https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.3

If I feel you are a security threat my PIC authority overrides any and all other regulations.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

As soon as the police were called, it was out of the airline's hands so their culpability will be limited.

I'll bet serious money "their culpability" won't be limited. I'll also bet they settle. True, the airlines can eject or reject a passenger BUT once they have seated him, AND the ejection is for non-emergent, non-passenger caused reasons, I think they will be found seriously liable. I also think the doctor, acting in the way he did, seriously escalated his eventual payoff. I suspect he will receive at least 6 figures (100K) plus which is a helluva lot more than he would have gotten if he had "walked off the plane without being dragged." We'll see, but I suspect the settlement will be sealed.

In addition, until further details arise, I am not sure the Chicago PD have any real blame. They are told they have a passenger who refuses to leave the plane and to remove him. I am not at all sure they knew many details.

First off these was not the Chicago Police Department. This is the Aviation Security Department which is a stand alone department attached to ORD. They are police not security guards and have full arrest powers.
Just FYI.

I'm willing to bet that the Dr.in question gets more than 6 figures. I'll also bet that this settles quickly with no court.

No bet gato,

I answered to that on page 2.

There is no question that the pilot in command CAN have a passenger removed, IF the passenger is a security threat.

In this case - and seems others as well coming to light - passengers are being removed after boarding the plane to make way for crew members.

This is a definitely extreme, as evidenced by United changing their rules that passengers WILL NEVER BE REMOVED TO MAKE A PLACE FOR CREW MEMBERS!

How nice of them they think of this now.

I am willing to up Gatos bet if anyone is willing to take it.

That United IS going to pay for this. Either in court, or by settlement.

The airline can have all the excuses they wish to have BEFORE boarding a paying passenger.

They can have a passenger removed for several safety reasons. Again, no question on that.

But, removing a paying passenger after he was issued a boarding tickets and seated to make way for a crew member is never going to fly.

Whatever this passenger has done in the past - United past does not look very glamorous either.

He has done a great service to the flying passengers.

The only thing that David Dao has accomplished is hopefully educate the flying public you have NO excuse or right to refuse a lawful order to remove yourself from an aircraft. Copycates are only going to receive similar treatment.

Flying is going to be more entertaining in the near future I predict.

quote:

you have NO excuse or right to refuse a lawful order to remove yourself from an aircraft

The key word is "lawful" and, as has been pointed out, that is reasonably well defined and in Dao's case, it was NOT lawful.

quote:

If I feel you are a security threat my PIC authority overrides any and all other regulations.

No argument there, but removing him will certainly be subject to the "reasonable person" standard, and if the pilot, for some capricious reason, declares a person to be a security threat when no reasonable person would have viewed the situation in the same light, then the pilot and his employer will be subject to legal recourse.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
The only thing that David Dao has accomplished is hopefully educate the flying public you have NO excuse or right to refuse a lawful order to remove yourself from an aircraft. Copycates are only going to receive similar treatment.

Flying is going to be more entertaining in the near future I predict.

I suppose that is why United are bending backwards for damage control?

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
The only thing that David Dao has accomplished is hopefully educate the flying public you have NO excuse or right to refuse a lawful order to remove yourself from an aircraft. Copycates are only going to receive similar treatment.

Flying is going to be more entertaining in the near future I predict.

All I have seen is airlines starting to realize they are ultimately in the service business not the industrial cargo business.

Delta offering up to $10K is the right step for overbooked flights. Best to run a auction for overbooked flights. People are cheap and most have low opportunity costs.

Bribe people with hotel stay, food vouchers, free flights before you drag people of off planes.

Overall us airlines suck - as a consumer I would fly alternatives like emirates on international flights.

As a airline shareholder (at times) improve customer service to a bare minimum of not dragging paying customers of planes or trade at a 5-6 multiple regardless of the financial performance.

One act by united destroyed hundreds of millions of crappy advertising and brand management - the brand was rotten for a long while.

http://www.worldairlineawards...._airline_rating.html

Mike

A man resists against a law he sees as unfair. The result in this case is positive change for others as airlines change some practices. Today is the running of the Boston Marathon on Patriots Day. If the Sons of Liberty did not resist the laws they saw as unfair there would be no tea in Boston harbor and we would all still be speaking the King's English .

all I will say is after 9/11 if i'm on an airplane and someone that works for the company or an officer of the law tells me to do something you bet your ass I will comply

I will do my best to fight it after the fact but on an airplane is no place to cause a stir

One of the best statements here Tim629.
And I had a passenger forceably removed one night in Norfolk....in fact he was picked up by 2 local cops and carried off....all the while chanting:

"no sah....I be good....I be good...ain't gonna do nofin to her....I be good.....".....all the way up the aisle and out the jetway......buh bye!

I agree.

I fly a hell of a lot for work. Several times in these travels, I have seen people taken off planes by law enforcement. Each and every time, there was seriously bad behavior by the passenger.

I rather think the courts will consider removing a passenger by force for being disruptive or a threat is very different to removing a passenger (who had paid for his ticket & was sitting quietly) by force (and then giving him a good hiding once off the aircraft) simply because a staff member made a mistake when allocating the seats.

United couldn't have handled it worse if they'd tried & had several other options but chose not to take any of them.

My guess is he'll get a VERY big payout & in my opinion, quite deservedly.

This article list all the facts and its pretty damning to united

https://www.wsj.com/articles/b...ll-police-1492384610

Randomly picking passengers sounds all cool till you are one of the passengers.

What if you are going on a vacation with your family - say on a cruise when you have to be there or you lose your booking?

What if you are going on a job interview or business trip?

Traveling with family and children and you are picked to stay back.

Everyone is so happy to says it in the contract fine print but when Delta or another airline decides to stop carry hunting trophies or says no guns in cargo everyone gets ready to sue the airline.

All they had to do was keep bidding beyond $800 and eventually they would have gotten 4 passengers to leave. Its not like the passengers had formed a cartel - they were just p*ssed at being asked to leave a boarded flight.

Mike

Another issue against United that'll be addressed at some point is that they (allegedly) allowed Dr. Dao's bags to remain on the aircraft & travel after he'd been removed & that's a serious breach of aircraft security law........ The fine will probably be negligible compared to what they'll have to pay the passenger but it will be in the thousands of dollars & probably in the tens of thousands of dollars.

I'm going from memory but seem to remember the fine was USD5k per bag 20 years ago so probably considerably more now.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Another issue against United that'll be addressed at some point is that they (allegedly) allowed Dr. Dao's bags to remain on the aircraft & travel after he'd been removed & that's a serious breach of aircraft security law........ The fine will probably be negligible compared to what they'll have to pay the passenger but it will be in the thousands of dollars & probably in the tens of thousands of dollars.

I'm going from memory but seem to remember the fine was USD5k per bag 20 years ago so probably considerably more now.

On international flights only. Domestically there is no positive bag match requirement. In any case if there was a violation regarding bags it would have been filed against Republic Airlines, the carrier he was ridding on, not United.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Another issue against United that'll be addressed at some point is that they (allegedly) allowed Dr. Dao's bags to remain on the aircraft & travel after he'd been removed & that's a serious breach of aircraft security law........ The fine will probably be negligible compared to what they'll have to pay the passenger but it will be in the thousands of dollars & probably in the tens of thousands of dollars.

I'm going from memory but seem to remember the fine was USD5k per bag 20 years ago so probably considerably more now.

On international flights only. Domestically there is no positive bag match requirement. In any case if there was a violation regarding bags it would have been filed against Republic Airlines, the carrier he was ridding on, not United.

I could well be out of date on the bag issue but will try to check with some of my old friends.

Not sure what you mean by your comment about Republic.......... Was it a code share flight? - If so. the UK & Portuguese media haven't mentioned that at all as far as I'm aware.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Another issue against United that'll be addressed at some point is that they (allegedly) allowed Dr. Dao's bags to remain on the aircraft & travel after he'd been removed & that's a serious breach of aircraft security law........ The fine will probably be negligible compared to what they'll have to pay the passenger but it will be in the thousands of dollars & probably in the tens of thousands of dollars.

I'm going from memory but seem to remember the fine was USD5k per bag 20 years ago so probably considerably more now.

On international flights only. Domestically there is no positive bag match requirement. In any case if there was a violation regarding bags it would have been filed against Republic Airlines, the carrier he was ridding on, not United.

I could well be out of date on the bag issue but will try to check with some of my old friends.

Not sure what you mean by your comment about Republic.......... Was it a code share flight? - If so. the UK & Portuguese media haven't mentioned that at all as far as I'm aware.

Amazing....The press didn't get the facts before reporting!! Tell me it ain't true!

This occured on a Republic Airlines aircraft, the the deadheading crew were Republic Airlines flight attendants. The passenger was removed by ORD security services not the Chicago PD. The only United employee involved was the gate agent.

You are not out of date on your comment regarding checked baggage removal. There are different rules governing domestic and flag (international) regulations.

Looks like united is getting push back from corporate clients on its level of customer care and basic passenger treatment.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u...icy-fixes-1492535023

The senseless beating of the doctor shows the police state we have welcomed in air travel, airlines since 9/11.

The level of customer service has dropped so low it will only go up. That will be a positive change for passengers and airline stockholders. Some airline employees might have to realize they are in the service business not the freight business.

Mike

I agree the wedding party was completely out of line; United has always insisted if you want the extra leg room, you pay for it. I don't see any issues with removing them.

On the other hand, I don't see Dao's re-boarding as weird - he changed his mind after finding out United could not get him to his destination until 3 pm the next day. If he was told that upfront, he would not have deplaned.

The fact the Republic crew didn't show up until minutes before the gate closed is also lost in all the noise here. IMO, they should have taken an taxi - hell, it was only a four hour drive.

Finally, any captain removing someone from a plane for security issues better remember the whole thing is going to be on YouTube, so think wisely...

Army's of cell phone cameras do not, will not and never should make the slightest difference in an airline captains authority or judgement. Public opinion has no bearing on the safety of flight nor should it.

Here is an interesting read.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2...me-might-not-expect/

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Army's of cell phone cameras do not, will not and never should make the slightest difference in an airline captains authority or judgement. Public opinion has no bearing on the safety of flight nor should it.

Yeah, public opinion has bearing on flight safety, but your ass it has plenty of bearing on removing a seated passage for a flight crew!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
CEOs never have a clue what the fallout of their stupid actions will be .
For those of you good in math --Add up the cost of hiring a 4 passenger plane for the employees , vs the bad PR [" I'll never fly UAL again" ] stock prices , law suits etc , etc . I hope the CEO is pushed out !

Do you think the CEO knew anything about this until well after the episode was over? There is not a chance in hell he did.

The CEO had his head squarely up his ass. His initial tweet was really, really stupid. What was the upside of that tweet. He seemed to have temporarily forgotten that the passengers pay the bills.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
That's a matter of opinion Mike. And probably why our little snowflake hasn't actually filed a lawsuit, only threatened to file one. Outside of San Francisco and maybe Chicago he may have a difficult time finding a sympathetic jury.

Difficulty finding a sympathetic jury????? Are you out of your mind?? I think anyone that flies would be very sympathetic to his case. I know I would. Pay for a seat...get seated....get kicked off for flight crew....then get ruffed up. I think the Airlines would have a MUCH harder time finding a sympathetic jury.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . pretty poor analogy . . . this fellow was not "speeding" or doing anything else "wrong" . . . he was singled out by the airline to accommodate other airline employees when the airline refused to step up the plate economically.

Tell you what, let's just let it ride and see what sort of pay day the fellow gets then we can revisit the issue . . .

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Was this guy inconvenienced? I am sure he was. United was trying to get employees to another airport. Guess what was going to happen if these employees did not get to that airport? Every single person on at least one flight, perhaps more flights was going to be stuck in the Louisville airport, waiting until a flight crew arrived. This often starts a domino effect. One flight is late. This means a whole bunch of people start to miss connecting flights. Off we go with a chain reaction of delays that can spread like wildfire. It happened to me last week.

Ridiculous argument. You are saying that attacking a paying passenger was the only solution. Ummmm, they can offer enough MONEY that someone will take them up on it. There is no way that someone on that flight would not have stood up and voluntarily left for a couple of thousand and free hotel and food. Ummmm, there are private jets available for rental that would get the crew to Louisville on time. Ummm, there are other airlines that possibly could have accomodated the flight crew. ANY of the above will prove to be hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars cheaper than the actual result AND no one down stream would have had a flight cancelled.

At some level, someone would have happily skipped off that plane with big ass smile on their face,....at a fraction of the eventual cost to United.

Right now, $2,000 is looking real cheap to United.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
Looks like united is getting push back from corporate clients on its level of customer care and basic passenger treatment.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u...icy-fixes-1492535023

The senseless beating of the doctor shows the police state we have welcomed in air travel, airlines since 9/11.

The level of customer service has dropped so low it will only go up. That will be a positive change for passengers and airline stockholders. Some airline employees might have to realize they are in the service business not the freight business.

Mike

United sucks!!! I have been Platinum or Gold on United for years,..and Continental before the merger. From a customer perspective, Continental was a much better airlines.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

These passengers repeatedly attempted to sit in upgraded seating which they did not purchase and they would not follow crew instructions to return to their assigned seats.

Ummm so who is to blame here?

Once again, behave like adults, follow simple instructions, know your rights, know what aren't your "rights" or suffer the consequences...

The wedding party were idiots. If you want the premium seat, you gotta pay for it. They should have been kicked off the plane for the delaying the flight.

Dao should not have been kicked off the plane.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
The only thing that David Dao has accomplished is hopefully educate the flying public you have NO excuse or right to refuse a lawful order to remove yourself from an aircraft. Copycates are only going to receive similar treatment.

Flying is going to be more entertaining in the near future I predict.

I'd say he has accomplished a little more you say above.

He going to get some sort of payout well above $800 offered that evening.

United and other airlines are changing their policy on ejecting paying passengers for flight crews.

The airlines are also raising the amounts they are willing to pay customers to volunteer taking later flights.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.3

If I feel you are a security threat my PIC authority overrides any and all other regulations.

No doubt. When security and safety are in question, pilot should have authority to kick someone off a plane. Also for idiots like the wedding party, not following rules. However Dao was fine until he randomly picked. Once you are seated on a plane, and you follow the rules and behave yourself, you should never kicked off a plane so the airline can fly employees.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.3

If I feel you are a security threat my PIC authority overrides any and all other regulations.

No doubt. When security and safety are in question, pilot should have authority to kick someone off a plane. Also for idiots like the wedding party, not following rules. However Dao was fine until he randomly picked. Once you are seated on a plane, and you follow the rules and behave yourself, you should never kicked off a plane so the airline can fly employees.

Exactly!

And I bet the two lawyers he has employed are going to get some serious money too.

United CEO has proven he is an utter idiot!

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Army's of cell phone cameras do not, will not and never should make the slightest difference in an airline captains authority or judgement. Public opinion has no bearing on the safety of flight nor should it.

Yeah, public opinion has bearing on flight safety, but your ass it has plenty of bearing on removing a seated passage for a flight crew!!!!

So you're saying that if the popular opinion from the passengers is to go with illegal or unsafe weather or a mechanical deficiency that is up for a vote? The rules concerning safety of flight are inflexible and they are that way to keep people like you safe from yourself.

I've got bad news for you pal, unruly passengers are a safety hazard too. That's my call wether they stay or not, period, end of story. The term final authority is not open to interpretation.

He was not unruly.

He was minding his own business, until United decided to give his seat, which he has already paid for, and been issued a boarding pass for, and seated on, to one of their crew members.

I totally agree with you that any behavior that puts the flight and passengers in any danger, should be put an end too.

And I also know that the pilot in command, can take any action he sees fit to make sure this does not happen.

But, in this case the passenger did not do anything to endanger the flight.

United did.

With their stupidity.

Are you willing to bet that the passenger gets compensation for his ordeal??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
He was not unruly.

He was minding his own business, until United decided to give his seat, which he has already paid for, and been issued a boarding pass for, and seated on, to one of their crew members.

I totally agree with you that any behavior that puts the flight and passengers in any danger, should be put an end too.

And I also know that the pilot in command, can take any action he sees fit to make sure this does not happen.

But, in this case the passenger did not do anything to endanger the flight.

United did.

With their stupidity.

Are you willing to bet that the passenger gets compensation for his ordeal??

No bet as previously answered. However, since when does a settlement or monetary judgement for a plaintive in a civil case define whether he was right or wrong? That's not how it works in our society.

It's all about perception and who had the most dramatic 10 seconds of cell phone video, and the slickest attorney. A video which BTW, and of course shows nothing approaching the truth or the whole story.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Army's of cell phone cameras do not, will not and never should make the slightest difference in an airline captains authority or judgement. Public opinion has no bearing on the safety of flight nor should it.

Yeah, public opinion has bearing on flight safety, but your ass it has plenty of bearing on removing a seated passage for a flight crew!!!!

So you're saying that if the popular opinion from the passengers is to go with illegal or unsafe weather or a mechanical deficiency that is up for a vote? The rules concerning safety of flight are inflexible and they are that way to keep people like you safe from yourself.

I've got bad news for you pal, unruly passengers are a safety hazard too. That's my call wether they stay or not, period, end of story. The term final authority is not open to interpretation.

Nope I screwed up the first part up. I left out the "No".

Again, when it comes to safety, public opinion should NO bearing on safety. If conditions are unsafe for whatever reason that is 100% the pilots call, or even if someone is not a causing safety issue but not following rules, like the Costa Rican wedding idiots,...again the pilot's call.

Again However, I've got news for you pal,.... you can bet your ass that public opinion does have bearing on removing a seated passenger for a flight crew. That has nothing to do with safety. Even United bent to Public Opinion on that one, as they have changed their policy.


The airlines seem to have forgotten that the customers are paying their bills,...and customers should be treated like people not cargo. This has me fired up because I witnessed one of these cases. I was on a Sunday evening flight out of Raleigh,NC where United randomly selected 3 SEATED people to kick off the plane for a flight crew. They only offered $450 and a hotel room. Two of the people were pissed off, but left without too much fuse. The third person, a fireman with his family traveling to see his wife's dying father did not go quietly. He raised a big fuse, explained they were going to see a dying relative. Somewhere in the early in the process the flight crew just got pissed off. One of the flight crew basically called him a liar, implying he was making up the sick relative story, as a reason to remain on the plane. He eventually left the plane, but only after security came to his seat and threatened to drag him off the plane in front of his family. His wife and 2 teenage kids stayed on the plane. Then, onto the plane comes the 3 United employees, and one takes the empty seat just vacated by the fireman. They close the door and plane leaves the gate. I was sitting in an isle seat on the row immediately in front of the family. The plane was just pulling away from the gate when the stupid ass United dude made a comment to the upset wife...something to the effect of.....her husband should not have fought the de-boarding, and now we will all be late. At that point,...it was on like DONKEY FUCKING KONG. The wife came unglued. She was screaming at the United idiot. The teenage son flipped out and came to his mother's aid. It got real ugly. The wife demanded to be taken back to the gate so they could get off the plane. The crew made some threats to the wife about going back to the gate, but soon taxied the plane back to the gate. The mother and 2 kids left the plane. We then sat another 15 minutes while they tried to contact the 2 people that were kicked off the plane earlier. Apparently both had already left the airport, so after all that the plane took off with 3 empty seats. I was shocked at how quickly the flight crew got nasty at the beginning of the process, and at the fact they made several negative comments about the family after they deboarded. One of the said, "we all have sick relative, right". As we pulled away from the gate for the 2nd time, the lead flight attendant apologized for the delay. A couple people immediately replied that they should be apologizing to the family not us on the plane.

I felt bad for not giving up my seat, but I had a flight to Singapore the following evening for work. I guess everyone had a reason to keep their seats. By the way, Singapore Airlines is an AWESOME airlines.

Singapore is a great airline? I guess getting your ass kissed is more important than safety and training. They've put one 777 in the mud and failed to evacuate another during a major fire in the last couple of years.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Singapore is a great airline? I guess getting your ass kissed is more important than safety and training. They've put one 777 in the mud and failed to evacuate another during a major fire in the last couple of years.

Well, how about Cathay Pacific? Ms AZW flew them to/from HHG recently and raved about them. She said their B class puts United to shame.

Safety is important, but it is an expectation, not a perk. But beyond that, 9/11 notwithstanding, all crashes due to human intervention/error have been caused by the pilots or mechanics, not by the passengers.

Qantas, Hawaiian, Southwest, Jet Blue, and Virgin (Atlantic/Australia/America, take your pick) have never had a crash, although a Southwest plane did slide off a runway and kill a person on the ground.

So if safety is your only priority, we should all fly Southwest or Jet Blue.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Singapore is a great airline? I guess getting your ass kissed is more important than safety and training. They've put one 777 in the mud and failed to evacuate another during a major fire in the last couple of years.

Surestrike,

You are completely full of SHIT. You know damn good and well that Singapore Airlines is a Safe and Professionally run airlines. Since you mentioned safety, I found that Sing Air was founded in 1947. Sing Air has only had 1 accident involving fatalities in their history. During that same time, United Airlines has had 24 accidents involving fatalities. In fact, United had the flight over Hawaii, where 9 people were blown out of the airplane at 23,000 ft. Show me 1 independent ranking on airline safety, that categorizes Sing Air outside the top tier.

Also I thought your “ass kissing” comments perfectly proved my point. You and your United buddies see treating customers like people as “kissing ass”. At Sing Air they see treating customers as people as their job. It is CUSTOMER SERVICE STUPID!!!!!

Another point, if you look at Global Best Airlines Rankings from the travel industry and customer groups, Sing Air is always in the Top 5. I challenge you to show me one Global Ranking where United Airlines ranks in the top 20.

Skytrax..................Sing Air #3……..United #68
Conde Nast Traverler.....Sing Air #1..….United not ranked in top 20
Trip Advisor.............Sing Air #2……. United not ranked in top 10
Business Insider.........Sing Air #3…..…United not ranked in top 20
Travel & Leisure.........Sing Air #1….….United not ranked in top 10
Flight Stats.............Sing Air #4……..United not ranked in top 20

So why can’t the any of the major US airlines rate highly with customers??? Hmm….I’m guessing the fact that you and industry buddies believe customer service is ass kissing, might have something to do with it. And being a pilot doesn’t mean you know jack shit about customer service.

The superiority complex of the US Airlines reminds me of the US auto makers in the 70’s and 80’s. Back then, Detroit was spitting out pintos, gremlins and chevettes, and getting their asses handed to them by the Japanese auto makers.

One thing I do know, on long haul flights Sing Air, Air Emirates and Cathay Pacific are a better experience than United or American, by a long way.

The US airlines are lucky that the foreign carriers are not allowed to do domestic flights. I know for my next Houston/Seattle flight, I’d much rather be on Sing Air than United.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Singapore is a great airline? I guess getting your ass kissed is more important than safety and training. They've put one 777 in the mud and failed to evacuate another during a major fire in the last couple of years.

Well, how about Cathay Pacific? Ms AZW flew them to/from HHG recently and raved about them. She said their B class puts United to shame.

Safety is important, but it is an expectation, not a perk. But beyond that, 9/11 notwithstanding, all crashes due to human intervention/error have been caused by the pilots or mechanics, not by the passengers.

Qantas, Hawaiian, Southwest, Jet Blue, and Virgin (Atlantic/Australia/America, take your pick) have never had a crash, although a Southwest plane did slide off a runway and kill a person on the ground.

So if safety is your only priority, we should all fly Southwest or Jet Blue.

Sing Air has had 1 crash with passenger deaths since their start up in 1947. Since 1947, United Airlines has had 24 flights causing over 1,000 passenger deaths, and 9 more deaths on the ground.

So 1 flight with fatalities in 70 years,.....I'll happily take my chances on Sing Air and enjoy nice customer service to boot, (or ass kissing Surestrike calls it).

There is no way in hell ANY American airline can compete with airlines like Emirates, Singapore, Etihad etc.

Come to think of it, there is NO EUROPEAN airline that can compete with these either.

Talking of safety concerns, I would rather take my chance with any one of the international carriers that actually treat a passenger with due respect and looks after him, rather than one of those airlines that think they are doing you a favor for carrying you.

I have had numerous run ins with several airlines within Europe. Like Lufthansa and SAS.

I always got my way, by being polite, and insisting that I get what I paid for for, or I do not fly.

An American friend told me yesterday that it is no longer enjoyable to fly within the US.

A few weeks ago we flew BA from London to Vancouver.

At the gate, it was like a bloody mad house. We were 6 passengers with First Class tickets.

There was no separate line for First Business Class boarding, and one could hardly walk in there.

I left my party and made my way to the desk.

Everyone was busy doing something but attending to the passengers.

I called one person with BA uniform.

"When do priority passengers board?" I asked.

"You have to wait your turn mate!" came back his answer.

"Why should we have to wait our turn if we pay for first class then?"

That got his attention, and he said "Oh, sorry. How many are you?"

I told him, and he got us all on board without any further hassle.

And as in total contrast, on the way back from Vancouver, on BA, connecting with Emirates to Dubai. An Emirates rep met us at the arriving gate, and took us directly to the Emirates First Class lounge.

And comparing BA's First Class Lounge at Heathrow to Emirates is like comparing a five start restaurant to McDonald!