quote:

Originally posted by Ray:
MartinPotts: The loads I listed are factory loads. The ones you posted may be a little better, but not by much. That's one of the reasons why the .450 Alaskan was born (more speed, more energy than the .45-70).

Regardless of what figures come from manufacturers, the .45-70 is not as popular in Alaska as the .30-06, .300WM, .338WM, .375 H&h, .308, and even the .30-30. That said, at close range the .45-70 is a very potent cartridge, but as a bear stopper it can't compare to the .416 and the .458 bolt guns. I doubt any guide would use a "guide" gun in such a caliber, but if there is any who does, I am ready to listen.

Ray buddy .. I am still a registered Alaskan
and have been for more then 23 years
all my childered were born there my oldest was born in alaska in 1969... so no more about ...
Waht Alaskans do or think . i am an Alaskan.
.......

Well you may have a point about the guides ..
...I own know of about 20 on a small little island in alaska.. that are used . tio hunt seals ..Deer..and black bear .. I am the only one on that island i gues thats shot a brown bear with one .. so i guess its only in my small little world that folks use a guide gun.
and just for shit and giggles i do own a few other rifles ..
1 30/06
2 9.3x64's
1 Ruger 458 Win Mag
1 35x387 JC
1 BLR 50-110
1 270 Win
1 416 Rigby in a old Brno
1 Marlin GS 45/70
So your right i dont know what the hell i am talking about must be nice to be so young and! so smart.


Martin

PA Bullet's

Ray, "to end all arguments" - get a grip. Most of my shots are within a 100yds, try hunting and getting in a closer why don't ya. When you look a coin- there is two sides! ANYONE of you go to Garrets website and do a dig on his penetration tests. they penetrate according to his tests alot more than your little brain can figure but it may help to clear the cobwebs. You're ignorance is offensive. I reload my .45-70 with BTB 425 grains WLNGC stirred and powered with 52 grains of H322 at around 1900fps. It shoots .7" @ 100yds. I have shot Big bears with this and moose and can assure you're little brain it penetrates far better at these velocities than some of the bigger bores. Do you really need 2400fps in a 458 or a 416 cal to penetrate? Do you think the .45-70 at 1500fps a 100years ago did its job with either a 450 or a 500 grain slug? Is faster better to you? You're thoughts on ballistics is fine on paper but try being a little brave and get in close and do the job like it is suppose to be done. Hogwash!!! By the way my people have hunted up close and personal for centuries and we still live and feel like men. What does popularity have to do with this poll?

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:

quote:

A Remington factory 405-grain slug out of the .45-70 at 1330 fps, sighted at +12" at 100 yards drops to -43.1" at 300 yards. Energy = 1590 foot-pound.

A CB load with a lead 460-grain slug out of the same rifle at 1650 fps, sighted to hit the 100-yard mark at +7.8" drops to -30" at 300 yards. Energy at the muzzle = 2782 foot-pound.

The most energy produced from factory ammo with a 350-grain SP bullet is 3167 foot-pound at the muzzle.

The .454 Casull factory ammo with 300-grain bullets offer similar (a little lower perhaps) velocities at the muzzle as the .45-70.

-------------
What brand are you using for 45/70 ? loaded ammo yuk.. loaded ammo like that is for grand mas old beater

Try .

Grizzly Cartridge Company

45-70+P 460 Grain WFNGC

Caliber: 45-70 +P
Bullet Wt: 460 Grain
Velocity: 1800 fps

45-70+P 400 Grain Hawk BCFP
Caliber: 45-70 +P
Bullet Wt: 400 Grain Hawk
Velocity: 2000 fps

All of the above loads are ment! for the marlin
lever action rifle. if you think i am full out it... Please contact Mike Rintoul .
info@grizzlycartridge.com.


Or try these rounds MENT for the Marlin Lever Action Rifle.

Buffalo Bore Ammunition Co

45/70 / 300gr. Speer Uni Core
2350 fps (3678 ft. lbs.)

45/70 / 405 gr. J.F.N.
(2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.)

As above these round are ment for the Marlin Lever action rifle
-------------------------------
Or if you reload try this

.45-70 Pile-Driver
525 grain WLNGC
Powder H-4895 ---- 52.5 grains
Velocity 22" Bbl. 1820 FPS

Beartooth Bullets'

Well ? are you ready to stop buying grandma's old loaded rounds yet ?

i just got the pile drivers...thanks for the load info


man this forum got hotter than over cooked microwave cheese pizza on the roof of yer mouth. ouch! i love the 45-70 but it is a defensive, brush and "HUNTING" round. i also hunt with a bow so the 45-70 seems like sniping.

JAEGERS IM A BUFFALO AND WILD BOAR GUIDE AND I EVEN USE THE MARLIN GUIDE GUNAS A STOPPER CHARGES ,I TAKE A LOT OF BUFFALOS WITH IT EVEN WITH SOFTH HOLLOW POINTS THE BEST RESULTS GARRETS POINTS.JUAN

quote:

Originally posted by grizz007:
Ray, "to end all arguments" - get a grip. Most of my shots are within a 100yds, try hunting and getting in a closer why don't ya. When you look a coin- there is two sides! ANYONE of you go to Garrets website and do a dig on his penetration tests. they penetrate according to his tests alot more than your little brain can figure but it may help to clear the cobwebs. You're ignorance is offensive. I reload my .45-70 with BTB 425 grains WLNGC stirred and powered with 52 grains of H322 at around 1900fps. It shoots .7" @ 100yds. I have shot Big bears with this and moose and can assure you're little brain it penetrates far better at these velocities than some of the bigger bores. Do you really need 2400fps in a 458 or a 416 cal to penetrate? Do you think the .45-70 at 1500fps a 100years ago did its job with either a 450 or a 500 grain slug? Is faster better to you? You're thoughts on ballistics is fine on paper but try being a little brave and get in close and do the job like it is suppose to be done. Hogwash!!! By the way my people have hunted up close and personal for centuries and we still live and feel like men. What does popularity have to do with this poll?

Well, my intention was not to offend you, nor anybody else in here. I posted some of the factory ammo ballistics not to prove a point, but to indicate that the .45-70 regardless of what we may say is not a very popular cartridge in Alaska. That is not meant to offend anybody, since I am pointing out the facts.

Again, not trying to argue with you or anybody else in here: Just go to your favorite range in Alaska, and count the .45-70's being used this week.

I already said that there there is no doubts in my mind that at close range the .45-70 is an outstanding cartridge. I also said that most hunters use other more potent cartridges simply because most animals in Alaska are not killed at close range. I was not talking about bears, but about the average moose, caribou, bison, deer, and elk. These facts about Alaska hunters have nothing to do with wanting more velocity, but more about using a rifle that reaches out there. Most city folks and hunters have to travel quite a distance to the hunting grounds. For example, quite a lot of hunters from Anchorage hunt in the same areas of the interior where I hunt. Most shots on moose in this area (off the Elliott) are taken from around 175 to 250 yards, simply because we watch the large clearings or low growth where the moose tend to hangout. None of these guys, including myself, use .45-70's, but we all may have a .45-70 at home for other uses.

What does popularity has to do with this poll? Nothing.I answered that poll by clicking on a button, followed by a vote. Now, my post was intended as a dialog with posters here, not to interfere with the poll.

quote:

Originally posted by MartinPotts:

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:
MartinPotts: The loads I listed are factory loads. The ones you posted may be a little better, but not by much. That's one of the reasons why the .450 Alaskan was born (more speed, more energy than the .45-70).

Regardless of what figures come from manufacturers, the .45-70 is not as popular in Alaska as the .30-06, .300WM, .338WM, .375 H&h, .308, and even the .30-30. That said, at close range the .45-70 is a very potent cartridge, but as a bear stopper it can't compare to the .416 and the .458 bolt guns. I doubt any guide would use a "guide" gun in such a caliber, but if there is any who does, I am ready to listen.

Ray buddy .. I am still a registered Alaskan
and have been for more then 23 years
all my childered were born there my oldest was born in alaska in 1969... so no more about ...
Waht Alaskans do or think . i am an Alaskan.
.......

Well you may have a point about the guides ..
...I own know of about 20 on a small little island in alaska.. that are used . tio hunt seals ..Deer..and black bear .. I am the only one on that island i gues thats shot a brown bear with one .. so i guess its only in my small little world that folks use a guide gun.
and just for shit and giggles i do own a few other rifles ..
1 30/06
2 9.3x64's
1 Ruger 458 Win Mag
1 35x387 JC
1 BLR 50-110
1 270 Win
1 416 Rigby in a old Brno
1 Marlin GS 45/70
So your right i dont know what the hell i am talking about must be nice to be so young and! so smart.


Martin

PA Bullet's

Martin: No offense intended. I was just pointing out that most guides want a little more speed out of the 300 to 500-grain slugs, hence the .416's and .458's. This extra speed is not necessarily because anybody wants to shoot farther, but because they seek maximum punch and penetration.

I have been in Alaska for quite a while, too. I got here with the military in the '70's. Retired near Fairbanks in 1994 after 20 years in the AF.

i love the 45-70 ! its a thumper of a round!

Cold,

I love the 45-70 to, it is truly a unique cartridge, and the fact it's over a 100 years old and still selling is a testimony to it's versatility. There is no question that it is a real thumper.

However, that being said, is it the best cartridge for hunting up North? For some maybe, but for the majority, no way. I've never tested the theory, but I think that I could shoot a bolt action just as fast as a lever action.

Here's what I think would make for a truly awesome "Alaska Hunting cartridge." Take the 450 Marlin, neck it down to a 375 caliber, load it with any of the current crop of .375 bullets, chamber it in a stainless steel rifle with a 21" barrel and CRF action, and that would be a short, handy, thumper.

As for the cartridge, there already is the 376 Steyr, that for all intent and purposes is the same thing ballistically as my fantasy wildcat.

And the reality is that both of my 338 Win Mags do the same thing, for a lot less money. So, I'll stick with them. You fellows that like your 45-70's are welcome to hunt with them. And they'll work fine for you, I would never advise anyone to take one to Alaska as their weapon of choice for their "dream hunt" in Alaska. It's a much different scenario for someone who lives there.

I've had the chance to do it a number of times, and common sense won out all 5 times. 2 of the 5 hunts would have been no problem for the 45-70, the other 3 would have meant probably coming home empty handed. I'm not willing to take the chance with my money.

JBabcock: Another excellent Alaska cartridge is the .375 H&H with 300-grain bullets, but since most .375's a little heavy, the .30-06, .300WM and .338WM are the ones most used. However, I would think that a .375 Taylor with a 22" barrel would make a great AK cartridge.

A coworker has used a .45-70 to kill moose a couple times, but he usually takes shots within 150 yards. This is easy to do from a stand or from a blind, but a little difficult to do in large open fields where the moose see you from afar. The big and older moose are more difficult to approach than younger and inexperienced ones.

Its uncommon to go to the range and not see a guide gun up herer. I can't remember that many times. While not ideal for large open areas or burns it is a very good close range big game rifle. For shots out to 200 yards there is nothing wrong with it. The 375 H&H is a great all around big game rifle so are several other calibers. Its the combination of size, weight, and power that makes the guide guns so popular.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray:
JBabcock: Another excellent Alaska cartridge is the .375 H&H with 300-grain bullets, but since most .375's a little heavy, the .30-06, .300WM and .338WM are the ones most used. However, I would think that a .375 Taylor with a 22" barrel would make an great AK cartridge.

A coworker has used a .45-70 to kill moose a couple times, but he usually takes shots within 150 yards. This is easy to do from a stand or from a blind, but a little difficult to do in large open fields where the moose see you from afar. The big and older moose are more difficult to approach than younger and inexperienced ones.

ray...agreed the 375 taylor is the "ideal alaska round" not that i have any alaska experience yet. i agree. and with the 200 yard limitation for the 45-70. i want to build a 375 taylor or something like it for alaska in a blr. but i want to hunt with the 45-70 because it is my pet cart

J,

Sounds like you are describing the 350 rem mag necked up, and IMHO, the 350 would be a better choice given the available bullets.

Phil (458WIN) must be busy, as I've not heard him chime in on this thread. Interesting none-the-less...

I've got a Guide Gun in .450 and it's a wonderful carbine in every way - short and handy as hell and hits hard. It's my truck gun and hiking gun, and here in the Southwest it's great peace of mind here where mtn lion are common. I'm not sure I'd choose it as my primary hunting rifle on an Alaska trip, but then again I'd not feel naked with it either. If it's range is limited then that means you pass up a shot now and then or stalk to within range as our brothers do who bow hunt with great success.

It's all a matter of personal preference really. Hunting with a 45-70 means you've got to be a skilled stalker and get within range is all it means. Once you've done that you'll have all the gun you need when you put a good bullet where it's supposed to go...

458rugernp1...

that is my point exactly...i bowhunt so the 45-70 out to 200 yards is like cheating.

its not hunting if you shoot an animal from 400 yards it is sniping. i think the hunting world would be better if people started to develop their stalking skills. just like remote hunting is an oxymoron i said on another thread if a laser-rifle came out and you could easily kill an animal from 2000 yards is it hunting and would you want to do it? NO! you get nothing out of it. as a wise hunter said you kill in order to have hunted not hunt in order to kill. if a rifle keeps you under 200 yards the world would be a better place in most circumstances

quote:

Originally posted by JBabcock:
a 405 grain Remington at about 1750fps would do some serious "smack-down." Take that little pig...

I own an old factory engraved Browning model 78 and LOVE the weapon. In fact, that gun will never leave my family as long as I'm living. Yes, I even have a soft spot for the 45-70...HOWEVER...when hunting hogs in Louisiana a few years back with my Browning 1886, I had an interesting experience. I took two shots at a running hog and dropped him. I thought I had missed the head shot with the first round and brought him down with the second (a spine shot). The hog had no reaction at all to the first round fired. Hauled that 150 pound piece of pork to the skinning pole and when cleaning the skull up, I found a flattened 405 grain slug embedded in the lower jaw. It hadn't even broken the jaw and I doubt that hog would have been any worse for the wear had the second shot not been true. I vowed never to use "soft" or "standard velocity" ammo in that calibre ever again.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

john the greek...using remington factory ammo for the 45-70 is like unly using first gear in a muscle car, the rem factory ammo is for guns that cant hold up. if you have a strong action you can use the good stuff. i believe that soft slow ammo has given the 45-70 a bad name. glad to hear the good response from this thread

I own a custom .45-70 CB. I am good friends with some of the most voracious .45-70 proponents in the country.

And I toally agree with much that has been said on this thread.

The .45-70 when used within it's design limits which have increased dramatically in with the advent of modern loads and bullets. All this makes the old .45-70 one of the best short range "brush busting" rounds on the planet when used on THIN SKINNED game.

Which include any and all animals in North America. In my estimation it is one of the best hog rifles in the world.

And given the fact that it is available in such convienent easy to carry rifles allows for all the more appeal.

When I lived in AK I found myself carrying my Stainless M-70 carbine in .375H&H most of the time. Because it is what I was most comfortable and competent with at the time.

Is anyone using one of the Marlin Cowboy guns in 45-70? I was wondering what your accuracy is like. I had one of the very first guide guns several years ago. The most fun I had with it was shooting it after dark to watch the fire blow out of the muzzle and ports. B O O M !

You might check out the march issue of Rifle magazine. Ed Stevenson has been in Alaska as a Master guide for 3 decades I think it said and he chooses the lever guns with the 45-70 being listed as one of his favorite bear hammers.

BEAR HAMMER.

quote:

Originally posted by AEI:
Is anyone using one of the Marlin Cowboy guns in 45-70? I was wondering what your accuracy is like. I had one of the very first guide guns several years ago. The most fun I had with it was shooting it after dark to watch the fire blow out of the muzzle and ports. B O O M !

AEI

Mine was shooting like 2" at a 100 before I did all the spiff up work to it. It does about the same now but that is mainly operator, the gun is REALLY accurate for what it is.

I set up a Marlin 95 as a real "guide gun" nearly twenty years ago for my wife's rifle and camp loaner by lopping a few inches off of the barrel of a Marlin M-95 rifle. Loaded with Buffalo Bore 430 gr hard cast bullets it is a serious bear rifle.
Thie past season I had a packer who caried a stainless guide gun with the same loads. I cannot imagine a better rifle to pack for a real hunter or for everyday use in big bear country

I built a "guide gun" ten or twelve years ago by sawing four inches off of a Marlin M-95 45-70 for my wife to carry. I prefer a Browning 1886 45-70 as it is smoother and holds more ammo. Both are loades with 430 gr Buffalo Bore hard cast bullets. I carry mine daily when guiding salmon fishermen on the Alaskan peninsula but prefer my 458 Mauser when guiding bear hunters. Still I would not feel unarmed at all if required to use the 45-70.

*** WHAT KIND OF BEAR ? ***

I'm no expert in any sense , -- but facts is facts , and I've been studying the subject of Bear Attacks for a few yrs. now .

Then again , not a complete arm-chair type , -- have spent some time in Bruin Country ( Rocky Mts. ) , and have watched Grizzly on a few occasions , and many Black Bear , up close and personal .

Just want to respectfully input a perspective .

Re : Use of the .45-70 , -- To my view , there's two major screening criteria .

# 1 , --- Is what the shooter hopes the gun will do ? -- If he recons to " Hunt " Brown Bear or Grizzly , -- there are better choices that will reach out better , with flatter trajectories , and still have lots of thump . -- IMHO , one of the .375's is a good choice with Premium partitioned bullets and a bright, low-variable Scope .

If you're looking for a pure Bear-DEFENSE Rifle , -- and the only game in town is to , Stop - a - Charge ; -- the .45-70 can accomplish this , -- but the amount of lead a charging Bear can absorb is Legendary , -- so IMHO , even with Garrett's or Buffalo B's best , the cartridge is not ideal ; ( a .458 probably is , IF you can shoot it well ) .

# 2 --- What weight and Rifle-OAL is the Shooter willing to carry , and what do brush conditions dictate ?

For example , if the shooter is primarily after Fish , and needs both hands free W / a handy carbine on his pack for last-ditch Bear Defense only ; -- or if he's going to be crawling through stream-bed areas / Alders all day ; -- or if it's a backpack with every Oz. important , -- then a short .45-70 is lots better than a sharp stick , and would be a good choice .

Again , my intent is not to pontificate anything , but to put my thinking out there for comment by more experienced hands than myself .

---------- MMCOUGAR .

My personal preference, and that's what it all comes down to because we need to figure out what we want and what compromises we'll make, is to carry a heavy handgun where portability is the primary factor. I know, the biggest handguns pale in comparison to rifles, well except the 500 S&W but it's too heavy/bulky for me, so I pack a 480 w/ 400's @ 1200 fps or 460's @ 1050 fps. If I'm in a situation where I really feel I need to carry a rifle for bear protection and that over-rides any other considering, I have a 22" barreled 458 Lott.

The good thing is, most of us will never face a real charge in our lives. Nothing like seeing bears in the wild being bears and leaving you alone to let you know that is what they prefer doing, and your bearanoia will fade away in time. Also realizing you're at least 10 times as likely to be killed in a car reck in AK than you are to get et by a bar.

Lastly, I avoid sitations where I only feel confortable with my 458 Lott in my hands. I figure that's akin to the argument of whats the best concealed carry handgun based on ones penchant for hanging around rough bars at the wee hours of the morning.

quote:

Again , my intent is not to pontificate anything , but to put my thinking out there for comment by more experienced hands than myself .

mmconcolor,

The gentleman who posted right before you is one of the most experienced Brown Bear guides operating in Alaska today. His articles are often published in different magazines.

His name is Phil Shoemaker. If he say's it will work, you can be assured, based on experience, that it will work just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I built a "guide gun" ten or twelve years ago by sawing four inches off of a Marlin M-95 45-70 for my wife to carry. I prefer a Browning 1886 45-70 as it is smoother and holds more ammo. Both are loades with 430 gr Buffalo Bore hard cast bullets. I carry mine daily when guiding salmon fishermen on the Alaskan peninsula but prefer my 458 Mauser when guiding bear hunters. Still I would not feel unarmed at all if required to use the 45-70.

Phil have you ever killed or seen killed a big coastal brownie with a .45-70?

I have no doubt in the world that .45-70 with proper loads is potent medicine. I am just wondering if you've ever used one to kill a big bear or know anyone who has?


Thanks for your input.

Greg

REPLY TO -- JBABCOCK

Roger that , J ,

I was a little Off-Topic in the strict sense of the original Question / Post , but was interested to hear what the more experienced Folks in AK. thought of my evaluation ( to date ) of the .45-70's .

I've noticed on other Forum-Sites , there sometimes bumps up a heated debate on whether the new .45-70 Super Cartridges , ( hot - LBT types ) , -- are adequate for Bear , -- especially Large Bear . --- They debate this endlessly , and yet the distinction between a close range Attack , and a hunting situation is seldom made .

My take to date , is that Hot and Heavy LBT .45-70's are not adequate to stop a close range Attack from a large Bear .

I believe that evaluation , because I've read many accounts ( from BC and Alaska ) , as well as Doc. Herrero ( and other Wildlife Biologist types ) ; that tell of some 95 % of all Bear aggressions are spotted by the target Human at no more than 55 Yds ! ( with a healthy percent closer than that ) .

We know , ( and I know personally ) , that Bears charge at 35 to 44 FPS. ( they've been clocked many times on film , and by observers ) .

If all that be true , -- that gives an armed Pilgrim no more than 5 seconds ( and downwards to one second ), to get his rifle in hand , aim and fire .

With all the adrenaline and stress that's going to be involved , -- I'm figuring most of us would be lucky to average one shot into the center of a frontal Bear ; and if the charge is continuous , and starts at 55 yds. -- maybe three shots tops .

I believe and realize that Bear Attacks , where contact is made , are very rare . -- But the possibility should not be minimized if you plan to spend much outdoor time in remote B.C or Alaska .

I don't care much , how rare Bear Attacks are ; -- they're on the increase in many areas that I personally want to forrage around in .

I think it's a legitimate question to ask what is the very best , Pure Bear-Defense Rifle ,
( or Shotgun ) , that I can carry in high-population Bear range .

And what Shooting strategies or techniques are best employed in a Bear Attack .

I could care less that most Attacks turn out to be Bluffs . -- I am only concerned with surviving the ones that turn out to be real .

Don't want to get too dramatic , -- but life or death can ride on the choice .

Don't believe I contradicted anything put forth above , -- I'm learning here .

But , so far , I'm thinking if you're lucky enough to get that only shot into any large Bruin ; and you don't hit the Brain or Spine ,
a .45-70 would be marginal , and only a true African type Stopping round would be " enough gun " .

--------- Regards , --- MMCOUGAR .

Interesting thoughts. I respect 458Win's opinion, but I would still rather use my 338. Now if I lived there, I would probably own a guide gun.

I distinctly remember an afternoon fishing the Pilgrim River. There were Salmon carcasses everywhere, and lot's of bear track. The willow came right down to the river bank, and I had that "hair standing up on your neck" feeling quite a few times as we worked our way down along the river. The Dollys were biting, so we kept fishing. But that was one day that I sure wished I had a guide gun draped over my shoulder.

I didn't even have my 44 with me. I usually load it with 300 grain hard cast when we are hunting Moose and expect to spend some nights on the tundra. It would be kinda of hard to get a rifle into action in a small tent, especially if there was a bear standing on it...

you'd tackle a Brn Bear with a 44 mag and think twice of doing it with a 45-70 and appropritate loads

After 4 days of Moose hunting, my clothes are coated in blood, and the game bags are dripping with blood. I'm "bait."

Now it's time to sleep in your back pack tent.

I didn't say I'd hunt a Brown Bear with a 44, but I'd sure use one at point blank range. I'd much rather have a pistol loaded with hard cast bullets for use at 10 feet, than trying to get a rifle moving while I'm sleeping in my sleeping bag. Try it some time.

quote:

After 4 days of Moose hunting, my clothes are coated in blood, and the game bags are dripping with blood. I'm "bait."

you sere are brave babcock...i wont surf when i have cut myself or when there are seals around (seal=shark food)

gives me the heebie jeebies...its that or just fear induced common sense.

there is rumor of marlin coming out with a stainless 50-ak this sounds good to me

Babcock: excuse me for saying so but I think you're full of shit! An never been to Alaska let alone hunted there.
Your last post more or less proves that or at the very least proves you know nothing about basic survival in the bush...bloody clothes in your tent, bloody game bags near your tent, etc. An surely if you have a 10' back packing tent you must have one hell of a back to pack it on
Also if that brownie is within 10' of you he'll cover that 10' in less than one heartbeat...you aren't getting out of that bag to wield any weapon!

yup...

quote:

Originally posted by JBabcock:
yup...

Looks a lot like Alaska to me!

Cats I think you may be out of "your" element. Pontificate on Africa all you want. Many a grizzly has been killed with a 44 mag and even less up here in the heat of the moment. As far as 45-70's go load with a good hard cast Buffalo Bore 430 gr HC at 2200 ft per second and will penetrate with any 458WM. I don't know what your standard for "popularity" with the 45-70 is but there are more sold in Alaska than any other state. That's my standard and I've been carrying one for almost 20 years.

Cats,

Here's another pic just for you. If you look closely in the lower left hand corner, you'll see the method we use for packing our tents around

This was the coldest hunt I've ever experienced. The river froze up completely over night. Way below zero. I was Caribou hunting, I didn't get one. You can't see it in this photo, but the "Tell ya later" Creek dredge is in the background.

Where I'm standing, there were 3 or 4 other old mining shacks. "Tundra Grizzlies" have been walking along side them and rubbing on the shacks so long that there was a trail. The bears walk in the same spot everytime and create these odd depressions, really cool looking.

Ah, yes. The 'TACTICAL WHEELBARROW'!
Often seen at various 'pit shoots' all across America!
Very effective.

That picture LOOKS cold.

what is the picture suppose to prove?? that someone..(you) killed an average bull moose?
I had and now my son has an outfiitng bus. out of Cordova . Most my family still lives on the Kenai Penn in around Copper River.
I slept many a night under the stars but never with bloody clothes, food,etc in camp...only an idiot or a fool would do that in bear country

quote:

Originally posted by Bear Paw Jack:
Cats I think you may be out of "your" element. Pontificate on Africa all you want. .

Bear Paw, I'm not in any way defending CATS, but I'd like to know what Africa has to do with this string! Why is it that everytime I visit this forum, someone here makes snide remarks about people who have been lucky enough to hunt Africa? Talk about makeing a person feel welcome!

I was extremely lucky to work for a very large International Airline, and that made it possible for me to hunt ALASKA,almost every year since 1978, as well as Canada, and AFRICA,and several of the lower 48, for just about everything that peaked my interest,a few times over the years, and the US Army made it posible to "hunt" South East Asia. That fact doesn't make me any more, or less of a blue-collar hunter than I have always been since my birth, on a scrabble Hill Country Texas cattle ranch, in the 1930s. The fact that a person has hunted Africa, in no way, disqualifies him to speak on his experiences in Alaska, or on firearms used on large "BITE-BACK"animals, no matter where they live.

I agree with you on the magnum pistols in an emergency, and when in one's tent at night, simply because it is easier to use under those cercunstances, and is far better than a prayer. However, a 45-70 is far more effective, if in a place where it can be used! wouldn't you agree? If you agree with that, it would seem to me you would agree a 375 H&H would be better yet!

I have several 45-70s in different types of rifles, but the only one that goes to Alaska with me is an old Marlin streight stock lever gun that I lobbed off the barrel to 16 1/4", and extended the magazine to the muzzle, and mounted a LYMAN reciever sight, and a hooded heavy white bead up front. In this rifle I use very hot RUGER No1 loads, that would trash this little rifle if used on a regular bases, with 450 gr Woodliegh soft points, designed for a 450 3 1/4" NE, carried on a sling while fishing in Alaska's rivers. The rifle is also in Camp at all times ready. I also carry a side arm while hunting with my hunting rifle, a Whitworth African Express 375 H&H, with a 3-9X40 scope, and 300 gr Nosler partition bullets @ 2550 fps. There is no way I'd trade the 375H&H for any 45-70 for hunting in Alaska. That statement is, in no way, putting down the old 45-70, it is just that I know it's limitations, and since it cost no more I use something that is better suited to anything I might run into, close, or far!

I simply do not understand the anger it ingenders in some folks when the short-comings of any cartridge,are pointed out! Since we are not, by law, restricted to only one firearm, we can use what ever we want.

I have a Ruger No1,the Marlin I mentioned, a Pedersoli double rifle, and Pedersoli Sharps, all in 45-70, and I dearly love them all, but I'm under no illusion that these arms are somehow magic, they are what they are, a nice, fun old cartridge to shoot, and hunt Moose, and whitetail in the woods of Canada, and are all perfect for hunting Black Bear, over bait. They are not, in my opinion, the best choice for going into the weeds after a gut shot Brown bear, but then few rifles are! Still, I'd feel far better with the 375H&H, or even a 300 win mag, than a 45-70 in any rifle.

There is nothing wrong with hunting with the 45-70, as long as it is legal,and you use it within it's limitations. I don't see the problem with pointing this out, but maybe I'm wrong, I was once back in 1948!
BYE!!!!!!!!!!!