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Should not have thrown Kelly under the bus. You may not think you did but you did----have to learn what to say and when to say it. | |||
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A good business man would not want payment up front. | |||
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What amazes me is the way so many "artist-gunmakers" brag on how far behind they are in their orders, as if the demand for their services is so great that being behind is a great badge of highest honour. Yet they are constantly going places like the Safari-Club show to hustle yet more work they won't do on time either. They don't seem to understand there is no need whatsoever to seek more work if they make good products and deliver on time. Word-of-mouth advertising for the gunmakers who perform that way will keep their platters full forever, good economy or bad times make no matter. And it has been getting worse and worse over the last 30 years IMHO. Not just in the gunmaking trade, but in ALL trades. I have had a lot of custom guns built in my life, some in the U.S., some in Britain. I can tell you, it wasn't nearly so bad in the 50s and 60s, and was only rarely encountered even in the early 70s. Then, all of a sudden apparently some one somewhere flicked a switch sometime in the late 70s which turned off the personal responsibility module in MANY tradesmen, gun-makers included. Ever try to get even the simplest plumbing or cabinetry work done these days? You have to make an appointment, but often the "professional" doesn't even bother to call and let you know he won't be showing up. And if he does, your chances of getting done what you want done by that prima donna seem at best about 50/50. And I know that gun-makers (who aren't ALL undependable, thank God) don't like to be compared to plumbers or cabinet-makers. Well, it IS an unfair comparison. Plumbers and cabinetmakers perform essential services. Anyway, there are many reasons the countries of the world are in deep dodo economically these days, and unreliable custom gunmakers are just a symptom of the root of the problem. And I believe that root is lack of honour, lack of truthfulness, lack of having a word as good as gold. To the extent that is now accepted as a norm, all countries are in trouble, and so are all of us. We can't be a world of "victims" and thus not personally responsible for whether our word is reliable or not and still expect to have a decent society. If EVERY individual kept his own word and thereby exerted pressure on his own group of peers to do the same, things would improve greatly. | |||
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The guy who punches out this kind of work is in STARK contrast to how some much higher profile-lmuch ess reliable rifle builders regularly operate,.. He does not belong to any guild, - has no website,- does not go to any shows to peddle his wares,- does not frequent any shooting/hunting forums. Despite this;- he has a waiting list of several years,-a build time of up to 3yrs, -will not accept orders in the meantime - and delivers on time! His work is about equal to anything you would see come out of the Echols shop, which aint no faint praise! G33/40- custom tang safety & Echols BM.     The first high grade M98 I ever had built ,..was done by him: | |||
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Trax, On this subject you and I think much alike, I suspect. I think he does his advertising and has all those orders because he spends his time in the best possible way. At his bench doing the work he contracted to do, with skill and integrity. | |||
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Making fine custom rifles isn't all that hard, making a decent living at it is. No one works their hardest when they are feeling under appreciated and underpaid, as many gunmakers are, or feel themselves to be. Add that to the solitary conditions(real or imagined) that many toil under, it's not hard to imagine a few sliding into an almost passive aggressive state in regard to delivery dates. While all that doesn't make maltreatment of clients acceptable, it is a tough row to hoe. $0.02 | |||
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Beautiful rifle Trax, who built it for you? I especially like those scope bases. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Like the Madam said to the Bishop, "You pays your money and you takes your choice!" BUT, also like the Bishop, you oughta ask around before jumping into something that looks good on the outside but may be rotten within. A famous automobile commercial used to urge the customer to "Ask the man who owns one!" Good advice in many cases. Why are these unscrupulous scammers and incompetent 'businessmen' still in business? Because somehow the rest of us have been brainwashed into thinking that we shouldn't name names and point fingers. How many unsuspecting clients have been victimized over the years simply because the rest of us didn't wanta hurt somebody's feelings? Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Packard, which maybe proves that sage advice is seldom heeded. and I the only one who doesn't know who fashioned Trax's rifle? | |||
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Because posting a negative review here of any product produced by a popular company will usually reap insult after insult of the person offering the review. I can understand a person being reluntant to post such a review after my experience with my rifle built by a well known double rifle manufacturer. But I'll always answer a persons questions for info if I own the product in question, good or bad. Just because a person owns some great examples of "X" product, doesnt mean that "X" might produce a lemon. Accurate reviews of any custom rifle should be reported including the promised delivery and the actual delivery time. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I don't know who made it, and I don't KNOW that it belongs to Trax. He's rather notorious on this forum for not giving any verifiable details about his own skills or possessions. It's a heckuva nice-looking rifle though! Only things I'd change would be the angle of the butt checkering lines 'cause the diamonds are more square-looking than I like, and the pedestal sling bases date it to the era of the double-knit leisure suit (grin). Otherwise typical very well-done plains-type rifle, would be a graceful & beautiful addition to anyone's gun safe! Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I too will answer any questions about any of my dealings with anyone. When I first joined this site, I was repeatedly and obnoxiously insulted because I made a comment about a smith's own description of his own work. Folks called me everything but A Child of God simply because I reported the truth as I saw it. Time and further experience have apparently shown most of them that they were mistaken. The rest of them don't have any opinion worth our worrying about, they depend upon their heroes to tell them what to think (grin). It's mighty easy to insult your enemy instead of actually having to really THINK about your own opinion and position. Long-range cyber insults are both immature & cowardly and indicate insecurity on the part of the insulter; if a person can't think of a logical counter-argument, then maybe they should just listen. I told My Bride that on the day I start worrying about some cyber insulter's opinion of my opinion, I want her to shoot me in the back of the head 'cause I would have gone insane and might be a danger to others (grin). Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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"If I'm serious about getting one built by that maker, I make it a point to investigate his reputation for punctual delivery." Quoted from page one. If I can spend a fortune and wait a very long time for a custom piece, I can also do at least a simple background check. The internet is full of info, both good and bad about every aspect of custom gunmakers, and reading ain't tough. Cream rises. Anybody worth the trust will pop up glowingly, and those with issues will pop up to their chagrin. | |||
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Joe. It's because we all have allowed it to become SOP. Custom gun buyers are kinda like resident surgeons, they take a little in the ass because that's just how it's done because that is how it has been done.... Every now and then when an asshole like me points it out we all get defensive (noticed I included myself in the group), circle the wagons and do the old ad hominum defense. (Ok I know I like to take some theatrical liberty for shits & grins [and I keep on finding out further irregularities on my "guild" rifles- I know now I was indeed overzealous in my disparaging the guild, but if y'all took a look at them they aren't guild quality at all, so for that a continued apology about the generalization) But again, the real issue is understanding the reality of the business. That burden falls on both the maker and the customer. Again, nothing wrong in using the next or third guy's money to build rifle x....as long as it gets built. And yes for even the most experienced builder shit does happen. Esp. when someone goes to a certain builder to build something out of the ordinary because he can do it. Hell I get paid 4-6+ months and up to a year after I've provided my service. The bottom line is who cares how or when a project is completed as long as the builder: 1. is honest and up front with the time frame 2. immediately communicate any unforseen problems that come up (you'd be surprised at what a customer will respond with upfront communication, even if something came up I myself have willingly incurred told the builder/other prfessionals "fine, tell me how much more, put it on the ticket and do it." Goes a long way- better than to have corners cut, and 3. keeps an open line of communication. The customer must accept certain responsibilities: 1. treat the builder as he would want to be treated 2. not be a PITFA.....pestering only gets you knocked down the list 3. special orders are just that special expect the unexpected and 4. be just as realistic in your time frame (FYI s in all business some customers have more cart blanche than others....accept that. some people get their Ferraris in months others stay on the list for years) Sorry for the tangents and spelling had surgery this am..........fk that was long, thanks hydrocodone There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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There was nothing but glowing praise to be found about Empire when I placed my order in 2006. Mr Weiland went so far as to put an Empire on the cover of his book and reap praise about George Sandmann in print in the book. Now, in Rifle magazine, Mr Weiland says Empire's business model was doomed from the start. Why didn't he say that before? What is the story on the AR member who now owns the Empire rifle built for Mr Weiland? Did he order it and not pay for it-forcing Sandmann to find a buyer? Did he get a deal and sell it for profit? Did he order it, pay full price, and decide he didn't need it? Did he order it before or after I ordered mine? (by "he" I mean Mr Weiland not the AR member who now owns it) They can all burn in hell as far as I'm concerned. Go Navy | |||
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Creating/submitting a sample rifle thats meets the minimum criteria [for purpose of entry into ACGG] is one thing, whether they bother to continue adhere to such standards afterward is an entirely different matter. I would not get ecstatic about a smith just b-cause he trumpets that he is ACGG . I suppose an up and coming smith could utilise the guild to increase his exposure somewhat, but if he is truly worth his salt, he can achieve the success & reputation he rightfully deserves- without ACGG next to his name.
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I have read Terry's books and magazine articles for years and I have enjoyed thoroughly all of it. He is in a league of his own and a very gifted writer. I have not enjoyed such writing since the late Bob Milek. No offense to other writers. I do not know the man personally so I can only judge him by his writing work and he is first rate. I have read the article and he is free to state his mind, this is the U.S. of A. after all and he is not shoving the paper down our throat or twisting our arm to read it. If he puts some fire under certain gunsmiths ---, then may the force be with him. We all are different and have different expectations on products or services rendered if you are happy with it great otherwise find someone else and don't waste time complaining. Life is short and we need to get most out of our life. If we are prudent and lucky enouph to find the right gunsmith who does not have to be the most popular then consider yourself blessed. If some one advises me about certain aspect of someones work, I thank him and make my own decision. We all have been burned by some one. The internet is great it can expose some one for who they are pretty freely, as long it's based on facts and not personal predjudice. We are lucky in the states we have some of the best gunsmiths in the world period. Educate yourself , choose wisely and get on with it. Time does not stop. I agree with some over terrry's comments on custom gunsmiths such as Rigby and Butch Searcy as out of line. A personal bias should be kept between his ears and not to the whole world where it only shows him in bad light. | |||
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On just about any thread that has "custom gunmakers" mentioned there are the same idiots who turn it into ACGG beating. Never fails.  | |||
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Dead on accurate. I The bottom line is do your research: 1. on what you want to build 2. your builder 3. references 4. be patient I didn't do #1-3. A hard lesson to learn and admit that even though you are the customer....who is supposed to be always right...there are certain responsibilites you do take on willingly and some perhaps unknowingly when going the full blown custom route. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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Bashing the Guild is wrong, just like bashing labor unions is wrong. We need to bash the INDIVIDUALS responsible for the wrong things that are happening. Individuals like the unscrupulous smiths who take all the money up front and then don't deliver, and also individuals like the ignorant and enabling clients who pay it all up front. In business it's SOP to pay for any service either in increments as the work is being done, or else all at once AFTER THE WORK IS COMPLETED! If you don't do the work, then you don't get paid. Simple and easy to understand. Anything else is a Ponzi scam, pure and simple. If you pay up front then guess what? Expect to wait until the smith doesn't have any 'unpaid yet' work backed up, then maybe he'll work on yours... IMO a reasonable procedure is for the client to pay AT THE MOST a small but significant sum up front, along with the rifle's components or the funds for the smith to purchase them. Then, at periodic intervals during the construction, the smith makes a report on progress and the client pays for the work so-far accomplished but leaves a very significant sum to be paid upon satisfactory final completion. That's the way I've always worked and that's the way that all the smiths around here work. Just like building a house, the builder gets periodic payments based upon work already completed satisfactorily. Like I said above, IMO anything else is a scam perpetrated upon the ignorant. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I've read the article in question and agree with much of it. Where I disagree is in the death of the custom gun market. There are more custom guns being built now than when Jack O'Conner wrote his first article about Al Beison. There are several types of "custom" gunsmiths. Those that build, essentially, the same gun over and over tend to be more "on time" than those that build the "one off" guns. How does a guy build something "on time" that he has never done before. I'm just happy that he can do what I asked of him in a reasonable time. Usually it's not the time it takes to do the work. It is the time he takes to get through everyone else's work to do my job. I wish some of the demand for this work would slow down. That way I could get my guns done sooner. TRAX, Are you hiding the identity of this gunsmith so that the rest of us won't jump in and increase his back log, thereby, making him miss a few deadlines? | |||
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Now that Tommyhawk guy really does have an axe to grind! ACGG Life Member, since 1985 | |||
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I read most of the three pages, and know no one involved, but have some overly simple insights. I'm a contractor of sorts, so there's a few things I've learned about contracting to do a job. 1) I don't want to ask for too much money up front. That keeps me honest, "hungry" enough to want to complete the job efficiently and on time. 2)Where I live and in my industry, it's actually illegal to use one persons money to complete anothers project. I can't believe anybody thinks that's OK. That's RIPE for abuse. 3) In my trade, the least efficient way to complete a job is to skip around. The most efficient use of time is to focus all resources on the task until complete. I'm pretty sure gunsmithing is different in some regards, but the overriding principle should apply. 4) There are different types of "contractors". I call them "workers" and "talkers". It took up to the third page before anyone hit on this principle of "The reason he's busy is because he's at the bench producing the work", thereby creating demand for his work by his work. As opposed to-"The reason he's busy is because he's a good salesman", meaning he created the demand by his salesmanship, not workmanship, or integrity in business dealings. Salesman promise, workers deliver. Choose a "worker" when contracting. 5) Dishonesty is just that, and there's no arguing what it is or isn't. Same with bad communication. The question is, what are you willing to tolerate? Me, not much. Life's precious. In closing, have you considered that perhaps your priorities are skewed if you believe that you simply MUST have that next custom rifle at the expense of having to deal with someone (or an industry by the sounds of it) that lacks integrity to the point I'm reading about here? Reel in the striving and find an alternative to the custom rifle, or an alternate to your insatiable appetite, and curb the demand that adds to the problem, and bring some peace and sanity back into your own life. | |||
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Well,this thread re-enforces what my own(and Howard's) horrible experiences with that scumbag, thief, POS Waffenfabrik Hein about custom guns (other than from big names like Holland, Heym, Verney Carron, etc) and that is NEVER AGAIN unless I can walk out of the shop with it in my hands. My own experiences notwithstanding(and I've contacted a couple of other "names"with no-chalant delivery dates and OUTRAGEOUS prices), "Best Business Practices" does not appear to be in their lexicon. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Thank you very much for this post. I was once a Director for a group of companies, one of which competed head-to-head with Bechtel in the world of heavy construction. We could only stay in business by practicing the business ethics you have laid out in your post. It would do EVERY BUSINESS and every businessman a world of good to follow them, IMHO. Successful business is predicated on good relationships with happy customers. It is the businessman's first, last, and primary job to solve problems for his customers, not to cause them with lame excuses for non-performance. I wish you would run for President. You'd have my vote! | |||
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Sounds like B&R or similar. You musta been one of my competition, my second (first long-term) heavy construction job was with Bechtel. Sometimes I wish I was still with 'em, those were good days. Probably 'cause I wuz young.... Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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This is the type of thing that has destroyed Wielands credibility in recent years... He did the same thing with Califonia Rigby's - praised them in his first book, and slams them in the 2nd edition. (I have both editions and it is a total 180 reversal from the first to second edition.) So however right he may actually be on a given issue, his opinions are viewed by some as very tainted by his past flip flopping behavior. Luckily for him, the vast majority of his audience has no idea that he has been known to praise one year and denounce the next, depending on circumstances. | |||
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Behtel is a good company....... Some of their out of the US operations....not so much.... | |||
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You chose to go with a mostly unproven up-start in the industry and got burnt [like i have done in the past]...however there remains a number of reputable [individual or team] builders who are most unlikely to let the customer down, infact, a good part of their reputation is built on seeing that the customer is treated correctly. They are the ones most likely to tell you 36 months but deliver in less,...where as with the scammers,you are most likely to hear 12 months with no end in sight at 36 months.... One can continue to go around kissing frogs in false hope,..or just pay the money to the people you know are well proven at satisfying the fair & reasonably minded customer. The fact that WFH and Empire are gone, is a good thing! Support the strong and allow the weak to die as nature intended...all to the benefit of the custom gunmaker gene pool,..  http://www.africahunting.com/f...3-empire-rifles.html "I wanted to get a feeling out there for Empire. Great advertising and endorsements right. After purchasing a rifle 3 years ago at SCI Reno, I have had nothing but a battle with Empire owner George Sandmann, a snake oil salesman to say the least. The failure of the rifle could be witnessed on Tracks Across Africa where I was hunting lion on a show called "Search for Shumba". After the first shot, I cycled the bolt and the case ejected but did not load another round. You can hear on the video "click" as I take my second shot. It turned out my expensive made to order custom rifle in 375 H&H had a feeding problem when I got home. Well after having the rifle and "fixing it", the rifle again failed me on an elephant hunt in Zim last year. I have at least a hundred emails of correspondence with George Sandmann of Empire and he told me he would purchase the rifle back from me and then today rescinded the offer. What he was paying me was about 30% less than I payed for the defective rifle. He offered to fix it again, but would you trust someone who has failed to build or fix the rifle properly twice to fix it a third time? This is after it was personally tested and signed off by George Sandmann and guaranteed to be fixed. I figure I have 7 lives left after hunting lion, elephant and buffalo with a rifle that is defective. As I have done some investigation Empire does not have rifle makers on staff(they recently added one supposedly), subs out a lot of their work and pieces together their rifles. These gunsmiths that were working on the rifles will not work for him anymore because he owes them large sums of money for work completed. I have had a very reputable gunsmith go through the rifle and there is still major problems with the rifle. He has some great testimonials on the website, but it is a shame when you spend $10,000 on a rifle and it doesn't even work properly(especially when hunting dangerous game). I was at SCI and I witnessed George being chewed out by several clients with his failure to deliver rifles in a time frame promised. I am going to try to post the video for everyone to see the lion get shot and then the second shot failing to load. I can go on and on, but why bother. I am going to take Empire to the SCI ethics committee for fraud and I am in the process of putting together a report for the hunting report. Just want to spread the word and make sure no one else is taken advantage of." | |||
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Fair enough and I think Jorge and I both agree. I also agree with Jorge, in the future I will pay you when I can carry my product out the door. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Trax: I have no issue with your basic premise, but I'll stick to my strategy from now on. A good friend of mine who also posts here, waited almost FOUR years for a top-shelf gunmaker to deliver his rifle. And while I'm at it, I'll throw a plug in for Kebco and Vrney Carron. Ken said six months, and six months-to the day- I received my perfectly fitted, everything I asked for and exceeded my expectations double rifle. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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I don't understand why a builder would not agree to a late penalty clause after they are free to give you any date they want to complete the rifle. For petes sakes, have them give you the date, add 6 months, then add the penalty clause. Obviously this does not apply to guys you have accomplished business with in the past or who come highly recommended with references. Otherwise this entire industry is doomed to attrack cheats and liars in the future. Kind of nice they can demand nice deposits and then put you off for years with no accounting for anything. But the worst part are the people who continue to put money down and adding fuel to the fire. For gods sakes people, hold these custom builders accountable. If not with a late penalty clause, then something else. Found it even more alarming that of the five I contacted for a custom build not one would give a guarantee (by paying shipping both ways) if the rifle failed to correctly feed dummy rounds supplied to them. If that doesnt scream run, I don't know what does. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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The best builders I am aware of do try to meet deadlines but unless they have a stockpile of actions, wood and barrels they are at the mercy of other suppliers. Jerry Fisher is one builder I know that takes no money up front - just your specs and when he gets around to completing your rifle he calls for you to send $$. If not he usually has someone else waiting. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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How about some names? Why is it that no-one wants to make any recommendations for a reliable gunsmith? I'm with Jorge. Until something changes in the industry, I am going to stick with dead gunsmiths for my custom rifles. Their delivery is usually faster, and they respond to e-mails in about the same time. And it has been my experience that the quality is usually better. They do not steal your deposit either. I am in a slightly different part of the firearms industry, but when I tell someone a delivery date, it is with the intent to deliver on that date or sooner and actually based on the work load that we have in the shop, not whatever lie I think I have to tell them to get the job. I also spend 10 hours in the shop every day working. I think to many gunsmiths get into the industry because they think it would be cool to go hunting and fishing every day and build a rifle every now and then. We even had one well known smith on another web site the other day brag about how he does not worry to much about delivery schedules. Heck of a way to run a business. Rant off. John | |||
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Like you say...how about names? | |||
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[/QUOTE] How about some names? Why is it that no-one wants to make any recommendations for a reliable gunsmith? I'm with Jorge. Until something changes in the industry, I am going to stick with dead gunsmiths for my custom rifles. Their delivery is usually faster, and they respond to e-mails in about the same time. And it has been my experience that the quality is usually better. They do not steal your deposit either. I am in a slightly different part of the firearms industry, but when I tell someone a delivery date, it is with the intent to deliver on that date or sooner and actually based on the work load that we have in the shop, not whatever lie I think I have to tell them to get the job. I also spend 10 hours in the shop every day working. I think to many gunsmiths get into the industry because they think it would be cool to go hunting and fishing every day and build a rifle every now and then. We even had one well known smith on another web site the other day brag about how he does not worry to much about delivery schedules. Heck of a way to run a business. Rant off. John[/QUOTE] Like you say...how about names?[/QUOTE] First, you seem to be one of the rare exceptions Mr Weibe, and I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and what you do. Not sure if you are you asking for names of the gunsmiths I have had bad experiences with, or the names of the deceased gunsmiths that I have recently had positive experiences with, or my name? The first two I will be glad to share in private e-mails if anyone is interested. The last, John Holliger. I run a business building semi-custom barrels and accessories for AR-15 type rifles known as White Oak Armament. A quick web search will get you more info than you want to know about me. John | |||
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IF four years is the time estimate he was given and accepted, then I don't see the issue. IF one ordered with MartiniGunmakers or Echols&Co. today and they happen to indicate approx. 3yrs to delivery [much less if you opt for a Legend], I should have no grounds for complaint when they deliver near to that schedule. IF one cannot handle the time frames certain smiths give [and reliably adhere to], then by all means take your chances with someone else who may deliver what you want,earlier..or not at all. There are several smiths you can trust to exhibit due diligence in their rifle builds, but due to the sheer nature of their work & work schedule, it still requires patience on the customers part. .. and as Phil/.458win said, they[trusted smiths] can sometimes have genuine delays due to some reliance on outside suppliers for certain components or services....But they are most unlikely to deceive you with BS yarns as to why certain things have not progressed on your rifle. Just imagine those customers/smiths who had to wait for Blackburn BM to arrive....thankfully there are other options for those not hellbent on using a BB product. However if one feels more comfortable with "only paying for a rifle when you can carry it out the door" thats your perogative, but I feel its based somewhat on paranoia. Paranoia[def].. exaggerated distrust of others, sometimes reaching delusional proportions, excessive suspicion of the motives of others,extreme and irrational fear or distrust of others, preoccupied with unsupported doubts. | |||
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Wieland's sins, at least as far as I can tell, have been the rendering into print of poorly thought out opinions, and all too ready, and all too readily frothy and unqualified, product recommendations. Based, of course, on swaps or freebies, or promises thereof, and not on the kind of hard won and pitiful reality that the rest of us not-so-fashionable non-scribblers face all day, and every day, of our lives. Objectivity only comes from being treated poorly, as often as not, or in other words, like a regular guy on a regular basis. Wieland has shown, however, that sometimes, and then only on a belated basis, after he has come to realize that somehow, unimaginably and foolishly, he, himself, has been taken in - and deeply and personally wronged (and even then his awakening seems to come only on a strictly unapologetic basis - and also in an amazingly and woefully flipped and flopped manner) - that even and only then, in such awful personal circumstances, that even and only then, he can reform his previous and hasty recommendations, and condemn that which he has previously exalted. But still, one can tell, even from such navel-speculating and un-altruistic instances, that his eyes are now slowly opening from their previoulsy narrowed and self-focused slits. And I must say again that Wieland is right here, in this particular instance, in offering such sage advice to the unwashed - albeit and notwithstanding that such advice is based solely on his deliciously and personally hard won and costly experience - that one ought to be careful with respect to those with whom one might deal on any important commercial basis for personal services. Again, lest anyone mistake my intentions, let me emphasize that Wieland is to be commended for sharing his wonderful and personal pain with those of us laboring in the trenches. As they say, some (but not all) NRA members are ACLU members who've been mugged.  And the most fervent reformist Brahmins know (if only from cases of mis-identity) what it's like to be an untouchable. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Seems like the old "Pump and Dump" game is still around... | |||
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Nobody has complained about that. The only complaints have been that promised delivery dates have not been kept, repeatedly, not only by a few individual smiths but by so many that it really is not only expected but accepted and tolerated behavior by the custom gun industry at large. The proof is the length of this thread and it being kept alive by so many stating that "this type of work takes time", "you should just be patient" etc. It's unfortunate really and as a advocate of the custom gun industry it saddens me because I know that many many out there are like Jorge. People who have money to spend and are willing to spend it on fine firearms but the performance, attitude and mindset of the people in the industry is such that they, potential customers, take their money elsewhere. On the other topic on this thread. LOL! I don't understand the bashing of Terry Wieland. I wonder how the rest of us would stack up if everything we ever said or wrote was put under a microscope for review by every casual observer? Not so well I am thinking. One of the funniest lines I have ever read was written by a prolific and respected outdoor writer in a piece on his ideal rifle for every hunting situation. One of his "situations" for which he proceeded to build the ideal rifle was "long shots in heavy timber"! Say what? How can you have a long shot in heavy timber? Is he an idiot because he said that? Or perhaps its just the requirement to put out x number of words per month to make a living? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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