2 cents

I will guarantee you that if the situation was reversed this guy would be camped on the other person’s door step and/or ringing their phone off the hook.

I don’t know Alan, but from his many posts it is plain to see that he takes a great deal of pride in his rifles. If this guy has been a “friend†he should be well aware of that, and I would bet that he knew the rifle had never been out of a safe.

Most real friends would at the least ask for permission to take it out and shoot it...and until it was paid for a real friend certainly wouldn’t beat it up.

Allen,

Your concious is going to be your guide on that. First question is you have know this person a long time, how much do you value the friendship. That is the all important question only you can answer.

I am actually very fussy about all my "tools" and many years ago adopted a don't lend them out attitude, guns fall into that category for me.

With the above said, you should say something, and how you play it revolves round the above question. I don't blame you for being annoyed, I would be a little sore about the backing out on the sale, without the damage, not a way I conduct business, and I would have issues with any promise made in the future by this individual. If he had dollar issues after buying it, he should have sat down with you explained the problem with you and worked out some arrangement, not given you the rifle back, even it became a payment related deal. Six months paased before he gave it back and effort on his part with payments would have made this a easier pill for you to swallow.

Clearly I think your friend handled this wrong, and I feel you should bring it up with him. Whether you want to continue the freindship, and the tone you use will probably determine the outcome. Fair would be that he pays for the damage he did, I don't see that as a unreasonble expectation on your part. And I would get it out in the open air, nothing will be resolved if you don't discuss it with him.

It is often said I am as political as a hand gernade, one thing is for certain everyone always knows where the stand in my book, I like straight up, and a handshake in my book is a iron bound contract. The absolute hardest thing to recover once its lost is your word, always been my cread.

Allen

Are the dings beyond "normal" wear marks? If you feel it’s a must, bring it up when the adrenaline level is low. However, I would never ever do business with this friend after such experience. Some of my friends doesn’t share my ideas on rifle care and therefore I don't do pay off deals with friends.

Cheers
/JOHAN

I can't help but agree that you put yourself at risk when you handed over the gun without payment.However that is done and now you need to deal with the present situation.Either he doesn't care for his firearms as well as most of us do, and he doesn't even realize the damage was done or he is aware of the damage and is not as good a friend as you thought.I would certainly talk to him and find out just how good a friend he really is.

Me?

hard one allen..

I would quite calmly expain
"this isn't the end of the world and I would like to talk to you about this. I imagine you had every intention of completing the deal, and I understand some financial things don't work out. It's not, I repeat, not that we didn't complete the deal. It's that the rifle came back, in a lesser condition than we started, and I feel put out. How would you feel?"

this chat will wander around ALOT, but keep coming back to this, until you both realize it was a buggered deal. A good friend, well, there's no real reason for the WORDS to be said "i am sorry, I f'ed up" but the attitude should be there. After all, this investment may have had quite a larger impact than a rifle, and me, as a friend, would be open to understanding that.

If he asks "what can I do to make it up to you?" then he's the buddy you always thought he was. "fair" is probably you offering the rifle to him, on the original terms, and if he can't leverage that, then, if you are set on selling it, tell him that , either.you'll have some smithing to do to remove the marks, or that you'll make a best effort to sell it at ya'll price, BUT there could be a couple dollars difference, and would he make good the difference.

I have (had?) i friend that borrowed a rifle from my wife for his son. The first time, things were great. The second time, the son dropped the rifle a couple times and the friend had taken the sling off. It wasn't QD. When we were packing up to go, he walks over, hands me the dusty, dirty, now stock dinged rifle, and the sling. says "here ya go"... no thanks, no nothing after the boy had taken a trophy ram with it. Nothing..

I told him "<name>, that's not how I loaned you the rifle, would you mind putting it back as it was" ... he got annoyed, was a little brat about putting the sling back on, didn't even wipe the dust off it, and hands it back without a word.

I walk over to the truck, got out my cleaning gear, and proceeded to clean the rifle. He finishing packing up, and is still being a brat (not talking, being pissy in body language, etc)

as he loads up the ram (that I caped out for him), I walk over to him and say "congradulations on yor son getting a ram, and you are welcome for the use of the rifle."

takes about 2 months for him to nut up and appologise... and then asks if he can borrow the rifle again.

I told him "<name>, it took me 2 days to lift the dents and refinish the stock after the last time, I don't think I can help you here"

He went and bought his son a rem 700 youth for the boy to hunt with, and that's the last time I loaned him a rifle.

So, the moral of that story... it may not end pleasantly, but it will come to closure.

jeffe

Allen....

I'm guessing the fact that you brought the issue here likely means you've already decided to not risk the friendship by precipitating a confrontation.

It's surely disappointing that your friend doesn't recognize the value you place on your firearms, and the care to which you give each. Those of us on this forum, who don't have the benefit of a 28-year relationship with you, would at least be cognizant of that fact.......and would likely have treated the rifle and the situation with more care.

Yes....your trust was violated, but probably what hurts most is your friend didn't have the same appreciation for a fine firearm as you did.

Here's hoping both the rifle and the friendship survive the "nicks".

GV

Allen,

A thought that Jeffe's post just triggered. You and I are fussy on our guns, I know when every new scratch, ding or blueing wear appears, on all my guns. I have close to a photographic memory and my rifles and pistols are very categorized in my pointed little head. I have a pistol it took me 5 years to restore properly, three years in active restoration. I know that gun down the smallest details.

A lot of people don't have our focus on these kinds of details, and in their heads don't even radar on the small details like you and I do. My sons are examples, my youngest is learning, every year after hunting I show him what damage he did to his rifle and in the last couple of years has been a lot better. Before he never understood what Dad was bitching about, yes I am teaching them good habits.

Bottom line does your friend even realise he damaged your rifle? You know him, a question I would ask myself before I talked to him, after I cooled down.

Allen -

If you want him to pay for the damage, then you need to tell him that, and his reaction will be your gauge to the strength of your friendship.

If you don't want him to pay for the damages, and you just want to "tell him off" just for the sake of making yourself feel better, then it's not worth it. You are risking 28-years of something for nothing in return but blowing off some steam.

I used to have "friends" that took advantage of me and borrowed VERY costly outdoor gear, returning it damaged or losing it, when I was a poorly paid, young bushworker. In recent years, I have had "friends", one in particular, who tried to bamboozle me out of a couple of quite rare and fairly valuable guns, even though I had offered them the pieces at much less than market prices. I have had phone calls very early on Sunday mornings asking my assistance with gun deals and then had the same individual(s) break their promise to me about selling me a gun I wanted. From this I learned that there are "friends" and there are FRIENDS.

Frankly, I wouldn't speak to someone who did to me what this guy did to you; if, he inquired as to the cause of my sudden reticence, I would explain it ONCE, very bluntly and forcefully and then get him out of my life, period. Real friends do NOT behave this way, IMO, and paying for restoration of your rifle will not change the fact that he cares about your feelings so little as to behave as he has. I learned all of this the hard way in my nearly 60 years and now I do not bother with "friends" no matter how long I have known them.

Allen

I have to disagree with some of the other folks here. But only becasue even though I don't know you I think we all do know you because of the volume and quality of the things you have written here on AR.

You are way way above the suggestion to call the guy and tell him to get f_cked.

Moreover, I think that the other person's breech of your confidence bothers you more than those dings on the rifle, even though those dings do bother you becasue you care about your equipment.

Given the level of sophistication that you operate in with your business (I don't know for sure that you do, but you wouldn't be able to afford the equipment you have unless you had a pretty high level of sophistication) I think you ought to sit it out awhile and wait.

Why? Well, because you yourself already know whether you want this guys friendship or not. The real question is whether he wants to be your friend or not. Let him take awhile to decide. See if he comes around. See if after awhile he calls to talk about the incident. See if he is even aware he damaged your rifle. Find out a bit more about his current personal situation and why he might have backed off on the deal. Wtihin a few months he will tell you whether he values you as a friend by what he does. If he doesn't come around on his own accord to make amends, then you know he wasn't such a good friend after all and you move on with your life and replace him with somebody else.

As for the rifle, yes, you lost a few bucks (or maybe more) in value. But I am betting this won't be the first lesson in your life that cost a few bucks, and it probably won't be the last.

Good luck to you.

Allen,
I have always had the philosophy that if I let a friend take one of my guns then I should be prepared for what may happen. Your situation is different though in that you expected conclusion to the sale. Either way a lot of people would never notice that they ever put a mark on the rifle. It isnt theirs so they dont know it intimately like you would. Your friend may not even notice that he marked up the rifle.

I would invite him over and in a very polite way point out to him what happened to the rifle. If he is a true friend he wil offer to make it right. If not, well then that is up to you. But for me personaly if he was willing to set it right then I would call it good and tell him not to worry about it because he is a good friend and that it was partly your fault for leting him take it without better ground rules. And if he is a good friend he will probably more than make it up in othe ways because that s what friends do.

I truly feel for you being in this situation and wish you the best of luck in resolving it. Please let us know the outcome.

Allen,
There are few people in this world I would loan one of my guns to, and that includes my children, (all adults)! Of that few people most post on this forum, and you are one of them! This is simply because of your posts here, I know how particular you are with your firearms. If a person cared as much for a rifle as I do, then, IMO, he would have one like he is trying to borrow. I agree with most here, any "CUSTOM" rifle sold, should be money, and/or trade up front, before the rifle leaves my hands.

The case you are posting of today, IMO, It would be made very clear to this person, that you are not pleased with this damage on your rifle, and you expected something to be done about it, at his expence. If this is a friendship breaker, then so be it, it was one sided anyway. I would also print this string, and show it to him, or E-mail the whole thing to him, and let him see what the world thinks about the whole thing!

Allen
You could send it back to the maker and send your buddy a copy of the repair bill. A lot of people bank on the offended party not saying anything to avoid a confrontation. Kind of like someone butting in line in front of you. Most people won't say anything. I've got a mouth like a half deaf trucker and usually instantly tell them loud enough for everybody else in line to hear, "hey buddy, take a number just like everyone else here". If they don't take their number, at least everyone behind the jerk in line silently thanks you for your effort and the jerk knows everyone thinks he's a jerk. I know this has nothing to do with yout fine rifle, but if you wait too long say ANYTHING it looses it's effect. Sending him, or casually telling him you're sending him a copy of the REPAIR bill may break the ice??? Maybe he doesn't even know he banged up your rifle.
gunmaker

Allen our joy of rifles is a real deal. Our friends are considered the same. They need our attention all the time and some do not- those that do not are probably considered a waste of time. I believe what you have done was an act of friendship and something you can live with even if you continue with the reprimand towards his actions. Is it the rifle or your friend you value the most? You stepped out on a "act of faith" and should take that into consideration--28yrs is alot of time. Confront him surely and let him pay for damages as you see fit and I am certain things will mend as it should or end. Then let it go.

I don't loan guns to anyone.

But this wasn't a loan. The only thing you did wrong was not get payment up front. You just learned how he treats his equipment. For that one trip to the range, he perceived the gun as his. I would call him and tell him the sale is still on since he damaged it. Tell him to bring over your check, and get his gun.

A.D
a good friend will repect his friends eqipement, and if he screwed up with your eqipement ...your rifle ,he should have had the common decencey to say that , and make it good.
if he has known you for 20 plus years im sure he would have been aware of how you treat your rifles...so why did he return them in a lesser condition ....you cannot tell me that he would not have known about putting a ding or two into the stock.....i would cofront him in a non confrontational manner and take it from there
daniel

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Allen
You could send it back to the maker and send your buddy a copy of the repair bill. A lot of people bank on the offended party not saying anything to avoid a confrontation. Kind of like someone butting in line in front of you. Most people won't say anything. I've got a mouth like a half deaf trucker and usually instantly tell them loud enough for everybody else in line to hear, "hey buddy, take a number just like everyone else here". If they don't take their number, at least everyone behind the jerk in line silently thanks you for your effort and the jerk knows everyone thinks he's a jerk. I know this has nothing to do with yout fine rifle, but if you wait too long say ANYTHING it looses it's effect. Sending him, or casually telling him you're sending him a copy of the REPAIR bill may break the ice??? Maybe he doesn't even know he banged up your rifle.
gunmaker

I told a guy that jumped ahead of me in a line to take a number once and all I got for it was a fist in my face that knocked me to the floor!!!!

Allen: Remember what I've often said here; "You can't unring a bell." For the sake of the 28year relationship, I think you should consider calling him on the phone and describe exactly how you discovered the dings and scratches and see what he says. If he is truly a good friend, he will offer to either buy the rifle regardless, or offer to have it repaired. If that tactic goes "south" then you just very businesslike tell him what you posted originally in that you are not happy about the whole situation and just"fade" away from the friendship. It just doesn't pay to end it in a bad way as that will give him the perfect excuse to say "well since you take that attitude, screw you!" , or words to that effect and thus feel justified in not fixing the problem. I just don't see it any other way my friend. Legally there is just no option, neither is kicking his ass. jorge

Allen that sort of stuff infuriates me and I would say something for sure, if he is a true friend he should pay for the smithing bills to fix up the problem's with the gun.

What a friggin ass-hole is all I have to say..............thats fine if he wants to keep his guns in that knick, but in some respects would you be able to take a new car from the showroom fllor drive it around for x amount of time and return it with a heap of KM's on it and chipped paint work

In 28 years of knowing each other you would think that you would know each other enough to know what to expect.One of my best friends borrowed my favorite rifle for his first trip to africa.It got dinged around and scratched.When he got back he offered to buy me a new one just like mine.This was no safe queen.My rifles are tools that get used.

You on the other hand where selling a safe queen.The fact that you agreed to sell it suggest that it was not that dear to you.The saying "shit happens" is very true.If you are friends of 28 years you two should be able to figure it out.

Maybe you should use some of your own advice?

"Harry, to me, "custom" means CUSTOM. When you enter into a deal with a custom riflemaker, you've entered into a personal service contract, and WWGs needs to honor their end of it.

Here's what I'd do. I'd call them up, complain, and state that the rifle is coming back for revision, as per the original order, and that WWGs was going to pay the shipping both ways to cover that revision. If they were unwilling to agree to that, the rifle was coming back for good, and that WWGs was to issue a refund, including shipping costs.

They sound like unprofessional jackasses to me........

AD"

Give hime a call, work things out. 28 years is a long time down the drain.

A close personal friendship of 28 years is worth more than any custom rifle.

Here's what I'd do:

Call your buddy and say, "Joe, I've got a nice bottle of Pinot from Domaine Drouhin. Why don't you come by on Tuesday evening and let's enjoy it."

Have a nice conversation about the joys of long term friendships.

After the second glass of wine say, "Joe, you've known me long enough to know how I feel about my rifles. So you should know you're one of the few people on the planet I would trust to hold one while I waited for payment."

He'll certainly acknowlege the sentiment.

Then say, "I've noticed that unfired, unmarked rifle I trusted to you didn't come back to me in exactly that same condition. I know you really intended to purchase it and I'm sorry it didn't work out on your end, but how do you think we ought to go about settling things?

He might need some education about how steep the depreciation curve is for the first 1 or 2% of wear on a gun, but I would imagine you'll come to terms before you can finish the Pinot.

Damn Forrest, After reading your post I was reaching for my wallet and I didn't even mess Allen's rifle up. Great advice.

Allen, Best of luck to you. I hope you can resolve this in a diplomatic way so you can keep your friend and get some satisfaction.

Terry

I had a similar situation happen about 20 years ago.

I invited a college friend and his young son to hunt on my deer lease. I didn't know it beforehand but they did not own rifles yet were very keen on the hunt none-the-less. So against my better judgement but wanting to accommodate them I lent them 2 rifles, my pre-64 M-70 given to me by my grandfather and the first custom rifle I built myself. Needless to say, after 2 days the rifles were returned scratched and dinged. I was very put out about the whole thing but kept it to myself.

Since then, whenever I see my old friend he reminds me of that trip and how much it meant to him and his son, so I guess it was worth it.

If that were me, the first thing I'd do...I'd call up my friend and tell him that after examining the rifle and finding the dings and dents..I figure the rifle is worth $ ?? less than before he took it and that you now own a rifle worth ??% less than before he took it. I would definetly tell him a dollar amount right from the start.
Just tell him this, matter of factly,..put the ball in his court and see what happens.........

Hopefully you can work it out and still remain friends..

Allen,

I suspect that even before you take any action, this friendship is damaged by your friend's thoughtlessness.

How much would it cost to repair the damage, or alternatively, how much money would you lose on the sale of the rifle now compared to before he took it?

With that sum of money in mind, is it worth the effort it will take to collect it from him?

Each of us has our own calculus where friendship stops and financial necessity takes over.
A good friend might be worth overlooking $1000.
I know a certain in-law that I would knee-cap for $50.

I don't think we can help you much in this equation since it's so personal.
Sorry it happened to you.

Garrett

Kill the ass Hole !I never loan a gun ! if I sell one up front money! NO PAYMENTS ~ that ass hole is no friend ! he's an aquantance ! Tell him off and feel better.

Ask him to either pay the repair bills or buy the rifle at the agreed upon price...his response will give you a good idea if he values your friendship. Be calm and rational in the confrontation.

Allen,

My thoughts:

First, ask yourself this question: Is our friendship worth the value of this rifle?

If the answer is "yes" put it behind you forget about it and say nothing; you can always get another rifle but true friends are hard to find. Besides, he might just still buy it.

If the answer is "no" then pursue it how you will but the frienship will not survive it.

Just my thoughts FWIW.

I bought my father a new rifle for Christmas last year. He was awfully proud of it and continually pulling it out to show his buddies. A few weeks ago, one of his long time friends asked if he could borrow it for a guy that he works with to use for deer hunting. Grudgingly, he said yes. To make a long story short, the long time friend ended up backing over the rifle with his truck!

I'm sure you and your friend will work things out, but that he didn't come to you first and fess up to the damage will always be at the back of both of your minds.

Pete

The friendship has taken a hit either way. You really can't have much fun with the guy now that the situation is hanging.

The thing is that he may not know of the damage or have looked or if he did he just brushed it off as thats the way it was.

I would call him, in a calm way, and say that it's too bad that the deal did not go thru and you swear that it has dings in it now. Let him take it from there and don't ask for money.

If he offers to make it right then take some nominal amount and call it good.

I have a similar thing going on money I loaned to a guy that had no food to eat. Then he found a house to buy and I lent him thousands. He paid part of it back and never paid the rest. So now I really can't talk to him much about stuff. Say I bought a new gun or he did. Maybe you follow me.

It's not that hard to make friends. Heck, make some new friends. Don't make a big stink out of it as he may help you down the road and on the other hand get it off your chest.

Allen it sounds as though he was more your friend than you his. & with that in mind i would confront him on the gun deal issue.