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(This is in no way meant to be disparaging and of course not an absolute mantra, but with some creative license.....) Unfortunately therin lies the problem in the custom gun business. By default the basic business model is run like a Ponzi scheme. Wherein Customer C/D/Es $ pay for the expenses and the manufacturing of customer A's and B's rifles.....and so on. Not with in any malicious or deceitful intent, that's just how the cookie crumbles. Now usually this does work, but it don't much to muck things up a bit. As seen here on this board over the past decade or so just a little nudge and down the slipery slope they go.......even the best of them. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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The nature of the work is such that the gunmaker must be prepaid. He is creating a product that has significantly less value to the open market then the cost to build for the customer. If the customer backs out the builder has no real recourse. Building actions that while handmade are standardized and really a component used to build the finished product is a different story. If Satterlee is building you a rifle he must have deposits and payments along the way. Those payments though should be used to purchase already existing components; actions, safety, barrel blanks etc. not used to finance the completion of other projects. The reason smiths with a proven track record command the premium prices is the significantly reduced risk to your money they offer. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I highly doubt you could have a custom car or motorcycle made under those conditions so why would a gunmaker accept them? SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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If every custom gun buyer insisted on those conditions custom gun makers would have to accept them. This idea that overhead is special to custom gunmkakers doesn't cut it. All businesses have overhead, and most businesses have markdowns to some extent. The truth is that successful businesses are adequately capitalized to the extent that they are able to finance their own labor costs until the customer receives and pays for his goods. | |||
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You miss the point. You are making to order a one of a kind product for an individual. The cost to recoup isn't possible on the market. You want a one off item you pay upfront/as you go. Only a foolish person would build then request payment in such an item. Capitalization cost and overhead have nothing to do with it. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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The rest of the world operates on contracts, non-performance clauses and performance bonds. Performance bonds have been around since 2,750 BC and the Romans developed laws of surety around 150 AD,the principles of which still exist. Only a fool would hand over a big wad of money without some guarantee of performance. Anyone can make a mistake, get hospitalized or go insane. In the end it is still business. I don't really have a bone to pick with gunsmiths it is the crooks that advertise themselves as guides and outfitters that are the worst of the worst. | |||
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That implies every business other then custom gunmakers operates that way. Simply not true. At the end of the day all to often those guarantees are not worth the paper they are written on nor is your court judgment. If you are involved in the world of contracts, bonds and clauses you know that. That's why its so important to do your due diligence take basic precautions Tec. Also why those with proven track records are able to charge for their hard earned reputations. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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You don't get around much in the business world. You want a highway or building built? It is one of a kind and it does not get contracted for without a surety bond. | |||
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Oh good grief. There is a huge difference between millions of dollars worth of roads projects and a custom rifle worth less then 10000 dollars. I've been involved in the construction industry for over 20 years. I've yet to run into a custom home that involved a surety bond. Heck most smaller commercial projects don't require them. The costs associated with them are simply not worth it. There are other ways to protect yourself. Agree with you 100% regarding outfitters but then that's not custom and they expect 100% up front months in advance. I'll never do that. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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If you got around much in the business world you would know that legally that is exactly what a deposit or down payment is, an unsecured zero interest loan.  You can't do business without trust. All the contracts, bonds, etc. in the world will not guarantee performance or eliminate risk and costs associated with failure to perform. Much simpler to pay a little more for quality and track record always seems to work out cheaper in the long run. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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FWIW when it comes to exotic cars, unlike the more common makers, they do require some sort of a deposit for a custom build. And while not $ for $ the equivalent of the practice in the custom gun world, a deposit is required. In some markets you have to buy a used Ferrari just to be put on the (3-5 year) wait list for a new one (or pay $50K over sticker for a flipped one), Aston Martin $5K, Lambo $20K, Porsche $2,500. The more "pedestrian" Jag and Mercedes never asked for one. My comment was made purely to illustrate why some builders have shortcomings. Nothing more or less. To ask a customer to pay after his project is completed, while ideal is not the answer to the problem- the answer lies within the builders' self makeup. Actually most of the time there is no problem for the consumer, rather the builder is the one losing sleep. How many guys struggled to get into the ACGG and then had to quit because of the pay.............. If one has the income to blow $10K upward for a gun, there is no issue at all to pay for it up front. And let's not forget most custom guns have depreciated the second chisel has been put to wood, let alone being "driven off the lot......" I have absolutely zero issue at all with how the system works even after having been burned (and more important embarrassed after having sold items to a fellow poster - my integrity is worth far more then a couple thousand $ I lost). In fact the majority of the time it works. But sometimes even a good apple falls from the tree...........bottom line: caveat emptor. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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I have never owned a full custom rifle, and probably never will. But I will put in my three cents worth anyway (inflation, you know), and make this observation. The custom gun business seems to be one of the very few businesses that it is the norm to expect delivery go way beyond promised delivery times and be happy with it. A person who agrees to produce something in a certain time frame should know their business well enough to make sure they can deliver in that time frame. They, the custom builder, tells the customer how much it will cost and when it can be delivered and should deliver it close to that time frame. I realize there are problems that crop up, but some stories I have heard are YEARS late in delivery. The other problem is that the people buying these products seem to be okay with it. I have used this analogy before, but still think it is a good one, is if you went down to a car dealer and paid most, if not total cost of a car, and then the dealer delivered it several months after the promised date, would you be accepting and happy with that? I know I wouldn't. Also there is stubbornness on the part of some manufacturers and builders. Many years ago when MRC was bringing out he PH action there was a post from the owner of the company that said he needed x amount of orders to generate the proper capital to produce them. At that time I suggested that if he raised the price by $50 an action, he had enough orders to meet the cost needed and it would be a win/win situation fro the manufacturer and the consumer. Well, he didn't like that idea and, what, 12 years or so later, there are still problems? I learned a lot from my parents and I remember one great lesson from my mom. We were building a house in Santa Fe after my parents retired. My mom was a realestate broker and very, very smart. She put in a clause that stated for each day past the promised finish date, a certain amount would be deducted from the cost. It was also agreed to that anything wrong would have to be fixed before it was considered finished. We got a lot of personal attention from the contractor and it was done right and on time. So why not do that with any custom gunsmith, gun maker, what ever you want to refer to them as. They state the time frame that the project is to be finished in. There can be some leeway for special circumstances, and then every day the project is not done, a certain percentage is knocked off the finished price. Pay for all the materials, and say, half the labor up front, and go from there. Then the it is in the gunmaker's corner. If they want to work diligently on a project and get it done on time then they get full price. If they want to do other projects instead, then it costs them money. That is a great incentive. Of course you would have to have some safeguards so that the customer could get all parts and pieces back if something didn't work out, as I seem to remember a very popular gunmaker went out of business and left customer's barreled actions in a shed where they got rusty. Anyway, just a thought. | |||
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While I'm not sure that the sampling of smiths here on AR is representative if the entire industry it does seem to be a problem. That's why I will almost certainly never start another custom project. There are to many premium quality factory and semi-custom products out there that are in dealer shelves or the resale market. Plus they don't deprecate the way customs do. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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If the argument is that custom gunmakers should conform to the business law paradigm of automobile manufacturers and civil engineering contractors before they can become acceptable parties to a transaction, then they will no longer exist. They are much more akin to artists than manufacturers, and artists work on inspiration and talent, not deadlines and contracts. Sure, they need money to live, but most don't become rich building rifles so the decision to make custom rifles is not financially driven. Some artists do get rich; but I doubt it was a result of their surety bond acumen. Excellence in creativity and execution is, as far as I can tell, not the natural outcome of legions of lawyers and bankers. I'm not a Medici Pope, but I don't think they got screwed by Michelangelo's delivery times. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Wink most of what we are discussing here are not works of art. They are hardly original either. The are just built in batches of 1. To compare any of this to the Sistine Chapel is a joke. I simply do not buy into the starving artist line of BS. Good suppliers are usuall very busy and they need to manage the business carefully. Part of the skill of performing a job is knowing the variabbility of similar projects and being able to accurately estimate the time and money required. If you cannot do that you will struggle financially and your customers with not be happy. | |||
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it's pretty common to have general contractor on custom home to include completion date and penalty at owner's request. So what becomes important to the owner also becomes important to the GC and if he's been around the block few times. He will also include a bonus payment if completed early in the contract. Construction law covers both owner and GC VFW | |||
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LOL--you don't have any customs from the "big boys" then.  The USG contracts with many variations that are called “contract financing”. There are other ways that one can make performance based payments---to just pay for the job when it is finished---hehehehe—Call Jerry Fisher or Ralf Martini and ask one of them to build you a rifle with payment after the project is finished. I can hear them laughing from here!! | |||
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Agree 100%. What art really is involved in doing something that has already been done over and over? Skill? YES! Talent? YES! I have thought for years that most custom gun builders problems would simply go away if they would only work 8 hrs a day in their shop. I would like to point out that this thread diverged onto the present topic due to the question of why gun builders request money up front. All the talk about bonds, performance clauses, penalties etc have one thing in common. They protect the customer. The business protects itself by demanding deposits upfront and/or progress payments throughout the project. Two HUGE real world differences between the gun building industry and the construction industry is that by and large in construction you are creating something that once finished is worth roughly what you are charging. Not true with custom firearms. A quick perusal of the online classifieds will show you that the resale market for custom rifles is well below the cost to have one built. Secondly the cost of what you are creating while very expensive compared to production models is a relatively small dollar value compared to the cost of legal proceedings. The business reason for requiring deposits is to provide protection against failures to pay. If I am building you a 10,000 custom rifle and ten days before it's finished you get buyers remorse and back out and disappear and I foolishly got no money upfront what options do I have? It would cost that much just to get a judgement against you which won't be worth the paper it's written on. The foundation of the transaction should be trust but each side should put in place a safety net that makes it easy for the other side to meet the terms of the agreement.  Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I don't think anyone has sued a gunsmith for not having a project finished on a date he said it would be done. Until that happens we can all past the time away dreaming. VFW | |||
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There is of course one definitive answer to this whole mess, and that is state regulation of gunsmiths and gunmakers. Hairdressers have to have a license, Physicians have to have a license, accountants have to have a license, lawyers have to have a license, liquor dealers have to have a license, and so on. When businesses that are regulated by the state steal money from their customers they don't last long. | |||
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Ronald Regan said the nine most terrifying words in the english language are: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help ..." I think it's a horrible idea you have there. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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+1 TC1, It would be a real cluster if that happened. | |||
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Do you think its a horrible idea that state governments make people get a license to operate their business, or that its a horrible idea that state governments make gunsmiths and gunmakers get a license to operate their business? I know its beyond the scope of this thread, but are you saying that doctors and accountants and lawyers and engineers and barbers and architects should not be required to have a license? | |||
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Maybe you need to move to Texas. None of my business' require me to be licensed. All the cities, states, and US Gov. want is your tax money. You can't legislate honesty. All of those professions have inept and dishonest people. Do they do anything about it, NO! | |||
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Yes, silvertip1, I do think it is a bad thing for the government to be involved, at all. Licensing was developed after the Civil War in order to keep the blacks that actually had the skills from working at the trade on the plantation from getting the better jobs in the North. Every time someone comes up with a license or certification, it is more to exclude people that may do a better job than include someone. If you do a great job but don't want a license, then what??? Why should people who do a good job have to be required to have a piece of paper? The worst electricians I know are licensed. Some of the worst IT guys I know are certified. The best ones just learn it and do it right without a piece of government paper. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I'm saying it's a horrible idea to give the goverment anymore control over our lives, property and freedom than they already have. The goverment isn't the answer to everything and it damn sure isn't in this case. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I for one appreciate the warning. I'm currently in the market for some barrel work on a Mauser. Four years late is ridiculous. Six months, maybe, but four years indicates absolutely no effort to fulfill his commitments. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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 Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I'm a gunsmith and actually do believe that we should operate under a license and not by reputation. I'm also a welder which requires quite a few licenses and under certain jobs, a test done beforehand to ensure the customer is satisfied with my level of performance. Same applies to being a tattoo artist, which I am, and same applies to certain aspects of machining, which I am a machinist. There should be a standardized testing protocol and licensing required before throwing on the merit badge of being a gunsmith and not a bubba with some metal working knowledge. I do only say this because I worked with a man whom called himself a master gunsmith. Master is an awesome name, right? And yet, I cannot remember how many times I had to patch up his botched work due to accidents with his dremel tool, or soldering failures, finishing failures, you name it. If I had known his level of expertise before agreeing to work as his underling; as opposed to accepting his reputation from fellow workers, than I would not have agreed to this. And yes, this was my fault so once bitten twice shy, now I know better. Speaking of which the swamp donkey still owes me $2k. Regardless, I have delivered custom rifles late before (not this late though!) and personally took a deficit to my own paycheck by refunding some dues to please my clients. Being a gunsmith is not a make a million job, unless you are Peter Hofer or whatnot. Throughout the time I did keep contact with the client about the progress and gave them distinct details as to why I am delinquent on their item. Some customers are downright nerve grinding to deal with though. For example, I had one that was fully okay with my expected delivery of 3 weeks for a trigger job, due to backlog. I get a call 5 days later from him utterly horrified that I am working on other customers guns currently and not his. Week 2 I get another call from him, seething and foaming at the mouth, calling me every explicit known to man because I was not done yet. He came in on his day of delivery with a wonderful trigger and proceeded to make quite a scene about how I was absolutely horrible and a liar. He came in again about a year later and as much as I wanted to refuse service, money doesn't grow on trees. Same thing happened again. Honestly I am glad that I haven't made it a full time profession. However, having such mixed reviews about Mr. Satterlee is quite unfortunate. I've never had the pleasure of talking with him. But, obviously there are seriously dissatisfied customers with complaints about his business and it appears that there has been no resolving actions completed. It is obvious that he does use this forum, and no attempts at public communication have been made. So...if someone is damning your reputation, it would make sense to confront and resolve the situation, right? Either I am not understanding the whole circumstance here (as there are a lot of "you're a troll" and "you're a liar" elementary behavior getting thrown around) or something is horribly unclear. "Molotov Cocktails don't leave fingerprints" -Dr. Ski | |||
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Mr. Metalsmith, I believe you made a mistake not divorcing your customer early on. We have licensed physicians that kill people, we have attorneys that are guilty of malpractice, air condition and heating folks that are not competent, and so on. Not trying to step on any toes as I have family that practice all of these professions. I had trouble with an ACGG smith several years ago, yes, the guild helped me, but it didn't make the guy competent or honest. | |||
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Butch, I wish I could have signed him off! At the time I was still active in the Marines plus working at that store at the same time to support my family. I made some dumb decisions when I was young so that was the best effort to alleviate the money problems caused by that. Duane, you'd probably have to hire a full team of writers, capable of delivering over 100 words per minute to accomplish that in a lifetime! You do make a very valid point though Sir. "Molotov Cocktails don't leave fingerprints" -Dr. Ski | |||
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Oh I understand. 33yrs in business allows you to be a lot more selective. I am lucky to have a great clientele. | |||
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Firearms manufacturers like Satterlee are required to have a Federal Firearms License. In most towns, you have to have a business license to operate ANY business. Many gunsmiths have graduated from some sort of school. None of which makes anybody competent. There are several custom gunsmiths that post on this forum. There is only one that keeps showing up as a "problem child". I don't need a government seal of approval to know which ones to do business with! | |||
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I use to enjoy reading on AR,not anymore,it seems to me a place for trolls,hacks,and grumpy men that have nothing better to do than stage "bitch parties" Saeed please "ban" me and put me out of misery. I think AR has become a "RAG". "A long life, and the good sense to live it." ...Quintis Arrius 375H&H,404J,416DAK,458AFR,416RIG,450RIG,505GIB Avatar: Gregory Peck & Susan Hayward in Africa NRA member | |||
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You defend a guy who will not refund a customers hard earned money after years of waiting for his finished product! You BS about why the money transfer didnt work! You start a new topic about your new Satterlee actions in the same forum! Satterlee posts on your new topic, but wont on this! Looks like your the one who is doing the trolling. Good luck, Tony | |||
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Silvertip1, please PM me. I tried to PM you, but it comes back saying you do not have the rights to view PM's. Rich | |||
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 Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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