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Terry Wieland's article on custom rifle makers in the latest RIFLE magazine (page 82)raises some interesting points. He's critical of makers who regard themselves as "artists" who abuse customers by not adhering to delivery times or delivering defective rifles. He criticizes makers who are indignant that anyone would want to take thier rifles out and actually shoot them. He concludes that the economic downturn in recent years has really hurt the market for custom rifles, that customers are frustrated with gunmakers and many have lost interest. He says gunmakers should regard their customers as essential parts of their business, not merely a nuisance. | ||
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That should be on a sign hanging over EVERY gunsmiths work bench. End of story.  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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I basically agree with some of those principals, but coming from a guy that hustles free gun work at every opportunity, no wonder he is treated that way... ACGG Life Member, since 1985 | |||
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Good point. I will have to read the article but I think I will agree with the "artist" implication. Maybe most of the artistry is convincing the customer that you are an artist... | |||
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Hehe...spot on! Roger Kehr Kehr Engraving Company (360)456-0831 | |||
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My work ethic: Meet all delivery promises. Make NO delivery promises. Positively ensure proper function and safety. Get all instructions in writing if possible. Follow owner's instructions as far as possible. Inform owner if unable to follow instructions. Refuse to do anything that brings discomfort. If a client wants something that offends my artistic sense then I respectfully tell him to take it somewhere else. If it doesn't work properly then I fix it. I don't know the gentleman in question but if he solicits free gun work then he deserves what he gets. Ditto if he can't give clear, concise and definitively detailed instructions on what's wanted. Like My Bride sometimes says to one of Her girl friends, "Just put on your big-girl panties and quit whining!" Or maybe that month he couldn't think of anything else to write about......guess he mighta already used up the old tried-&-true '308 vs 30-06, Which Is Better?' and 'The 30-30: Who Needs It?' chestnuts (grin). Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Letter to Terry: Well Terry, I am tired of reading the same stuff in more than two different pubs. You had essentially the same message in a recent issue of Safari Times. It used to be writing the same story for two different pubs was a good way to get blackballed. But then again, so was taking cash to act as a "consultant" or spokesperson. As for asking for free stuff, I thought there wasn't a writer alive who would ask for something for free, be it guns, hunts, or gear. I love how the internet exposes this stuff. | |||
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He must have recently had a bad experience. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I have read some of Terry's books and many of articles. I agree with a lot of what he has to say but every so often he seems to get upset/agitated/panties in a wad over the way other people run their businesses. He was all over the California Rigby mess and now he is somewhat critical of custom gun makers. In short, custom gun makers deal with a very exclusive and rich client base. If you can afford guns starting at $10,000 going to $100,000 when something that does the same thing costs $1000 to $1500 then you have to be prepared for an "artist" that may or may not be customer service oriented. I have been down the custom gun path. I found guys that are service/quality oriented and others that are quality/cost be forgotten oriented. I found that if you a clear up front, do not change the gun, make payments on time, then you get your gun on time. If you harass the guy, demand pictures every week, make changes and do not want to pay for them - expect a late delivery. Terry has been all over the place on gun issues from touting the latest and greatest to dissing whoever. I took his ariticle as him having a bad day and having to write something to meet a deadline. Not much different from Craig Boddington's recent articles extolling the virtues of Minox binos and scopes. Since when does the most noted guy out there tout 2nd or 3rd tier equipment when he can afford better and uses better stuff. | |||
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Seems to me like they are a couple of punks. I'm pretty sure about the redheaded one 'cause I've read his stuff, but have not yet read the other one. Or at least if I have read the other one's stuff then his writing wasn't very impressive 'cause I don't remember it. If a guy wants to write enjoyably then IMO he needs more than a lotta egotistical photos of himself with dead animals. JMOFWIW. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I don't know Wieland so can't comment on his business arrangements. But I do agree with much of what he says on delivery promises vs physical delivery. I would not often hear from gunmakers unless I initiated the communication. There are exceptions, one of which would regularly (quarterly) send digital pictures of work in progress. He couldn't adhere to his original schedule, but he let me know, which went a long way to making me feel better about buying rifles from him. Many, including a couple universally known shops, didn't take any time to run what I'd call the marketing/administrative side of their business, which made me a one time buyer. | |||
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Nothing is ever truly free. When he writes about a maker who did work for him, a few thousand guys learn about that maker when they would never ordinarily hear of him. Some place orders. Why do Winchester, Ruger, Leupold, etc. send writers on "free" hunts every year? It's a trade for "free" advertising when the magazine articles appear. | |||
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Wieland's point, exactly. | |||
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A number of years ago I had a multiple email exchange with Terry over a Spanish sidelock 20 bore I was considering buying but could find no information on. He advised me very well on all I needed to know to make a decision. He was great. That written, any more I can not stand reading the guys stuff. Pompous comes to mind. | |||
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I wuz tryin' to be sarcastic......I meant exactly what I said. I make NO delivery promises, just feel lucky to be able to do things that way. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Oh absolutely it does.........if it's on the internet its exposed and the truth!!!  Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I have had opportunity to spend time around custom gun makers and they all seem to be good people and enjoyable to be around, and no question top notch craftsmen. They all also seem to see the customer as in impediment to their work rather than what makes their work possible. This is reflected in poor communication, un-kept promises regarding delivery dates and flat our delivery of product that isn't what you requested. I don't buy into this artistry talk either. Much of custom work is repetitious and monotonous and takes a strong work ethic to knock out. Artistry = Manana!!! Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I don't follow gun writers and only rarely, casually read a magazine but he's correct. Of course not all makers, likely a small percentage but perhaps much higher than other trades/arts. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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Finally read the article in question and thought it was spot on, reguardless of what prompted him to write it. On my first visit to the SCI convention this month I approached 5 different custom gun makers about a left handed bolt rifle I had in mind. All builders were very receptive to my ideas and choices and said it was easy to build. Each builder promised it would be built by a specific month although each quoted different times, which was ok. When it was time to give a deposit told all of them I wanted a clause put in the contract saying the rifle price would be reduced by $300 a month for each month it was over due. Also mentioned if the rifle did not feed correctly they would have to cover the shipping both ways till they fixed it. None of the 5 would agree so no checks were written. Thats life, no hard feelings but I'll never go blind into a custom build again. I just dont see how these guys stay in business when they can't abide by simple business practices. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Howard: I get your jab. My point was 20 years ago a writer could bug every custom rifle builder for free work/free guns but never mention the free stuff in his stories. Well, today you at least risk a response from those whom you solicited. | |||
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Sounds like they were all punks, every single one. Obviously they all were convinced that they COULD NOT fulfill their end of the bargain, otherwise why wouldn't any of them agree to the conditions? Sounds like somewhat of an intentional and customary scam to me. My own response mighta been something like, "Sure, if you'll agree to pay me an extra $300/month for early delivery and another extra $300 for each Change Order or other interuption!" All roads run both ways..... Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Wait a minute. A Terry Wieland thread and NOTHING so far from ISS? Please post, Rich. We are all concerned about you. | |||
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HA! Good one. It's funny how some want to "control" everything. The only thing they seem to lack is the talent to build it. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Point taken only it's not really free stuff, its exposure and guaranteed favorable exposure which is more effective then any traditional advertising you can buy. I guess I have always understood that is how the "game" is played so to me there is no exposure. Cheers. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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JD & Terry, why would I pay extra for early delivery? I am hiring work done and expect it done by a certain pre-agreed upon time. A penalty for failure to deliver is standard in many contracted business relationships where a timeline is part of the contract. The vendor can request a bonus for early payment but please keep in mind, the customer is harmed by late delivery but very possibly gets no benefit by early delivery. The benefit to the vendor for early delivery is early payment in full. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I doubt if I will ever have a custom build, but I did have Jim Kobe put together Jeffe's .470 AccRel on a Ruger. Never occurred to me to ask for delivery time penalties. Beautiful job, delivered in the expected time frame. | |||
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Howard, It's about the negotiation of the contract and I thought it was a pretty clever and funny way to counter his proposition of a late fee. I wouldn't agree to any of those terms as a client or a gunsmith and it sounds like neither did. I wouldn't want to have a $300 note hanging over my head either after signing a contract with an overbearing client. It sounds like nothing more than a reciepe for disaster. The gunsmiths involved obviously felt the same way. Under those terms nothing could be changed without a complete renegotiation. We might as well get lawyers involed before the the building begins  . If I was barrel plumbing Remington 700 actions into plastic stocks it probably wouldn't be a problem but If I built more labor intense custom guns and had a line of paying customers in front of him there is no way I would sign a contract on those terms and the smith's he talked with obviously didn't. I've had guns be years late and it sucks. I've also had guns half-ass done to make a deadline and that sucks even worse! You'll soon forget about how long it took to get it but a screwed up finish never goes away. I'm not for a minuite making excusses for late work by any gunsmith. All I'm saying is I wouldn't sign a contract like that under ANY condition and would go find another source of income if that's what it took to book clients. These smith's reputations are built on the finished products they produce, not the schedules they keep. and yes, I hate waiting too. It sucks. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I get your comment about a properly finished product delivered late being better then a poor product finished timely..........goes hand in hand with the line about the satisfaction of a quality product outlasting the pain and paying more............words to the effect. I however disagree with your above comment...........smith's don't live and work in a vacuum and their ability to deliver as promised is integral to their reputation. I have been around this custom makers area for several years now and in my conversations with those commissioning work done an overwhelming number of them speak of the frustrations with deliveries, poor or non-existent communication and failure to delver what was agreed upon. I want to point out that in Snowwolf's example all he did was ask them to commit to THEIR agreed upon delivery dates. Sorry but then backing off on that means your word is no good. I would hardly call that overbearing. My opinion. Heck you wouldn't accept that kind of performance from the guy who mows your yard, why would you accept it from someone whom you are entrusting with thousands of dollars worth of work? Why is it so tough to do what you say you will do when you say you will do it? Why do so many feel the need to come to the defense of those who repeatedly don't keep their word? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I think for many of us, I certainly am one, a large part of the joy of a custom project is the fun, excitement and thrill of planning, discussing etc and the anticipation of waiting for the project to be finished. You can't wait until you hold that completed dream in your hands for the first time. The parts leading up to the final delivery are a HUGE part of the whole project for me. As deadlines come and go a little more of that part of the project is gone forever. Guess my point is that missed deadlines screws up a part of the project that can never be recovered. To hear and see how so many smith's casually dismiss customer concerns really irritates me and many others. People who could be customers yet choose to go other routes because of those attitudes and the, at least, perceived lack of respect show towards potential customers. The overwhelmingly poor attendance at the most recent Guild show could be a reflection of the public's reaction to that.  Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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You're getting a little off subject here but to the discussion about delivery times, how many times have you looked at a beautiful rifle and wondered if it was delivered on time or if the client got a phone call every month? I never have.
I couldn't agree with that at all. There are way too many variables to doing custom guns that if a rifle builder can't meet his completion date he becomes a liar. There are parts avalibility issues, changes to the rifle, changes the clients rifle that was before you. Most of these things are out of the builders control to hold him to the standards you suggest. Overbearing? Yes, Snowwolf can be.
Because the guy that mows my yard doesn't build my rifles. If he screws up my yard by next week it'll be mowed again. If my builder screws up my rifle it's screwed up for life. If he needs a little extra time to finish it to his satisfaction and not my vaine notion of a schedule I'm fine with that. I've been a customer long enough to know that "good" is better than "fast" for me.
For me it may be because I've done a little bit of this stuff myself on a very amature level and know that's it's much easier to talk about it than do it. Maybe it's because there is a certain level of imagination and creativaty that goes into these things and that alone takes a little more time than mowing my yard or building Big Macs. It maybe because I'm more willing to give a working man a little extra time to finish a job to his satisfaction than rush him and call him a liar or charge him $300 a month for not finishing when he said he would. Maybe it's because I would rather have my work done good than fast. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Terry I don't disagree, each situation is different and certainly one size doesn't fit all. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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It really doesn't matter what he writes. That is his job, to produce copy. That is how he earns his income. If you don't agree then you don't have to. He is just putting 'a' version out there. Just like the internet. I've had two custom working rifles built by a gunsmith I trusted and whoes work I loved. No wait was too much and I paid the cost of components up front and cash on completion. That put me ahead of those who had paid nothing  If the 'issues' raised here with custom guns worried me I would have bought off the shelf and then modified. | |||
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What Terry said, and PLENTY OF IT! If you equate building your custom rifle to mowing your lawn, then you deserve whatever bad result you get. The custom smith is AN ARTIST, regardless of whether you know it or not and regardless of whether he would claim the title or not. Actually many folks might call him a craftsman but I'd go further with most truly custom smiths, they are truly artists. As opposed to rifle-assemblers. Writers who will hurryup-write anything for money (hint, nudge, grin) are called hacks and so are smiths who do things the same way. If the next task is complicated or intricately-shaped, and I don't feel right about it at that particular time, then it gets delayed until I DO feel right about it. That's why I don't give schedules. BTW many many contracts have clauses specifying penalties and rewards, on both sides, for both early and late deliveries. I speak mainly for the nuclear industry but it's common in many other areas as well. If it wuz me then I might do what others have done and add a time cushion to account for the inevitable delays. But to knowingly promise one thing, and then consistently and apparently unconcernedly fail to deliver it, is both immature and stupidly self-defeating. I think we've all seen that unfortunate situation here with a certain metalsmith and his daughter. Too bad. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Know what? Terry just does not have his finger on the pulse...Many years ago, Jim Laggiss, (Redfield and other rep for years) told me that the gun business and the liquor business were recession proof....may not extend to some gun writers! | |||
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My point exactly. As to the lawn mower and the smith you misunderstood my point totally. My comment had nothing to do with those two professions as they relate to each other. I simply stated that you would never accept the person who mows your yard putting you off week after week after week. Why would you accept a top of his field, high skilled professionally constantly not meeting the timeline HE set? I think the answer by reading your above quote is that you wouldn't. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Putting a deadline on a custom build, rifle or any other product is a really bad idea. It is like putting a deadline on taxidermy work, a mistake you will only comimit once YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY WITH THE PRODUCT.... When I get anything done by an artist of any sort, I just budget 50% more time than they asked for and am happy when I get a quality product that will last a lifetime, and if it is in the time promised, even better... Not right or wrong, it is just the way it is.... | |||
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Selected smiths have a fine reputation for both the exquisite work they produce as we'll as reliable punctual delivery. Such a disciplined combination has brought them much deserved success.
If I'm serious about getting one built by that maker, I make it a point to investigate his reputation for punctual delivery.
On a number of occasions I've paid upfront for all the work [and supplied parts upfront],then left the smiths with instruction and to their own devices, i.e. no over rbearing demands, no hassling phone calls every week or month,...it made no difference, I still got f*cked around to no end. Ive currently got a fully paid upfront project that was ordered some time ago from an AR smith, and its way way way over due,.. well after it was due, I decided to make some enquiry into its progress, result:...still no indication of what actual progress has been made or when it would be done. How much slack should one cut to these type of operators? | |||
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Over bearing? Unreasonable? Whatever turns your crank. I didnt ask for a specific completion date when I made my proposal. Asked them when they could deliver it. I accepted their delivery date and they did not want to lock in the date they proposed with the penalty clause. Simple economics, you promise, then you deliver. I have no problem holding onto my money and passing up sub standard service. Kinda ironic most of the double rifle builders like Searcy, Heym, Chapuis, etc can build a nice double in 4-6 months yet bolt rifles can take many years. It is interesting some of you think it is OK to pull a delivery date out of the sky, the customer accept it, then the builder thinks they have free rein to ignore it. One reason a lot of people go out of business. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I understand both sides of the issue. I've lost a few jobs over the years due to builders taking too long to complete the project and frustrated customers just saying the hell with it. Having said that, I've not ever had that problem with top tier gunmakers. Comparing Searcy, Heym and Chapuis to a one off custom gunmaker doesn't float no matter what side of the arguement your on. Two different species... Roger Kehr Kehr Engraving Company (360)456-0831 | |||
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In my limited experience with custom builds (two done and a third in gestation), my instructions to the smith has always been, "I want your best work, not your fastest." I was probably too close to the first smith and I'm sure he got tired of seeing me but he made me a very nice 7x57 Mauser. I didn't bug the second one and the rolling block Midrange Rifle Steve Durren delivered is stunning. I hope I'm being a good client for the third who is making a reprise of a G&H Springfield. They all took time to complete and the time it took seems to me worth it. Jerry Liles | |||
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