The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Custom Built Rifles Poor Business practices continue at Satterlee Arms.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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It is coming to 4yrs now that Satterlee has failed to fullfill a pre-paid order[august 2009] order that was estimated by him to take a few months to complete[Jan-April 2010] BY August 2011, I was feed up with Satterlees poor progress and poor communication, so a refund was requested and agreed to. After a list of excuses by Satterlee and a much ensued struggle, I managed to get Satterelee to act on his word. He eventually attempted a refund by wire transfer in Sept/Oct 2012. For some internal banking reason, the WT failed. following that, on October 20th and December 6th 2012, I sent PMs to Satterlee to suggest/request use of alternative methods to help facilitate the release of my money from Satterlee. I have heard nothing back. - Seems its all too hard for Satterlee to respond. The only thing that prompted Satterlee to act in Sept/Oct 2012 was my AR report of his continued poor business practices[following on from his 2006-2008 delays,failed delivery,lies & deception to AR customers] Much like the previous AR customers, I got a bunch of bemoaning from his business partner/wife of how hard done by Stuart was...she made out like Stuart was the victim...[ I kid you not!] I though things were pretty simple in business... If a business operator prefers truthful positive reports from customers, then as the owner/operator you actually have to do the things that give customers viable reason to promote good will for you. Ignoring messages for a number of months [from current customers], is definitely not the way to go about it. Especially when you dismally fail to fulfill an order and still owe the customer some long outstanding funds. I can only report on my findings as a current Satterlee customer, Satterlee is choosing to maintain the poor business practices that have plagued his business for some yrs now. In addition to 20th Oct and 6th Dec sent messages, Satterlee has just been sent additional messages, ...lets see if he can bother to respond. | ||
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Like has been said a hundred times before.....if you are not willing to sue him, it is just bitching and moaning on your part. So DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT ALREADY INSTEAD OF BORING US WITH IT. Just my opinion. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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If the subject bores you, you have no obligation to read it or respond....just move along. I am happy for Satterlee to come here and have the chance to explain himself to help his business, but he never seems to take up the offer. | |||
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He does nothing....you do nothing. See the pattern. Guess not. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Regardless of whether I sue him or not, and regardless of whether he eventually releases my money or not, I am posting to make potential or current customers aware of his continued craphouse approach to business. Before the days of internet, more people would get burned before being woken up to such types of business operators. There is a solid list of past customers who wont touch Satterlee with a ten Foot pole...and for damn well good proven reasons. ..and its all of Satterlees own doing. When a contempt & disregard approach toward the customer helps get your business into further mess than it is already in, One really needs to ask why you are in business. There are ongoing reports of the 'Good Guy' smiths of AR... and likewise there should be continuous reports on those operators at the other end of the spectrum. Its seems that some people have forgotten what the AR forum is all about. "This site was started by a group of shooters, whose interests include hunting, target shooting and plain plinking. The idea was to share what we have learned from hunting, reloading, gunsmithing and any other shooting related ideas. We are not affiliated to any company involved in the shooting and hunting sports. So what you will find here are our actual experiences, good or bad. If you have any interesting ideas, or if you have come across anything you think might be of interest to other fellow shooters, please consider sharing it with us, we would love to hear from you." I see AR members who have at the bottom of their posts, the permanent message suggesting not to do business with certain unethical safari operators/booking agents. Yet some people object to someone doing update reporting on the continuously craphouse business practices of a rifle smith, ...go figure. I am happy to make my SA related business issue appear as a permament message at the bottom of each of my posts. Surely, I can use the same method that other ARers are permitted to use. | |||
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   Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Where is he ? Where are you ? Do you a judgement against him ? Proof of payment ? A notarized, witnessed affidavit of non receipt ? if #s 1&2 are < than 1000 miles and you have #s 3,4 & 5 then a visit with a local LEO in tow is needed. if not, kiss your $ adios. you can whine all over the Internet, it won't get your money back. next time maybe: -get refences -get a performance bond -get a signed ntarized contract -pay over time as each phase is completed -deal with someone you know and is closer just another example of why I avoid custom gunsmiths (except Doug Turnbull) insofar as is possible. if Kimber, CZ, Cooper or Doug can't make it for you .... you don't need it. | |||
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Not for this guy. He posts this same whiney garbage every six months without actually doing anything about it. 45-70 was being kind. Do a search. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I guess I was quite direct. Let's call it an intervention as he seems incapable of taking charge of a situation that was a clear problem for a l-o-n-g time. Posting here will have about as much impact on his problem, as standing on his back porch at 0200 screaming into the sky. Don't let the "troll patrol" find out you called me "kind" or you'll get some serious abuse. (chuckle) Love the bumper sticker I saw in KS: "The United States needs Kansas .... Kansas does not need the United States" | |||
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I don't want to get involved in a pissing match, but I'll throw in my 2 cents... Trax may not be ready to get LE involved, but I believe he is trying to provide a public service to prospective Satterlee customers. Truth be told, Satterlee's website shows some amazing products at amazing(relatively) prices. To a Mauser nut it looks almost "too good to be true". Trax is reminding us that the website only shows part of the story. I think his story is a warning for those of us who might follow down the same path. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Having been though a debacle with another less than reputable gunsmith I have to side with Trax in his efforts. Public sentiment can push a businessman to do the right thing once the heat gets turned up. Keeping folks "up to date" with the situation allows them to opportunity to re-apply the heat as they see fit. During my dealings with J White Gunsmithing I believe the heat applied by the AR community et. al. helped my case progress and eventually yield a successful outcome for me. I had read about this case but was not aware of the more recent developments. With this latest bit of information I would offer the following advice: File with State AG that the business resides in. I would expect that the case agent would appreciate a rational summary of the events and any supporting documentation File with the BBB and provide documentation in keeping with the AG submission Once this is said and done send a certified letter informing the business of your file claims with the AG and BBB. The letter should include a very objective summary of the events that have transpired. I would close by listing the actions or measures that need too be taken by the business and an acceptable timeframe for them to do so in order for you to be satisfied. Small claims may be a viable option dependent upon the laws of the state in which the business resides. Hiring and attorney to pursue that matter often costs more than the gun is worth and then does not guarantee that you will get your money back with additional expenditures. Filing with AG and BBB, following up with a certified letter and relying on the beneficence of fellow forum members to turn up the heat was most effective in my case. NRA Benefactor TSRA Life DRSS Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE | |||
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Just saying....look before you leap...the water is very deep.
Who has the authority to block a International wire transfer? THE OFFICE OF FOREIGN ASSETS CONTROL, 1500 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE,NW-ANNEX, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20220, ATTN: BLOCKED FUNDS APPLICATION http://www.treasury.gov/resour...ns/Pages/answer.aspx Trax, Only you can provide a clear unencumbered chain of command and pathway for Stuart to transfer funds. "A long life, and the good sense to live it." ...Quintis Arrius 375H&H,404J,416DAK,458AFR,416RIG,450RIG,505GIB Avatar: Gregory Peck & Susan Hayward in Africa NRA member | |||
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silvertip1, I agree. AG isn't interested and the BBB is a joke. | |||
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I provided clear and accurate details neccessary for the WT . For what ever reason the WT did not complete. I have heard all sorts of things happening to wire transfers from time to time. After being notified of the WT failure, I then messaged Satterlee to suggest other methods/options on how to realise my funds from him. Stuart has not bothered to respond to my 20th Oct. message , nor my 6th Dec. message concerning those alternative methods. Lets see if he responds to the messages sent to him 3rd Jan. 2013 If he chooses not to respond, I will gather that he prefers to continue on with his poor business practices. | |||
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Are you a resident of the United States? "A long life, and the good sense to live it." ...Quintis Arrius 375H&H,404J,416DAK,458AFR,416RIG,450RIG,505GIB Avatar: Gregory Peck & Susan Hayward in Africa NRA member | |||
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The WT transfer isuue is past. Satterlee needs to respond to numerous messages that have followed over the last couple months. I have suggested other options on how to release my funds. If Satterlee is still interested in running his business in a decent manner, he should respond. ..and if you are so concerned about what is going on, maybe you should try asking Satterlee why Trax is not receiving any responses from him. | |||
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Trax, You requested a refund from Stuart by International wire transfer and it was blocked. The ball is in your court. Stuart in good faith deposited funds for the wire transfer. He did his part. Like I said it's up to you to clear a pathway for the [legal] transfer of funds. In all honesty if the USGOV blocked the transaction,only you can remove that bar. Good Luck. "A long life, and the good sense to live it." ...Quintis Arrius 375H&H,404J,416DAK,458AFR,416RIG,450RIG,505GIB Avatar: Gregory Peck & Susan Hayward in Africa NRA member | |||
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I did request a WT and it did not come through. I am not blaming Satterlee for that banking system error, nor is is it my fault. Nor am I foolishly going to re-attempt a method that has already failed. My bank could find no reason for the WT not arriving. If Satterlee is still interested in releasing my funds he should respond to the numerous messages I sent him in the last couple months,suggesting alternative methods. Why does Satterlee refuse to communicate with/respond to, his customer? | |||
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45-70 shooter is Larry Root. Larry Root is a troll. Do a search. | |||
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If Satterlee is a decent business operator he needs to repond to his customers messages. He has other options available to him to release my funds, but he seems to be ignoring my messages to him concerning them. WT transfer is not the only way to release my funds. Stuart seems uninterested in using those other options, Stuart seems uniterested in communicating with me, which indicates to me, that he is not keen on releasing my funds. If Satterlee is genuinely interested in rectifying his business problem, he should respond to my messages to discuss the other available options which will allow the release of my funds. If he refuses to,then, it may well appear that we are dealing with a thief and fraudulent business operator. holding customers money long overdue for release -and- refusing to communicate with that customer concerning other available methods of release, speaks volumes of the kind of person Satterlee is revealing himself to be. | |||
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I wish you well. "A long life, and the good sense to live it." ...Quintis Arrius 375H&H,404J,416DAK,458AFR,416RIG,450RIG,505GIB Avatar: Gregory Peck & Susan Hayward in Africa NRA member | |||
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Stuart always comes through.Don`t worry,be patient.  | |||
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silvertip, In reality the AG and BBB did not do much, actively. They did assist in that fact that both groups contacted him in writing thus making him aware that the complaints were formal and on record. This would be ammo should one decide to go to court. The AG will take action if there are enough complaints. I do not know how much constitutes enough but your one complaint coupled with the others could constitute the enough. If no one files then there will never be enough. The AG will mediate and keep records of their actions, your response and the business response which could prove helpful in small claims or civil court as they constitute an independent record of the happenings. Having said that I think the biggest factor was the actions of the individuals on this forum and a few others. J White was inundated by phone calls, emails, etc to the point that his e-mail became unusable. He unplugged his phone and answering machine due to the volume of calls. He shutdown his Facebook page and removed the guest sign in/comment page on his web site. I do not know the full history of Trax vs. Satterlee posts beyond the post that started this thread. I was "fortunate" to have pictures of the butchery of my gun to provide folks with the impetus to call. My suggestion to Trax would be to file with the AG and BBB and thereby demonstrate his good faith efforts to resolve the matter on the record. Complaints with either could be the straw that breaks the proverbial camels back. I would then send the certified letter. I wouldn't have used the WT but some other monetary device such as bank or USPS MO or cashier's check. I would also suggest that Trax use the forum to ask other past and or currently dissatisfied customers contact the AG and BBB as well. NRA Benefactor TSRA Life DRSS Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE | |||
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Satterlee told me last year that he could not afford legal action against a customer who heavily short changed him on final payment for a rifle build. Satterlee still supplied the rifle to the customer and his business coped the finanical loss. So, In good faith I have not instigated legal action against Satterlee, I have just requested that my [long overdue] funds be released by him. Yet he continues to treat some customers[decent ones] with utter contempt. I guess thats ones reward for being understanding & considerate toward Satterlee. Several good guys on AR can testify to the same kind of craphouse experience with Satterlee. They, like me, all gave him support for his business operation, by providing money upfront and tolerating much more time for completion than initially indicated to do the job. ...resulting in endless delays, No delivery, poor communication,lies and deceit. If you short change/do the dirty on Satterlee - you still get your rifle from him. If you show understanding/do a good thing for Satterlee, he takes advantage of that to f*ck you around to no end. When customers bring the issue up on AR, you can then get Stuart responding with glib smart ass remarks, and his wife then pathetically bemoaning on how cruel & unfair his good customers are to him. [However this time around, the Satterlees are too cowardly to respond to the thread] It a great wonder that Satterlee Arms is still in existence, because it seems that they have no idea on how to create good will for their business by looking after/accomodating the highly supportive good and understanding customers. There is only so much contempt & arrogance decent upright customers will tolerate from such a craphouse business operation, Before those valuable customers go cold on you.
I can assure you that despite the above great sounding pledge,[after the 2006-2008 issue], that Satterlees delivery shedule and customer service are as craphouse as ever. Possibly worse. This is is just a pure and simple clinical finding/report[update] based on my personal current dealings with Satterlee Arms. which very much aligns with numerous reports from numerous past AR based customers. If someone still wants to continue or begin business with SA, be my guest. Maybe you will fair differently. | |||
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Larry, I'm sure Satterlee is flattered  you've taken up the battle left by J.D., may he rest in peace. Trax is doing the right thing imo______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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Trax might be doing the right thing for himself. A guy has to do what a guy has to do. But looking back on all of the posts concerning this mess shows that this public airing out has really done nothing, except maybe to embarass Satterlee or anger him to the point where he just said to hell with it, which is probably what alot of people might do after being talked about on a public forum like this. I think a personal approach would have been better. Go see the guy, and accept an action rather than money because the money you sent him is long ago spent, and replacement money is obviously hard to come by right now, but an action might be sitting there ready to go out the door. If you can't go yourself (if you are out of the country) send a representative. Or use some other creative negotiations to get something else done here. Maybe some other gun work, maybe some parts that he makes, maybe a stock job, maybe something else of comparative value. You might not get what you want, but you might get something, which is a hell of a lot better than getting nothing!!!!! | |||
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If the man hasn't delivered a pre-paid action in 3+ years would you really want to engage him in further business and wait some more with the hopes that it comes to pass this time? Would you really want an action that every time you used it reminded you of a bad situation? Yes, it would be best to settle this man to man rather than going public. At what point do you get to say enough is enough? You mention that maybe Satterlee is tired of the grief and has just decided to ignore the customer. Well let's look at it the other way. If Satterlee has sent the action before being paid and then Trax had failed to pay after 3+ years what would be said? I don't know Mr. Satterlee nor do I know Trax. Ensuring payment for the product was Trax' responsibility. Mr. Satterlee I am sure would not ship without payment. Mr. Satterlee has agreed to refund the payment but now that is Trax responsibility? WT can get messed up even if you do everything right. BTDT. Look at Western Union's policy about guaranteeing receipt of funds. Some say Satterlee will come through just wait. Until when? HOw long is long enough? The economy is tight and money is hard to come by for Mr. Satterlee but I guess Trax just has money flowing all over dthe place? This is a two way street and since Mr. Satterlee agreed to a refund after failing to meet an obligation whether he is pissed off, displease, hurt or financially in a bind is immaterial. Is Trax in a bind financially? If he had received the action as promised could he have sold it and used the money? He has neither his money nor the action to sell to get his money. He was promised and action and pre-paid for the same. That didn't come to pass. He was promised refund and hasn't received it. If a WT didn't work why can't Satterlee go the bank and get a MO or cashier's check? Who here would be willing to send their own money to Trax and wait on Mr. Satterlee to refund them instead? If you aren't willing then why do you expect Trax to be so? NRA Benefactor TSRA Life DRSS Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE | |||
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Heaven forbid Satterlee gets embarassed or angered for pulling these scams.In 2005 i told him i would take a 505 on his large action,even sent him a blank.7 yrs later there are pics of the action but no word from him.i did get my Titanium Mauser relatively(3yrs)quickly.Try running your business like this&see how fast you'd be in the food stamp line! | |||
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You can look at it anyway you want. You can theorize this thing to death, which has already been done here and in other threads. You can talk until you are blue in the face. You can let it bother you until you get high blood pressure or worse a heart attack or stroke. All of those things leave the ball in Satterlee's court, which has done nothing. Or, you can take the ball in your court and try something new (obviously what has been tried so far has not worked). Would I want to engage the man in further business if I had waited three years for a refund? Damn right I would if it got me something rather than nothing! I would go there. I would put my tail between my legs and apologize for the public airing. I would ask for an action and if one were not available I would see what other work could be done to equal the value of what I spent. Everybody on this board that has custom guns made is a successful person. If it were not so they could not afford the cost. And successful people know that their success doesn't come from without. It comes from within. It comes from one's own effort and intestional fortitude. | |||
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Ah what a tangled mess it is. . What do you mean by "blocking?" Another word for it is "freezing." It is simply a way of controlling targeted property. Title to the blocked property remains with the target, but the exercise of powers and privileges normally associated with ownership is prohibited without authorization from OFAC. Blocking immediately imposes an across-the-board prohibition against transfers or dealings of any kind with regard to the property. [09-10-02] 11. Who must comply with OFAC regulations? All U.S. persons must comply with OFAC regulations, including all U.S. citizens and permanent resident aliens regardless of where they are located, all persons and entities within the United States, all U.S. incorporated entities and their foreign branches. In the cases of certain programs, such as those regarding Cuba and North Korea, all foreign subsidiaries owned or controlled by U.S. companies also must comply. Certain programs also require foreign persons in possession of U.S. origin goods to comply. [09-10-02] 12. How much are the fines for violating these regulations? The fines for violations can be substantial. Depending on the program, criminal penalties can include fines ranging from $50,000 to $10,000,000 and imprisonment ranging from 10 to 30 years for willful violations. Depending on the program, civil penalties range from $250,000 or twice the amount of each underlying transaction to $1,075,000 for each violation. [11-16-07] http://www.treasury.gov/resour...ns/Pages/answer.aspx The block would take place by the U.S. Bank(Satterlee's agent) doing the wire transfer and initiated by the Bank's sanction team. The transfer was null and void and cannot be duplicated. The target bank(offshore and Trax's agent)would not be given a specific reason for the sanction. "A long life, and the good sense to live it." ...Quintis Arrius 375H&H,404J,416DAK,458AFR,416RIG,450RIG,505GIB Avatar: Gregory Peck & Susan Hayward in Africa NRA member | |||
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That is sensible enough for sure. I don't exactly know happened between the two prior to the public posts but it takes two to work things out in private. It sounds Satterlee is being elusive. His silence is also damning. The only thing worse than what he is accused of would be Trax if he were making false statements and that doesn't seem to be the case by the lack of Satterlees effort to preserve a reputation. We would all handle something like this a little differently and all think it was the best way. For me I'm close so I'd drive over and visit Stewart in person and perhaps give him a chance to at least make me whole with some other items of equal cost just to have "something" in hand. If that didn't work then I'd likely get pissed and then who knows what after that. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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If you are so disgusted and irritated by Trax' multiple,"whiney" posts why do you even open the thread? You see the subject matter and originating poster. So why even open it? All of us who purchase custom guns are not necessarily successful although that is a relative term. I saved for seven years to afford mine and once I was screwed over, that was it. So when you save to get what you want why should you have to settle for something? You seem to highlight what Trax should have done "better" but don't seem to bothered by the other side of the coin. Your solution is to accept the fact that he got screwed over, apologize for publicizing the fact that he got screwed over and then accept something less than what he paid for and was promised. With that type of logic we should all just give the government money when we send in all of our guns and apologize for owning them in the first place. And successful people know that their success doesn't come from without. It comes from within. It comes from one's own effort and intestinal fortitude. Does this not apply to Satterlee as well? Shouldn't he put forth the effort and have the intestinal fortitude to return the money he has promised to return on a product that he has failed to deliver and was long overdue? You are right I am sure that I will not change your mind and probably you won't change mine so further discussion is fruitless. I have provided what I thought to be helpful information for Trax. If he wishes to try and receive something less and lieu of potentially nothing as you suggest then more power to him. NRA Benefactor TSRA Life DRSS Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE | |||
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No, My logic says when something doesn't work try something else. | |||
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Well let's see Satterlee is in SD but Trax doesn't seem to post where he is (here and there is on no map). Odd isn't it ? In any case SD is at worst a 3 day drive from anywhere in the CONUS. Three years of being pissed, three years of holidays and vacations to drive to SD, three years of being able to complain to the IRS about unreported income, three years of being able to file compaints with BATF about non-serialized actions, the list of potential remedies goes on and on BUT all we hear is whining on an obscure blog. Interesting eh ? | |||
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What do you mean by "blocking?" Another word for it is "freezing." It is simply a way of controlling targeted property. Title to the blocked property remains with the target, but the exercise of powers and privileges normally associated with ownership is prohibited without authorization from OFAC. Blocking immediately imposes an across-the-board prohibition against transfers or dealings of any kind with regard to the property. [09-10-02] 11. Who must comply with OFAC regulations? All U.S. persons must comply with OFAC regulations, including all U.S. citizens and permanent resident aliens regardless of where they are located, all persons and entities within the United States, all U.S. incorporated entities and their foreign branches. In the cases of certain programs, such as those regarding Cuba and North Korea, all foreign subsidiaries owned or controlled by U.S. companies also must comply. Certain programs also require foreign persons in possession of U.S. origin goods to comply. [09-10-02] 12. How much are the fines for violating these regulations? The fines for violations can be substantial. Depending on the program, criminal penalties can include fines ranging from $50,000 to $10,000,000 and imprisonment ranging from 10 to 30 years for willful violations. Depending on the program, civil penalties range from $250,000 or twice the amount of each underlying transaction to $1,075,000 for each violation. [11-16-07] http://www.treasury.gov/resour...ns/Pages/answer.aspx Given that Satterlee is now open to possible civil and criminal penalties if he chose to violate the blocking and he will not....his hands are clearly tied. This matter for now is closed. Moderator given the recent developments here, I think this thread should be locked. Thank you. "A long life, and the good sense to live it." ...Quintis Arrius 375H&H,404J,416DAK,458AFR,416RIG,450RIG,505GIB Avatar: Gregory Peck & Susan Hayward in Africa NRA member | |||
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"Moderator given the recent developments here, I think this thread should be locked" Second that, nobody here is going to get his money back unless we have an attorney who enjoys Pro Bono work. | |||
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TRAX i got an e mail from an AR member a while back saying that Satterlee is really pushing things up hill, dont be suprised if the white flag goes up shortley , and his business goes into oblivion Hate to say it, but i think you may have lost your money and your action...hope im wrong | |||
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No wonder with a customer service such as his. Long-term you have to focus on the customers and not yourself. | |||
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Do you or anyone have any proof that 1) good funds were available for a wire transfer and 2) that such a wire was sent? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Yes.....as I have explained what exactly has taken place. Trax has even stated that Satterlee did fufill his obligation to initiate the wire transfer. That is not in question here. This transaction is closed,given the facts.
"A long life, and the good sense to live it." ...Quintis Arrius 375H&H,404J,416DAK,458AFR,416RIG,450RIG,505GIB Avatar: Gregory Peck & Susan Hayward in Africa NRA member | |||
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