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Searcy does not do all the work in a rifle himself, nor does the one off custom gunmaker. Searcy machines his oWn actions, but uses supplied barrels and sights and has someone else stock it. A one off custom [bolt]rifle builder often uses supplied components;action,barrel,bottom metal,sights etc,...but may stock the rifle himself. He may or may not modify the supplied components - or make complete custom ones from scratch. A Searcy sidelock or Rising Bite, ...and a premium Bolt rifle[Echols Classic?] can pan out to about the same price....$40k | |||
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Full bore custom rifle from a top name maker. $30,000 shop rate of 75/hr 30,000/75=400 hours labor. 40 hour work week equals 2080 hours per year. 2080/400=5.2 full blown custom rifles a year. Those are very optimistic or pessimistic depending upon your view numbers because not all of that 30,000 is labor nor is it all done in-house typically. Parts of that 30,000 goes to barrels, actions, other metal components, wood, furniture, bluing, engraving etc significantly bringing down the man hours spent by the smith. Now maybe the smith works for much less then a 75/hr rate too. I have no idea how they value their time. How can one be months and months and years even overdue? Answer...........your project is in the safe not being worked on. There in a nutshell is the issue many have. It's not the man-hours required or any desire to rush the actual work. Its all the time spent between the actual work. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Artisan:[def] A skilled manual worker; a craftsperson. a worker who has special skill and training a skilled worker who practices some trade or handicraft A worker in a skilled trade, esp. one that involves making things by hand. Yes, a lot of an artisans efforts can involve repetition,regardless of what his field/speciality is. Im glad my artisan baker who creates a renown an unique delicious slow fermented sourdough[baked with caramelised garlic cloves marinated in balsamic vinegar,extra virgin olive oil and spices], is willing and able to repeat his skill on a daily basis...  Echols Classic Rifle:- Functional elegance that endures Introduced in 1980, the Echols & Co. Classic rifle is a continually evolving integration of artistic style and mechanical perfection. This Classic rifle is more than an expression of artistic ability. It is a working rifle designed and tested to endure generations of rigorous field use. The Echols & Co. Classic rifle offers superior handling characteristics, flawless function, and exceptional durability. | |||
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Howard: Why doesn't Terry and others tell us what they get free when they write about it? They act like they paid their hard earned cash for something they got for free. Why don't they? Obviously because the "exposure" will be a lot less effective. It may not be lying, but it isn't being very truthful. | |||
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What? Of course, a one off builder doesn't build every part. I'm refering to the one man shop who does the metalwork and the stockwork by himself. Who are they farming the work out to? Searcy isn't close to that, nor are the others. Roger Kehr Kehr Engraving Company (360)456-0831 | |||
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Duane: You are perhaps the most famous custom rifle builder on this site. How much free work have you given out? I know Jim Carmichel has written about you in the past. How much of your fame is due to him? I recall him once recollecting that a bay window that he put in his house cost him as much as a custom rifle (he was trying to illustrate the value of allocating one's hard earned capital to custom rifles). My guess is that bay window cost him a lot more. Incidentally, he is one guy I have a lot of respect for; one of the few hunting writers who have been on the cover of Precision Shooter. Obviously your choice to answer or not. | |||
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Be kind enough to give examples of high level 'one man shop" gunmakers where all the metalwork and woodwork [to rifle completion ready for delivery], is always done by him and only him. Even in completed rifles that supposedly emerge from a "one man shop", there are examples where other skilled folk have been involved somewhere in the build-completion process. They may in some instances work under the same roof or the rifle may have require shipping. There certainly are dedicated custom gunmakers who are known to make some of their own proprietary components rather than more ordinarily ordering them in from Blackburn,Talley or NECG [like a number of other custom smiths commonly and conveniently do.] Echols will create [or have created] his own sights,custom bottom metal,magboxes, M98 bolt releases and proprietary scope rings, as required. Dave Miller,Ralf Martini,Hagn,Heilmann,Wiebe,Anderson,Burgess have also created their own components at one time or another, rather buying more common off the shelf custom production parts. But one cannot say that every rifle that has ever come out of each of their individual shops, has been exclusively worked on by that particular individual smith alone. Gunmakers like Max Ern will himself cut rifle the barrels that go into his Rigby -Bissel rising bite design doubles. He also does his own color case. His dedicated & skilled wife, Everly Ern, does the engraving in-house. | |||
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I guess I have never noticed writers making it seem on way or the other. Either that they got work for free or insinuating that they paid out of their own pocket. I guess if I thought about it at all I would have assumed that they were provided product for the purposes of evaluation and then it was returned. Depending upon the dollar value etc. Obviously you can't return ammo and it makes no sense to return inexpensive items. I believe that is typical of how manufacturers, Remington, Leupold etc work. I really don't think David Miller is giving away rifles in exchange for advertising. If you find it untruthful........well isn't that how the whole publishing industry works? You think Leupold will buy ad space in a publication if their writers make a habit of trashing Leupold? You think Ford will by space in Peterson's Publishing if they push Chevy and trash Ford? Its why I find much more useful, real life, reviews and info in places like this web site despite all the obvious garbage you have to wade through. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Trax, Your trying to pull me into an arguement that isn't even related to the original thread. Start another thread to vent your anger and frustration at gunmakers who don't make the steel, that makes the barrel that they didn't rifle, that goes on the action they didn't build. For pity sakes... Roger Kehr Kehr Engraving Company (360)456-0831 | |||
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If you buy from an individual producer of anything you've agreed to buy into whatever personal issues happen to that person between order and delivery. Usually the seller has little control over the worst of them. To expect them to have reserves of labor or other alternatives that a bigger shop would have is unrealistic. And as far as hours divided by weeks by years; add in bookeeping, tax preparation, equipment maintenance and replacement, taking the occasional crap or whatever and a good man's actual working day is 50% production and 50% keeping the business going. My hat's off to those who choose to put themselves through that. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Perhaps it was your sparkling wit and marvelous personality...... Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Howard: I am too busy to write as much as I would like, but a few years ago I adopted a policy of stating what I get for free. So far, no editor has complained. Believe me, most of what gets shipped to gun writers is never shipped back. I have no problem with that but I wish it was acknowledged. | |||
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I have no trouble answering that! Jim gave me a jump start and I'll go on record that I'm forever greatful. We have become good friends over the years, he has had me do work that I've billed at prevailing prices and he has promptly paid. Many years ago, I took the advice of Joe Oakley about pricing on the FIRST job... He said it was common practice to give a small discount (10%) and...that's what I did. Yes...in the real world there is a little quid pro quo! | |||
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Chuck Grace who builds some of my rifles does. | |||
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I generally find a lot to disagree with in Wieland's writing, but not in this case. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Saying that the gunsmith trade is too specialized, too complicated, they have to rely on third parties for product, blah-blah-blah and this is why they can't commit to a schedule is complete BS. Many of us here complete extremely complicated projects that are constantly relying on third parties to complete and always sign contracts with liquidated damages. But what I will agree to is many of the top smiths that we are talking about here are in very short supply and often have a line of customers that want projects done. I believe that it is because of this demand that they have not needed to be punctual or have good communication with customers. I think they are in short supply because at the end of the day I don't think they make a pile of money. Mac | |||
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 Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Thanks Duane. I have always admired Jim and you. | |||
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Although that is generally the case, I have experienced the opposite, like the single shot expert who went bankrupt and since he could not remember whose rifle the 44 1/2 Stevens with the loop lever and the double set triggers was, although I had delivered it to him personally, it was sold off at the sheriff's sale. Then there was the gunsmith who took a straightforward rebarrelling job, stopped answering emails and phone calls, which began six months after the promised delivery date. He demanded a percentage of the charge up fromt, then a second payment, both of which were timely paid, and I finally got the rifle, not made to specifications three years later. Then there is the gunsmith in Germany who agreed to take delivery on guns I bought on a German auction site and modify them to my specifications, who has had the guns four years and for reasons known only to him refuses to send me a bill and will not ship the guns, depite my having gone through four or five import permits,, which are only good for one year. I have already paid him several thousand Euros on account and visited his shop several times in person. Go figure. Most of the gunsmiths I have dealt with have done what I requested, on time, and within the price range quoted. There is no lack of exceptions, however | |||
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I haven't read the article, but if that is what he said, it is the truth.... But so what.......nothing said should be a surprise to anyone here. He basically stated the obvious...... the caveat emptor or any pre-procedural informed consent.....that one acknowledges when ordering a custom gun...... Just par for the course. SOP-Toss the builder some money and wait. Pestering doesn't help either. Don't forget the balance sheet of the gun builder is based upon the ponzi scheme- the next client's $ finishes the first client's gun. Not that it's wrong or anyone should have any issues with that as long as the builder actually pushes out his product. But as has been seen here by many, that often is not the case and a lot of deposits have been lost when the guy goes tits up....... There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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Guy's, First of all, let me state for the record that Terry Wieland is a friend of mine. I state that simply for what it's worth, and so you will know where I'm coming from. I will also state, up-front, that Steve Hughes is a friend of mine. I have no idea what Terry Wieland's methods are; I've never asked him. I would, however, doubt that he's overly busy hustling free work. Besides, even if that were the case, what does it have to do with the article he wrote? For Another AZWriter, I didn't see Terry's piece in Safari Times as my membership in SCI has lapsed, and I've not renewed it. I probably won't. Having said that, I would certainly agree with you -- if Terry submitted similar pieces to two competing publication. Generally, the rule has always been, if the publications are non-competing, all bet's are off. Safari Times is an internal SCI publication. It is not available outside the membership of SCI. Rifle magazine, OTOH, is available most everywhere. The two publications are not competing. No harm, no foul. As to the comment about ISS participation, I get the inference. I read, with jaws clinched, his previous comments on other threads. I will only say that I seriously doubt that ISS knows Terry Wieland, has ever met Terry Wieland, or knows anything about Terry Wieland, first hand. The 350 class bull elk thread comes to mind. Now, to the topic at hand -- anyone that has ever dealt , to ay extent, in the custom gun trade, knows what Terry wrote is true. Obviously, there are exceptions. But, by and large, in my experience anyway, Terry hit the nail squarely on the head. I think that I hold the record for waiting on a custom rifle. I delivered a Springfield barreled action, a nice blank of European walnut, a scope and scope mounts, to a custom maker in about 1965. My instructions were simple, build me a 308 Norma Magnum rifle. It is not 2012, and I still don't have that rifle. Obviously, I have long since written it off to experience. I'm sure that the maker has long since passed. I could cite other examples that have happened to me, first hand, not internet chatter, but I won't. It suffices to say that the custom gun trade, as talented as they are, are their own worst enemies. Ask Jorge and Howard about their experiences with Greg Hein, as but one example. Now, just to be sure that we understand each other, I have just returned, in the past month, from attending the Dallas Safari Club Expo (for the custom Gunmakers exhibiting there), and the combined FEGA/ACGG Exhibition in Reno. My costs for those two shows were around $2000. My custom gun gig at Gun Digest will pay me $500 in return. Am I nut's? The answer to that question is self evident. Would I feel guilty about accepting a "free" job of one sort or the other -- no I would not. Would I solicit such a freebie, no I would not. Would I turn one down, no I would not. The old cliche, never condemn anyone until you have walked a few miles in his shoes comes to mind. I could go on, but, mercifully, I won't . I will only say that there is no greater admirer of the custom rifle, well done, than am I. I simply love the things. I understand where TCI is coming from with his comments about being willinng to wait for the best work. I would agree with him, but I am 73 years old. I cannot wait the time that some of the guys take. All I want is to tell me what it costs, and how long it will take, and then I will have the basis for making a decision. However, those predictions must be pretty accurate. I agree that there are many things that impact the delivery time that the maker cannot control. My experience is that that there are many more reasons for delay that are within the control of the maker. They just don't account for them. Fire away. TT | |||
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Argument?..  , I just asked you to back your statement with examples of top tier "one man shop" smiths that according to you supposedly do all the stock and metal work themselves, on every rifle they are involved in building.[that includes doing everything in a build even when choosing to use outsourced components]You accuse me of being Angry with smiths who choose to use supplied components rather than make their own...? Mr.Kehr, Do you dream this crap up?... no where in my posts does it show that I have issue with smiths that use supplied components. Nor do I have issue with smiths who choose to make their own custom components to put into the rifle they are building. Am I not exactly pleased with smiths who can't hold up their end of the bargain?..[regardless of whether they use outsourced components or make their own, be it receiver,barrel,sights,BM,g-caps,screws etc],....Yes indeed. Ive have had involvement with bolt rifle smiths that used high quality mostly supplied components in the rifles they build, ... and have involvement with smiths that go to the effort to make some of the major & minor components[action,BM, swivel bases] that other smiths are commonly supplied with. Both have given me the run around. and that is very much the subject of this thread. Funny thing is, Ive had rifles that involved much in-house individual custom work and/or modification be completed quicker than rifles that used mostly unmodified outsourced off the shelf custom parts. ...go figure.. 
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Tsquare2, thank you. You just eloquently stated my and, I think, many others feelings on the subject. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Well said, TT. Great to see you in Reno! ACGG Life Member, since 1985 | |||
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Well said Tom. One thing I would like to clarify about my comments in my above posts is they were only in reference to good smiths that are actually building rifles and missing deadlines. Not the ones that take money and never deliver product. There is no defense for those guy's. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Tom, First of all, I have always enjoyed your custom gun stuff. Yes, it does matter if someone gets something for free. It means that maybe, just maybe, the item he is recommending to readers isn't something he would buy himself. It is funny that every writer seems to throw up the protest of “why does it matter?” Maybe it doesn’t matter to some readers, either. But others do care, and you certainly aren’t hurting those who don’t care by being forthcoming. Why do you think the FTC now says anyone endorsing a product outside of normal advertising venues must acknowledge if they are paid or receive product in kind? I am no fan of big gov't, but the purpose of this rule is clear: to not provide disclosure is not truthful. It is also clear this rule is widely ignored by the outdoor media. I am sure you and Terry have bought plenty of gear with your own money. Stating what you did buy is the best product endorsement you can make. Unfortunately, you and I both know that will denigrate the endorsements of "free stuff." It applies to gear, hunts, everything. Duane said Jim pays full price for his work. What an outstanding endorsement for Duane! Surely JC can get a "freebie" if anyone can, even with his retirement status. That he sends his cash to Duane is pretty impressive. I am much more inclined to do business with Duane knowing this. I am building a .338 Edge. I will write two stories about it in the mag I write for most often. Every barrel manufacturer I contacted told me they would give me a free barrel. I told them I would accept a discount, but I didn't want a freebie, as I want some “skin” in the game. I intend to write exactly how this rifle performs. I also told them one of my conditions was I would note in my story the discount. Giving away free product is smart marketing; no doubt. But as an outdoor communicator, it would serve the reader the best if all writers followed the intent of the FTC rule. How hard would it be? | |||
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VERY well said, indeed! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I wonder if the Sistine Chapel would exist if there had been a Schedule of Deliverables!!! When you work with an artist, you have to be flexible (within reason). The other choice is to be their sole supporter til your project is finished.....they have to pay the rent too. The only thing that really matters is the end product and there should be no compromises there. The word gets around about those that abuse their clients...its a small world...and it doesn't appear that anyone here has a problem speaking up | |||
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So then, with all that said, what is a reasonable wait for a custom rifle? IMO, two years is the outside line with all components supplied and payment schedule kept up to date. | |||
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+1 18 months to two years. | |||
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Reasonable wait? Good guess, when I asked the five builders for a quote it ranged up to 2 years. Was ok with any date they gave me but none of them would put their money where their mouth was and accept the penalty clause mentioned before, even after I compromised and offered two extra months. Doubt if my idea of a penalty clause for late delivery is the only answer. But as long as most people accept long overdue projects as the "norm" nothing will ever change. A month or two overdue is nothing to get overly concerned about and is easy to live with. But 1 year? 2 years or more? It is almost like some people enjoy bragging about how long someone is taking to finish their rifle. Like they think the longer it takes the more it is worth  Their is not any "artist" in the world who deserves to have free reign with a customers money and time. Some of you will say I will never find a rifle builder that I want to build me a rifle that would accept a penalty clause. You are most likely correct but I can live with that. Getting to old to play these stupid games anymore. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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So, Snowwolfe, what did you (or will you) end up doing about your prospective build? Apparently no one will guarantee a build within the 2-year time period discussed above, so, what is a person to do? Seriously, no dig intended, only constructive inquiry here. I can understand your frustration, I'm extremely reluctant to send some scopes off for work since Parsons takes SOOOO LOOONNNNGGGG! Bah! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Put my money where my mouth was and didnt contract out the build. Looks like another double in my future for 2013 The reason I am so cautious is I came within a hair of losing my money on a Hein rifle. Listened to Hein telling me excuse after excuse (many months past the deadline he gave me) as to why my rifle could not be completed even though he swore all parts were finished. Never again. Got out of that experience with my deposit returned and will be the first to admit I was damned lucky. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Im not out to rush a gunmaker to get the job completed to high standard. If a reliable high tier smith knows his schedule and gave a figure of say 3 yrs to completion for a full house job, thats acceptable with me. I don't expect jobs like that to be rushed and would rather he tell me 3yrs than an deceptively enticing number like 12-18months, that he knows is unrealistic with his current schedule. Unfortunately some smiths dont know the difference between their ambitions and their actual abilities. | |||
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Guys, We have strayed a bit from the original thread, but not all that far I suppose. AZwriter, thanks for your kind words. I truly appreciate them, particularly coming from a colleague. I understand where you are coming from on the issue of open disclosure, but in the context of this thread, it still doesn't matter of Terry got 100 free rifles. His piece was about a trade, a cottage industry, not about a maker or a particular rifle. In addition, it is critical in nature, not laudatory. I believe it is safe to say that the readers are not going to run right out and order a custom rifle based upon Terry's piece in Rifle. I applaud Dave Scoville, by the way, for running the piece. Most editors these days would not have. I guess it shows the reputation of custom gun guys as big advertising spenders. Not! By the way, I must have done something wrong in my writing career. This is my fortieth year at the keyboard (and typewriter, and even quill pen), and the number of free guns that I've received in all that time wouldn't take up all the fingers on one hand to count. I've bought a bunch at discounted prices, but very few freebies. Also, I'd hate to think that after all these years, my honor, my reputation, my "soul," could be bought for the price of a free rifle. Steal a hundred bucks, and you get jail time. Steal five million, and you get an award! Meeting delivery schedules seems to be one of the biggest complaints, along with a total absence of communications. The fact is that anyone worth his salt should be able to predict a delivery date within a few months leeway. As I mentioned earlier, all I want or expect from a maker is the price, and a delivery schedule. I then have the basis for making a decision. If the cost is outside my budget (and most are), the decision is easy. If the projected delivery time is five years or so, at my age the decision is equally easy. That doesn't seem all that difficult. But to estimate two years, and take five; well, that is disingenuous to be nice, and BS to be honest. As far as paying everything up front, I am reminded of an old country lawyer in my hometown in rural KY. He always said that there are two kinds of bad bill payers, "them that pays too slow, and often even worse, them that pays too fgast." | |||
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Tom: Your stuff has always been way up there in terms of quality; I can't get enough of custom rifle stories and photos, and over the years, you made that your mark, as has Terry. And unlike some on the site, I still subscribe to the "gun rags" - because they are well worth the money. But puhleeze, I am not a colleague; you are a major league player and I am a minor league player. I chose not to pursue writing full time, but I do it when I can because I love it. But most of my stuff is pretty specialized. My complaints are not aimed at being truthful in the sense that free stuff makes you write untruthfully. The single point is that free stuff should be acknowledged as such, because it is easily construed as a product endorsement. If you do elect to buy it, let's hear it. Craig Boddington wrote a few years ago that he saved his combat pay to buy a sheep hunt in Mexico. I am guessing since he spent all that money, he went with who thought was the best - he did a lot of due diligence. On the other hand, if a rifle supplier takes him on a hunt, he gets what he gets...a big difference. I have never received a free gun at all (although I know plenty who have) but like you I get the discounts. I now make it a point to state whether I bought the rifle or sent it back. I just submitted a piece on the Bushnell Fusion and concluded by saying I declined to buy it, for the simple reason I have enough laser rangefinders already. But it was better than the Leica 1200 I have. On the other hand, I reviewed a Browning X Bolt that shot one hole groups at 100 yards. I stated in my article that I did buy that gun. It was accurate and I wanted a an accurate .308. Today I spoke with Kelly McMillan about my .338 Edge stock. Kelly offered to give me a free one in return for writing about his stock. I told him I didn't want that; I would accept a discount, but I wanted some skin in the game. McMillan stocks are the best out there and I don't mind paying for the best (hell, if he gets mad at me for writing this I will just pay full price anyway!). After all, that is what my readers will have to do. By the way, I think TV shows largely avoid this controversy because the sponsors are obvious and acknowledged. Anyway, nothing is truly free, including writing on this thread. Thanks for taking part. | |||
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Paying up front for all the work is bad business for everyone involved. | |||
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Here's a big part of the problem - in many if not most cases. When the customer gets his estimated time for delivery from his gunsmith, the savvy customer needs to multiply it by at least 2.5 to get anywhere close to reality. The problem would be half solved if the gunsmith would do that arithmetic before making his delivery date promise. Don't create expectations - if you know they are doomed to disappointment right from the outset. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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When dealing with certain rifle builders it is indeed unwise to do so, with certain others it does not create any problems...they tend to respect & reciprocate the goodwill you are putting forward to them. | |||
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I'm with Snowwolfe on this one. If you won't commit to your own word or estimate you shouldn't be in business, and probably won't be for very long. If an "artist" needs more time to realize my vision and is actively working on the project, that is one thing. That isn't reality though. The reality is that the smith has a three year waiting list but is still quoting three months for delivery, and won't even begin your work for years and until he has other 'customer's' money. A well known levergun outfit here and Anchorage (Wild ****) quoted me two months on a simple rebarrel job and took 23 months to complete it. They blamed the delay on everything from the end of the Cold War, Bill Clinton, the war in Iraq, etc, even though this was just a few years back and Bill had been out of office for years and I believe the Warsaw Pact disolved around 89-90. The worst part was that they subbed the work out of state, so I couldn't even get my parts back. They claimed to have no control over the situation. When I pointed out that they have total control over their choice of subcontractors, and it was they who took my money and made promises, they seemed confused. When after 20 months I at last demanded my parts back they called the subcontractor, a well known barrel maker in WI named after a rodent, and the owner swore a blue streak on speaker phone about what I could do with my gun and how if they ever called him again their work was going to the back of the line because he was 'busy.' WW's response was, "See, there's nothing we can do." I begged to differ. This attitude towards customers seems more common than not, and needless to say I will NEVER give a single cent of business to either of these firms again. I don't want excuses, I want solutions, trust, and the results I paid for. Contrast that with another well know smith I've dealt with who is upfront about his two year waiting list. You send him your plan, get on the list, and when he's close he calls for you to send your parts and payment, then delivers on time. He manages expectations and meets the deadlines he commits to. I can only assume he plans for the unexpected when giving time quotes and has determined who are reliable suppliers and who aren't. I'm totally fine with that and would use him even if the wait was 5 years because I know what I'm getting and can TRUST him to not screw me or lie to me. If he called me and told me he'd run into a truly unforesable problem, family emergency, etc, I would be totally understanding because I would actually believe that the things he was saying were true vs totally blowing smoke. Bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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