May be some of you need to read the long thread on tips. You might get an idea that most clients are getting a bit fed up with you asking for tips up front.

I see some of you continue to include the fact that tips are not included, and the client has to take that into consideration.

Where is that ar-book like tool?

Saeed,

So you don't think wording like "Gratuity at hunter's discretion" is appropriate? To me this means that the hunters can leave a tip or not but that it is traditionally part of safari. Rather than this being interpreted as asking for tips upfront it might be interpreted as letting people from non tipping cultures understand that hunters on safari usually tip. It might save some embarrassment for those folks.

Mark

. . . perhaps something like, "As you wrap up your safari for which you paid thousands and in some cases tens of thousands of dollars to go on, please consider a modest monetary "thank you" for the people that cooked your meals, washed your clothes, served you drinks, cleaned your room, tracked your game, and acted as your host."

Soliciting or suggesting a tip imo is a big reason not to tip. Expectations of a tip, make it no longer a tip, by definition.

quote:

Originally posted by deadibob:
Soliciting or suggesting a tip imo is a big reason not to tip. Expectations of a tip, make it no longer a tip, by definition.

Agreed

Does "soliciting" a tip include the space on every single restaurant credit slip that you will ever sign for "gratuity"? Sometimes I think all the protesting about and searching for reasons to complain about tips really translates to just being cheap.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Does "soliciting" a tip include the space on every single restaurant credit slip that you will ever sign for "gratuity"? Sometimes I think all the protesting about and searching for reasons to complain about tips really translates to just being cheap.

Nothing wrong in tipping and nothing wrong in being cheap. Money is hard earned (and heavily taxed in the US) and a lot of guys hunting africa get all bought into the marketing story of them being the next great white hunter instead of just a client for a high priced discretionary vacation.

Not tipping at least for an American is being a jerk. Just budget it in your total cost of a safari and if it is not worth it find something else to spend the money on. But kind of matching some extreme expectation of tipping is joke. I have heard a few PHs talking about being tipped a double rifle. To me that is the other extreme of shootaway tipping his PH $50 and a game scout $600. Its an irrelevant standard no one normal client should be held too.

And on being cheap and tipping I observed some interesting stuff in coat check tipping in high end NYC restaurants. Whenever we went for business dinners the sales guys always were the biggest tippers. End of the dinner they would take out a $20 or $50 bill and tip the coat check girl. Every billionaire I ever had dinner with tipped like $3-$5 - maybe I hung out with a bunch of cheap value investors. But few finance billionaires for whom $50 or $100 was irrelevant ever frivolously tipped. They tipped inline for the service rendered.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Saeed,

So you don't think wording like "Gratuity at hunter's discretion" is appropriate? To me this means that the hunters can leave a tip or not but that it is traditionally part of safari. Rather than this being interpreted as asking for tips upfront it might be interpreted as letting people from non tipping cultures understand that hunters on safari usually tip. It might save some embarrassment for those folks.

Mark

01. All air travel before and after the contracted period of the Safari
02. Accommodation and travel charges incurred before and after the contracted period of the Safari
03. Transfer by road from international airports to camp
04. Trophy fees for animals taken or wounded
05. All air charters
06. Gratuities to Professional hunters and other staff members
07. Preparation, packing, documentation and export of trophies


Mark,

Above is a perfect example of what I mean.

It is mentioned so the client is made aware that it is expected, and he better pay it.

I have no problem with tips, in fact, I think I might tend to over tip, where service provided is as expected or better.

I refuse to tip - or pay what hotels and restaurants call "service charge".

There has been occasions where I have crossed that off my bill, and refused to pay it, making sure the manager knew why.

I have had some reports from some of our members where apparently they are presented with a list of everyone in camp - with what is expected as a tip, and they were told this is normal.

The day someone does that to me on my last day in camp, I will throw it away, and not pay a penny, and never deal with that establishment again.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Does "soliciting" a tip include the space on every single restaurant credit slip that you will ever sign for "gratuity"? Sometimes I think all the protesting about and searching for reasons to complain about tips really translates to just being cheap.

Nothing wrong in tipping and nothing wrong in being cheap. Money is hard earned (and heavily taxed in the US) and a lot of guys hunting africa get all bought into the marketing story of them being the next great white hunter instead of just a client for a high priced discretionary vacation.

Not tipping at least for an American is being a jerk. Just budget it in your total cost of a safari and if it is not worth it find something else to spend the money on. But kind of matching some extreme expectation of tipping is joke. I have heard a few PHs talking about being tipped a double rifle. To me that is the other extreme of shootaway tipping his PH $50 and a game scout $600. Its an irrelevant standard no one normal client should be held too.

And on being cheap and tipping I observed some interesting stuff in coat check tipping in high end NYC restaurants. Whenever we went for business dinners the sales guys always were the biggest tippers. End of the dinner they would take out a $20 or $50 bill and tip the coat check girl. Every billionaire I ever had dinner with tipped like $3-$5 - maybe I hung out with a bunch of cheap value investors. But few finance billionaires for whom $50 or $100 was irrelevant ever frivolously tipped. They tipped inline for the service rendered.

Mike

. . . no shortage of ways someone can be a jerk in a hunting context.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Does "soliciting" a tip include the space on every single restaurant credit slip that you will ever sign for "gratuity"? Sometimes I think all the protesting about and searching for reasons to complain about tips really translates to just being cheap.

Nothing wrong in tipping and nothing wrong in being cheap. Money is hard earned (and heavily taxed in the US) and a lot of guys hunting africa get all bought into the marketing story of them being the next great white hunter instead of just a client for a high priced discretionary vacation.

Not tipping at least for an American is being a jerk. Just budget it in your total cost of a safari and if it is not worth it find something else to spend the money on. But kind of matching some extreme expectation of tipping is joke. I have heard a few PHs talking about being tipped a double rifle. To me that is the other extreme of shootaway tipping his PH $50 and a game scout $600. Its an irrelevant standard no one normal client should be held too.

And on being cheap and tipping I observed some interesting stuff in coat check tipping in high end NYC restaurants. Whenever we went for business dinners the sales guys always were the biggest tippers. End of the dinner they would take out a $20 or $50 bill and tip the coat check girl. Every billionaire I ever had dinner with tipped like $3-$5 - maybe I hung out with a bunch of cheap value investors. But few finance billionaires for whom $50 or $100 was irrelevant ever frivolously tipped. They tipped inline for the service rendered.

Mike

. . . no shortage of ways someone can be a jerk in a hunting context.

Discretionary high dollar price vacations attract jerks. Its the cost of doing business for outfitters.

Same way as high dollar price consumption services attract frauds on the outfitter side.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Does "soliciting" a tip include the space on every single restaurant credit slip that you will ever sign for "gratuity"? Sometimes I think all the protesting about and searching for reasons to complain about tips really translates to just being cheap.

Nothing wrong in tipping and nothing wrong in being cheap. Money is hard earned (and heavily taxed in the US) and a lot of guys hunting africa get all bought into the marketing story of them being the next great white hunter instead of just a client for a high priced discretionary vacation.

Not tipping at least for an American is being a jerk. Just budget it in your total cost of a safari and if it is not worth it find something else to spend the money on. But kind of matching some extreme expectation of tipping is joke. I have heard a few PHs talking about being tipped a double rifle. To me that is the other extreme of shootaway tipping his PH $50 and a game scout $600. Its an irrelevant standard no one normal client should be held too.

And on being cheap and tipping I observed some interesting stuff in coat check tipping in high end NYC restaurants. Whenever we went for business dinners the sales guys always were the biggest tippers. End of the dinner they would take out a $20 or $50 bill and tip the coat check girl. Every billionaire I ever had dinner with tipped like $3-$5 - maybe I hung out with a bunch of cheap value investors. But few finance billionaires for whom $50 or $100 was irrelevant ever frivolously tipped. They tipped inline for the service rendered.

Mike

. . . no shortage of ways someone can be a jerk in a hunting context.

Discretionary high dollar price vacations attract jerks. Its the cost of doing business for outfitters.

Same way as high dollar price consumption services attract frauds on the outfitter side.

Mike

. . . more jerks on the client side than the outfitter side in my view . . . and unfortunately not all the offensive behavior of clients ends up directed at outfitters.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Does "soliciting" a tip include the space on every single restaurant credit slip that you will ever sign for "gratuity"? Sometimes I think all the protesting about and searching for reasons to complain about tips really translates to just being cheap.

Nothing wrong in tipping and nothing wrong in being cheap. Money is hard earned (and heavily taxed in the US) and a lot of guys hunting africa get all bought into the marketing story of them being the next great white hunter instead of just a client for a high priced discretionary vacation.

Not tipping at least for an American is being a jerk. Just budget it in your total cost of a safari and if it is not worth it find something else to spend the money on. But kind of matching some extreme expectation of tipping is joke. I have heard a few PHs talking about being tipped a double rifle. To me that is the other extreme of shootaway tipping his PH $50 and a game scout $600. Its an irrelevant standard no one normal client should be held too.

And on being cheap and tipping I observed some interesting stuff in coat check tipping in high end NYC restaurants. Whenever we went for business dinners the sales guys always were the biggest tippers. End of the dinner they would take out a $20 or $50 bill and tip the coat check girl. Every billionaire I ever had dinner with tipped like $3-$5 - maybe I hung out with a bunch of cheap value investors. But few finance billionaires for whom $50 or $100 was irrelevant ever frivolously tipped. They tipped inline for the service rendered.

Mike

. . . no shortage of ways someone can be a jerk in a hunting context.

Discretionary high dollar price vacations attract jerks. Its the cost of doing business for outfitters.

Same way as high dollar price consumption services attract frauds on the outfitter side.

Mike

. . . more jerks on the client side than the outfitter side in my view . . . and unfortunately not all the offensive behavior of clients ends up directed at outfitters.

True but then there are a lot more clients than outfitters.

But there is only one shootaway - he is the national treasure of Canada and AR

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I have had some reports from some of our members where apparently they are presented with a list of everyone in camp - with what is expected as a tip, and they were told this is normal.

The day someone does that to me on my last day in camp, I will throw it away, and not pay a penny, and never deal with that establishment again.

I have done just this on a buff hunt to the Selous. On last evening before departing the next morning the PH began the often used line..."after dinner I will help you with the tipping amounts for staff"...to which I replied "I've hunted here before". True to his word over gin and bitter lemon by the fire he presented me with his hand written list or everyone rom himself to the laundry boy, even suggesting payment only in $USD, when I comment the figures seemed awfully steep ( i.e. laundry boy $750-$800) I was abruptly told "good taste" dictates these be paid.
The next morning after the staff was assembled I walked to each man shook their hands and said "thank you, I have given the PH and envelope". I wonder how that went over after I left the landing strip an the PH opened the envelope with a letter as to why I left no tip.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I have had some reports from some of our members where apparently they are presented with a list of everyone in camp - with what is expected as a tip, and they were told this is normal.

The day someone does that to me on my last day in camp, I will throw it away, and not pay a penny, and never deal with that establishment again.

I have done just this on a buff hunt to the Selous. On last evening before departing the next morning the PH began the often used line..."after dinner I will help you with the tipping amounts for staff"...to which I replied "I've hunted here before". True to his word over gin and bitter lemon by the fire he presented me with his hand written list or everyone rom himself to the laundry boy, even suggesting payment only in $USD, when I comment the figures seemed awfully steep ( i.e. laundry boy $750-$800) I was abruptly told "good taste" dictates these be paid.
The next morning after the staff was assembled I walked to each man shook their hands and said "thank you, I have given the PH and envelope". I wonder how that went over after I left the landing strip an the PH opened the envelope with a letter as to why I left no tip.

So did you feel good screwing the staff over the PH's poor handling of the situation? Nothing like punishing the innocent.

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I have had some reports from some of our members where apparently they are presented with a list of everyone in camp - with what is expected as a tip, and they were told this is normal.

The day someone does that to me on my last day in camp, I will throw it away, and not pay a penny, and never deal with that establishment again.

I have done just this on a buff hunt to the Selous. On last evening before departing the next morning the PH began the often used line..."after dinner I will help you with the tipping amounts for staff"...to which I replied "I've hunted here before". True to his word over gin and bitter lemon by the fire he presented me with his hand written list or everyone rom himself to the laundry boy, even suggesting payment only in $USD, when I comment the figures seemed awfully steep ( i.e. laundry boy $750-$800) I was abruptly told "good taste" dictates these be paid.
The next morning after the staff was assembled I walked to each man shook their hands and said "thank you, I have given the PH and envelope". I wonder how that went over after I left the landing strip an the PH opened the envelope with a letter as to why I left no tip.

2th doc, I feel for you man.

Saeed,

I completely understand your answer but you did not answer my question. If I write my future ads here on AR to include "Gratuity at hunter's discretion" is that acceptable?

I too think tipping can be handled inappropriately and I've been unhappy with how it was handled on a couple of occasions myself. On the other hand I don't think it is inappropriate to let a newbie at the safari game know that tipping is customary. Not everyone is as tuned in as the AR crew is. I'm amazed on a regular basis how little people really know about safari when first considering booking a hunt.

Mark

Ask yourself who benefits from having tips as opposed to not having tips and including a tipping charge in the price of the hunt instead? It is certainly not for the benefit of the client.There needs to be a gentleman's outfitter to come along and state that his staff will not accept tips.

So........just to further muddy the water........why is it EXPECTED that Americans, Canadians, etc should tip, but Europeans paying the same rate to go on the same hunt get a pass and generally do NOT tip?????

I experience this first hand and have for years as an outfitter/guide. American hunters usually tip, some more, some less, but it is exceedingly rare for them not to tip. When we do see an American client who does not tip they are usually brand new to going on outfitted hunts and just don't know it is the norm.

On the flip side it is rare for a European to leave a tip.......... in fact I can't remember the last time a European client did tip.

So why do we accept the double standard on this? We price our hunts and that is all we base our projected income on. We do not factor in tips and never have because they are completely a discretionary thing on the part of the hunter. Nor do we depend on tips to pay for part of an employees salary if you will.

I still say the tipping thing has gone beyond ridiculous. Way back on my first hunt in Africa, back in the 80's, you tipped your PH and left a bit of coin for him to distribute to the trackers, skinners, etc as he saw fit. You did not tip every single person in the camp and you sure as hell did not tip the government game scout that the government required accompany every safari.

Dip and pack was included in all the first hunts I went on.......... now it is an add on expense on pretty much all African hunts.

The whole thing with add ons and tip expectations has blossomed into a substantial amount over and above the cost of the hunt and I think it is time that hunters throttle back on this. It exists and persists because we just knuckle under and pay it.

If they can manage to survive and muddle through a hunt just on the regular daily rates and trophy fees with Europeans that do not tip....... why has it that everyone else is made to feel like an asshole if they do not tip and tip on a scale that the recipients deem as acceptable.

It's BS.

Like ,I said before, tipping is pretty customary here in US right?
As a guide, I got 20-50 maybe 100 bucks on week hunt
Good beer money
But in Africa, when people expect tip that covers monthly wage plus, that's a bit too much
Hunters are not stupid and I have heard same complain from many many guys who hunted in Africa

I do believe, it burns many guys after couple three trips
Anyways, tough to please everyone, but tips were never supposed to be excessive and Africa went into an extreme

quote:

Sometimes I think all the protesting about and searching for reasons to complain about tips really translates to just being cheap.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Ask yourself who benefits from having tips as opposed to not having tips and including a tipping charge in the price of the hunt instead? It is certainly not for the benefit of the client.There needs to be a gentleman's outfitter to come along and state that his staff will not accept tips.

. . . case in point.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I have had some reports from some of our members where apparently they are presented with a list of everyone in camp - with what is expected as a tip, and they were told this is normal.

The day someone does that to me on my last day in camp, I will throw it away, and not pay a penny, and never deal with that establishment again.

I have done just this on a buff hunt to the Selous. On last evening before departing the next morning the PH began the often used line..."after dinner I will help you with the tipping amounts for staff"...to which I replied "I've hunted here before". True to his word over gin and bitter lemon by the fire he presented me with his hand written list or everyone rom himself to the laundry boy, even suggesting payment only in $USD, when I comment the figures seemed awfully steep ( i.e. laundry boy $750-$800) I was abruptly told "good taste" dictates these be paid.
The next morning after the staff was assembled I walked to each man shook their hands and said "thank you, I have given the PH and envelope". I wonder how that went over after I left the landing strip an the PH opened the envelope with a letter as to why I left no tip.

So did you feel good screwing the staff over the PH's poor handling of the situation? Nothing like punishing the innocent.

When the laundry boy expects a $750-$800 tip - he takes the risk that someone tells him to go pound sand.

I fished the amazon where the expected/mentioned tip for camp staff was $200 and guide was $200. I over tipped.

But being told to tip $750-$800 for the laundry guy is a shakedown.

Mike

You want to call people cheap
I work hard everyday for my pay
In 35 years I have recieved 2tips
Call me cheap. If the PH or Guide deserves
a tip I give within my means. Not
what is suggested.
2010 I had a PH complain to the
outfitter , by the time we flew from the cape
to joburg the outfitter knew.
What a cry baby, I am blue collar and save for years to do a hunt.

The problem with tipping is it can be abused by the staff or outfitter and serve as a cover for monkey business.No one wants to feel they will be held hostage in any way in Africa if they do not pay the desired amount.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I have had some reports from some of our members where apparently they are presented with a list of everyone in camp - with what is expected as a tip, and they were told this is normal.

The day someone does that to me on my last day in camp, I will throw it away, and not pay a penny, and never deal with that establishment again.

I have done just this on a buff hunt to the Selous. On last evening before departing the next morning the PH began the often used line..."after dinner I will help you with the tipping amounts for staff"...to which I replied "I've hunted here before". True to his word over gin and bitter lemon by the fire he presented me with his hand written list or everyone rom himself to the laundry boy, even suggesting payment only in $USD, when I comment the figures seemed awfully steep ( i.e. laundry boy $750-$800) I was abruptly told "good taste" dictates these be paid.
The next morning after the staff was assembled I walked to each man shook their hands and said "thank you, I have given the PH and envelope". I wonder how that went over after I left the landing strip an the PH opened the envelope with a letter as to why I left no tip.

So did you feel good screwing the staff over the PH's poor handling of the situation? Nothing like punishing the innocent.

When the laundry boy expects a $750-$800 tip - he takes the risk that someone tells him to go pound sand.

I fished the amazon where the expected/mentioned tip for camp staff was $200 and guide was $200. I over tipped.

But being told to tip $750-$800 for the laundry guy is a shakedown.

Mike

The laundry boy shakedown the client? Did the laundry boy say he expected a tip of that size? Again, I think all the hubbub about tipping is largely a case of miser's seeking to rationalize their own behavior.

It is another reason why clients want to avoid Joberg airport also but I enjoy Joberg.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Ask yourself who benefits from having tips as opposed to not having tips and including a tipping charge in the price of the hunt instead? It is certainly not for the benefit of the client.There needs to be a gentleman's outfitter to come along and state that his staff will not accept tips.

George,

This would be the safari operator that had no camp staff the next season. The system is what it is. Like it or not AR is not going to change that. I'd bet a good chunk of change that if I posted for instance a 10 day buffalo hunt and stated in the ad that the price was all inclusive of any gratuity BUT the price was higher than the norm to be commensurate with the included gratuity that very few if any hunters would be interested. This would remove the discretionary aspect of tipping.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Ask yourself who benefits from having tips as opposed to not having tips and including a tipping charge in the price of the hunt instead? It is certainly not for the benefit of the client.There needs to be a gentleman's outfitter to come along and state that his staff will not accept tips.

George,

This would be the safari operator that had no camp staff the next season. The system is what it is. Like it or not AR is not going to change that. I'd bet a good chunk of change that if I posted for instance a 10 day buffalo hunt and stated in the ad that the price was all inclusive of any gratuity BUT the price was higher than the norm to be commensurate with the included gratuity that very few if any hunters would be interested. This would remove the discretionary aspect of tipping.

Mark

I would think just the opposite.People would say he is speaking our language-aside from the point in stating that the price is higher than the norm.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I have had some reports from some of our members where apparently they are presented with a list of everyone in camp - with what is expected as a tip, and they were told this is normal.

The day someone does that to me on my last day in camp, I will throw it away, and not pay a penny, and never deal with that establishment again.

I have done just this on a buff hunt to the Selous. On last evening before departing the next morning the PH began the often used line..."after dinner I will help you with the tipping amounts for staff"...to which I replied "I've hunted here before". True to his word over gin and bitter lemon by the fire he presented me with his hand written list or everyone rom himself to the laundry boy, even suggesting payment only in $USD, when I comment the figures seemed awfully steep ( i.e. laundry boy $750-$800) I was abruptly told "good taste" dictates these be paid.
The next morning after the staff was assembled I walked to each man shook their hands and said "thank you, I have given the PH and envelope". I wonder how that went over after I left the landing strip an the PH opened the envelope with a letter as to why I left no tip.

So did you feel good screwing the staff over the PH's poor handling of the situation? Nothing like punishing the innocent.

When the laundry boy expects a $750-$800 tip - he takes the risk that someone tells him to go pound sand.

I fished the amazon where the expected/mentioned tip for camp staff was $200 and guide was $200. I over tipped.

But being told to tip $750-$800 for the laundry guy is a shakedown.

Mike

The laundry boy shakedown the client? Did the laundry boy say he expected a tip of that size? Again, I think all the hubbub about tipping is largely a case of miser's seeking to rationalize their own behavior.

The PH was telling the client to tip in US dollars and tip the laundry boy $750-$800 and that it was customary. The whole operation was a shakedown of clients.

Now you can the psoter of making this all up but I will take his word for it.

And for all this talk about being miserly can you please tell all the AR people how much above the CMS suggested tipping schedule do you tip so we know what is not miserly.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I have had some reports from some of our members where apparently they are presented with a list of everyone in camp - with what is expected as a tip, and they were told this is normal.

The day someone does that to me on my last day in camp, I will throw it away, and not pay a penny, and never deal with that establishment again.

I have done just this on a buff hunt to the Selous. On last evening before departing the next morning the PH began the often used line..."after dinner I will help you with the tipping amounts for staff"...to which I replied "I've hunted here before". True to his word over gin and bitter lemon by the fire he presented me with his hand written list or everyone rom himself to the laundry boy, even suggesting payment only in $USD, when I comment the figures seemed awfully steep ( i.e. laundry boy $750-$800) I was abruptly told "good taste" dictates these be paid.
The next morning after the staff was assembled I walked to each man shook their hands and said "thank you, I have given the PH and envelope". I wonder how that went over after I left the landing strip an the PH opened the envelope with a letter as to why I left no tip.

So did you feel good screwing the staff over the PH's poor handling of the situation? Nothing like punishing the innocent.

When the laundry boy expects a $750-$800 tip - he takes the risk that someone tells him to go pound sand.

I fished the amazon where the expected/mentioned tip for camp staff was $200 and guide was $200. I over tipped.

But being told to tip $750-$800 for the laundry guy is a shakedown.

Mike

The laundry boy shakedown the client? Did the laundry boy say he expected a tip of that size? Again, I think all the hubbub about tipping is largely a case of miser's seeking to rationalize their own behavior.

The PH was telling the client to tip in US dollars and tip the laundry boy $750-$800 and that it was customary. The whole operation was a shakedown of clients.

Now you can the psoter of making this all up but I will take his word for it.

And for all this talk about being miserly can you please tell all the AR people how much above the CMS suggested tipping schedule do you tip so we know what is not miserly .

Mike

His lawyer recommended he not share that information online.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I have had some reports from some of our members where apparently they are presented with a list of everyone in camp - with what is expected as a tip, and they were told this is normal.

The day someone does that to me on my last day in camp, I will throw it away, and not pay a penny, and never deal with that establishment again.

I have done just this on a buff hunt to the Selous. On last evening before departing the next morning the PH began the often used line..."after dinner I will help you with the tipping amounts for staff"...to which I replied "I've hunted here before". True to his word over gin and bitter lemon by the fire he presented me with his hand written list or everyone rom himself to the laundry boy, even suggesting payment only in $USD, when I comment the figures seemed awfully steep ( i.e. laundry boy $750-$800) I was abruptly told "good taste" dictates these be paid.
The next morning after the staff was assembled I walked to each man shook their hands and said "thank you, I have given the PH and envelope". I wonder how that went over after I left the landing strip an the PH opened the envelope with a letter as to why I left no tip.

So did you feel good screwing the staff over the PH's poor handling of the situation? Nothing like punishing the innocent.

When the laundry boy expects a $750-$800 tip - he takes the risk that someone tells him to go pound sand.

I fished the amazon where the expected/mentioned tip for camp staff was $200 and guide was $200. I over tipped.

But being told to tip $750-$800 for the laundry guy is a shakedown.

Mike

The laundry boy shakedown the client? Did the laundry boy say he expected a tip of that size? Again, I think all the hubbub about tipping is largely a case of miser's seeking to rationalize their own behavior.

The PH was telling the client to tip in US dollars and tip the laundry boy $750-$800 and that it was customary. The whole operation was a shakedown of clients.

Now you can the psoter of making this all up but I will take his word for it.

And for all this talk about being miserly can you please tell all the AR people how much above the CMS suggested tipping schedule do you tip so we know what is not miserly.

Mike

. . . punish the laundry boy for the sins of the PH . . . makes sense to me.

With my blessing, please drop Buzz a PM and ask him directly about my tipping . . . on successful hunts as well as unsuccessful hunts. That way it can never be said that I have tipped the scale (pun intended) in my favor. It is great to hear though that with recommended tips of $200/staff and $200/guide you over tipped. That is stepping up.

Like I said on another thread, the comments from some folks regarding the propriety of this and that are actually comical given the source of the comments and prior events.

I think we should have this discussion on tipping - it is informative to clients and to individuals employed in the hunting industry.

For camp staff I follow the ph recommendation - if I feel like I was ever getting shaken down I will have the conversation with the ph.

For the ph I normally have $100 a day floor.

For the aggregate safari I would use 15-20 percent of my daily rate as he tipping amount - ph and staff.

I would not used trophy fees in my tipping calculation.

I to tip higher on a package hunt as the all in hunt costs are often pretty low.

In Botswana I tipped the camp manager and they actually wrote it down in a record book - I like Botswana everything is very official.

In zim I like to tip directly cause every time I transfer dirty green dollars to someone I feel I have cheated uncle bob a little.

Burkina I tip directly and I even sent a tip a year later cause I thought I under tipped 2 people

In Alaska I did not tip anyone in camp but I sent a check to the guide later

In Amazon I tipped the camp manager and the guide directly. I also gave guide nearly everything I had.


For African phs the tip is 40-60 percent of annual income.


Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

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Originally posted by Beretta682E:

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Originally posted by MJines:

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Originally posted by Beretta682E:

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Originally posted by MJines:

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Originally posted by 2th doc:

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Originally posted by Saeed:

I have had some reports from some of our members where apparently they are presented with a list of everyone in camp - with what is expected as a tip, and they were told this is normal.

The day someone does that to me on my last day in camp, I will throw it away, and not pay a penny, and never deal with that establishment again.

I have done just this on a buff hunt to the Selous. On last evening before departing the next morning the PH began the often used line..."after dinner I will help you with the tipping amounts for staff"...to which I replied "I've hunted here before". True to his word over gin and bitter lemon by the fire he presented me with his hand written list or everyone rom himself to the laundry boy, even suggesting payment only in $USD, when I comment the figures seemed awfully steep ( i.e. laundry boy $750-$800) I was abruptly told "good taste" dictates these be paid.
The next morning after the staff was assembled I walked to each man shook their hands and said "thank you, I have given the PH and envelope". I wonder how that went over after I left the landing strip an the PH opened the envelope with a letter as to why I left no tip.

So did you feel good screwing the staff over the PH's poor handling of the situation? Nothing like punishing the innocent.

When the laundry boy expects a $750-$800 tip - he takes the risk that someone tells him to go pound sand.

I fished the amazon where the expected/mentioned tip for camp staff was $200 and guide was $200. I over tipped.

But being told to tip $750-$800 for the laundry guy is a shakedown.

Mike

The laundry boy shakedown the client? Did the laundry boy say he expected a tip of that size? Again, I think all the hubbub about tipping is largely a case of miser's seeking to rationalize their own behavior.

The PH was telling the client to tip in US dollars and tip the laundry boy $750-$800 and that it was customary. The whole operation was a shakedown of clients.

Now you can the psoter of making this all up but I will take his word for it.

And for all this talk about being miserly can you please tell all the AR people how much above the CMS suggested tipping schedule do you tip so we know what is not miserly.

Mike

. . . punish the laundry boy for the sins of the PH . . . makes sense to me.

With my blessing, please drop Buzz a PM and ask him directly about my tipping . . . on successful hunts as well as unsuccessful hunts. That way it can never be said that I have tipped the scale (pun intended) in my favor. It is great to hear though that with recommended tips of $200/staff and $200/guide you over tipped. That is stepping up.

Like I said on another thread, the comments from some folks regarding the propriety of this and that are actually comical given the source of the comments and prior events.

Chicken shit you come here and accuse people of being miserly. You have something to say about my tip on which I listed exactly what the outfitter recommended. But then when asked how you tip in accordance with your outfitters recommended tip you ask me to ask buzz.

Buzz being a professional I think I have a better shot of him telling me what his cut to zanu-of is than your tip.

But it is chickenshit to accuse people of being miserly and not having the balls to man and say what you did. Weak ethical standards in my book to call people out and not be able to walk the line.

Mike

Chickenshit . . . seriously . . . coming from you of all people. Seriously ironic.

. . . and yes, I believe a lot of the grumbling about tipping is from folks that are fundamentally cheap but too weak to stand by their own principles and not tip. So they tip reluctantly and then bitch and moan about it. Speaking of which . . . chickenshit is a pretty good term of that sort of thing.

quote:

hickenshit . . . seriously . . . coming from you of all people. Seriously ironic.

Why is it "ironic"?

You should speak plainly if you're going to take shots at people...

Hi Saeed

Since you copied my post here I feel obligant to respond to your concern.

When I post that gratitude’s are not included, it is by no means an indication to a client that he should tip.

All my staff gets well paid and if you look at my prices compared to others you will see that I am well below most outfitters. I bargain a deal with a landowner and put that discount back into the package to benefit my clients. (When was the last time you saw a Zebra for $375.00)
I still pay my staff what they should be paid for the day’s labor.

Never has it been implicated that a client should pay a tip and if any staff member including a PH demands a tip he will be dismissed on the spot.

Anyone who has hunted with me can confirm that I do not take tips on behalf of the staff and I have never asked or demanded a tip for staff. That is, if they feel like tipping, something that they do themselves.
I did however take tips last year and distributed it among the staff and in return I told them all to go and thank the client personally.

I would have understood your concern better if it stated that
Tips Were Included
X - Amount is expected
Or if there were a section left open in the bill for tips
Or maybe if we charged skinning fees, laundry fees, cooking fees etc.
I have seen price lists that charge for skinning.
E30.00 for a cape
E25.00 for a flat skin
E20.00 for a scull
E95.00 for a full mount

Do you think this would be more appropriate in the future?

Accommodation Includes
01. Service of a Licensed Professional Hunter
02. The service of trained trackers
03. The service of trained skinners
04. Hunting vehicle
05. Field preparation of trophies
06. Accommodation, meals and soft drinks as well as beer and wine in moderation
07. Daily laundry service

Accommodation do not include
01. Anything not mentioned in the above list is not included

Your guidance will be appreciated

Kind regards
Bossie

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Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

hickenshit . . . seriously . . . coming from you of all people. Seriously ironic.

Why is it "ironic"?

You should speak plainly if you're going to take shots at people...

+1

But I seriously doubt he has anything to say. Just a chickenshit.

Mike

Interesting discussion.

I wonder if the perception of being "cheap" should be adjusted to account for net worth. I suspect there are tons of posters on here with a much, much greater net worth than Joyce and me. That said, are they "cheap" if they tip the same amount or LESS than I do?

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

hickenshit . . . seriously . . . coming from you of all people. Seriously ironic.

Why is it "ironic"?

You should speak plainly if you're going to take shots at people...

. . . perhaps he will regale you with camp stories . . . I do not intend to.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Interesting discussion.

I wonder if the perception of being "cheap" should be adjusted to account for net worth. I suspect there are tons of posters on here with a much, much greater net worth than Joyce and me. That said, are they "cheap" if they tip the same amount or LESS than I do?

Cheers
Jim

If some billionaire leaves camp just before I get there and drops 10k to his PH and a few grand to the staff, I'm sure I'll be viewed as a cheap fucker when I leave..however, I tip to the best of my ability and leave satisfied I tipped according to the service I was provided.