boom stick, i dont think youll get the crap for talking about the 45/70 here as one would on another forum. I personally love the 45/70, i too have a guide gun stainless with a wwg ejector and xs sights. very light and short so its perfect for the brush hunter when shots are far at all. they make a nice hole in the animal and deliver alot of shock. i like the buffalo bore 430grain. i feel very confident with this incase a run in the mr bear. jsut saving up now for a scout scope and will probably buy another guide gun as i am the type of person that if you like something you should have 2 or 3...

grizz... glad to see some like minded here...i never thought about having more than one guide gun but i dont think that is a bad idea for back up or to give to a friend to use with me in the woods. mine has the scout scope set up with a leupold 2.5 fixed backed up by xs peep sights...was thinking about a tritium or fiber optic front though...do you reccomend the wwg ejector? what do you think about these bullets http://www.gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htm


http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/Detail.bok?no=56

Boom stick, Alaskans use of firearms, mmmm. The venerable .45-70, wonderful firearm. When I carry or rather when I walk to check a "spot" it is a comfort. To kill up close - it is the best I've experienced. My rifle has been worked over by Jim West and is the ported 18". I too have this lever "scout scoped" with a Leupold 2.5, TC Maxima QR rings and a XS rail. Had to "firelapp" the bore recently with Marshalls "kit" as it flew to many fliers. With my load of 52Grns of H322 and 425 WLNGC hardcast it is printin .7"@100 yds! Incredibly accurate, better than alot of bolt actions surely. I have used this for quite a few years even though it flew the bullets roughly, success was usual at the close ranges I have taken my shots. Glad it was a levergun. Figure the next rifle will be the 1895C for my wife, she shot my levergun and liked the accuracy but....recoil kept her from being persistent in practice, she takes pride in her hunts and her ability to shoot as well. Excellent rifle.

hey boom, i have no experience with punch bullets but the site looks attractive. we just have a small gun shop on the island so buffalo bore is my only option unless i bought the cheap stuff. I highly recommend the wwg ejector, althoug the stock one never malfunctioned, you can really see how cheap they are when you take it out and compare it with the wwg ejector, and for 25dollars you cant beat the added strength..

I have a stainless guide gun with wwg ejector, and ghost ring sites. I also have the XS scout mount with 2.5x leupold scope with heavy post reticle. There simply isn't a better gun for use as a camp gun, heavy cover big game hunting rifle, or backup gun. A lot of people underestimate the power a good 45/70 load generates.

I only shoot two loads out of my guide gun. A 405gr Rem JSP with H322 @ 1925fps and a 405gr kodiak bonded with H322 @ 1950fps. They both shoot very well.

I don't own one, but several of my hunting buddies do and primarily use them for hunting black bears over bait. They are ideal for that type of hunting, short range, thick cover. A hard hitting rifle like that is hard to beat. When the Marlin Guide Gun first came out, the local stores couldn't keep them in stock.
JD

quote:

Originally posted by Thebear_78:


I have a stainless guide gun with wwg ejector, and ghost ring sites. I also have the XS scout mount with 2.5x leupold scope with heavy post reticle. There simply isn't a better gun for use as a camp gun, heavy cover big game hunting rifle, or backup gun. A lot of people underestimate the power a good 45/70 load generates.

I only shoot two loads out of my guide gun. A 405gr Rem JSP with H322 @ 1925fps and a 405gr kodiak bonded with H322 @ 1950fps. They both shoot very well.

thebear_78...what is that on the front, a light rail? who makes that front sight? which scope caps did you use? is that a synthetic stock or a coated one? thanks for the info and a great post

quote:

Originally posted by grizz007:
Boom stick, Alaskans use of firearms, mmmm. The venerable .45-70, wonderful firearm. When I carry or rather when I walk to check a "spot" it is a comfort. To kill up close - it is the best I've experienced. My rifle has been worked over by Jim West and is the ported 18". I too have this lever "scout scoped" with a Leupold 2.5, TC Maxima QR rings and a XS rail. Had to "firelapp" the bore recently with Marshalls "kit" as it flew to many fliers. With my load of 52Grns of H322 and 425 WLNGC hardcast it is printin .7"@100 yds! Incredibly accurate, better than alot of bolt actions surely. I have used this for quite a few years even though it flew the bullets roughly, success was usual at the close ranges I have taken my shots. Glad it was a levergun. Figure the next rifle will be the 1895C for my wife, she shot my levergun and liked the accuracy but....recoil kept her from being persistent in practice, she takes pride in her hunts and her ability to shoot as well. Excellent rifle.

what did jim west do? i assume he slicked the action and then some. thanks for the tip on firelapping glad to see that your lever action is so accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by grizzinater:
hey boom, i have no experience with punch bullets but the site looks attractive. we just have a small gun shop on the island so buffalo bore is my only option unless i bought the cheap stuff. I highly recommend the wwg ejector, althoug the stock one never malfunctioned, you can really see how cheap they are when you take it out and compare it with the wwg ejector, and for 25dollars you cant beat the added strength..

i'll get the ejector when i can...thanks.

Boomstk, JimWest aka WWG sent the rifle somewhere down to Florida to be refininshed, electroless nickel, restocked with their synthetic, Pachm. recoil decel. pad, replaced extractor, trigger kit, "big mitt" lever, WWG protected rear peep, fiberoptic front, rechambered to their .457 Magnum. Now, the only good thing that does, is allow me to use powders without compressing my loads in developing rounds. I have used standard .45-70 brass and loaded but the throating is longer and accuracy tends to be not as good with their manufactured cases. At that time their was no stainless available, my rifle looks no different than their take down version. My only question about them is why they did not inform me that Marlin tends to have these "bulges" in their barrels and address that for me. That firelapping gave me the opportunity to understand "control wear" and I can assure you I will purchase another .45-70 very soon and that will be either the 1886 or the 1895C. I wonder what the decible comparison of ported vs not ported on these models are?

boom stick-

It is a light rail on the front of my guide gun, the front site is a WWG fiber optic sight. It really shows up well with a light mounted up front, even in total darkness. Not so much for hunting but great for tracking and camp defense. A lot easier to shoot a rifle without having to hold a flashlight in one hand. It is a standard marlin stock with 8 coats of spray on bed liner. THe kind you get out of a can a local auto parts store or walmart. I also used sealed the inside of the wood. Makes it just about weatherproof.

thebear_78...good stuff. i was thinking about that sight or a tritium one...good use of yer noggin on the bedliner stuff...that is a great camp defense gun par excelance! that is one sexy all go no show (well some show) rifle

THe trick to getting that bedliner to stick good is getting the stock good and roughed up. If you try to use it on the stock without removing the finish it will peel right off. It also seems to dry much better if you use light coats and then add texture by holding the can back 18" or so and giving little spritzes. It looks just like a synthetic when done and wears like iron.

thebear...i would think it would be a super synthetic since it gives you a better grip than plastic or fiberglass. i think this truckbed liner thing should catch on. heck if you already have a synthetic, why not. me, i like an oil finish and good checkering but that does make it more practical than mine

I would see them as a good "camp" gun or good rifle for up close. I would prefer the .450 marlin, but there probably isn't a whole lot of difference. I can only "imagine" what WWG charged for the work or the rifle!

Love the 45-70. What results do you guys get with Buffalo Bore up there as ya,ll use rifles
there alot.
Gene

I did all the work on mine myself. WWG does charge a pretty hefty price for thier work. Thier t/d is very nice though. A lot of moose hunting is done under 150 yards and I would say that probably close to 90% of bear hunting is done within 150 yards also. As a bear bait gun, camp gun, fishing backup, and tracking gun it is without peer. I would go with the 45/70 because it is a little more versatile. A 405gr JSP at 1950fps is plenty of power and plenty of power out to 200 yards. My load is dead on at 25 and 100 with the ghost rings, and +3 at 100 with the scout scope leave me dead on at 150 yards and 8" low at 200.

Thebear did you remove the wood finish or do any prep work to the stock or did you just apply thebedliner material? I have a standard Marlin 45-70 with a scout scope setup, I used the williams firesight and a ghost rear ( just tossed the screw in peep apeture) I find the firesight to be a very bright red dot and very quick. I have the warne quick release / return to zero rings. I like the hardcast gas checked 410 grain bullet over 53 grains of IMR 3031 ( Elmer Keith's elk load) By the way have any of you guys read the book Forty Years With the 45-70 by Paul Matthews, great book and a guy devoted to the 45-70.

Kward-

You must remove the wood finish. IT also really helps if you rought it up with medium sand paper. You want a pretty rough surface to apply the bed liner onto. If you try to do it on the old finish it will peel off. when applied to the rough surface this is one of the most durable finishes I have used. Also be sure to use a good sealer on the inside of the wood to keep it from swelling if it gets wet.

Did they make it ugly on purpose?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:


Did they make it ugly on purpose?

o.k. mr. smartypants...thats like a highschooler going to the jr. high to pick on kids that arnt his size...beauty is in the eye of the beholder...ive seen a lot of guys with some ugly women but i dont know how they are in bed. makes you wonder dont it.

Boom Stick
Next to my old 10 Ga. S/S there really is nothing i would walk into the brush with save my Marlin GS 45/70 and i have walked along ways in the Alaskan out back.. although my Brown Bear days are over i would still take the GS 45/70 over my 458 or any other of my rifles
into the brush .

Every time I read these posts about the 45-70 it causes me to chuckle.

I like the 45-70, and had one. Neat rifles, and provide a lot of close range thump.

I've been to Alaska 5 times, my brother lives there, and yet I don't know anybody that uses one for their primary hunting rifle. I do know one fellow who uses a 1886 chambered in 45-90...

My brother has talked about getting one for slinging over his back while he is fishing, but I know he wouldn't use it as a primary hunting rifle. The limiting factor is the range of the cartridge. It's a great "truck gun", but I wouldn't choose it as my rifle to travel up there to hunt with.

My opinion of the 45-70 is that there are a lot of folks who live in the lower 48 who perceive the 45-70 as "thee" gun to hunt "fire breathing, people killing, charging bears" with. Those who live in Alaska are more likely to just grab their 30-06 and go kill one.

Or their 300 Win mag, or the 338 Win Mag...

quote:

Originally posted by JBabcock:
Every time I read these posts about the 45-70 it causes me to chuckle.

I like the 45-70, and had one. Neat rifles, and provide a lot of close range thump.

I've been to Alaska 5 times, my brother lives there, and yet I don't know anybody that uses one for their primary hunting rifle. I do know one fellow who uses a 1886 chambered in 45-90...

My brother has talked about getting one for slinging over his back while he is fishing, but I know he wouldn't use it as a primary hunting rifle. The limiting factor is the range of the cartridge. It's a great "truck gun", but I wouldn't choose it as my rifle to travel up there to hunt with.

My opinion of the 45-70 is that there are a lot of folks who live in the lower 48 who perceive the 45-70 as "thee" gun to hunt "fire breathing, people killing, charging bears" with. Those who live in Alaska are more likely to just grab their 30-06 and go kill one.

Or their 300 Win mag, or the 338 Win Mag...

Thants kinda funy in a strange way JBabcock.
You see i lived in Alaska for a decade and all my kids were born there and most of the folks i know used a 30/30 winchester but then again all of them hunted Brown bear in groups of no less then two and always stayed togther so thay could double team the bear when it came time to kill it. the only guy i know that went hunting along was me and i started off packing nothing but my Side by Side 10 Ga untill i bought a 45/70.. then a buddy of mine bought one and it snow balled from there .. The funny thing about this is that was 1979. long before the guide gun came out ..
Now you say you have been to Alaska. well i guess thats like saying . I have been to Russia

thats great but were in Alaska ? SE , NW , Central Alaska, In most of south west alaska the blue berry brush is so thick and so tall trying to pack a normal bolt action rifle in would be nuts all the shots are quick and theres no way to use a scope the shots happen all to fast. your lucky to have more then 5 to 10 sec/ to bead in and fire ..
Maybe were your brother live its more open and you and your brother can use a normal bolt action rifle with a scope and all.
and it makes " Me " chuckle to read posts like yours .
Most of the folks here "live" in alaska.
and have lived there for more then 40 years
I left for the last time in 1991 .
But i do call the "Met" home and if you did live in alaska you would know what that ment.


Martin


PA Bullet's

Martin,

I've been to Nome. My brother lives there. I've also been all over the Anchorage and the surrounding area with work, and Kodiak too. Can you tell me of any guides that use the 45-70? I also know of a fellow that uses the 30-30. He's killed a huge Grizzly with it.

Again, I'm not saying the 45-70 doesn't work, and I'm very familiar with them. I owned a Marlin 1895 for a spell. But I still see them as a more of a fascination of those down south, than something that is real common as a hunting rifle up north.

So what you are saying that everybody in the town you live in uses them?

I personally think that using a 30-30 to hunt Brown Bear, shows some serious breeding problems within that family. Maybe Polish? There are so many other more appropriate cartridges available.

I never used one here in Alaska, but I used my .450 mag to body-slam "big boar" hogs down south. I never had one run off with it!

Far and away the most popular hunting rifles in Alaska are scoped bolt actions chambered in the 30-06, 300 win mag and 338 win mag, and for good reason.

The vast majority of "bear rifles" are fired occasionally at the range, and spend the rest of their lives slung on someones shoulder, or propped against a tree. Since only a fraction of a percentage of said rifles are ever used in a charge, opinions of what work best are based on theories, and not actual field use.

I see the guide gun as a very specialized weapon, not as a general purpose one. I also can't see scoping one, as it seems to defeat the fast handling of a ghost ring iron sight. The scope doesn't make up for the arced trajectory, nor does it make the chambering as powerful or useful as the 338 win mag.

Don't have one, and don't plan to get one. I've fired several, and they are pretty neat rigs. An iron sighted revolver is even handier, and a scoped medium to big bore rifle is more powerful and flatter shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by JBabcock:
Martin,

I've been to Nome. My brother lives there. I've also been all over the Anchorage area with work, and Kodiak too. Can you tell me of any guides that use the 45-70? I also know of a fellow that uses the 30-30. He's killed a huge Grizzly with it.

Again, I'm not saying the 45-70 doesn't work, and I'm very familiar with them. I owned a Marlin 1895 for a spell. But I still see them as a more of a fascination of those down south, than something that is real common as a hunting rifle up north.

So what you are saying that everybody in the town you live in uses them?

I personally think that using a 30-30 to hunt Brown Bear, shows some serious breeding problems within that family. Maybe Polish? There are so many other more appropriate cartridges available.

Not everyone In that town does.... of course not .

quote:

I personally think that using a 30-30 to hunt Brown Bear, shows some serious breeding problems within that family. Maybe Polish? There are so many other more appropriate cartridges available.

And i will be sure to tell the tribal council
in Metlakatla that you think there all/mostly
a bunch of inbred indians .that should be worth atleast a laugh .. Since there all Tsimshian .

What did you say your brothers name was again i sure dont want to be left out in the dark here when i tell them who it was that called them a bunch of inbred foolish Idiots.
i am sure his next trip down south in alaska will be one to remmber.

No you tell them it was me who called them that. I however wouldn't call anyone a fool.

quote:

Originally posted by JBabcock:
No you tell them it was me who called them that. I however wouldn't call anyone a fool.

You got it

JBabcock, your obvious appreciation of the .45-70 is accepted and the use of the venerable .30-30. I am not "Polish" and my family is not missing a link either. I think you are not being "civil" in that analogy and I personally think your comments are just that yours. I have lived here all my life and can tell you and others "bolt" guns are fine for their intended use but.........lever guns have been highly favored where I live and other parts - for good reason they are fast handling guns. Paul the Moderator, as for the supposed "arced trajectory" it doesn't cut with me. You may have shot some "weak" loads but with mine I can assure Sir it is at out to 200yds. as a easy as a shot as any of your "bolt" actions. Flat shooter, could very well be - you want to count on me to make the shot with my .45-70? you can take it to the bank! SPECIALIZED?! phooee! you guys take a rest, tell me what you shoot at? 500 yards? 700 yards? Come on, most of your shots as hunting or for protection is going to be within a 100yds! I have read most of the comments of this and that and how pompous some are, let us be a little more realistic - the lever gun of your choice will with do what your overpowered steroid built guns will do. You are more than welcome to my .02! I walk my life with trails and heights as Stevenson the "guide" does, are we both wrong? I have a .375RUM but it takes a back seat to my .45-70

I am POLISH, therefore have no reservations at all about using the term!

One of my first bosses was Polish, and he told the best Polish jokes I'd ever heard, he even had a Polish coffee mug

I personally find for the same recoil, a 338 win mag scoped bolt gun is a more versatile weapon, no not for 500 yds, but certainly out to 300. That is only my opinion, and to each there own. The 45-70 has many fans, and for good reason. All of us hunt in different locations, with different conditions and hence make different choices as to what we pack. I don't believe in any such thing as macho guns, I've always prescribed to shooting the biggest gun one can accurately shoot, accurately shot I happen to shoot the larger guns as accurately as the smaller and slower ones, so that's what I use.

I do have my eyes out for a nice used mdl 94 30-30, and am kicking myself for passing one up I came across last year, should have bought it when I spotted it vs thinking it over for a couple days and finding it sold when I went back to the gun store

Paul, if you come across a pre model in the .30-30 quite reasonable I most would be interested to buy if ------ you do not pick it up first. I've 2 .338's as well and there is a place for them in my home and in the field too. It is unfortunate for me not to be able use my bolt/scope as they are "choice" field guns. later

Well, to end the arguments about the popularity of the .45-70 in Alaska, do the following: Go to all the firing ranges around town, wherever you live in Alaska, and count the number of .45-70 rifles you see in a day. I assure you that you won't see many, and the reason why you won't has been said already.

No doubts in my mind that a .45-70 with the heaviest slugs would do quite a lot of damage at close range. However, be honest and tell me a number (in percentage) out of all your shots taken on moose that have been within 100 yards. Yes, if you only use a .45-70 you probably kill your moose with it, but most moose dropping to all guns are killed from 150 to 300 yards, not within 100. Out of all the moose I have killed, only one was 100 yards away. The rest have been around 200 yards, and last year's moose at 275 laser-measured distance.

A Remington factory 405-grain slug out of the .45-70 at 1330 fps, sighted at +12" at 100 yards drops to -43.1" at 300 yards. Energy = 1590 foot-pound.

A CB load with a lead 460-grain slug out of the same rifle at 1650 fps, sighted to hit the 100-yard mark at +7.8" drops to -30" at 300 yards. Energy at the muzzle = 2782 foot-pound.

The most energy produced from factory ammo with a 350-grain SP bullet is 3167 foot-pound at the muzzle.

The .454 Casull factory ammo with 300-grain bullets offer similar (a little lower perhaps) velocities at the muzzle as the .45-70.
-----------

By contrast, a .458 Win. Mag. Federal 500-grain TBBC, sighted to hit the 100-yard mark at +4.2", drops to -16.9" at 300 yards. However, this slug comes out the barrel at 2090 fps, with an energy of 4850 foot-pound.

Ray,

I agree with you completely. I've killed 2 Moose. The first was at about 200 yards. In fact I got to close, and then couldn't see. So I had to back up to get a shot. The second jumped out of his bed and a 45-70 would have worked fine. I've been there for 5 others though, and none of those shots were close. All would have presented some "guestamation" for the 45-70.

I was going to use my 45-70 for my first bear hunt, but as I thought about that, I realized that I would be at a dis-advantage as an out-of-state hunter. So I packed along my 300 Weatherby, I'm glad I did.

I want to reiterate that I like the 45-70, it just has it's limits. If I was a hog hunter, it probably would be my "go to gun", a 405 grain Remington at about 1750fps would do some serious "smack-down." Take that little pig...

But I would never advise anyone to take it to Alaska as their primary weapon. I've spent a few days along side the river banks stepping over salmon carcasses that were strewn about Grizzly tracks though, and that's the one place that I think a "Guide Gun" would really make sense. Short, light, and easy to pack on the back. Open sights would be my preference.

quote:

A Remington factory 405-grain slug out of the .45-70 at 1330 fps, sighted at +12" at 100 yards drops to -43.1" at 300 yards. Energy = 1590 foot-pound.

A CB load with a lead 460-grain slug out of the same rifle at 1650 fps, sighted to hit the 100-yard mark at +7.8" drops to -30" at 300 yards. Energy at the muzzle = 2782 foot-pound.

The most energy produced from factory ammo with a 350-grain SP bullet is 3167 foot-pound at the muzzle.

The .454 Casull factory ammo with 300-grain bullets offer similar (a little lower perhaps) velocities at the muzzle as the .45-70.

-------------
What brand are you using for 45/70 ? loaded ammo yuk.. loaded ammo like that is for grand mas old beater

Try .

Grizzly Cartridge Company

45-70+P 460 Grain WFNGC

Caliber: 45-70 +P
Bullet Wt: 460 Grain
Velocity: 1800 fps

45-70+P 400 Grain Hawk BCFP
Caliber: 45-70 +P
Bullet Wt: 400 Grain Hawk
Velocity: 2000 fps

All of the above loads are ment! for the marlin
lever action rifle. if you think i am full out it... Please contact Mike Rintoul .
info@grizzlycartridge.com.


Or try these rounds MENT for the Marlin Lever Action Rifle.

Buffalo Bore Ammunition Co

45/70 / 300gr. Speer Uni Core
2350 fps (3678 ft. lbs.)

45/70 / 405 gr. J.F.N.
(2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)

As above these round are ment for the Marlin Lever action rifle
-------------------------------
Or if you reload try this

.45-70 Pile-Driver
525 grain WLNGC
Powder H-4895 ---- 52.5 grains
Velocity 22" Bbl. 1820 FPS

Beartooth Bullets'

Well ? are you ready to stop buying grandma's old loaded rounds yet ?

MartinPotts: The loads I listed are factory loads. The ones you posted may be a little better, but not by much. That's one of the reasons why the .450 Alaskan was born (more speed, more energy than the .45-70).

Regardless of what figures come from manufacturers, the .45-70 is not as popular in Alaska as the .30-06, .300WM, .338WM, .375 H&h, .308, and even the .30-30. That said, at close range the .45-70 is a very potent cartridge, but as a bear stopper it can't compare to the .416 and the .458 bolt guns. I doubt any guide would use a "guide" gun in such a caliber, but if there is any who does, I am ready to listen.

The last five moose I shot were all under 40 yards away. The 45-70 would of worked fine for me (I own a guide gun)in these cases but I always cary my trusty H&H and all five moose dropped in there tracks with the first shot.