quote:

Originally posted by Jim Brainard:
What some of you have failed to understand is that Subsistence is not a native issue. Subsistence is for all rural Alaska residents, not just native.

Not completely. Don't forget that natives can hunt marine mammals based strictly on race.

Also...

"...In late July, Schaefer sent a letter to Gov. Sarah Palin regarding the "caribou die off" in which he accuses troopers of handling the case poorly and asks for the village council to be able to handle the necessary punishment, if any..."

Please let me know what other group of Alaskans ask to handle punishment for their members? I can only think of this one, and it's based primarily on race.

Just facts, not racism.

Hey BW are you up here in Prudhoe , or in Sitka ??? I,m staying @ the P B Hotel , Moving to Chugach Camp on the morrow , will be commuting to NorthStar , daily . But as to the subject at hand ..I myself believe that ANYONE who hunts for
subsistence , regardless of ethnic origin .....

should be required to hunt with only single shot rifles or primitive weapons .............. I think it has been established that I ama bush Alaskan who has lived in quite a few villages and many camps in Alaska ........I was dumbfounded at the wanton slaughter of Musk Ox 3 or 4 years ago up in the Point Hope area , somewhere north of Kivelina .....They had shot a bunch of musk ox and just left them to rot ...... I don,t plan on ever having anything to do with killing a musk ox ..I think they are too cool and really enjoy seeing the herd that frequents the east side of the Sag River .....It,s on the lease so they can,t be hunted .... But the report in the Sounder was in some villages they believe that if the Musk ox are close to a village the caribou won,t come in ,.... If that was the case , why not process the animals for food ......... 95 % of the wanton waste , stems from substance abuse , and ignorant morons ,of any ethnic origin .. allowing themselves to have anything to do with hunting while under the influence ........

Ya know what it take to go spotlighting in Hoonah ????? A 5th of McNaughtons , a gram of pot , an 18 pack of beer and a pickup ......Oh ya and a gun , thats right need a gun , mini 14 is real good ,bullets don,t cost much and you can shoot alot ....

Subsistence is an interesting subject out here.

Now that our caribou herd is toast the moose and salmon reign supreme for subsistence/ sport/ whatever.

The twist for the rural populations is that they don't really have the use of domestic meat. Yes in Dillingham we do have two stores that both sell all varieties of domestic meat, but day in and day out for many of us out here the menu is wild meat of some species. Yes the predominance of wild game on the platter is a choice, but it also a requirement financially and socially. This week, (I write this on a Friday evening,) I have had for dinner, moose burger, goose fajita's, moose steak, king salmon, and tonight was for my gal and I, "Pizza Friday", our usual Friday night wing ding. Point being, a quantity of rural residents really do eat and depend on wild game.

The beluga whale "slaughter" mentioned above doesn't seem a slaughter to me in the political sense if the whales were transpoterd to the freezer. The limit on caribou in some hunting zones at one time was 5 per day per hunter. No annual bag limit. That also doesn't seem like a slaughter to me if all the 150 caribou, ( males or females without dependent young,)were butchered appropriately, transported to the freezer and fed to hungry little village babies.

Native or not, white or other, rural Alaska residents use and depend on using wild fish and game for our dinner. We don't do Safeway, we don't have Sam's Club. Stopping by Applebee's to Go isn't a choice for us. When I got skunked this last fall moose hunting the pressure was on to fill the freezer during our December hunt. I did connect with a bull, and now at about the same time an urban Alaskan resident is asking their hubby, "Prime Rib or Sushi?", maybe "Chili's or Salad Garden?" My gal is asking me, "Moose steak or burrito's?" or "Salmon or mallard?"

FYI, moose burrito's are gawdaweful good.

Subsistance: Anyone in remote Alaska that qualifys is a "subsistance huter, and susbsistance laws apply" meaning you can hunt in some national parks, as it is a federal law.

Most Alaskans (and alot of other folks on this planet we call Earth) hunt for subsistance, what ever color they are it doesn't matter. Especially if they live someplace without the infastructure that even places like Two Dot Montana have.

When I lived in Barrow I remember paying $12-15 for a t-bone in the package at the Alaska Commercial store. The same steak cooked in a resteraunt was $25 or 30. A hamburger was $10 in a resteraunt or 12 if you wanted cheese onions and mushrooms on it.

I think the Marine Mammal Protection act is BULLSHIT! Have you ever tasted whale steaks? Man are we missing out on that. Let a lone whites can't hunt polar bears or walrus, and the natives can. Even if they are and Indian from Dillingham they can go to Barrow and shoot a polar bear and a muskox. What kind of shit is that?

Game meat is an important part of living in Alaska and I don't think that anyone that lives there could make it work without it. But like a lot of people I think that greed and shitty ethics get in the way fairly often int he wanton waste and abuse of the native wildlife in subsistance areas. Especially by native Alaskan's who spread the bullshit propaganda of being "closer to nature". All the while being stoned or drunk out of their brain.

I was a police officer in Barrow, and I arrested more drunk and drugged up alaska natives in a month than most cops in Fairbanks see in a three years.

When a polar bear rug is hanging on a clothes line at a house 200 yards from the police station for 13 months before some dog made off with it, you know there isn't a lot of respect for wildlife in town. And when I bitched about it to the federal fish and wildlife service biologist in town, I was told that they didn't go after alaska natives for waste.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I heard that a few years ago the same thing happened with a pod of belugas, and the Point Hope bunch that time involved a lot more than youngsters. Only difference, as I understood it, was the beluga slaughter was legal subsistence, regardless of how many were wasted.

Perhaps there are others who can affirm or disaffirm this info.

The point is that I believe neither the caribou or the beluga fiasco are isolated or unusual instances, but cultural and frequent, and generally accepted, unless the law steps in to make a big deal out of it. KB

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Gunn:
Concerning the slaughter of beluga, none that I saw were wasted. Yeah, I've seen it. I live up here where my people hunt belugas, and I've not seen any waste.
Granted, I've not seen it all, so maybe some idiot criminals did waste beluga, and they ought to be in jail or some odd thing, but not everyone wastes game animals.
Lets keep the focus on these criminals, doing criminal acts, and not on racial issues. Eskimo-bashing is seriously verging on racial issues. Lets not go there, gentlamen.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Subsistence is an interesting subject out here.

The twist for the rural populations is that they don't really have the use of domestic meat. Yes the predominance of wild game on the platter is a choice, but it also a requirement financially and socially. Point being, a quantity of rural residents really do eat and depend on wild game.

The beluga whale "slaughter" mentioned above doesn't seem a slaughter to me in the political sense if the whales were transpoterd to the freezer. The limit on caribou in some hunting zones at one time was 5 per day per hunter. No annual bag limit. That also doesn't seem like a slaughter to me if all the 150 caribou, ( males or females without dependent young,)were butchered appropriately, transported to the freezer and fed to hungry little village babies.

Native or not, white or other, rural Alaska residents use and depend on using wild fish and game for our dinner. When I got skunked this last fall moose hunting the pressure was on to fill the freezer during our December hunt. I did connect with a bull.

OK, we have confirmation of the event, and some insight into native perspective. As summarized by Scott, it’s not a slaughter if transported to the freezer. I’ll say more on that later.

First, I think it’s very interesting to read an explanation and justification for exploiting the yummy bush meat. Humanity has been doing just that for many thousands of years, and I think that part of the root of this whole discussion is that we all place a very high value on the privilege, and deeply hope that we and our descendants can all continue to do so for many more thousands of years. If none of us cared about that, then what’s the point? Although we all have a different perspective, we all have a common ground in that we value bush meat, and we cherish the privilege of having it as a food source, and the privilege of the hunt, and a wild and natural environment. Thinking about it, right now in my freezer I have wild hog from Texas, and deer from Chichagof, buffalo from Glen Allen, salmon and halibut and shrimp – all local, and maybe more stuff, but no domestic or farm raised meat. I don’t like the smell or taste of it anymore. I’m glad spring has almost arrived so I can resupply.

The word “privilege” in my opinion highlights the distinct difference in two ways of looking at the issue. Many of us moved into this part of the country by choice, and many were born here. Most of us who embrace the modern world as a whole, and understand the realities of the big picture, can truly see the underlying concept of privilege. However, there are many cultures in the world who regard the exploitation of the natural resource of bush meat as a right, and with little regard to conservation or ethics. Perhaps this has become relevant within the last 200 years or less. Take China for example. I’ve never been there, but from the stuff I see on national geographic and such, those folks have pretty much consumed everything wild, and they are down to eating the monkeys, frogs and turtles now. I have no idea what they are using to get a hard on, with the high price of Rhino horn and such. Now, some Chinaman will call that cultural insensitivity, and probably be correct, but so what. I never needed no stinking frog dust or rhino horn to get it up, so what’s the big deal?

My point is that defeating the discussion and conversation by making it about race, or rural vs urban, or about feeding the hungry little village babies is emotional and predisposed, rather than objective and open-minded. I could say: What about the portion of those 150 caribou brought to the freezer, but used to feed the dogs? I have no way to measure but speculation based on scant evidence, but I think far more village caribou goes to the dogs than to feed village babies.

For those who have never spent time in a village in Alaska, now is your opportunity to see what it is really about. As the weather warms, the stacks of winter honey buckets, dog poop, animal carcasses, trash starts to thaw, and emerge from the snow banks, and ooze out into the yards and streets. Also emerging from the snow are the immense store of valuable spare parts and old lumber, and just stuff accumulated over the years, such as old trucks, cars, boats, broken or worn out snow machines and four wheelers, household appliances, etc.. The constant day and all night noise of the zoom-zoom snow machines is beginning to be exchanged for the four wheelers, and the dogs rotate their timing of sleeping during the heat of the day and barking or yowling all night. If you have never seen a village dog, that just has to be a must see on you check list. This has to be one of the most anti-social, turd factory, decibel producing mongrel in existence. Oh yes, don’t forget your shots, especially hepatitis, and whooping cough, and others. Consult your doctor. It’s like traveling to a third world country. By late July or early August, the stench subsides a little, but still smells like twelve dead horses rotting all over town, only dried out a bit, rather than half frozen and soggy in spring. I suppose maggots gotta eat too. Call it racist if you want. I call it reality. Hey, there’s an idea – a new reality show called village life in rural Alaska. And to really get it, you have to understand that they are proud of it, and very defensive about it.

My point is that one has to see this stuff to understand where someone who lives there is coming from in their discussion or justification. If you have ever doubted the scientist’s explanation of the mass extinctions of the mega-beasts 40,000 years ago, in North America, Australia or wherever it occurred, being caused by exploitation by people, all you need to do to believe it is understand village life.

I think it is profound irony, that most most of the village inhabitants seem to think of themselves as not being part of the world village community, yet in a very few years it is predicted that many of these coastal villages will be underwater as sea levels rise. Now that's bringing world view and inclusion whether ready or not. Furthermore, the vast sums that built much of the infrustructure and continues to provide most of the cash economy, taxpayer money, will probably not be as readily available, when the attention is drawn to what to do about New York City and Miami, as they sink under the waves too. I think maybe places like Kotzebue will have to find their own tundra hill to climb up on. If you don't believe me, well I have a deal for you - some great beach front real estate in Kotzebue with a view.

Back to the beluga slaughter. The difference in this kind of subsistence hunting, and what most people think about when using the word subsistence is that the natives will kill the whole pod of belugas, if they can get them all. They do it with rifles and boats and radios and airplanes. Now, killing them all doesn’t mean that they are all recovered. In fact the recovery rate is shockingly disproportionate to the overall numbers killed. But you see, that doesn’t matter, and isn’t counted. The count only includes the ones recovered, and the others considered necessary collateral losses or damage, and soon forgotten. Then there is the notion of dividing it among the village. Well and good. However, some of the winter freezers are a cache in the frozen ground. Again, a lot of it becomes dog food, or is thrown out in the spring. Spend some time in summer along the sand bar in Kotzebue. Witness the daily fresh supply of seal carcasses, with their noses blown off, washed up by the swirl of the river confluence, bobbing and bloated, to realize the reality of the collateral losses. And these are just the ones the currents caught right to wash them up in sight. Again, I’ll say that in my opinion this is culturally accepted, and this is where the seed of the perverted act comes from when those youth shot and left so many caribou. They simply see it all the time, and participate in it in many different ways, like chasing wolves and caribou with snow machines, until they are exhausted then shooting them with a small caliber rifle. I was surprised to find that the little Hornady 17 caliber is quite popular for this use.

And this is only the tip of the berg as they say. This whole issue may actually be irreconcilable, because of the vastly different way of looking at it. It seems very unlikely that opinions are going to be changed, and that attitudes will remain the same. So, the only way change can occur is for the laws regulating ethical behavior such as discussed here be enforced zealously regardless of race, regardless of whether a visiting sport hunter or subsistence hunter.

KB

For a second I thought about debating your post point by point and figgered quickly that was pointless.

Mentioning the value of a discussion being "objective and open minded." and following with, ".... I think far more village caribou goes to dogs than feed village babies." seems reason enough to conclude this pointless discussion.

Anchorage is a beautiful big city. We in rural Alaska hope you are very happy residing there. Please feel free to visit out here as often as you like and if theres anyway you think I can assist in making your visit any more pleasant please don't hesitate to ask.

.. Who is predicting that 3rd avenue is going to become beach front property ????????? You don,t actually believe in global warming do you ??????.....Thats like believing mountain lion won,t swim Blake Channel or Eastern Passage ....

Scott not every one who lives in South Central Alaska lives in Anch or the Valley .. They may live on the banks of Orca Inlet ,or in Willow

I think the reality of global warming has gone beyond debate. Now what is causing it my be less than clear, but occuring is a fact. What, you think 90% of the world's scientific community is lying?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I think the reality of global warming has gone beyond debate. Now what is causing it my be less than clear, but occuring is a fact. What, you think 90% of the world's scientific community is lying?

KB

I think 90% of the scientific community is lining their pockets with grant money to study nothing

We all should be so lucky as to find such a sure thing - job security - they are certainly doing a good job of it.

Lying Bas---ds
gotta be a conspiricy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_consensus

.....Scientists saying the ice caps are going to melt is like Alan Greenspan saying he doesn,t understand why or how we got in a recession ........ With either when their predictions don,t happen , oh well they still got paid ...... You get money from someone , they can tell you what they want you to do ,, If you don,t do it you don,t get no mo money ..... .....Sounds like job security to me .........

Surely all those thousands of scientists are in it for the money, just like those guys on wall street, etc.

Think of all that education, and there are so many of them in agreement. What happened to their credability? Humm, maybe it's that some folks just believe whatever they want, no matter what. Human nature is an amazing thing.

KB

..... Whoever controls what ever media form controls what ever credibility ??????? Whatever liberal arts indoctrination someone got has alot to do with what kind of BS they want to read and hear ......... Human nature is just such an amazing thing ......

Isn't it great - that warm and fuzzy feeling we get when we can agree on something - the human nature thing I mean. Made my day.


For those of you who don't know, Gumboot and I are good friends, and we made a pact long time ago to not let our differences of opinion get in the way of our friendship. We simply agree to disagree, and don't damage the friendship. It seems to work out well that way.

So, it's clear to me that disagreement is no barrier to friendship and respect.

KB

. I thot it was sad that the Anchorage paper didn,t run the Musk Ox story ......What kind of a sick ____________ would shoot half dozen musk ox and leave them to rot , bulls and cows both ...

Then there was also that walrus incident - heads chopped off - bodies left to rot - lots of them.

KB

.. Ya they would be washed up on the beaches by Red Dog Port .. There is a good current that comes down from the north along there . They have been seen floating past the ships at anchor there ...

quote:

For a second I thought about debating your post point by point and figgered quickly that was pointless.

don't.....

quote:

For those who have never spent time in a village in Alaska, now is your opportunity to see what it is really about.

that is to me offensive....come to the village I married into or from the one my mother comes from.

I think you have a chip on your shoulder.....I personally believe that my "subsistence" rights will always be protected and "if" not how can you prevent me or others to do what we have done for so many many yrs?

You are fueling a fire...period and forgetting that this type of killings do go on even in your "humble" area. The trash in the cities after spring is appauling, the air stinks, the people are rude and sullen, dog shit on the sidewalks, wino's everywhere, officers with attitudes....chesssh when does
this end? You're rivers are now being cleaned up but in the past you all made litter take place not only in your back yard but everywhere else.

I like the life I have made with me and wife and children, I too enjoy harvesting meat to put in the smoke cache and readying for winter. I again like to have both bear and antlered game in the freezer along with salmon. My labradors(3) eat nothing but Science Diet, I have a indoor bathroom with running water and a septic system.

I work both in the power plant and take care of our runway and repair our heavy equipment. I also encourage the "new" generation to take what they need. Surprising to see how well they truly like to hunt and "eat" what they kill. These children are raised to respect the "land" opposed to the children I see in the cities. They learn to be self sufficient here and do it with reserve and a quiet pride.

Bottom line is.....your offensive. Not all villages and its people do and live like your racist beliefs. I too hope "justice" prevails but I have not seen much take to effect in many yrs....here and there perhaps or in the headlines.

wish you well and too....lead by example and not by mouth. Maybe that is the answer...living as an example eh?

Serenity Prayer:
God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference.

Or another way to say it:
For every ailment under the sun
There is a remedy, or there is none;
If there be one, try to find it;
If there be none, never mind it.


KB

quote:

Serenity Prayer:
God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference.

Or another way to say it:
For every ailment under the sun
There is a remedy, or there is none;
If there be one, try to find it;
If there be none, never mind it.

Smiler
KB

nice prayer or whatever....oh well