After a long period of inactivity I thought that I'd better get on here and try to give everyone out there an idea of what is going on with the Montana Rifle Company.

First we would like to say thank you to all of our customers past and present for their support and honesty. Without your support our company would have gone to the wayside like many others before us.

We understand that there are a lot of questions out there regarding the company and our actions. I also know that there are a lot of customers who are at this time not very happy with us. Believe me when I say this but both I and Jon F are working our butts off to try to satisfy everyone’s needs.

We have caught a lot of flack (and that is putting it mildly) and deservedly so about our anticipated delivery dates. We realize that there are a lot of individuals out there that have put a lot of time and energy, not to mention money out there in creating their ideal hunting rifle. There are also those who have ordered actions or barreled actions for that once in a lifetime hunt just to be disappointed because their product won't arrive on time. We definitely feel your pain. It has affected us more than anyone will ever know.

So here goes and please don't take absolutely everything I say as "set in stone" as far as delivery dates, etc.

Many are aware of this but there may be some that are not. We dropped our previous machining company due to a couple of different reasons. First and foremost the quality was not where we wanted it to be and was costing us thousands of dollars each and every time we received a shipment from them. Second, when we approached them about fixing these problems, tightening up the tolerances their price for the machining nearly tripled. We couldn't swallow this price increase and did not expect that our customers would like to either, so we made the change. Currently the machining company that does our bolts and receivers is doing a phenomenal job. The tolerances are darn near perfect and the scrap rate is at an all time low. Delivery is not as quick but I will sacrifice speed for quality any time.

Short Chrome Moly Right Handed Actions are currently being assembled and shipped.

Short Chrome Moly Left Handed Actions are currently backordered and with any luck should be available before the end of the year.

Short Stainless Steel Right Hand Actions are currently in the machine shop and should be in our shop by mid-September.

Short Stainless Steel Left Hand Actions are also backordered as with all of our left handed actions. Hopefully we will have them by the end of this year.

Long Chrome Moly Right Hand Actions are in house now and are being assembled as we speak. We should start shipping them in earnest within the next 2 weeks.

Long Chrome Moly Left Hand Actions are backordered along with all of our left hands. Again we hope to have them in stock before the end of the year.

Long Stainless Steel Right Hand Actions are in house right now and are being assembled. We are missing some parts but are currently working on machining them in house. We should, if everything goes right, start shipping those in earnest within the next 3-4 weeks.

Long Stainless Left Hand Actions. Same as the rest of the left hands.

Now anyone working in manufacturing knows that all it takes is one broken tool to throw you completely off of schedule so the dates I placed above are only "ESTIMATES".

There have also been some issues with quality. First and foremost this is a gunsmith action and to be finished into a work of art will require some work by your gunsmith. Each and every action is squared and the raceways and lugs are lapped before it goes out of here. There have also been some other issues not related to safety that we have addressed and are correcting now.

The company is not going out of business as many have asked us. There are just things that have happened like the machining company change, delays by vendors in delivery, and other things that have affected our delivery of actions. These things are being corrected but will take some time to work out all of the bugs.

We appreciate your continued patience and if you have any questions please email me at mtrifle@montanarifleman.com and I'll try to answer them as honestly as possible. At this time I do not plan on doing any follow-up on this post but will drop in occasionally to read what everyone is saying. Again if you have questions please email me directly.

As a side note, Brian, the owner of both the Montana Rifleman and the Montana Rifle Company is looking at retiring within the next 2-3 years and is looking at selling one or both companies. He is looking at high 6 figures for the Montana Rifle Company and the low 7 figures for the Montana Rifleman. If you have a serious interest in either or both companies give Brian a call or email him at brian1@montanarifleman.com. Please, serious/qualified buyers only.

Best Regards,

Dan
Montana Rifle Co.

I have a couple of PH actions on order. Looks like they've updated website as well and that we've hit the 400 order mark.


Andy

Dan:

Thanks for the update.

I too have a PH action on order with you guys. Do you have a new estimated date for these actions?

Dan, thanks for taking time out to give us an update. I understand problems come up sometimes that do not have a simple, quick solution. Hang in there, things will get better with time.

MKane160

P.S., Dan, I love my .375 Taylor on your M1999 action....

I wasn't going to reply to any of the messages but thought I would try to make sure on the PH actions that the 400 number was understood.

The owner has stated that he will start the Right Handed PH actions once 400 RH actions are sold. The left hands are quite a ways farther out.

Same thing goes on the mini actions until 1000 RH mini's are sold they won't start them.

It is impossible for me to "guestimate" when the PH will be started as it has taken 2+ years to get to 300+ RH's sold.

so does that mean I could still get in an order for a RH model PH?

dan, so how many more right hand actions are needed. i am trying to get more people here to buy them and if i have an accurate count it will help sell more. thanks for your help and honesty and keeping us in the loop

quote:

Originally posted by Lfaler:
so does that mean I could still get in an order for a RH model PH?

When I ordered mine Dan just had me send an email with my name, address, phone number, and what action I wanted to:

jon@montanarifleman.com

Now that he has clarified the 400 number it looks like from their website that the count is 333 RH actions and 86 LH, which means there are 67 more RHs to go. The charter issue price of $525 holds until they get to 400.

I am curious as to why the number on the mini is so much higher before production will start. PH action starts producion after 400 are sold, the mini only after 1000. That is a large difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan@Montana Rifle Co:
I wasn't going to reply to any of the messages but thought I would try to make sure on the PH actions that the 400 number was understood.

The owner has stated that he will start the Right Handed PH actions once 400 RH actions are sold. The left hands are quite a ways farther out.

Same thing goes on the mini actions until 1000 RH mini's are sold they won't start them.

It is impossible for me to "guestimate" when the PH will be started as it has taken 2+ years to get to 300+ RH's sold.

A woman doesn't buy a new red dress without looking at the fabric, the style, and trying it on. I don't buy my cars without taking them for a test drive. I just dont understand this type of marketing. in every business I have ever been involved in that involved selling somehting, the biggest sales aid was showing the thing itself. Make the actions. They will sell.

quote:

Make the actions. They will sell.

22, If you're so sure of this I suggest you make them and keep the profits for your own personal means!

I truly understand the need for committed orders before spending the heavy investment in tooling to produce these actions.

quote:

Originally posted by duikerman:
I truly understand the need for committed orders before spending the heavy investment in tooling to produce these actions.

And they're not requiring deposits or up front payment, you pay when they ship it. Not a bad deal to me.

I just sent Jon off an email to put me down for another RH PH action, that leaves by my count 66 to go.

Come on guys let's get to 400 and get production on these things started.

Andy

Tomorrow morning, first thing, I am going to ask my wife if she will give me the money to buy both these outfits.

Dan,
no offense, but update the Quantity booked.

just keep everything updated.. say, once a week or once a month at the latest, update it.. takes about 90 seconds

iirc, last month is said dec 06, then it says May 07 in big letters, then way down at the end it says late 07....

pick one?
jeffe

quote:

Each and every action is squared and the raceways and lugs are lapped before it goes out of here.

Best Regards,

Dan
Montana Rifle Co.

Has this always been the case? I have two of the charter SS short actions and the raceways are very rough, the bolts sometimes binds. I'll be stoning them myself but I was wondering if this has changed with the current manufacture?


Thanks, Rob

I too have a large stainless right hand action on order and would like confirmation that my order has been received. I am really stoked about this. Thanks for the update and if all else fails I will call. A simple reply is all I need.

quote:

And they're not requiring deposits or up front payment, you pay when they ship it. Not a bad deal to me.

That was not my understanding. If memory serves me, when the 400 is reached you will be charged half the cost and the remainder on completion. At one time on this forum, the said that they were looking at changing the structure to require a payment at some time before the 400 was reached and that they were going to be contacting each and every person who signed up. I was never contacted and assumed they dropped that change.

quote:

Originally posted by duikerman:

quote:

Make the actions. They will sell.

22, If you're so sure of this I suggest you make them and keep the profits for your own personal means!

I truly understand the need for committed orders before spending the heavy investment in tooling to produce these actions.

If every business in America (and for that matter the world) worked this way, there wouldn't be much business.

And, from the looks of it, there isn't much heavy tooling invested in. They have the machinery to design the molds. Looks like quite a bit of what is done is done off site.

Digging into my memory from business school days I would have to guess that one of the main problems here is undercapitalization, e.g. the inability to finance inventory.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:

quote:

And they're not requiring deposits or up front payment, you pay when they ship it. Not a bad deal to me.

That was not my understanding. If memory serves me, when the 400 is reached you will be charged half the cost and the remainder on completion. At one time on this forum, the said that they were looking at changing the structure to require a payment at some time before the 400 was reached and that they were going to be contacting each and every person who signed up. I was never contacted and assumed they dropped that change.

Chic,

The following is the text of an email that I received from Dan Wynne at MRC when I inquired about ordering.

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

Andy,

Forward your order to jon@montanarifleman.com and he'll put you on the
list. Include your name, address and phone number. There are no deposits
required so you don't have to pay until they are actually ready to ship.

Dna



----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Drook" <adrook@netzero.net>
To: <mtrifle@montanarifleman.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 11:21 AM
Subject: Montanarifleman.com Contact Form Submission


> Below is the result from your online Contact form:SUBMIT DATE:8/9/2006
> 11:21:34 AMNAME: Andy Drook EMAIL:
> adrook@netzero.netOTHER INFORMATION:What is the procedure for getting on
> the list to buy one of your PH actions? Do you pay for it upfront, pay a

> deposit, or pay after they are produced.
>
> Thanks,
> Andy--End of Request

Thanks for that reply.

quote:

Digging into my memory from business school days I would have to guess that one of the main problems here is undercapitalization, e.g. the inability to finance inventory.

That is part of it but if you want to get technical is has to do with risk, cash management, and allocation of capital. If they require nothing down and just produce they allocate a significant amount of capital to the materials and tools for the actions with a huge downside risk if nobody buys them and no potential to recover their investment. By taking commitments up front and requiring half down, they finance a majority of the raw materials and tooling and then recover the rest of their investment on the back end upon deliver. Takes a lot of the risk out of the equation and frees up cash to run other parts of the business, make payroll, and keep the lights turned on.

At least the guy has the integrity to get on here and be honest about what is going on...truly rare in today's world.

Okay, the numbers of PH's & Mini Actions pre-sold have been updated on our website. The number of right hand PH's is 363 sold.

Please be aware that even after we get the 400 sold it will still take about a year to get them out to the customers. Why? I have been through the process of each and every action we have manufactured and I can tell you as well as many of our customers can tell you that it takes time. The "estimate" by the toolmaker for the molds is 26 weeks. I can tell you for a fact that it is more like 42 weeks and even after that there is always proofing the molds, testing, etc etc etc. I'm not trying to put this out there longer but which would you rather have? Me telling you 26 weeks and it turns out to be 52 or me telling you 52 and it turns out to be 36?

We will not be taking any money on these actions until they are ready to ship. We had considered doing some creative financing on this but decided against it. We had previously taken money on the short actions and the left hands and that came back and bit us it the butt hard, we won't make that mistake again. As to the cost, let me say that it is in excess of $100,000 to get all the tooling in place.

Pegleg you'll have to email me with your name to confirm your order.

RecoilRob about 7 months ago we started lapping the raceways, lapping the lugs and ensuring that the receiver face & bolt face were square. If you got the charter issue receivers we were not doing that at that time. If you don't mind paying shipping send them back to us and we'll go through them for you free of charge.

Jeffe thank you for pointing out the conflicting dates. I missed the one at the top of the page in our website.

22WRF I agree, if we had them in hand right now I probably couldn't keep inventory on hand, that is how popular I think both the mini and the PH will be. But the cost of doing it makes it difficult for the owner to go spend more than a hundred thousand dollars without knowing that the sales are there.

Howard the reason that the mini number is higher than the PH number is the selling price. The mini action's charter price is $350 compared to $525 for the PH. It's all a $$ thing.

Did I miss anything???


Dan

quote:

By taking commitments up front and requiring half down, they finance a majority of the raw materials and tooling and then recover the rest of their investment on the back end upon deliver

With all due respect to MRC....

Thats just it - as I understand it - they aren't asking for 1/2 down. I think most would understand a deposit when placing an order. If that 1/2 shot of $$ could infuse some speed into production - I think most would comply and happily.

I never had to wait for burgerking to get orders for 6 whoppers before they made mine either...

Not knocking the company and I applaud them for comming out and giving the update but I can not consider them as a project now - it's a gunsmith action - meaning it needs some work - ok I understand but I can also go and buy any number of Win M70 actions TODAY and work on it TODAY. I would like to see MRC succeed and I hope they do but if not requiring 1/2 down at time of order is keeping them from having the money to produce the product - maybe it's time to re-evaluate that policy?

Dan - that 100k in tooling - is there any reason to believe you can not sell the product to cover that? If not - wouldn't taking the 1/2 a deposit to help you get that tooling up and running help you get ahead as I know people are put off by the wait time. You may be missing orders because of that.

Loonie thank you for your question. The boss has stressed to us in no uncertain terms "I will NOT use the customers money to make the tooling". He's the boss and it's his rule. I edited this message as it didn't come out right after I read it. The main reason is that when we did the short and left hands we did take money from the customers and because of production delays it really came back to bite us. And believe it or not that decision still affects us today. It was a good idea at the time but turned out not to be so good. We ended up basically shipping out the product without anything but maybe a few shipping dollars going into the bank at the end. It is difficult to operate without money coming in. We are trying to be careful in this one so that when it is ready we are receiving the full benefits from it. I know we are losing sales but we have no other alternative.

Dan

Thanks Dan -- thats fair - I appreciate it.

Well gee.....this is all great news. I received by barreled action only a month late which was ok. But now it is back at your company because it would not feed or eject because the incorrect bolt stop was installed and who knows what else.
I was told the barreled actions were checked for feed and functioning before they departed the factory. I had to ship it back at my expense and then ship dummy rounds to confirm the feeding is ok.
I have not yet received the barreled action back to confirm it is now ok.

My point of this posting is most of us do not mind minor delays as long as the dang things work! I hope you improve your quality control because I really like your actions and would like to buy a few more. But dude, they gotta work.

Snowwolfe,

Your rifle has shipped back to you. Unfortunately it did have the wrong ejector in it, why it went out that way is anyones guess. There is absolutely no excuse for it at all and the assemblers/gunsmiths have been cautioned to be more careful. The feeding was checked and it fed perfectly time after time in our shop without any modifications.

Dan

Let me get this straight.
We think we can sell a whole bunch of actions but we aren't going to make any unless we have commitments for 400 of them. But the commitments are not binding commitments because we aren't taking any money down on them. And we have production problems that involve a lot of time. But we can't get started becasue we don't know if we will sell any actions.

More debt may not be the answer. Sounds like its time to sell a little stock in the company to get an infusion of cash to work with to finance some inventory. Nothing is worse in the world of sales than having a customer come in and want to buy something and you don't have it available for sale. What do you think showroom floors and runways and market days are for. To show the "PRODUCT" to people that want to buy it, in many cases even before they know they want to buy it!

A good, available product creates its own demand.

Dan,

I know that you hadn't planned on following up on your initial post but thanks for taking the time to do so anyway, the clarifications and answered questions have been most helpful. I'll leave you alone now and let you get back to building actions.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Dan@Montana Rifle Co:
Snowwolfe,

Your rifle has shipped back to you. Unfortunately it did have the wrong ejector in it, why it went out that way is anyones guess. There is absolutely no excuse for it at all and the assemblers/gunsmiths have been cautioned to be more careful. The feeding was checked and it fed perfectly time after time in our shop without any modifications.

Dan

I will report my expereinces here after I receive the action back. Still doesnt sit well with me I had to pay for shipping ($25) when the incorrect part(s) were installed at the factory and it was obviously not checked for feeding or ejecting before it was shipped to my dealer.
I wish your company well as you fill a much needed gap for us left handers.

22WRF, point well taken but unfortunately that won't change the bosses mind. We completely understand that by the time that these actions are ready to ship there will be those that will either back out or cancel completely. We also realize that by the time these actions are ready we will probably lose somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15% of the commitments to purchase, even then the other 85-90% who stuck with it and pay for them at the end will pay for the tooling and such. And the other 10-15% of the cancelled actions will be sold within days, maybe weeks of being available. Those individuals who have given us their non-binding commitments for these actions have been made aware at the time of ordering of the number that we wanted to reach before production and the time that may be involved in getting it. Many of them if not all have accepted this as getting a Pro Hunter action that would cost $1200 to $1500 by any other company for $525 may be well worth the wait.
Again thank you for your input and I'll forward it on to the powers that be.

Dan

Snowwolfe,

I understand your frustration. I did not personally speak with you when you originally had the problems before you shipped it back. But from what I understand from what I was told it sounded exactly like an ejector problem. Did the salesman not offer to send up the ejector and bolt stop free of charge? If not he should have.

Dan

Dan:

I'm glad you went against your initial post to not come back and answer questions/responses in this thread.

Having a company's rep take the time to address questions is very good for business.

You should come here more often as there a lot of guys talking about your actions.

I have my PH action on order.

"RecoilRob about 7 months ago we started lapping the raceways, lapping the lugs and ensuring that the receiver face & bolt face were square. If you got the charter issue receivers we were not doing that at that time. If you don't mind paying shipping send them back to us and we'll go through them for you free of charge."

When was the last time that Remington, the late Winchester, Ruger, or ANYBODY ELSE offered to lap their lugs and raceways and square the boltface for the COST OF SHIPPING THE ACTION BACK TO THE FACTORY???!!!!!

If y'all can't see that MRC is trying DAMN HARD to do the right thing here, then you must just want to have something to piss and moan about!

Carry on, Dan....

MKane160

Dan:

I bought one of your stainless short magnum actions last summer. I stocked it in a McMillian Supergrade and barreled it with a 24", Kreiger #2 taper 308, 5R, 1:10 chambered in 300WSM. With exception to having to work on the safety, I found the action to be very easy to work with. The completed gun shot 180 Grain Federal Fusion factory loads .5 at 100 yards. It has been used on several whitetails and black bears this past year. I have wanted to buy several more of your actions to build rifles for customers. I especially would like to have some Mini actions. I wish you great success in getting your manufacturing problem under control.

Have you considered contacting Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool and Gauge. They are doing bottom metal for a lot of folks and their work is very reasonable and top notch. He knows the gun business.
Laongshot

dan,

since you have a good number already, can you decide a manufacturing date for the right hand p.h. actions and announce it?

since you need only about 35 more actions to go if you announce a manufacture date the rest will be gobbled up quick by the guys who think it is going to be manufactured a year or two from now. it will stimulate sales and exite us who have them on order and we can start saving up for the actions themselves or the other project building expenses. "create buzz and they will come (buy)"

it takes some lead time on your part too to tool up and get things going. it will be good for everyone to see some movement here.

may i suggest start in the manufacturing them soon so we can justify it as a christmas present to ourselves to have some cover for those with average incomes and wives

thanks.

quote:

When was the last time that Remington, the late Winchester, Ruger, or ANYBODY ELSE offered to lap their lugs and raceways and square the boltface for the COST OF SHIPPING THE ACTION BACK TO THE FACTORY???!!!!!

For 525 I can get a remchester and sell off the stock and barrel to pay the gunsmith installing the barrel to do it and have it TODAY. The gunsmith is going to go over the action regarless of how perfect we are told they are - after all if it don't shoot - who is going to catch the flack?

Sending the action back is a non plus in my book. Chance of thieves at the local UPS plus additional down time.

Nope -- IMO the best "marketing" would be to get ahead so a guy ain't watiting until someone else orders so they can get theirs.

I understand Dan is not the boss and he don't make the rules - but maybe he can impress on the boss that this road might not neccessarily be the right one.

I like the action and everything - just not the wait times.