Ok, guys. Here's a link to the Anch. Daily News story following up on the caribou slaughter last summer. Looks like they're gonna prosecute. As I've written before, we Alaskans don't "cotton" to wanton waste.

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska...al/story/725368.html

Sure hope they catch all of 'em.
Bear in Fairbanks

Considering the average native Alaskans disregard for wildlife laws it is nice to see that they will finally be brought to justice.

What is amazing is that the State Troopers didn't pussy foot this one around, and what is more amazing is the DA and the local Judge are hearing the case. Sportsmen groups must have done some leaning on the Troopers to get them going. They usually suck at enforcing game laws in the bush.

Native goverments and elder councels do a really shitty job of handling affairs in their village. It is nice to see that they are not going to be allowed to do that.

I have lived in Barrow I know how they do things on the slope.

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
Considering the average native Alaskans disregard for wildlife laws it is nice to see that they will finally be brought to justice.

What is amazing is that the State Troopers didn't pussy foot this one around, and what is more amazing is the DA and the local Judge are hearing the case. Sportsmen groups must have done some leaning on the Troopers to get them going. They usually suck at enforcing game laws in the bush.

Native goverments and elder councels do a really shitty job of handling affairs in their village. It is nice to see that they are not going to be allowed to do that.

I have lived in Barrow I know how they do things on the slope.

D99,
+1
We agree on this. In general, white sportsmen now have more reverence for their game animals than any native population does.

In General I would agree with you Steve, but I know a lot of asshole hunters in America and the rest of the world too.

This same thing happened with norwhales in Greenland and Nunamut (Arctic Quebec) a few years ago. I don't think the Canadian goverment prosecuted anyone.

What a Joke! Caribou Die off? Misdemeanor ? The state of Alaska waits 6 months to file charges?
Best of all they filed the case in Kotzebue, you know the town were the mayor hunts ducks with lead, no plug,no license and over limit!

Tell me if a white out of state hunter killed 100-150 caribou would he be charged with a Misdemeanor?
Total JOKE!

Rob,

I would have to look up Alaska game statues, but even 100-150 caribou would not qualify as a felony would it?

You are probably right D99 but I think the point is that if a "whitey" especially from the lower 48 pulled that stunt he would be behind bars awaiting trial instaed of this lengthy BS, I hope they take this serious but I have my doubts, I'm sure it will be plea bargained away.

Hell, I'm surprised they pushed this far.....

I think you guys are quite a ways off base . I have much more respect for the Indians around here and their use of the woods than I do for the Fairbanks crowd that invade our neck of the woods every year . I'm a " whitey " , so is my wife . I have good friends from Tetlin and Northway , they eat what they shoot and they don't care much about spreads and hides squared , they live it .

I must say even after living 22 years in the bush and being aware of many animals shot and wasted I'm shooked by this. This is just plain old blood lust. This is not subsistance or anything other than killing for fun. Personally if each of these people had killed some caribou and retrieved the meat because they NEEDED it I would have no problem accepting that.

This type of abhorrent behavior is what causes a lot of the rift between native and non native groups in Alaska. The natives talk about their respect for the land etc and then pull this shit. It just leaves me disgusted.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by alaskaguy:
I think you guys are quite a ways off base . I have much more respect for the Indians around here and their use of the woods than I do for the Fairbanks crowd that invade our neck of the woods every year . I'm a " whitey " , so is my wife . I have good friends from Tetlin and Northway , they eat what they shoot and they don't care much about spreads and hides squared , they live it .

Athbascans and Eskimos have two totally different ideals on life, let a lone hunting. I know quite a few people who have lived around both and Eskimos will suck the freaking life out of you. I have never heard anyone say anythign negative about the people in Tok.

This happens more than you think when I was in Alaska several years ago a couple of other hunters who where being inspected by game wardens which they were not fined complained about some local people who where in a large motor powered boat who repeatedly shot into groups of caribou with 22 caliber rifles as they swam across a river. The Indians would only dragged back those that died in the water no attempts to track for any wounded was ever attempted since they never beached the boat .

some time ago we watched the local indians shooting snow geese in the Yukon delta in the spring. if a goose landed more than a few feet away, they would make no effort to retrieve it. the bears coming out of their dens however loved it

I grew up in a reservation town 45 years ago . I've lived 6 years in an Eskimo village and the rest out here with the Tetlin bunch . I've pounded nails with both here in Alaska , my kids have played with their kids , my wife taught school for 25 years where whites were a minority . Natives here have their problems and create problems for the rest of us but I'll tell you experts from the Outside that I've seen more waste and unethical hunting by whites than natives 2 to 1 . You guys are talking about something you don't know about .

Might as well add my experience. About eight years ago I hunted sheep in the Brooks, for the 2nd time. In base camp the subject of subsistence hunting by Indians came up. The four guides described the program as a joke & an excuse for indiscriminate killing of game for "kicks". Sure, some of the meat was salvaged, but much was abandoned. They used snowmobiles in the process. At times, they would drag it back to their "homes" and leave it to rot in the front yard. Too lazy or uncaring to tend to it. They had seen this more than once. I only relate what we were told; I did not personally experience it. I have no reason to doubt the veracity of these fellas; I found them to be stand-up, reliable and dependable guys and highly professional. And, they said this conduct was not isolated; happened more often than you might believe.

People are people.
If you spend enough time in any Alaska native village - or fly around them much - you will see enough wanton waste to make you sick.
On the other hand the waste and indiscriminate killing done by off duty GI's around remote bases like King Salmon - when the US govt supplied four wheelers and snowgos - was just as appalling.

Rather than defending and/or making excuses for it - we all should make sure to voice our displeasure at the acts - no matter who does it.

As with most other crimes, probably the majority of culprits are males aged 15-25. There just aren't many unsupervised whites that age in the wilderness areas.

quote:

Originally posted by alaskaguy:
I grew up in a reservation town 45 years ago . I've lived 6 years in an Eskimo village and the rest out here with the Tetlin bunch . I've pounded nails with both here in Alaska , my kids have played with their kids , my wife taught school for 25 years where whites were a minority . Natives here have their problems and create problems for the rest of us but I'll tell you experts from the Outside that I've seen more waste and unethical hunting by whites than natives 2 to 1 . You guys are talking about something you don't know about .

The 100 or so caribou in ? are a mere drop in the bucket of the wanton waste and illegal kills that occur in Alaska every hunting season. During the 1990's when the wholesale extermination of the Mulchatna caribou herd was in progress a conservative guess on my part would 1000's of caribou were left in the field or rotted at airline hubs. When ADF&G gave non-resident 2 caribou the 1st animal to show up was killed and during the hunt for a real caribou most early animals spoiled due to wet and flyblow. After the middle of sept the bulls were in the rut and nobody including sled dogs would eat them, the local dumps were magnets for bears and so-called guides. The fact that transporters aren't bond by any sort of legal or ethical responsiblity to ensure care of meat is taken snowballed to endless heights. It took the transporters,guides who flocked to the herd,diy outfitters, and local about 10yrs to reduce the herd from 275,000 to 20,000.
Moose during this period were high as well but the the inability of the state to have a guide requirement for moose with a 50" minimum has probably had more moose buried or covered up than are reported by naive non-residents. Even guides have to look very close at some moose and I've seen numerous bear piles with a 30 or 40" antler sticking out of it.
I can imagine the same thing is happening now to the western artic herd out of Kotz that is in everyones sights now!

Come on alaskaguy, you gotta admit that alaskan indians do have a "little mans syndrome".

I'm not saying whites dont have there problems, but come on.

I've been hunting out of Tok for about 10 years now and havent had to many problems. a few of the younger generation, we had to..ummmm.. discus things with.

I've also spent time on the lower kusko, toatally differant. totally different mentality.

People are people , exactly . Outside racist chatter isn't needed here , people are people .

People may be People...

...but when one group of people claim special privileges to wildlife based on race, they have changed to situation. Especially when said people claim to be 'closer to the land' based again on nothing other than race.

If people are gonna talk the talk, they gotta walk the walk. Then for the elders to hide the slaughter is even worse. Not hard to see where these youngsters get their ideas of honor and integrity.

I am Inipiaq Eskimo, living in Kotzebue. My wife is from Point Hope. Yes, we did hear of the idiot criminals who slaughtered them caribou back then, and am glad it is being taken care of in the courts.
We know of no elder's who "hid" the slaughter. They were as perplexed as we.
Not ALL Inupiaq Eskimos waste animals, just like not all non-natives waste animals. There are some crimunals, but please don't condem the rest of us.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but lests not make this a racial issue.

quote:

Then for the elders to hide the slaughter is even worse. Not hard to see where these youngsters get their ideas of honor and integrity

now that is "rich"....you're comment is curious, do you personally know these "elders" or for that matter others that share traditional and or culture lifestyles? some hate never stops, no matter how slight.

quote:

The natives talk about their respect for the land etc and then pull this shit. It just leaves me disgusted.

wow...Mark, you surprise me by your comment....the wanton waste of moose meat for exampe by dumb "white" hunters who have lots of money leave behind tons of moose meat after they get their trophy and never tell the Indians who live down river of the meat that is left behind which could be salvaged....they are pretty pissed off to say the least and the elders abhor the behavior...they said "it has been going on for many yrs, when they went crazy for gold is when it began". They want to shoot ever damn plane flying up past them in the fall/hunting season that have pontoons or skis....no how is that for a flip of a coin?

quote:

Native goverments and elder councels do a really shitty job of handling affairs in their village. It is nice to see that they are not going to be allowed to do that.

this is funny....must be "lets bash on Natives forum"....just plain ignorant. biblically speaking one needs to pull the damn 2x4 out of there own eye before they pull on someone elses.

cheessssh for crying out loud....do you all here think alike and believe that all Natives are either just dumb and stupid? some will never learn even with education and money....city people uh no I mean "whitey" will never learn. Just Plain prejudice.

It is a criminal act....period. Native or Non-Native

Shucks Griz, you know its nothing more than 'ignance.

"Freaking Eskimo's suck the life out of you,...."? Sweet! Sounds good, don't hurry back here. Say, if you get the chance why don't you go "Rockin the boat the world over," on the other side of the world from AK.

Anyone that lives in Rural Alaska knows the state dept of fish and game and the fed fish and wildlife folks take game management and enforcement of game laws very seriously. Since I know all the game managers and law enforcement here in Dillingham personally I think I can comfortably say with authority that any and all of them would make it their mission in life to punish violaters mentioned in the ADN article had the crime happened here. No "Pussy footing,". This ain't NW Arkansas. The logistics involved in traveling to a crime scene much less solving the crime just ain't as easy as following three bubba's to the Dairy Queen so you can look in the back of the pickup for an over limit of scaup.

I have no doubt that an equal number of caribou from the same herd are left to rot every year by hunters, native and other. Yes the above circumstance is terrible but certainly not a typical example of native Alaskans regard for game. Why am I right? Because this single event is the only one recorded. If you think I'm wrong please post documentation supporting the assertion of wholesale statewide game slaughter by "Freaking Eskimo's". No, "I heard a guy say,......" isn't documentation.

Shucks, I heard that a few years ago the same thing happened with a pod of belugas, and the Point Hope bunch that time involved a lot more than youngsters. Only difference, as I understood it, was the beluga slaugheter was legal subsistance, regardless of how many were wasted.

I hope that it doesn't annoy you too much that I wasn't actually there to witness it first hand, but that's the way it is. We have to go off the best info we have, and I believed the info because of the source. Perhaps there are others who can affirm or disaffirm this info. The point is that I believe neither the caribou or the beluga fiasco are isolated or unusual instances, but cultural and frequent, and generally accepted, unless the law steps in to make a big deal out of it.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Shucks, I heard that a few years ago.....
KB

Very good! all you need to say.

I have no doubt that there are other examples of native Alaskans wasting game, poaching and on. "Cultural and frequent," as you say, hey your opinion, but of course not defensible as you noted yourself.

Scott,
Certainly you are entitled to dismiss whatever you want, based on whatever criteria you choose. Your perogotive.

I have choices too, and as with most info obtained in real life, unless we're talking about a scientic study or something, we can sort through it and believe it or not based on our own system. The important thing is to distinguish between fact and something otherwise, which I am careful to do, hence the words I heard, which most people can kindly know that I'm clearly not trying to state it as a fact. However, I asked for affirmation.

This is a forum, for discussion, and I'll continue to state my opinion and the basis for it whether you approve, or ignore it or not. Thanks for your input.

KB

Doesn't matter what color they are, they killed those caribou and wasted over half of them and they should be punished for it. This has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with wanton waste.

quote:

Originally posted by M70Nut:
Doesn't matter what color they are, they killed those caribou and wasted over half of them and they should be punished for it. This has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with wanton waste.

BINGO

Thanks Bluey for the notation of my entitlement.

By my poor math skills I have counted better than three anonamous posters make claims to having "heard", been told, and making their own observations regarding the so called cultural disregard for wildlife. All with much applause and agreement from the board.

Watterrat makes note of his unsubstansiated claim to observing 1000's of caribou left in the field or at airport hubs by we assume non eskimo hunters,.............Nothing. Not even a grunt from the crowd. SGraves said in an earlier post on this thread,"White sportsmen have more reverence,..." Well,...... I guess Waterrat might think thats BS. Not speaking for him of course.

I refered to the "Lets bash natives forum" as "ignant because it is. I gather from the locations all the posters bolstering the anti native claim to be from that they do not live in rural Alaska and therefore don't know what the heck they're talking about. What you urban dwellers see on tv, what you might hear in the week you spend out here anually hunting and fishing is not an education on "The Bush" and the folks that live there. Did you notice that .458 did acknowledge rural residents sometime do make poor use of the resource, but in the same post made his recollection of wanton waste surrounding rural military bases staffed with non natives? Yep, them eskimo's will "Suck the life out of you,.."

I agree this is a forum for discussion. Sure! Post whatever you darn well want. I'll call BS as I deem appropriate.

Rationalize it whatever way you want. It's all about ethics, and whether they are different depending on who you are talking about or perhaps where they are from.

KB

I am rationalizing nothing.

Claiming Native Alaskans as a culture are indifferent to the health of a game population or wildlife in general is ignorant.

Claiming our local state and federal wildlife agencies are not dedicated to protecting the fish, game, and habitat they live in is ignorant.

Making these kinds of claims without any kind of evidence to back them up is dis honest.

As we agree, this is a forum for discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by alaskaguy:
I grew up in a reservation town 45 years ago . I've lived 6 years in an Eskimo village and the rest out here with the Tetlin bunch . I've pounded nails with both here in Alaska , my kids have played with their kids , my wife taught school for 25 years where whites were a minority . Natives here have their problems and create problems for the rest of us but I'll tell you experts from the Outside that I've seen more waste and unethical hunting by whites than natives 2 to 1 . You guys are talking about something you don't know about .

Considering the title topic, I think we do.

Why are you kit gloving the Eskimos? You don't live there and probably have never lived in the Arctic, so why the kit gloves?

Concerning the slaughter of beluga, none that I saw were wasted. Yeah, I've seen it. I live up here where my people hunt belugas, and I've not seen any waste.
Granted, I've not seen it all, so maybe some idiot criminals did waste beluga, and they ought to be in jail or some odd thing, but not everyone wastes game animals.
Lets keep the focus on these criminals, doing criminal acts, and not on racial issues. Eskimo-bashing is seriously verging on racial issues. Lets not go there, gentlamen.

quote:

Eskimo-bashing is seriously verging on racial issues. Lets not go there, gentlamen.

don't take offense by the forum members, it is humanistic behavior and no matter how hard one pleas it is to no avail--history reproves itself over and over and over again. it is a shame that "hunters" not only here in our state but all over the world behave in the "slaughter" mentality...must be an ego or disease thing. There is no easy answer....sorry to say. What should have been done, what could have been done or by whom ....it takes just one person to sway the rest....obviously no one was responsible.

Do the crime do the time....irregardless of what ethnicity or background. Hope it gets resolved properly, for everyones sake.

What some of you have failed to understand is that Subsistence is not a native issue. Subsistence is for all rural Alaska residents, not just native. When someone breaks the law in Alaska, both Federal and State LEOs do their level best to investigate and bring to justice the perps. Jim

Hello Rusty! Long time since we've talked! How's the jewelry making going?

Anyhow...

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Gunn:

We know of no elder's who "hid" the slaughter. They were as perplexed as we.

I got that straight from the article...

"...The discovery and a subsequent lack of cooperation from community elders launched an eight-month investigation...
...Many leaders in the Inupiat Eskimo village were skeptical of the reports, saying details of the killings had been exaggerated and that troopers were handling the case unprofessionally.

They launched their own investigation in which they were unable to find evidence of slaughter or waste, Jack Schaefer, the president of the Native Village of Point Hope, told the Daily News in August. Elders were convinced no wrongdoing had occurred, he said..."

If you say you didn't hear of any elders hiding the slaughter, I believe you. But that doesn't mean some of that didn't happen, just that you didn't hear about it. It's a big chasm between the elders finding of no wrongdoings, to charges filed by ADF&G based on evidence found. Something don't add up.