Gentlemen,

I have read a number of books on hunting in Alaska. It appears for all hunting, except mountains / sheep & goats, hip waders are recommended.

This is on account of boggy/ wet conditions. This got me thinking - why this particular combination?

For Winter hind culling in Scotland, where it is always wet,boggy etc, many, myself included, use waterproof boots, waterproof gaiters with waterproof over trousers.

Stalking requires you the crawl over the ground a lot, ford small mountain rivers / streams etc. So you will become both wet and muddy, at least on the outside.

My own 'dress' includes Helly Hansen underwear, Arktis camouflage over trousers (or Deer Hunter Advantage Timber pattern waterproof similar), wool socks, Seal Skinz waterproof socks, North Isle Goretax / Cordura knee length gaiters with front zip and a pair of Le Chameau "Mouflon Plus" and Meindl "Douvre Extreme" boots.

These keep me dry and toastie. And like a truck, I can hose my lower regions down and clean at the end of the day.

Bearing in mind I have never worn the La Crosse type hip waders, and only seen fisherman type waders etc, I would have thought the better ankle / calf support of lace up boots and traction of the boot sole would be better for crossing uneven ground.

Both Norwegian and Swedish hunting conditions involve boggy ground and traversing slopes etc. There, boots like "Lundhags" are popular.

I would like to receive your comments.

Many winters ago we had a standoff situation that lasted several days in freezing rain conditions. Even w/ rotations, many of the personel were near hypothermic. IIRC, the team was issued new woolen gear after this that was made by a company that makes gear for the British SAS (I think). I believe this new woolen stuff was Arktis. Warm stuff.

Up till last year I would duct tape the legs of my Helly Hanson Impertech bibs over the tops of my boots when fording mountain streams on bear hunts. Last year I needed to ford several rain swollen streams that were moving fairly quick and this system failed me miserably. It works well in slow or still water, but it's PITA for my style of hunting.

GVA

GaryVA,

Thank you for the reply. You are correct, Arktis are a 'military clothing / kit' contractor, however, I believe the kit is too good to be given to the ordinary soldier! It appears, from their advertising anyway, it is used by special forces of several NATO countries.

"Country Covers" is another company which produces high quality military kit.

I am unsure of the relationship between the two organisations, as they both produce and market similar styled garments.

Thinking through your comments, and giving it a bit more thought myself, the most likely answer I can come up with is the application environment is very similar to fishing and widfowling, where you are standing / kneeling in water and soft ooze like mud / soil.

In Alaska, I guess you are 'walking'/ wading across a seemingly solid land surface which is in reality no more than a floating entanglement of plants / roots overlying a soft gluttinous soil. The land is basically a swamp.

Because most of the stalking in Scotland is done on an incline / decline, the drainage is better, so the ground is less 'wet' and more 'solid'.

It is the best I can come up with. None the less, the Silver Birch thickets and copses in more sheltered gulleys / ravines and ringing small lakes - "Lochans" (c.f. Alakan Alder groves?) are associated with boggey ground, leg entangling heather / bracken etc. But they are not a 'swamp'.

Robthom:

Having hunted in Scotland and Alaska, let me tell you the difference: in Scotland you return to a nice hotel, a hot shower, a bar with various wiskey, etc. In Alaska you return to a tent that is often wet, clothes that won't dry, etc.

I use stocking foot waders with normal boots. Once you try this you will never use hip boots again, no matter what the quality.

AZ, that all sounds good for Scotland, but you obviously haven't spent enough time in Alaska. Your fancy stocking foot waders will last about 5 minutes if you're lucky and not walk through any juniper thickets or talus fans. Nothing sucks any worse than wet leather in subfreezing temps.

I wear waist high waders and Koflach boots.....been doing it for three years now and have the same pair of waders without a patch......if you're walking through alder thickets, I've spent a lot of time there too, they work just as well as hip boots.....if you're going to wear your regular boots, you may have to go up a size.....with the plastic boots, by wearing them without the booty, they fit well for me. Lots of folks are doing this now, but it's not for everyone. Remember that hip boots, even the best ones, have little long term support for your feet and especially your ankles.

Joe

I wear ankle fit LaCrosse hippers with 400 grams of thinuslate and have been using them for moose and bear hunting for several years. They work great and i'll be using them on my sheep hunt this year if deep water crossings are in the way, if not, i'll take off my boots, roll up my pant legs and cross that way. Works every time. My partner used the Koflachs last year on a goat hunt on Kodiak, by the time we got to the top f the mountain where we were going to camp he had developed huge blisters on both feet. Before this hunt he swore by them, good thing I brough mole skin with me or his hunt would have ended that day. Ovis is right, plastic boots aren't for everyone.

Another question to caveat this one: You AK guys, what are your thoughts on Bog Busters from Cabelas? They have nylon straps to lock the ankles in tight and roomy enough to get a good arch support in there before going out.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
AZ, that all sounds good for Scotland, but you obviously haven't spent enough time in Alaska. Your fancy stocking foot waders will last about 5 minutes if you're lucky and not walk through any juniper thickets or talus fans. Nothing sucks any worse than wet leather in subfreezing temps.

George:

Making assumptions about someone without knowing them very well can make you look like a fool. For example, if I look at someone's picture and I see a double chin, I think, "Gee, that guy must be a couch potato." But then I might be wrong, so I don't make such assumptions.

Uncomfortable is uncomfortable. Although extent and duration makes a whole lot of difference.

The hip boots I have seen would not be fun if any serous walking was to be done: 10 -15 miles a day and over mountainous terrain.

Would I be correct in assuming that sheep / goat hunting apart, most of the Alaskan hunting is done on fairly 'flat' ground aound braided rivers, on plateaus and foothills? I would certainly not want to go crag scrambling around Torridon and similar areas in Ross-shire and Sutherland in waders. Here, the mountains rise directly from sea level (sea lochs / coastline) to 2500 - 3000 feet in a very short distance!

Given the fairly unaminous support for waders on this forum, I was wondering why the Scandinavian hunters with similar ground conditions do not use them.

Additionally, the military of the UK, Norway, Sweden and Finland, and, for all I know, the US too, seem to eschew hip waders for 'artic / mountain' fighting gear?

To my mind, looking at what the military use for 'survival clothing' is a good start for your hunting gear.

AZ, come one now, the picture is excellent. I actually have THREE chins, I'm 6'1", weight 260 and am 61 with an elevated diaphragm. But I wasn't always that way and I haven't forgotten what I did when I wasn't. I write as well and I expect that when I give my OPINION on an open forum, someone is not going to be impressed with it. Telling me I'm a fat old man is just a fact, changing my opinion or your opinion is a fantasy.

Rob, speaking of difference of opinions, I must adamantly disagree with yours. Using the military survival equipment is the LAST place one should look. I spent 30 years there and I know that GIs are "dispensible". Creature comforts are usually about 3rd or 4th down the chain from "getting the job done". Polypropolene undergarments are just now become standard issue. I wore "jungle boots" and they had to be the most uncomfortable pieces of crap ever invented. Having worn a lizard suit for so long makes me want to puke when I go hunting. I don't WANT to look like a GI and I want my equipment to be much better than I had to endure there. Sheep hunters tend to be the last bastion of the "mean, lean, killing machines" anyway. (BTW, "flat" might apply well to some areas of Alaska, but - trust me- you don't want to say that about the areas that are especially game and trophy rich.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Robthom:

Having hunted in Scotland and Alaska, let me tell you the difference: in Scotland you return to a nice hotel, a hot shower, a bar with various wiskey, etc. In Alaska you return to a tent that is often wet, clothes that won't dry, etc.

I use stocking foot waders with normal boots. Once you try this you will never use hip boots again, no matter what the quality.

What do you do when your boots get wet and freeze? No fire to thaw out your boots and no cabin to retreat to. Kind of hard to put on frozen boots.

We in the guideing industry see alot of creative alternitives to hip boots. Bog busters are the worst of the bunch as they have to be hitched to your belt and can't be rolled down to cool your legs. A few guides in the Cordova area use waist high breathable and praise them but on the whole most guide wear ankle fit Lacrosses.

The plastic boots are praised by some and damned by others, I tried them and they didn't work for me.

Redhawk:

I have never hunted in Alaska when it was so cold that boots would stay frozen unless it was winter (I did spend a week in the winter on the Alaska Peninsula and fell through a creek at 20 below, but I had Mickey Mouse boots).

IMO caribou and moose hunting are warm enough that even if your boots are soaked they won't freeze solid at night in the tent. Let's put it this way: blisters as the result of wearing hip boots is a quick way to end a hunt. And one more thing: I don't wear leather boots.

Robthom,
I've worn the Lacrosse ankle fit hip boot hunting blacktail deer, brownies, interior grizzlies, Moose, and Caribou. They do lack ankle support but the air bob sole grips the wet ground pretty well. It helps to change socks often and bring along some moleskin to stop blisters from getting really bad. I usually bring both ankle fit hip boots and regular waterproof hunting boots with me on the trip. I often start out wearing hip boots but once I've scouted the hunting area and know what I'm up against, I'll wear whatever is needed for that specific day and hunting area. Some days I'll wear the hip boots and others I'll hunt an area where they are not needed. I don't wear em for sheep or goat. In those circumstances, when it comes time to cross a creek, I strip down to my underwear and slip on a pair of lightweight sandals and go for it. By the time you get to the other side of the creek, you really appreciate dry clothes. I'll let you use your imagination to figure out what I do on those sheep and goat hunts when the water is over the top of my underwear. Let's just say it's important to have dry underwear! ;-)

Sep

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the information.

Keep it coming!

I had a good 'look' at a Cabelas catalogue. I think I have a number of misconceptions concerning the nature, build / materials of hip boots / waders, as designed and marketed for Alaskan & Canadian Yukon conditions.

I have been judging the pictures and comments on North American conditions against the waders etc I have seen and 'held' in UK fishing tackle shops etc.

The UK type waders etc slide around quite a bit when you wear them. Snug fit, while still enabling air to circulate around your feet (having crammed on as many pairs of socks the boot will allow) is a wild hope. Hence walking log distances over steep uneven ground, given the lack of ankle and calf support, would be 'torture'.

At one time, the more expensive designer - "yuppie" rubber Wellington boot was popular for hind stalking in the wet Autumn / Winter conditions. But, I and others were not particularly happy with the grip the soles provided and "wellies", in general, do not provide anything like adequate ankle - calf support.

For this reason, people use the Meindl boots and Lundhags boots with water proof gaiters and waterproof over trousers.

Additionally, the 'rubber' waders I have seen here in the UK are not all that abrasion resistant. Read rock scree slopes, boulders in glacial deposits, crossing mountain streams.

On the latter subject, when I hiked in the 'Hardangar' (spelling) plateau of Norway with friends, we took off our boots and socks to cross shallow rivers. Fortunately, the water was sufficiently cold that you lost feeling in your feet quite quickly, so the river bed rocks did n't hurt your feet.

The quality of the boots and clothing given to the British soldier has greatly improved. I think this is a question of the unit costs principle.

Say you have $20,000,000 to spend on kit. Now there are approx 100,000 combat soldiers in the British army, so 'we' are spending $2000 on each soldier.

As the army has been shrinking in size since the 1960s, each soldier has, proportionally, had more money 'lavished' upon him. Also, even the civil service office boys had to admit the Falklands war equipment was very poor - boots gave soldiers foot rot / trench foot! This had not been seen since the First World War trenches! The back packs damaged your back etc, so soldiers bought their own - generally Berghaus mountaineering load carrying systems.

As a result of this, the value of each, remaining soldier in service has gone up and more is being spent. Now the army boots issued are amongst the best. The quality of the Arktis fleece / Merino wool thermal base layers has been commented on favourably at the beginning of this thread.

I think I should have drawn a distinction between what the soldier is generally given and the 'military' kit products made by contractors like Lowa, Danner, Wiggys etc, which is available to the general public. Wiggys sleeping bags are amongst the best for cold wet conditions from what I have read.

On the subject of getting wet, I would have thought that drying out your clothing is not completely out of the question. The use of quick drying material like fleece etc certainly helps. Now, wool, while it holds its' warmth when wet, go ask any sheep in the UK, becomes very heavy when wet and is difficult to dry. Even hanging over the cooking range in a small Scottish hotel!

Since, I guess you are not eating cold, pre packed rations, a fire will be built to cooking your food, make coffee. This could be used to dry out your clothes. As a survival skill, I would have thought that making a fire ranks up there with finding drinking water, building a shelter and land navigation. Do not go into the woods without it.

It is advertised with the Wiggy system that if you wear damp clothing, your body heat will 'dry' your clothes, the vapour will escape because of the construction material breathability and you will not die of hypothermia. Allegedly.

If you do wear hip boots, here is a neat little trick: wear gore-tex pants under the hip boots. Your sweat will go through the gore-tex and condense on the hip boots. It helps avoid the "clammy" feeling of wearing hip boots.

Thanks Waterrat. I honestly never thought about that belt loop thing and I'd imagine it could be a royal pain in the ass.

robthom, when I was in the Arctic circle hunting Caribou there was no wood to burn in the tundra. There are no trees to cut down to make a fire. We ate MRE's that require not camp fire to cook. Even with the wind blowing the damp air would not let your clothing dry. I know, I put a wet towel on my tent to dry in the sun and 10 hours later it was still wet.

The only way to get wood is to fly it in with you, and you have to make a decision then, do I leave my gear or take wood, there is only so much weight the plane will hold. A lot of planning goes into a drop hunt.

Ok - tundra = tree less.

Just like Scottish deer 'forests'. They cut the trees down hundreds of years ago.

How about a bit further South? In the wooded, hilly areas where the bears are hunted?

Are there laws against open fires in the Alaskan bush to guard against uncontrollable bush fires?

Would you be allowed to use one of those mountaineering pressurized gas stoves?

I to wear only synthetic materials. No cotton as it is too hard to dry and wool retains too much water for too long. A fire where I hunt is a luxury we don't usually indulge in. Either the terrain isn't conducive to it such as the open tundra when hunting caribou or we simply use portable stoves usually burning Coleman white gas to heat coffee or tea or other hot beverages. If we're really lucky we are able to rent a forest service cabin that has either a wood stove or one that burns fuel oil. It's nice to be able to dry your clothes after a long day hunting. We typically eat everything from fresh meat from game we kill cooked in a pan over a portable stove to freeze dried meals such as Mountain House with other dryed goods thrown in.

Your comments about the British military were interesting to me because I retired from the United States Air Force in 2004. Most of the boots and clothing we were issued during my 20 year career served our purposes quite well. I served 13 of those 20 years in Alaska so I've been exposed to arctic conditions a time or two and can only recall one occasion while runnning a trapline at -62F I felt I did not have enough clothing to adequately protect myself. Of course my military duties didn't expose me to as much outdoor activity as would be expected from a British soldier or an American one for that matter.

I have taken two dall sheep while in hip waders, plus moose, several caribou, and bear. Good hip waders seem more substantial and less likely to leave you wet and hypothermic than less waterproof/ less abrasion&tear proof materials. The ankle fits even fit into stirrups if you're lucky enough to have a horse. Misery is crossing a stream while stripped naked when the stream is too deep for the waders.

I have taken 5 sheep in Alaska and never brought hip boots. My standard mountain hunting outfit is polypro long underwear (top and bottom) with a pair of running shorts over the top the bottom polypros. If it gets cold, I pull on my Gore-Tex rainsuit. If it gets too warm, I pull off the bottoms. If it is really warm or I am hiking hard, I put on a cotton t shirt, the only cotton garment I bring. I bring an extra pair of polypro. Actually, it is no longer polypro but high performance fabrics. Even if they are wet, they don't feel like it.

One thing most of us would agree on: wearing jeans on sheep hunt isn't the best selection of clothing.

I like the Lacross Ankle fits forget the exact name, Hip Boots, used them from Kodiak to
all over South Central AK. They are quiet and comfortable. Was able to use them in an uneheated camp for 2 weeks at 5 to 15F when my
leather boots froze and was unable to get them back on. The hip Boots retained a lot of warmth that kept me comfortable. Most of the
neoprene and others are either noisy or to hot. The ankle fits provide some ankle support
important in the Tundra Terrain. Nothing worse than going after a big Bull Moose and litening to swish swish of noisy gore tex or similar fabric. If your ankles and calves are not to big they are very comfortable never blisterd in them in 20 plus years. The cheap hip boots are a waste of money make sure they fit!

Ovis
If Your wearing Waders with Your Plastic boots how do You keep the water, debris out of the inside of the boot..Do you leave the wader long over the Boot cuff..What brand of wader do you use here..
AK

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Redhawk:

I have never hunted in Alaska when it was so cold that boots would stay frozen unless it was winter (I did spend a week in the winter on the Alaska Peninsula and fell through a creek at 20 below, but I had Mickey Mouse boots).

IMO caribou and moose hunting are warm enough that even if your boots are soaked they won't freeze solid at night in the tent. QUOTE]

I routinely hunt moose and caribou in mid to late September and see subzero temps that keep boots frozen solid - even if kept inside the tent overnight. Putting on frozen boots is my most unfavorite part of these hunts.

I have tried many combinations, but keep coming back to ankle-fit LaCrosse hips. Haven't tried the waisthigh/breathables with normal boots yet - but I will.

I hunt moose mid to late September as well and have never had my boots freeze but I keep them inside the tent.

Most people probabley know this , But in the off chance some don,t ,here goes .....If you are wearing hip boots and you have rain gear bibs and coat ...If you have to cross a flowing crik or small river where the water level is waist deep or less.If you put your rain gear on over your hip boots and zip your coat up you won,t get wet at all usually ,,if you don,t stop walking......If you are with someone it is a good idea to link arms so if one looses their footing the other can provide balance and support.....I do not get neked to cross a crik.... Too easy to get a bad cut or bruise or even break a small bone in a foot.....Better to have to dry your clothes than something like that....A top quality pair of leather boots like Vibergs,Whites ,Buffalo,s , or Wescos..14-16" tops and rain gear will handle most situations ...Ankle fit hip boots take care of most else......If you have big calves or thighs it can be tough to find comfortable hippers....