Not sure this is the same advice you would give, but here is my two cents.

We all have had dealings of a similar nature, guns, cars, boat and etc…….its all the same.

First off friends mean a lot to me, much more than guns.......guns are just guns, they can be fixed they can be replaced in most cases. With that said, you should have made things clear to start with friends or not, that it’s a new custom gun and you really don’t want to find out down the road that money didn’t come or buyers remorse kicked in, or even a wife pitched a fit. If he was truly a good friend you could have told him that.

If the gun meant that much to you to start with you wouldn’t have parted with it to begin with. Now if its badly damaged that’s another story. You have to determine if the damages warrant making an issue out of it, guns can be reblued, barrels can be cleaned and stocks can be fixed in most cases custom or not. He more than likely really wanted the rifle and figured the money would come, he may not have known he even banged the gun up and he may not have realized what it meant to shoot a gun like you probably have and then bring it back.

I would take a similar approach to what Forrest said, I would ask him to come over and look at the gun, we need to talk about it and shoot him straight on what the situation is.

In most cases a good friend will make things right if he can, if he doesn’t have the funds to make things right it is what it is and let him know he screwed you on that deal. If you value his friendship, then drink a beer and forget about it. But by all means, get a read off him of how he feels about the situation………….because that will determine if you need to drink a beer with him in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Allen,

My thoughts:

First, ask yourself this question: Is our friendship worth the value of this rifle?

If the answer is "yes" put it behind you forget about it and say nothing; you can always get another rifle but true friends are hard to find. Besides, he might just still buy it.

If the answer is "no" then pursue it how you will but the frienship will not survive it.

Just my thoughts FWIW.

Well said. My sentiments exactly. If you are willing to possibly sacrifice the friendship, then pursue reparation. If you are not, then I would remain silent but let this experience inform any future transactions with this gentleman.

Regards, Wayne E.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Elmer:

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Allen,

My thoughts:

...... you can always get another rifle but true friends are hard to find.

Just my thoughts FWIW.

Well said. My sentiments exactly. If you are willing to possibly sacrifice the friendship, then pursue reparation. If you are not, then I would remain silent but let this experience inform any future transactions with this gentleman.

Regards, Wayne E.

Yes, but a true friend would not have done this. I can understand the deal falling through, but, as a gentleman and alledged friend, he would have at least offered to cover the damage or tried to work out some way to make good.

It's one thing to damage a loaner rifle, we all have em, and expect such treatment or we wouldn't lend them. This however is different as it was far more expensive than a loaner and as yet unfired! Much the same as if he'd taken an undriven vintage car to the supermarket and got parking lot dings. Very uncooth!

How to resolve it? I don't know but I'd likely try the car analogy on him. Explaining that it lost qiuite a bit of worth by his firing & dinging it.

Hope you r resolve it to your liking Allen.

"The holy passion of Friendship is of so sweet and steady and loyal and enduring a nature that it will last through a whole lifetime, if not asked to lend money."
Mark Twain

Allen. Sorry to hear that. Caveat emptor works both ways.

By taking the rifle back you've pretty much given up any recourse other than hope- that he will do the right thing. Anger will not conquer honor. Tell him why you're upset, and all you can do is hope he does the honorable thing.

This will give you the answer on both your transaction and friendship.

What caliber? Is it one of D'arcy's? PM me I may be interested.

Seems like most folks keep saying "call him up". I think a phone call is the absolute worst way to reconcile a difference. Face to face is the only way. I wouldn't entice him over with a promise of wine and my phone conversation would pretty much consist of "I have some problems with the rifle you were going to buy, what would be a good time for you to come over so we can discuss them." Be satisfied that in all probability, you will lose your friend. If you're not willing to pay that price, then rack it up to experience and say nothing at all to him.

Allen,

Ya know, being one of the "kitchen table gunsmiths" that you have indicated your disdain for in previous posts, I'm quite surprised that you've even asked for advise from the common man, you being (and don't try to deny it) the self proclaimed expert on anything and everything related to the shooting sports. That said, I'd have to say that after 28 years of "friendship", you got fucked. You ain't the first and you won't be the last. There's a first time for everything. The situation sucks . Hopefully you and your friend will come to an amicable agreement.

I have had the same thing happen. I've also sold acquaintances very high dollar double rifles and shotguns at gift prices (less than 10-cents on the dollar) just to make them happy and help them share some of the really good guns which some of us encounter in life...then never heard from them again after they got all my guns they wanted (or thought they could get away with). One veterinarian from Nebraska and Alberta comes particularly to mind... A few never settled up at all, even at 10-cents on the buck. A couple backed out on deals after damaging the guns involved. That took about 50 years of my life to all happen (50 years after my becoming a shooter/gun afficianado, that is). I did slowly learn along the way.

Rightly, or wrongly, this is how I approach it now:

- I don't loan books, guns, high dollar cars, or sentimental value items of any sort (other than those I wouldn't be upset by losing entirely) to ANYONE, anytime, for any reason.

- I do not back out of a business deal that I agreed to in the first place, no matter what it costs me in cash or convenience. The people I deal with MUST do the same, for me to continue to deal with or associate with them.

- I will forgive almost anything a person does, if he/she is straight-forward and honest with me about it. Recently a young fellow got $1,000 from me as an up-front payment for custom work on one of my cars. He did nothing he had been employed to do, but his business folded, and he WAS trying to make it work. He also has 6 kids. He apologized profuesly and promised to pay me back, but I told him to just keep the money, and not worry about it. He has enough pressures with his business collapsed and a wife and 6 kids to feed. It is only money, after all.
However, when anyone intentionally tries to shine me on, I usually will not confront them. I'll just go away...permanently...from ANY relationship with that person.

I believe in some of the old adages. One is, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Another business one is "We'll do okay as long as you don't make the same mistake once". (untrustworthiness, that is).

Honestly Allen, I think your deeper friendship with this person may already be over. I suspect much of what you feel is disappointment with yourself at having misjudged this person you thought shared your values and was your trustworthy friend.

I can't advise you which way to go in this one. I CAN tell you though:
- Think it through.
- Make your own decision about how you will feel best about the whole situation.
-Act in accord with that decision.
- Never look back.
Que sera, sera.

Best wishes & "Bon chance".
-

We have all had experiences with loaning tools, dealing, etc to "friends".

Ive come to the conclusion that my "real" friends all have 4 legs.

I find the comment by "Craigster" to be decidedly tacky; I think that Allen, although he has a forceful and very confident personality and expresses himself in a unique and forthright fashion does NOT denigrate other individuals unless they initiate an attack upon him.

He is obviously, ( I don't know him personally) a rather wealthy chap who has made his money a la "Horatio Alger" and can afford guns/hunting trips that most here can only fantasize about. This sometimes, it appears, leads some others to enjoy his discomfiture or misfortune and they reveal a certain character type by doing so, far less than "kitchen table" in quality.

I find Allen's posts to be really interesting and informative; he is somewhat younger than I am and has a different background, but, he has a great deal of real rifle/hunting experience and this shows in his knowledge level. If, I had his over-all hunting experience, I would probably ignore the bullshit here and make money by writing for magazines.

quote:

would probably ignore the bullshit here

now thats tacky.

Alan,

Is it the rifle damage that bothers you most or the fact that he would do this to you? (for me it would be the latter).

If the answer is the latter then that tells me you care more about your relationship with the person than the rifle, which I think is a good spot to be in with a person. If it is the first then just go over to see him, explain it and ask that he make it right.

If it is the second you still need to talk to him, otherwise it is hanging over your head. Might be that he really didn't notice the damage, how big is it? I am pretty particular about gun stuff but missed a spot of rust (cleaned off easy enough) on the barrel of a 45 auto I bought from my good friend for my uncle. Friend I am sure had no idea, I know him, was there the only time he shot it, and since it cleaned up my uncle wasn't upset. But I missed it. Maybe your friend didn't see it?

HOWEVER, this might just be a difference between my outlook and others, if I were him, and had for some reason chosen to take it before paying you I would not have fired it till I paid you. Once he fired an unfired rifle he bought it in my book. Anything that affects the value. I am sure it being unfired was something you mentioned when talking about selling it to him so he can't claim ignorance. If it were a good friend I wanted to keep a friend I would tell him about the damage and see what he says, if he offers to go through with the deal, repair it etc. you know he cares too and it is worth making it right to him.

To everybody that says alan was in the wrong, I say BS. Although it isn't the best practice, he extended to his friend extra privileges that he wouldn't a normal business associate, and what is friendship if not an extension of privileges (sharing our fire, listening to our problems, drinking our whiskey).

My friend recently moved into a house, he didn't own a gun and wanted one, he said he'd buy my 38 snubnose, I gave him a good deal on it and told him to go ahead and take it. He didn't haev the money on him I told him not to worry. granted he paid me the next day although I didn't set a time on when he needed to, because he was my friend I trusted him. By the same token I bought that 45 for my uncle, he was out of the country at the time, my friend told me to take the gun and pay me whenever my uncle got back. I went ahead and paid him a few days later after I got the cash from the bank for him. deals between friends should work that way, sadly they don't always.

I made a choice at some unremembered point in my life, I'll take a chance on getting burned sometimes for the possible reward of it going the way it should. I think deals should be able to hinge on a handshake and guys should treat each other like they want to be treated. I remember when I was a teenager and we sold my 1965 mustang fastback. My father listed it in the paper starting friday, with a price of 5k. First guy called and said he would take it at that price, would come the following day. My dad then started receiving offers for more money and saying that they wanted the car. He told them all it was sold, he told me that he had made a deal with the other guy and the car was his. I remembered that lesson. I also remember my dad telling me once that there were only 3 things you could count on in life, family, friends and I think what you have in your wallet (I was young ok, can't remember it all) and that if I had 5 guys I could call friend in the end then I was a lucky man. I think about those things when I decide how to handle a situation.

I hope it all works out well.

Red
PS
In a possible attempt to avoid this happening in the future I recommend you sending me each of your rifles in turn to test and document any blemishes or detractors for future reference, then you can make that list available to other perspective buyers.

grizz,

Taken as I wrote it, ...bullshit...in reference to the negative comments made about and to Allen by certain posters here on AR, is not tacky, it is true. However, one can deliberately alter the apparent meaning of almost any phrase, as you attempted to, by taking it out of context; this is as simple as being a gentleman is difficult.

Why don't you loan him your wife for a couple weeks and when he brings her back all scrached up and battered he will probably ask you for money that he spent feeding her ! I ve had to many so called friends use me in the past ! when I needed a favor they could not be found ! Money loaned and never repaid ! gun work never paid for from so called pals , at price of parts only , I'll see you payday ! years ago ! I guess they haven't been paid yet ? I'm damn sick of USERS ! your so called friend is in that catagory !Or he would have bought the rifle as the agreement was made ! He's a USER ! and you have been one hell of a pal to lend him a rifle with the promise of being paid down the road ,if a man's word is worthless,what is he worth ? Think about it !

For all of those who have said "make the guy buy the rifle"

I believe that the great state of Oregon has on their book some form of the Uniform Commerical Code. And if I am correct, that Code states that any sale of goods over a certain value (I think in most states the value is $500.00) requires a written contract in order for that contract to be enforceable. Therefore, given the facts that Allen has laid out (i.e. no written contract) and given that the gun was "expensive" (probably valued in the thousands rather than the hundreds) there is probably no legal enforcement of the contract.

So since there was no contract there was instead what is known as a bailment, which is the delivery of personal property or goods from one person (bailor) to another (bailee) in trust for the execution of a special purpose. Here, the special purpose was in essence an offer by Allen to sell the weapon, but there was no forthcoming acceptance (no manifestation of mutual assent) by the friend.

In such case, most state Appellate courts have said that the Bailee owes a duty to the bailor to take reasonable care of the bailed property.
Reasonable care is usually a question of fact left to a fact finder. Here, if it could be shown that the bailee knew the weapon was unfired and brand new (more than likely he would have to probably admit it in order for Allen to prove it) and if Allen could prove that the marks were not there on the rifle when the bailment took place (testimony by family who knew the condition of the piece at the time of the bailment), then more than likely Allen could get damages in an amount that he could prove by having the maker of the weapon provide testimony as to the cost of repair to make the weapon in as good shape as it was when Allen took delivery of it.

I can certainly relate to just about everyone's perspective on this matter, as well as other related issues.

And Craigster, if I've done something against you in the past, I'd surely like to hear about it, but then maybe you're just taking this opportunity to take a swing at me on general principals.

I like what Forrest had to say. Friendship's worth more than a rifle, and I don't think my friend even knows he dinged it up. He's owned fine rifles and shotguns for most of his adult life, and he surely does know how to care for them properly, even though his execution wasn't all that great this time around.

In most ways, it's a lot easier to resolve such issues with people you don't know as friends. Friendship seldom makes for good business, and this is just one more example of that reality.

The friend in question graduated from college and was married the year I was born, and I have no intention of going off over this matter in the face of a dear friend who is now 70 years old and, although he's tough old bird, he's not in the best of health. I owe him much more than that, even though it's my loss materially.

I think I'll gently let my friend know about those dings. He'd want to know, and I couldn't respect myself if I didn't let him know.

Somehow, these things always manage to work themselves out, I know that much........

AD

Allen,
I think if it were me, I would have to say something to the man. I have been in similar situations and saying nothing just won't allow the situation to pass in your mind, it will always be eating at you. If he is your friend and owns fine guns like you do, he would want to know. The deal falling through is not an issue, it's the damage of the gun that would bother me.

John, I hear what you're saying. I can live with the deal falling through alright, but I guess the part that really bothers me the most is that I feel my trust has sort of been violated on several fronts. With me, a deal is a deal, period....

AD

"I like what Forrest had to say. Friendship's worth more than a rifle, and I don't think my friend even knows he dinged it up."

Allen,

In leau of that sentiment, your best avice has already been given, a bottle of wine, a pint of Irish Whiskey ( or Scotch ) or a cup of Java, sit down with him and get it off your chest. Forrest has this right, best method of settling it.

How bad are the stock nicks? Is it something a steam iron and some elbow grease can remedy? The floorplate might be a little trickier to remedy, worst case it would be pull it off, polish it and drop it back in the blue tank.

If that will remedy the problems, I think I would just speak my mind, fix it and chaulk it up to experience.

In hind sight you did a couple of things wrong, first was done innocently, handing over the rifle with no collateral. Your second big mistake was not inspecting the rifle when he handed it back to you and saying something right then. The problem would have never gotten to this point. Its all pretty much spilled milk at this point, the situation is like it is.

Take Forrest's advice once you have cooled down, chaulk it up to experience, and count your blessings. It could have been family and you could still be chasing the gun down.

Allen,
I agree, a deal is a deal with me too. I believe your first mistake was handing the rifle over to the man without any money changing hands. The second was not looking the rifle over closely before accepting it back from him. I have learned the hard way that it's better for all involved to have it upfront that money needs to be paid before anything changes hands. In the end, we all live and learn. Sometimes we learn more than we bargained for!

Speaking of oral contracts...

"An oral contract ain't worth the paper it's written on." (Samuel Goldwyn, movie maker.)

John, I agree on every point.......

Leanwolff, THAT is a CLASSIC!!

AD

since Leanwolf said that it reminds me, I heard that Clint Eastwoods deal with whichever studio he works with is basically a handshake deal. I was impressed when I heard that. I hat ethat contracts are necessary for things.

Red

The main reason an oral contract is worthless is that they are usually not "witnessed" as to their full terms. With adequate corroboration of the terms, an oral contract is as valid and binding as a written one. If an aggrieved person can prove the content of the contract, and that it was relied upon, with a recognized "consideration" (benefit) to be received by each party, oral contracts are enforceable.

I think ForrestB has it right. A civil conversation is always the best place to start. You can judge how to proceed from there. Remember, hopefully, you will not mourn a rifle when it dies, but you will a friend.

The funny thing, for me, is that now that I think about it, the only person I loan my good rifles to is a 15 year old boy that, when he took it hunting the first time at 13, brought it back to me with one comment....."Thank you! Could you please show me how to clean it the way you like it." He had not even fired it.

Allen,

Good luck. I fall into the camp that would nicely mention the nicks and scratches and your disappointment, then see what develops.

Hard to run it any other way, particularly with a friend who's a generation older. With my father's friends who have become my friends and hunting partners, I wouldn't have dared to examine a rifle they were returning for scratches and damage while they were there returning it, either.

I hope for a peaceful, friendly resolution for you.

Steve

Let is slide. Too many things in US life are already about value and $.

Even the most careful folks age. If you make fuss out of it, even a a "gentle fuss," you may well regret having done so when he's gone...

In the end, it's just a rifle...

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:

I think I'll gently let my friend know about those dings. He'd want to know, and I couldn't respect myself if I didn't let him know.

Somehow, these things always manage to work themselves out, I know that much........

AD

Honor and self-respect are the root of this, but they can drive men to destroy things of great value if not tempered by wisdom. I think "gently" letting your friend know is the wise path, particularly if you follow Forrest's advice. It's unfortunate that it worked out like it did, and you might even be able to restore the deal with the right conversation.

From the little I know of your rifles, they're a serious investment - but 28 years is a more serious investment.

Good luck.


Okie John

Allen,

Your a believer...

Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.


Good friends are hard to come by, and as much as it would bother me as well, if you don't want to confront him, just let it go. No matter what you paid for it, it's still just a rifle.

Hi Allen. First, very sorry to hear about this. I did not read the entire thread as I formed an opinion or two from the original post.

First, what is most important, friendship or rifle?

Second, ever rent a car? You know how you and the rep go out and inspect the car together for dings and such BEFORE YOU RENT? Keep that in mind if you ever do this again.

Personally, I'd say something, and it will brew until you're in your grave if you don't. And, once again, I've had a similar situation happen to me.

A Deacon at my church borrowed a a ladder stand to hunt from. He set it up on my property. 3 months after the season was over, and after I insisted on at least a dozen times for him to retrieve it, he finally went out to get it. But, and as I warned him, it was stolen.

His words will never leave me:

"Man, I drove out there and looked all over for it but it was gone. Guess someone stole it."

I replied, "well, I paid $75 for it at Wiley's Sports and they still have some in stock and they are on sale now."

He finished the conversation with, "oh."

Even after I gave him what I thought was a CLEAR HINT, I never got another stand. I also never spoke to him again.

I ran into his wife at a different hunting store about 3 years later. She asked me where I've been and what the heck happened.

I told her the story and she acted miffed. She'd never been told the story and couldn't believe her husband could have been so shallow. I said it must not bother him too much. I haven't called him, and he obviously hasn't missed our friendship b/c he never tried calling me either.

We also knew each other for years. Hunted together, had fellowship together, etc.

I don't miss him. I don't need thoughtless friends like that.

Your friend, may indeed be clueless about the dings. But I'd sure show them to him. It amazes me how those closest to us may take the most advantage of us.

Good luck.

AD,

If you don't talk to your friend about the situation, it will eat at you for another 28 years. Let him know what you think. If he is a true friend, he will make it right. If not, then you are better off going your own way.

A friend of mine wanted to purchase a custom rifle that I had but said he could not be able to come up with the money for 18 months. I said that was fine, but asked that he put down a 500 dollar deposit on the rifle so that I would know it was sold. My friend got miffed and expressed that he did not want to be locked in to a deal that far in advance. It was a good thing I asked. This fall I had a truck for sale and the same friend asked if I could hold it for him until October of 2006. I told him I would rather not.

As for you rifle, when someone buggers up one of my rifles, I have to get rid of it because the memory of the transgression bothers me. So I would send that rifle back to the maker to be spruced up, then off to http://www.champlinarms.com to be put on consignment.

Good luck with it, and sorry you had to deal with this.

I wouldn't mention it right now because I believe it's all about the money. Even discounting the damages, he knows the depreciation in firing your gun. You said he's strapped for cash. That says it all. It's all about the money.
Chalk it up to experience.

Mr Day,as Babcock said,Matt:18:15.You may have to say somthing to your friend about it.And by doing so with just the 2 of you you may win back the friendship again.
I have been a guest on the forums for some time before joining as a member.I have read some of your posts and your words almost made me go and order a Darcy Echols rifle,even though that would have been a very great expenditure for me. You do have the gift of words.So with careful thought, and words you can probably salvage your friendship,( which you do value very highly).

I find it "real" hard to reply to this type of situation. First and formost, what is the friendship worth? It's plane to see that your friend doesn't place the same values on your guns as you do. Or, maybe he was not aware that he damaged the rifle? In your eyes, yes. In his??(everything can be replaced!) Except family and friends!
Had a friend that I flew and built model airplanes with. Had one that I had over 3 weeks time in building. He crashed it and broke it into a million pieces.(real bad) His health went down hill. I brought him home from the hospital the day before he died. Screw the airplane. I wish I had my friend back!
Does your friendship have a price tag on it?? Is the damage to your rifle worth the friendship? Either bring it to his attention or forget it. Tough call. JMHO!!

Interesting thread. It reminds me of the psychology test volunteer jobs I had to take in college as an impoverished student - the situations were designed to see my reactions, not really to gather my solutions.

Clearly that's not the case here. To my mind, you captured the essential data when you said he was a "friend for 28 years." I don't know what the cost to repair your rifle might be - call it $1,000 for sake of argument. If your friend had asked you for $1,000 - would you have given it to him, knowing there was a chance you'd never see it again? I certainly have friends like that. It means the friendship is worth more to you than the money.

Also, if the friend at age 70 had to disappoint you over money that didn't appear when promised, perhaps now isn't the time to confront him over financial or friendship-breaking issues.

If you can forget it, do so; if you can't, then you'll have to discuss it with him. I don't think I'd present him a bill, however, for repairs to either rifle or friendship.

Jaywalker

If he was/is a true friend he should have already came forward and offered some type of compensation.
I sold a friend a deer blind for a lot less than it cost me. He told me he would pay me within a week. After a year went by I asked him if he still wanted to keep it please pay me. If not then return it. He finally paid but our friendship ended.
Think back about all your relationships with him. Is this the first time you experienced mis-giving with him. If the answer is yes sacrifice the dinged gun and put it behind you. If the answer is no, how important is this relationship to you!

I deal with my best friend when money is changing hands all of the time. He's my taxidermist. I make certain that I pay full price and pay as much as I can up front (he likes a bit of a paycheck upon completion). I try to never put him in a compromising position.

That said however, no material object is worth any true friendship.

Chuck

allen day:

I consider guns to be tools. My daddy always said don't loan your girlfriend or your chainsaw to your best friend. He will throw a rod in either one.

First, your friend has taken advantage of you. You need to determine if you want him to continue being your friend. If you can prove the gun was unfired, and in pristine condition I would have it appraised in its current condition. I would then have the appraiser give you a valuation when it was in unfired pristine condition. I would send your friend a certified R/R letter spelling out your concerns and a bill for the difference in valuation of the gun. Then you have made a legal notification and have it on record. If it is less than $1,000.00 you will have to take him to small claims court. It may not be worth the effort. You might tell your friend to get lost and that he should forever be looking over his shoulder.
Longshot

I don't think this is about the money at all.

I think it is about whether you can trust and rely on your friend or not. (In other words, whether he really IS a friend or not.)

If, in your appraisal, he did not know about the damage, or is fiscally unable to pay you for the repair and hence didn't mention the damage out of embarrassment, that is one thing. In that case. you may be able to help your friend out by discussing it with him.

On the other hand, if your assessment is that for whatever reason(s) he just doesn't care enough to be straight up with you, that tells you all you need to know. In that instance he is NOT a friend, just a long-term aquaintance.

Your call.

Allen
If he is a good friend of long standing, I would let it slide.
If you are sure his intentions were good, let it slide.
Some people can hunt with a gun for 20 years and never even scratch it. Some people cannot even pick one up with out dinging it up.
It is not worth a good friendship over a few dings.