quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

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hickenshit . . . seriously . . . coming from you of all people. Seriously ironic.

Why is it "ironic"?

You should speak plainly if you're going to take shots at people...

. . . perhaps he will regale you with camp stories . . . I do not intend to.

Chickenshit - if you want to accuse someone of something have the balls to say it directly.

Mike

Folks,

They may be but in my experience I don't necessarily think wealthy people are huge tippers nor do I think less well heeled folks are poor tippers. In my dealing with folks they in most cases just want to know what I consider a fair tip if they receive good service.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Interesting discussion.

I wonder if the perception of being "cheap" should be adjusted to account for net worth. I suspect there are tons of posters on here with a much, much greater net worth than Joyce and me. That said, are they "cheap" if they tip the same amount or LESS than I do?

Cheers
Jim

If some billionaire leaves camp just before I get there and drops 10k to his PH and a few grand to the staff, I'm sure I'll be viewed as a cheap fucker when I leave..however, I tip to the best of my ability and leave satisfied I tipped according to the service I was provided.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I have had some reports from some of our members where apparently they are presented with a list of everyone in camp - with what is expected as a tip, and they were told this is normal.

The day someone does that to me on my last day in camp, I will throw it away, and not pay a penny, and never deal with that establishment again.

I have done just this on a buff hunt to the Selous. On last evening before departing the next morning the PH began the often used line..."after dinner I will help you with the tipping amounts for staff"...to which I replied "I've hunted here before". True to his word over gin and bitter lemon by the fire he presented me with his hand written list or everyone rom himself to the laundry boy, even suggesting payment only in $USD, when I comment the figures seemed awfully steep ( i.e. laundry boy $750-$800) I was abruptly told "good taste" dictates these be paid.
The next morning after the staff was assembled I walked to each man shook their hands and said "thank you, I have given the PH and envelope". I wonder how that went over after I left the landing strip an the PH opened the envelope with a letter as to why I left no tip.

So did you feel good screwing the staff over the PH's poor handling of the situation? Nothing like punishing the innocent.

When the laundry boy expects a $750-$800 tip - he takes the risk that someone tells him to go pound sand.

I fished the amazon where the expected/mentioned tip for camp staff was $200 and guide was $200. I over tipped.

But being told to tip $750-$800 for the laundry guy is a shakedown.

Mike

I got the point Mike. If I wasn't tutored as to what to tip on that trip, I would tip the guide 700-800 and would have left the camp probably the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Interesting discussion.

I wonder if the perception of being "cheap" should be adjusted to account for net worth. I suspect there are tons of posters on here with a much, much greater net worth than Joyce and me. That said, are they "cheap" if they tip the same amount or LESS than I do?

Cheers
Jim

If some billionaire leaves camp just before I get there and drops 10k to his PH and a few grand to the staff, I'm sure I'll be viewed as a cheap fucker when I leave..however, I tip to the best of my ability and leave satisfied I tipped according to the service I was provided.

+1

Yup! Won't keep some from thinking you're "cheap".

Outfitters should have the balls to quote a price that covers their expenses and expected profit. If they are worried that it will be too expensive for clients, then they need to cut on their expenses or lower their profit margin. Simple really.
I feel they manipulate the personal and sometimes emotional hunting experience that was just had by asking or expecting a tip.
It is like the truck dealerships advertising cheap trucks, and then loading the invoice with admin fees, document fees, pre delivery inspection fees etc.
Many outfitters proclaim they do not expect tips, but please tell us what happens if we don't tip. Will you be upset, angry, disappointed? If so, why? Is that not the job you chose? Is it not the job your camp staff chose? I don't get a tip after my week long tour is done at work. I work for an agreed upon rate. I put in long hours, and put in extra effort to save money and maximize productivity. If I don't then I will ne replaced. Why should you get a tip for doing the same. Your good service and effort is for the sake of your business's survival, and so you continue to have a job

I am just starting planning for my first African safari. So if I book a $20k hunt, I am expected to tip $4000 and decide how much of that each person on the staff gets?

That might make me decide to not even bother going. 10-15%--which is what I tip my local guides, seems more reasonable and I absolutely have no interest in being responsible to allocate the tip to each and every staff member.

Maybe Africa isn't for me........

quote:

Originally posted by Expat:
Outfitters should have the balls to quote a price that covers their expenses and expected profit. If they are worried that it will be too expensive for clients, then they need to cut on their expenses or lower their profit margin. Simple really.
I feel they manipulate the personal and sometimes emotional hunting experience that was just had by asking or expecting a tip.
It is like the truck dealerships advertising cheap trucks, and then loading the invoice with admin fees, document fees, pre delivery inspection fees etc.
Many outfitters proclaim they do not expect tips, but please tell us what happens if we don't tip. Will you be upset, angry, disappointed? If so, why? Is that not the job you chose? Is it not the job your camp staff chose? I don't get a tip after my week long tour is done at work. I work for an agreed upon rate. I put in long hours, and put in extra effort to save money and maximize productivity. If I don't then I will ne replaced. Why should you get a tip for doing the same. Your good service and effort is for the sake of your business's survival, and so you continue to have a job

May be we should apply this to all service providers, not just hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
I am just starting planning for my first African safari. So if I book a $20k hunt, I am expected to tip $4000 and decide how much of that each person on the staff gets?

That might make me decide to not even bother going. 10-15%--which is what I tip my local guides, seems more reasonable and I absolutely
have no interest in being responsible to allocate the tip to each and every staff member.

Maybe Africa isn't for me........

Take all this with a grain of salt. Just go, be a good client, take what you can afford for tips and dispense it as you wish along with a genuine thank you and go home with a clean conscious.

Give an inch, take a mile. The generosity of some in the past have seemed to spoil many PH's and hunt staff in general, to the point of expecting to be lavished with "tips" by all.

I have heard it enough from "Africans" that they think all Americans are rich and that we must all have money trees. Suggesting gratuity is classless and I would say even more so than a hunter stiffing the staff by not tipping at all.

Putting expectations of gratuity is a good way of ruining the end of what should have been a great experience for the client. A guilt trip shakedown should not be at the end of each safari. Shame on outfitters that bring that into a hunt.

Tipping scares the hell out of me on a lot of hunts that I might be able to someday afford, but can not now.

A friend of mine went to Tajikistan a few years ago and shot a marco polo and two ibex. He gave the skinner a $100 bill and the guy acted like he was offended, the guides told him that he owed them $8000 in tips because he shot a 61 inch ram. He didn't have $8000, he had about $800.

He had saved for this hunt, it was an extreme extravagance for him. He wasn't told by the booking agent about tips until he landed.

So who's the asshole? The guy that goes every year and has no real limit to his income and has escalated tipping to a rich mans game, or the guy who is "hunting above his paygrade".

Hunting is expensive for me, I have a young family and make ok money but am far from being financially secure enough to hit a Tanzania or Tajikstan dream trip.

Tips are a real thing, and I get that but what kind of bullshit is it that people have escalated tipping to bare such prominence that it can derail the entire safari?

quote:

Originally posted by eny:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
I am just starting planning for my first African safari. So if I book a $20k hunt, I am expected to tip $4000 and decide how much of that each person on the staff gets?

That might make me decide to not even bother going. 10-15%--which is what I tip my local guides, seems more reasonable and I absolutely
have no interest in being responsible to allocate the tip to each and every staff member.

Maybe Africa isn't for me........

Take all this with a grain of salt. Just go, be a good client, take what you can afford for tips and dispense it as you wish along with a genuine thank you and go home with a clean conscious.

Eny- that is the most sensible comment yet on what must be considered the most over discussed topics that in my view has nothing to be discussed about at all!!! It is TOTALLY PERSONAL AND THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER AS IT IS AT THE CLIENTS DISCRETION MEANING THIS-

A big tip or, no tip at all, will be greeted with a "Thankyou" and a handshake from the PH as well as the staff and will in no way effect the effort from all parties should you return. If this is not the case you are hunting with the wrong crew folks.

We have our own system in our camp. We have a reasonable tip that is per animal. It's about 130$ per taken big game animal for the hunting team (normally 5guys). I tell clients that's my suggestion and the hunting teams knows that's their bonus for the animal. If a client doesn't want to pay it (happened only once with a wounded animal), I will pay it to the guys. So the tip is a bonus for success and the guys know that.

Uncontrolled tips to the staff are quite risky because the generosity of one hunter might "spoil" the staff for the next client. You might have to fire a good tracker because he gets greedy on tips which is just avoidable.

Why some guys get so caught up with tips I don't know. Tip what you feel is appropriate and go your way. It's a gift and that's it, no obligation at all. If someone asks for a tip just ignore it.

Buzz and Dennis,

I'd hunt with either one of you, no questions asked.

Thank you both for posting that.

This is a proper topic what I do find distasteful in it though is disclosing what a person tips....or not. It has always been my opinion an one I shall continue to hold that a tip is a personal matter between the tipster and tipped.
If I elect to tip at all it is at my digression not some industry standard. If the outfitting company as Mark Young states does not have a staff next year that is their fault for expecting the clients to supplement staff wages, a tip is exactly that ,extra over and above their paid wage.
I as well as my aquantinences do normally tip what is at issue is be told an expected via "good taste" how much to tip.

quote:

Originally posted by eny:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
I am just starting planning for my first African safari. So if I book a $20k hunt, I am expected to tip $4000 and decide how much of that each person on the staff gets?

That might make me decide to not even bother going. 10-15%--which is what I tip my local guides, seems more reasonable and I absolutely
have no interest in being responsible to allocate the tip to each and every staff member.

Maybe Africa isn't for me........

Take all this with a grain of salt. Just go, be a good client, take what you can afford for tips and dispense it as you wish along with a genuine thank you and go home with a clean conscious.

Is that how it is there in la la land?

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
This is a proper topic what I do find distasteful in it though is disclosing what a person tips....or not. It has always been my opinion an one I shall continue to hold that a tip is a personal matter between the tipster and tipped.
If I elect to tip at all it is at my digression not some industry standard. If the outfitting company as Mark Young states does not have a staff next year that is their fault for expecting the clients to supplement staff wages, a tip is exactly that ,extra over and above their paid wage.
I as well as my aquantinences do normally tip what is at issue is be told an expected via "good taste" how much to tip.

...but you just disclosed that you tipped nothing...

I disclosed on that particular 14 day safari I took exception to being told what I was to tip, an did so in response to a quoted comment by Saeed.
In the years my practice was open I received nearly daily comments such as, " what a beautiful job you did on my crown or inlay or etc., etc." . But in those 30 years never did I tell my patient that will be 20% gratuity for my staff and 25% for me.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
I disclosed on that particular 14 day safari I took exception to being told what I was to tip, an did so in response to a quoted comment by Saeed.
In the years my practice was open I received nearly daily comments such as, " what a beautiful job you did on my crown or inlay or etc., etc." . But in those 30 years never did I tell my patient that will be 20% gratuity for my staff and 25% for me.

I am sorry I misunderstood your post when you said "disclosed".I re read it and I see what you mean.I agree with you on that.

It has gotten out of hand in all of Africa. Moving forward, I think that the industry standard for all Outfitters should be no tipping but to simply raise the rates to where the compensation from the tips is already figured into the cost of the package. Similar to a restaurant where you have five of more people sitting at a table. This way people know what to expect ahead of time. I had a trip last week when one of my guides was complaining about not getting a tip and I gave him the extra money. Believe it or not it is a pain for the Outfitter as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
We have our own system in our camp. We have a reasonable tip that is per animal. It's about 130$ per taken animal for the hunting team (normally 5guys). I tell clients that's my suggestion and the hunting teams knows that's their bonus for the animal. If a client doesn't want to pay it (happened only once with a wounded animal), I will pay it to the guys. So the tip is a bonus for success and the guys know that.

Uncontrolled tips to the staff are quite risky because the generosity of one hunter might "spoil" the staff for the next client. You might have to fire a good tracker because he gets greedy on tips which is just avoidable.

Why some guys get so caught up with tips I don't know. Tip what you feel is appropriate and go your way. It's a gift and that's it, no obligation at all. If someone asks for a tip just ignore it.

+1 Dennis!

I'm not saying I don't tip but it turns into a pain in the ass sometimes especially when your hunting in two different camps with two PH's and a camp staff of 17 in one camp and 9 in the other. You start needing a wheelbarrel to carry all the small bills or maybe I should just start tipping $100 bills. I think I've been on 5 hunts with more than one PH. Sometimes I feel it takes away from the fun of the hunt, but not enough to not go back

I see this creeping of indirect costs across a lot of discretionary consumer vacation activity.

I am booking a room in Biloxi tonight. Harragphs at $37 a night room has a non waiveable restort fee of $16 that covers parking, pool and gym.

All other casinos have a non waivable resort fee from $10-$17.

The room at Harrah is never $37 - it's $53.

The latest economist has a article that says 17 percent of hotel revenue now comes from non waivable resort fees.

I will bet most staff at African safaris don't get paid as much as the recommended tip for them is.

I looked at all the fishing stuff I have from Costa Rica, panama, Brazil - all countries with higher per capital GDP and labor income levels than Africa. All have lower tips recommendations for camps that do pretty much the same stuff.

Mike

Back when I was a client and paying for hunts (Late 80's through the 90's), tipping wasn't such a big issue. I generally tipped my PH mostly by leaving all my equipment and ammo behind, and cash for the staff. There was no expectation and no pressure. Anything was appreciated.

What has happened now is tipping has become a big deal and some operators are using Americans as their bankroll to fund their staff costs. I single out Americans because most other foreign hunters don't tip or tip very little in comparison.

Once again, the US hunter is keeping African hunting alive and being abused in the process as well - my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be some of you need to read the long thread on tips. You might get an idea that most clients are getting a bit fed up with you asking for tips up front.

I see some of you continue to include the fact that tips are not included, and the client has to take that into consideration.

I am sure most Posters/Outfitters have ggod intentions in regards to the tipping suggestion. Having said this, I am convinced that 90% of the Outfitters do have an expectation of a good tip. I hate figuring out how much to tip.

IMO, I would rather the Outfitter include every thing in the cost of the hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

IMO, I would rather the Outfitter include every thing in the cost of the hunt.

Curious, why? Then instead of having the discretion to tip or not tip based on the level of service provided, you truly are being forced to tip. I would rather have the option to tip . . . and have the outfitter and staff know that I have the option to tip . . . than have that option taken away from me and priced into the service regardless of the service level.

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be some of you need to read the long thread on tips. You might get an idea that most clients are getting a bit fed up with you asking for tips up front.

I see some of you continue to include the fact that tips are not included, and the client has to take that into consideration.

I am sure most Posters/Outfitters have good intentions in regards to the tipping suggestion. Having said this, I am convinced that 90% of the Outfitters do have an expectation of a good tip. I hate figuring out how much to tip.

IMO, I would rather the Outfitter include every thing in the cost of the hunt.

And to tip properly, it would be important for you to know what the average tracker and camp worker is being paid. When we tip here in the US, you can pretty well bet the restaurant worker is being paid close to minimum wage so pretty easy to figure out that 15% means a lot to them. Then again, restaurant jobs are on the lower part of the totem pole in this country.

However, a tracker, cook, master hunter is a well paying job in Africa. Trackers/Skinners/Camp Staff are making about R$1,750 to R$2,000 a month or $125 to $150 a month. A master hunter generally makes R$3,500 to R$4,500 a month or $250 to $325 a month. So when an outfitter is suggesting that you pay a full month's salary as a tip for a week's worth of hunting, you really should ask yourself if that makes any sense to you.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:
I disclosed on that particular 14 day safari I took exception to being told what I was to tip, an did so in response to a quoted comment by Saeed.
In the years my practice was open I received nearly daily comments such as, " what a beautiful job you did on my crown or inlay or etc., etc." . But in those 30 years never did I tell my patient that will be 20% gratuity for my staff and 25% for me.

Cause you are a professional - Your labor skills and work product are expected to meet a professional standard that does not vary. Your effort level and professional services are largely independent of your like or dislike of the client. You don't shirk from your professional standard and you need to be paid an incentive beyond your professional fees to perform to your professional standard.

Just like a

Solider
Police
Every government official
Doctor
Dentist
Lawyer
Gunsmith
Taxidermist
Hedge Fund Manager
Accountant
Pilot
Air Hostess
Plumber
Chef

The list goes on and on

When you ph stands ready for his tip - the professional part is the part of the marketing pitch sold to you.

He is much more akin to a non professional service provider whose incentive structure is to motivated effort by additional compensation beyond a labor/professional requirement.

I bet end of day after this tipping discussion you glad your are a high skilled professional whose skills do nor require a tipping compensation structure - I for one sure am.

Mike

professional hunter

I do know a PH that got a new Toyota Landcruiser for putting his client on a big bull Elephant. I have gotten several four digit tips but nothing like that! That was back when Botswana was still open for hunting.

I know several outfitters who have said don't come unless you can afford a tip. To me this is stupid, but getting more common.

Out of 6 hunting safaris and one guided tour I've been on to Africa... Two of the Outfitters, who also acted as PH, really pressured me on how to tip. I have asked for guidance on occasion so I would know how much to bring along. But in those instances it felt like the advice was given with some reservation and was clear that tipping was completely up to me. Tougher decisions, but left me feeling good about it and I honestly probably tipped more to those places. The times I felt pressured, I remember and don't like the feeling. Probably not as excited to go back to those places.

The two instances did leave a bad taste in my mouth. Especially when I felt some people deserved more than others. There are usually a couple people who really make the trip a success, sometimes it can be the lowest guy on the totem pole just getting your muddy wet clothes back to you clean and warm.

As for PH's, there is a huge difference between the guy who encourages and pushes you to succeed, even farther than you thought you could go... And the young long legged pup who jogs along arrogantly and leaves you in the dust wondering where to go and what to do next.... Sometime they can be so fast, they even outrun much of their tip

I think the only reason outfitters and PH's have a reccomended tip list is because, lets face it, EVERY client asks towards the end of the hunt. And I believe very few clients want to be seen as cheap, or shaken down. I have always tipped North America, NZ and Africa, but I can't tip like a guy who makes millions a year. I can afford one guided trip a year, and telling me the laundry boy deserves $750-800 usd for 14 days in a country where the average person makes less than $2,000 usd annually would be the fastest way to receive no tip or a very minimum tip. Hell, $750-800 usd I think is a damn good guide tip for a week PG hunt or elk hunt, not two weeks of laundry.

Beretta682 said his floor is $100/d. Mine is $75/d.

I've had every experience with tipping that I think that you could have.

I usually ask during the booking process what a "normal" tip is and how it is paid and that goes into my budget.

I've had the PH bring up tipping from our first conversation in the airport and every day during the hunt, usually in the conversation about the camp staff feeling shorted because the last client was from XXX country and left $50 for the staff of 12 people on a week's hunt. etc.

I've had a tracker tell me that I should pay his tip directly to him because the PH didn't distribute tips fairly. On the same hunt the PH asked me to pay all the camp tips directly to him in private and he would divide it among the staff.

I've had PH/outfitters reluctant to recommend tips and when he did I over tipped by accident when he mentioned a figure for the entirety of the staff and I thought that it was per person.

I've had a PH/outfitter tell me that anything that I wanted to give was appropriate since he paid his staff well and they all recognized that it was a gift and not an expectation.

Trying to settle on if and how much to tip is impossible since their are as many opinions about this as there are people in the world.

I am middle of the road here. I definitely tip more on a hunt that is successful. My money, my choice.

I tipped my guide in AK $1200 on my moose hunt, which I didn't feel was extravagant, but he was pretty happy. I shot the biggest moose in camp last Sep (certainly nothing huge) and while I glassed it, it was his plan that allowed us to kill it. Does anyone guide for the money? There are far easier ways to make a living. He busted his butt, we got a moose, and he got a tip. If we failed to shoot a moose, I would have tipped him $600 for the effort, assuming he didn't give up.

Good way of putting it. Most of us guide because we are addicts and can not get enough of the outdoors. Definitely not the money. It is a good life but it is like I tell all of my guides and several of you have heard me say this.
"Good clients make this the best job in the world and bad clients make this the worst mistake on Earth!"

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:

IMO, I would rather the Outfitter include every thing in the cost of the hunt.

Curious, why? Then instead of having the discretion to tip or not tip based on the level of service provided, you truly are being forced to tip. I would rather have the option to tip . . . and have the outfitter and staff know that I have the option to tip . . . than have that option taken away from me and priced into the service regardless of the service level.

Why- Because everyone should then be happy. There will not be any false expectations. Regardless of what a Guide or PH says, many of them do expect a tip. In addition, they will most likely expect a minimum amount. How is a first time hunter going to know what and how much to tip? Will the Outfitter be offended if he gives them $200? It is quite possible that the said person would not know any better.

Case in point- My cousin, who does not hunt a lot went hunting with me a few years back. Through some trade work, I was offered a trophy elk hunt (probably valued at $5k). He had never been on a hunt like this, nor had he ever been on a guided hunt. We had a great hunt and he killed a good bull on the first day. The guide did a great job as well. My cousin never asked about tipping and I am sure that he had no idea that he should have tipped. I gladly tipped the guide and left it at that. If my cousin would have been solo, would the guide have been offended at not receiving a tip?

An industry has now been created that relies on tips. A previous post (I believe) said that a PH's salary is 40-60% dependent on tips. This is crazy. Not crazy because of the amount, crazy in the fact that they will have a difficult time knowing what their day to day wages are.

I am not saying I am right, just relating what I personally would prefer. It does not mean that I do not tip. I do, and plan on doing so in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
"Good clients make this the best job in the world and bad clients make this the worst mistake on Earth!"

Soooo true.

This makes me remember a guy, way back in time when I was still an apprentice PH in Mozambique that needed three to four round to kill an animal. When we stalked up to a big old Buffalo bull, I stopped and said, Mike please, one shot kill on this one. He looked at me and said, I take them out one leg at a time, "It gives me value for my money"

Mike left and I will remember that hunt for the rest of my life.

On my very first trip Africa I hunted Sebra with Jan Du Plessis in northwest Namibia for plains game owner/operator of Sebra he had just a few camp staff and his wife. That trip spoiled me and I did not even know it at the time. Jan a first class hunter and gentleman seemed embarrassed when I gave him his tip...as if it was too much but when I handed him a tip to be split among his staff he handed half back to me. As I recall he said he did not wish to spoil them. I have forgotten those amounts but I believe I recall they were equal to 1 days rate fee for the 10 day hunt.
My first trip an I met a truly humble owner/PH whom I still believe to be the best hunter I've shared time with anywhere in Africa.