I'm glad you aren't defending cats. I'm not down talking someone who has been lucky enough to have gone to Africa. I would like to go myself. That said, I infured from Cats little signature that he was somehow more familiar with Africa than Alaska. Not sure I believe either about him but that's neither hear nor there between you and I. I not only agree that a magnum pistol is handier at night in a tent it's a practise I have long held. Yes it is handier than any rifle as far as being able to swing it around. Hell I would take a large knife to trying to swing a rifle around in a tent. And I agree that a 45-70 would be far more effective than a magnum pistol and that's why I carry mine so often when I am tooling around in the bush. Now when it comes to the next prim rose your walking me down, NO I don't agree. Now it so happens I am fairly familiar with the 375H&H myself having my Sako for some twenty years or so and having had a number of Winchester Mod 70's that didn't feed all that well, and I admit a major pile of the game I have shot has been with my 375, BUT do I think it is more effective? NO. Now this is where so many people get off the track. It isn't just the caliber we're talking about here the caliber without a bullet won't kill anything. I am a believer in quality bullets. I use nosler partitions and have used barnes and find them to be pretty darn effective and penetrate fairly well. But they DON'T penetrate like a 430 gr Hard Cast from Buffalo Bore Bullets and you can take that to the bank. Now if you said a remington 405 or some such yes I would have to concede the point. But you didn't you just made a general statement as fact. Now I'm certainly not putting down the 375, It's a pretty fine all around alaska cartridge. But for close up and personal with bears or anything that I KNOW I am going to be within 100 yards or less I don't have any doubt that the 430 grain Hard Cast Buffalo Bore Bullet will outperform (penetrate don't want to make a general statement that might get confused) any premium bullet in 375. So why would I use the 375 because it's got a good scope and I feel more comfortable reaching out a ways with it than with my open site 45-70. And I am a meat hunter and would prefer to have the feezer full than "pontificate" on the merits of the 45-70. But I also carry the 45-70 for a reason. I believe it to be as good as it gets with the right loads under dicey conditions. Been there don't like the feeling. It also sounds like you have got some pretty good experience yourself and have a good feel with what your comfortable with. That's all I am saying. We have to be comfortable with what we carry and there's no point in somebody else knocking it. By the way I'm not defending JBabcock either. Either he took peotic license about how bloody his clothes were or he ain't to bright.

I have carried either a Browning 1886 carbine or Marlin M-95 45-70 with either my own hot handloads or more recently Buffalo Bore 430 gr loads every summer and fall for over twenty some years for bear protection when guiding salmon and trout fishermen and sometimes when guiding moose and brown bear hunting clients.
BUT, to answer a previous poster, no I have never had to shoot a bear with it and have never seen a brown bear killed with one.
I have personally killed numerous large brown bears with the .30-06, the .9.5x63, the .375 H&H, the .416 Rem, the .458 Win and .505 Gibbs and seen many, many more killed with everything from the 30-06 thru the .338 and .378 Wby.
I have also done enough bullet testing with my 458 and my 45-70 and I feel comfortable in the knowledge that the 430 gr Buffalo Bore hard cast bullet in the 45-70 is a serious big bear basher. If anyone gets mauled while he is carrying one it is probably not the rifle, caliber or the bullet's fault.

quote:

By the way I'm not defending JBabcock either. Either he took peotic license about how bloody his clothes were or he ain't to bright.

You don't have to defend me. When you are 100 miles away from town, and 35 miles away from where you dropped off the truck and trailor, and you've killed a couple of Moose, your going to have some blood on your clothes.

I absolutely hate dealing with game meat that hasn't been handled properly, so all of it goes into game bags.

The Grizzlies aren't around every bush on the tundra, and I'm sure they prefer the gut pile as opposed to dealing with man smell. But if one comes snooping around, and decides to stick his nose into my tent, a 44 loaded with hard cast will work just fine.

I hope I never have to find out, and I didn't lose any sleep worrying about it.

I've shot those Buffalo Bore 430's hard cast loads from Tim Sundles. They were accurate out of my 1895, but man did they recoil. I think the 350's would work well too. Those were the ones I was going to hunt Grizzly with.

So Cats, what's the name of your son's outfit? I've been to Cordova a few times might run into him. Is it still running under the same name you started or is it changed? What all do you guide for? Do you specialize?

A few thoughts on the above : ---

I don't reckon to come into this with value judgements , because I'm new here , -- and I ain't on anybodys side , -- just dealing with the content .

What rings true with me is that the great new .45-70 loads , ( warm / heavy / hardcasts ), are good ( maybe ideal ) for specialized times when you need a compact , light , carbine , -- that will cycle fast and has a goodly magazine capacity . -- In its heavier loadings , it has a lot of thump for large tough animals .

But there is no way that it compares with a true ( yes, African Style ) back-up Stopping Rifle . -- The money shot on a Charging Bear - Frontal presentation is a center-of-mass chest/aorta shot , not because that shot is an instant stop ( like a CNS hit ) , -- but because it's what you will , most probably , be able to bring off under the stress of a Charge .

The great .45-70 is a specialized cartridge ; -- it can be stretched to do almost anything in the propper rifle , -- it can even be tortured to do long distance work ( creedmore style ) ; -- but it's only IDEAL , for close in , large animal hunting .

---- Maybe only a fool will crawl into the sleeping bag with blood soaked clothes on , in Bear Country -- but any lucky soul that's field cleaned and or quartered up a large meat animal is going to reek of kill smell . -- What the hell's expected ? -- Change into a Tuxedo ? --- Bears can sniff out a killed rabbit two miles away .

I don't think anybody on any serious Forum should call another , -- " full of shit " .
Even if it's pretty bad , you got to figure maybe the poor bastard's had a snoot full and made a few exagerations , or likes to talk story .

I thought JBABCOCK had good points on .45-70 and Bruins.

The .44 Mag handgun is a weapon of last resort in terms of Bear stopping , -- but come to that , I'd sure hate to be without one .

----- And finally , there's nothing wrong about parlaying the knowledge of Africa Hunters and P.H.'s into the business of Stopping a Bear Charge , and/or hunting large critters , for that matter . Anybody interested , can't afford to turn your back on a body of knowledge and experience like Africa produces .


---------------- MMCOUGAR .

quote:

Originally posted by Bear Paw Jack:
So Cats, what's the name of your son's outfit? I've been to Cordova a few times might run into him. Is it still running under the same name you started or is it changed? What all do you guide for? Do you specialize?

I don't guide for anything anymore my lisc. has expired as I sold my 38' twin screw to my son. Whom now guides he lives near Eagle River but runs the "Miss Priss" out of Cordova area. He is not a "specialist" as you refer to but rather runs fishing trips/bear viewing trips for the tourist crowd in summer to make some $$ then offers goat,deer, moose,black bear and brown hunts later. If you wish you can PM me your imfo and I will forward it to him

Double post...

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

BUT, to answer a previous poster, no I have never had to shoot a bear with it and have never seen a brown bear killed with one.
I have personally killed numerous large brown bears with the .30-06, the .9.5x63, the .375 H&H, the .416 Rem, the .458 Win and .505 Gibbs and seen many, many more killed with everything from the 30-06 thru the .338 and .378 Wby.
I have also done enough bullet testing with my 458 and my 45-70 and I feel comfortable in the knowledge that the 430 gr Buffalo Bore hard cast bullet in the 45-70 is a serious big bear basher. If anyone gets mauled while he is carrying one it is probably not the rifle, caliber or the bullet's fault.

Phil,

I also believe that the .45-70 with proper loads would be a very good bear round. I was just curious if you'd ever had the oportunity to kill one with it.

Thanks for the reply.

One post on this..You be the judge.Winchester ammuntion in the .458 Win mag pushes a 510 grain bullet at 2040 fps.The 45-70 in the 1895 CB pushes a 525 grain cast bullet at 1900+ fps.
All of these loads were pressure checked under 40,000 PSI with the 45-70's (40,000 CUP/42,740 PSI)suggested limits.


I think a 525 grain cast bullet over 1900 fps will wreek havoc on anything it comes in contact with.But that is my opinion..

Jayco

quote:

Originally posted by jaycocreek:
One post on this..You be the judge.Winchester ammuntion in the .458 Win mag pushes a 510 grain bullet at 2040 fps.The 45-70 in the 1895 CB pushes a 525 grain cast bullet at 1900+ fps.
All of these loads were pressure checked under 40,000 PSI with the 45-70's (40,000 CUP/42,740 PSI)suggested limits.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/jaycocree
k/525grain.jpg[/IMG]



I think a 525 grain cast bullet over 1900 fps will wreek havoc on anything it comes in contact with.But that is my opinion..

Jayco

Jayco,

I'm not trying to be contrary but I don't see a 1900 fps load in the bunch?

One at 1820FPS ought to be plenty rank enough though!

Excellent bear/cat, medicine no doubt.

Well if you notice..The velocity was out of a 22 inch barrel.The Marlin 1895 Cowboy has a 26 inch barrel.Given ther bullet and load from 22-20 inch barrels the difference is about 34 fps per barrel inch.With the 26 inch Cowboy 45-70 the 34 fps would add up to an additional 136 fps for the added 4 inches of barrel length giving the 45-70 Cowboy a velocity of 1956 fps with a 525 grain cast boolit with a meplat of .375....I was being lenient...

Jayco

*** BUT WHAT'S THE TRADE OFF ? ***

( Howdy , Jayco ) .

Yes , it's true , a 525 Gr. Hardcast with the significant advantage of a BIG Meplat , -- at 1800 to 1900 FPS , is a powerful Cartridge ; -- and probably adequate to HUNT any ( thin-skinned ) game in the world .

One circumstance where it would not be IDEAL , however , would be that of a Bear Attack .

Large Bears , especially Browns and Grizzly , are very special predators ; in that they attack harder when wounded , and are famous for soaking up lots of lead , -- and still harming the shooter(s).

With the best of the heavy bulleted - Lg. Meplatted .45-70's , you're effectively trying to stretch the classic .45-70 design , -- into a D.G. stopping round .

Within certain limits , -- you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear .

The only legitimate question , to my mind , is , when you're hunting the large bears ; -- is any .45-70 with Hardcasts , as good as a more powerful Big-bore , shooting close to the same weight bullet in SOFTPOINT ??

A pure question of " Stopping Power " .

Any hunter who hunts Browns or Grizzly , has to consider his weapon in terms of the Charge ,
( unless he or she has massive faith in their back-up shooter ), -- ( Not this Child ) .

. 45-70's are usually lighter rifles , and the recoil effect with heavy - hardcasts , might be close to .458 in heavier bolt guns . --- Could be a toss up there ?

Just inputting , according to the studying up I've been doing on the subject .

---- Best Regards , --- MMCOUGAR .

One shot the Barnes 300 XFN out of a .450 Marlin Guide Gun, going through both shoulders and breaking the far one with an "Exit"..Tell me it won't work on big bears.


Jayco

from my understanding...an adrenalined bear needs a cns shot. a bear lapping up water minding its own with the right shot placement needs only the 30-06. the 45-70 can do both if you have a confident shooter

yayco...are you shy, have a fully epanded bullet for a head or running from the law?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
yayco...are you shy, have a fully epanded bullet for a head or running from the law?

Cute-That is not me..I don't hunt Bears although I have shot a few,my family doesn't like the taste and we eat what we shoot. I do have one hanging over the door that got into my horses though.

Jayco

o.k. that makes sense...just kidding you jayco ( ) used the romolfo...your top notch in my book

--- BOOMSTICK --- Any man from the Peoples Republik of The Hot Baking Oven , -- can't be all BAD . --- My birth certificate doesn't even have the dignity of reading Glendale , or Pasadena . -- Just reads straight Los Angeles , which is a misnomer unless Angels carry spray cans .

Just an observation on your point ( above ) .

Wonder what your odds are of getting a CNS shot on a ( frontal ) charging bear .

I've read some who seem experienced ; -- who say it's the only shot that will save your bacon . -- Others say , try for the shoulder and break the bear down . Still others say ; for better or worse , the center-of-mass shot is all you can expect to bring off under the stress .

My belief is that with .45-70 you don't have enough clout to survive with the Center-of Mass shot . -- In .458 Factory 510 SP , you probably do .

The Brainer Shot was described as trying to hit a grapefruit with a salami attached , incoming at 40 ft. per second , -- i.e. , as John Wayne used to say , " not likely , pilgrim " .

And from the stats. from Wildlife Biologists , -- on average , you ain't going to have time to break anything down !

So now where do you go ?


------ Regards , --- MMCOUGAR .

I have saw a few grizzlies and a couple brown bear in my day and have complete faith in a properly loaded 45/70 to get the job done on a center mass shot. The average interior griz is only 350-400lbs. I have only saw a few outside of kodiak that went much bigger. I load a 405gr kodiak bonded bullet at 1950fps out of my guide gun, I have shot this load thru 25"+ logs on a couple of occasions. The hard cast 420-540gr bullets are said to penetrate even better. A bear isn't really that thick thru the center unless you are talking a straight facing you shot and even then the bullet wouldn't stop until the hind quarters.

I agree that bigger is generally better but when you ad in the handling capabilites of a nice short lightweight guide gun to a heavier longer bolt gun and I will take the guide gun every time. My guide gun is short, light, and has a much quicker follow up shot. A lot of the bad repuation of the 45/70 comes from the anemic factory loads.

ditto the bear_78...

i think 3 nosler partitions in 300 gr and two heavy hard cast large meplat/north forks are the way to go. the nosler partitions penetrate great and have the initial "hand grenade" affect to mess some stuff up plus the added range of out to 200 yards. while the heavy hard cast/north forks will penetrate end to end in most cases with a cns shot do-able. you just need the confidence that the bear_78 has in his equiptment. jmho

The problem I saw in my 45-70 Boomstick, was the huge difference in point of impact between different weight bullets in the 45-70. Big difference between the 300 grain loads, and the heavier hard cast.

I could have shot my first caribou with a 45-70 but did.The caribou was 300 yards and I didnt know how much to lop a hunk of lead that far.I shot my first caribou with my 338-378 at 450 yards.It flipped like it was hit with a freight train.I use my 416 rem mag for the brush.I would feel very handicaped with a 45-70 on the tundra where 300 yard shots are short ones.I dont need a 45-70 and will never buy one for hunting.I did have a Browning model 78 that I bought for a collectors gun.I bought it for $350 new and sold it for $900 about 20 years later.I see the 338s and 416s way more useful than the 45-70.My 416 has a 22" barrel and is 8 pounds with a scope.It has a HS fiberglass stock.Its way easier to shoot that any 45-70 I have ever seen.I even sold my 458 that I was going to down load to 45-70.I narrowed my calibers to .338 and .416 .That cut out the .35 whelen I had and the 458.I saw too much over lap .The 35 whelen was not as good as the 338s.And the 458 was not as versital as the 416 Rem Mag.

DGR416-

I really think you missed the whole point on the 45/70. I don't think anyone here said it was the best gun for EVERY situation. We said it was perfect for one situation. I have several guns....a super light M98 in 30/06 with 2-7 compact scope that weighs 6.5lbs for mountain hunting, the guide gun, a 9.3x62 with scout scope for general big game out to 300 yards, a Model 70 winchester 375 for big stuff and long range, and a few smaller calibers for predators and small game. They are all for specific applications. I could probably get by with just the 375 for all my big game needs but don't need to. I used to have a nice 338 but got rid of it when I got the 375, it will do anything the 338 could do but better. I've even been known to have two rifles of the same caliber.

THe guide gun is pretty much for close to medium range hunting and backup work, as well as a great camp/fishing gun for protection. Its also probably the best bear baiting gun ever made. It tends to work very well for a lot of my normal hunting,not only that but I just plain enjoy using it, and since I shoot it more than any of my other big game rifles I am very confident with it. I probably wouldn't even take it up to the tundra, and when I'm climbing high it stays home. I don't think your 416 would be ideal for tundra bou shooting either, I'm sure it would work but not ideal. While its true that you can fix most things with WD40, a hammer, and duct tape, it comes in handy to have a few other tools from time to time. I have a buddy that uses the same 300 WIn mag for EVERYTHING, thats great but I like a little variety. If the 45/70 doesn't fit into your hunting style thats fine, it just works really well for mine.

I agree that the .45-70 is the most perfect up close and personal rifle you can have period--here in Alaska anyways-don't know anything about nothing else so I won't inject. I have killed a few interior grizzlies that weigh greater than 300-400 lbs with one and two shots of this rifle of mine. It cannot be hard to believe unless you have never done it. I have also have used .30-30's when that was the only rifle I was carrying - it is what you carry and how proficient you are-period. I think some of you guys just don't plane like each other-what is to question?

http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=pubs.hntbul8#cartridges

45-70 in the top ten alaska hunting carts

boom stick, I am going to have to sign as you do on the bottom as you do before to long. these .45-70 bullets are good just stick to a good hardcast and some h322 upwards to 1900fps and put your skills to use. don't need no big .458 or some souped up higher than the cloud type energy dream come true caliber-most will work if you place the shot correctly. hang in there boom stick.

quote:

Originally posted by Thebear_78:
I have saw a few grizzlies and a couple brown bear in my day and have complete faith in a properly loaded 45/70 to get the job done on a center mass shot. The average interior griz is only 350-400lbs. I have only saw a few outside of kodiak that went much bigger. I load a 405gr kodiak bonded bullet at 1950fps out of my guide gun, I have shot this load thru 25"+ logs on a couple of occasions. The hard cast 420-540gr bullets are said to penetrate even better. A bear isn't really that thick thru the center unless you are talking a straight facing you shot and even then the bullet wouldn't stop until the hind quarters.

I agree that bigger is generally better but when you ad in the handling capabilites of a nice short lightweight guide gun to a heavier longer bolt gun and I will take the guide gun every time. My guide gun is short, light, and has a much quicker follow up shot. A lot of the bad repuation of the 45/70 comes from the anemic factory loads.

Approximately 12 years ago, a fellow GI from Anchorage killed a 9'6" grizzly on a ridge near Fairbanks. He was looking for a larger one he had seen, and shot this one at close range when it charged him. He shot it three times with his .375 H&H and 300-grain bullets. I have seen huge interior grizzlies near Summit Lake, munching on salmon.

I said average, not all. I don't doubt that there are some HUGE interior bears, I've seen a few tracks that must have come from a really big bear. I'd still take my guide gun vs my win 70 375 any day of the week.

quote:

Originally posted by Thebear_78:
I said average, not all. I don't doubt that there are some HUGE interior bears, I've seen a few tracks that must have come from a really big bear. I'd still take my guide gun vs my win 70 375 any day of the week.

Mine is a .338WM

45-70 is a potent cartridge, no doubt about it. However, for Alaska hunting, I think there's better cartridges out there, plus they are to be had in bolt action rifles.

It is just an article but everyone should read it.Not everyone,including Bear Guides,believes Cast are the only way to go.Ed Stevenson doen't!
In fact-He prefers the 405 Kodiak with a heavy dose of H-322.....

An interesting read from another perspective.
http://www.z-hat.com/Stevenson.htm

Jayco

I posted this info on the Big Bore Forum ,perhaps it might be better received here

Posted 04 November 2005 17:39
Anyone checkout the new lever action ammo on the Hornady site ? A 45-70 pointed bullet with an elastomer flex tip that is safe for tublar magazines. 325 grain bullet, 20050 FPS and 3032 ft/lb.

For those guys that think they can only have one rifle that MUST fill every hunting need, by all means use what you feel is best.

What we have all said again and again is that the 45/70 works very well in its intended role, as a close range hunting/backup gun. No body is asking what the best all around gun is, we are simply just talking about the 45/70.

Part of the advantage of the 45/70 is that it comes in a lever action. THe handling abilities of the lever action are a big part of the 45/70s popularity.

I can't seem to understand why so many people seem to be threatened and negative about 45/70.

quote:

Originally posted by Moose-Hunter:
45-70 is a potent cartridge, no doubt about it. However, for Alaska hunting, I think there's better cartridges out there, plus they are to be had in bolt action rifles.

Moose Hunter - have you personally used a .45-70? With quality loads, meaning something up to date? We Alaskans have to stick together-remember This is a .45-70 Poll. You used that word "better"-please clarify that would you? And bolt actions as well-have you used an cycled a lever? It is slicker than you think.

Just in case you don't read the Leverguns forum,I thought I would post this 2,000# Bison takin with one shot with a 540 grain Hammerhead from Garrett Cartridges.

quote:

"We followed fresh sign for a couple hours and finally spotted four large bulls bedded in the heavy timber. These Bison spend much of the time bedded on the edge of the timber and emerge to feed throughout the day. We positioned ourselves down-wind and got within 50 yards. We had to wait nearly 30 minutes for the animals to turn broadside before I could take a shot. I aimed for the lower left shoulder and, when I felt the offside was clear of any other animals; I sent one of your 540 grainers through his shoulder. The terminal performance of the 540 Hammerhead is unbelievable. The animal was quartering towards from me at about 45 degrees. The bullet shattered his shoulder, took out both lungs and exited. Upon further review, seven large pieces of his shoulder bone took out the top of his heart, while the bullet took out the rear portion of his lungs and two ribs on the way out.
Seeing such a large animal get slammed to the ground is something to behold!"

Jim Audette

Says alot about the 45-70 and the right bullet in the right spot....
My appologies for posting on the Alaskan forum but there seems to be some or alot of controvery on what the old war horse 45-70 can do in modern times with modern bullets and "Shot Placement" ofcourse.

Jayco

The 45-70 will take anything in Ak. or North America if it's in the right rifle properly loaded. I've got several. Everthing from a TC pistol to Ballards, a Browning 86, Hepburns and a couple of Siamese Mausers. And sometime this week a double rifle!
Each and everyone has been "blooded" here.

quote:

I can't seem to understand why so many people seem to be threatened and negative about 45/70.

Thebear_78

That seems to be because there are a select few who pose the question about the .45-70 as an adequate rifle for hunting thick skinned dangerous game in Africa. When they don't receive the favorable comments they desire they flip out and start making personal accusations and such. And then all the usual suspects join in from both sides and the shit really starts to fly. then people get their little feel, feels hurt.

So this caliber on this sight tends to be a very flammable and sometimes explosive subject.

I maintain that the .45-70 is a fantastic round for it's intended purpose. I own a beatifull custom 1895 CB and love it. When I also say that I wouldn't use it for hunting elephants or buffalo that I prefer a good bolt gun or a double in a true heavy caliber, I've been called a snob an elitist and many other nice things. I really don't give a shit because I've been there done it and I know what works for me and I know what I'll continue to use.

That is why you'll find guys getting defensive when it comes to this round from both sides.

I also maintain that if you want to hunt DG with a sharp stick and a bic lighter it's none of my business. But most of these .45-70 use on thick skinned DG posters want validation of their beliefs. Most also have not hunted the very animals they are so adamantly arguing to use their rifle against.

That pisses off the guys who have. It's an endless ridiculous cycle.

Anyway in a nutshell that is why people get all twisted up and defensive over this round on this sight.


Greg

If its not my 375 it is my 45/70 in my hands... And as it turns out my hunten pantner (My Wife) Loves the the heck out of it and shoots it well..

I've never once mentioned african game and the 45/70. If I ever go to africa, I seriously doubt that the guide gun will be going with me. Thats why I have a 375 H&H, and would probably get a 416 or 458 just because I could. It seems to be a continuing problem with peopls attitudes. Any time somebody mentions the 45/70, people start talking thick skinned dangerous game. I just don't get it. I'm sure that more buffalo have been shot with a 303 brit or 7.62x39 than the 45/70, or elephants shot with 7x57 and 6.5x54 mausers. Yet whenever you mention one of those calibers people don't bring that up.

Simple facts are this in an alaskan forum and unless the lone elephant in alaska decides to run wild thru anchorage I seriously doubt that I will get a chance to ever shoot at one. As far as I know there are no cape or water buffalo either. About the biggest thing we are likely to run into is a bison, and the 45/70 will work for them, has been for over 100 years.

*** --- This is one great thread . --- I've learned from it , and have more respect for the ( new Hardcast ) .45-70's than ever before ; --- in terms of Bear Charge Stopping .

It's a little off - topic , because I ain't an Alaskan ( my Son lives up there now , -- is as close as I can come ) .

But I am very interested , so suffer me to make a summary of my ( personal ) take on all of this . ( Nothing I havn't already said above , -- but a summary ) .

Why ? -- because life , injury , and death could hang on this stuff .

The great .45-70 loaded to the tune of Garrett and Buffalo Bore heavies , -- is a whole new dimension in power , for the old .45-70 .

Will it kill a 1000 pound Brown ? --- Yes .
From any angle ? -- Yes .

Will it stop a Charge ? ( same 1000 Pounder ) --- Maybe , ( if you've got the time to do multiple shots , --- and you're a hell of a Shot under stress ) ; -- but you , most likely , WON'T have the required time . --- One exception , it will definitely stop a Charge if you hit the Central Nervous system , -- but that's even more unlikely .

So is it a good choice for a Lg. Bruin pure DEFENSE Rifle ?
Maybe so , if light weight , portability , and compact size are your ( FIRST ) priority .
( But who wants to gamble Life and Limb for 2 1/2 Lbs - ? ) .

Is it a good choice as a true Dangerous Game STOPPING WEAPON -- ( Of the Brown Bear or Grizzly kind ) ? --- No ! --- You have to go to .458 Win. Soft Point 500's for that .

Fair ??


-------------------- MMCOUGAR .