What is a good plastic-hulled, Round Ball Load for the 20-bore/20-gauge?

I have this "RBL" side-by-side, fully rifled 20-gauge shotgun from Connecticut. Surely "RBL" means "Round Ball Load" eh?

I have the proper round ball mould in the post from UK, to make a round ball to match my bore.
Jeff Tanner is really prompt.
He either had what I needed on the shelf or he can rip one out in one day, and mail it the next.
He said to "spread the word."

jeff@ballmoulds.co.uk

www.jt-bullet-moulds.co.uk

For now, I am simulating with QuickLOAD:







Hodgdon Lil'Gun seems to be a great powder for this, per QuickLOAD.

I cannot identify the powder used in the Winchester Supreme Dual Bond sabot load for which the RBL was originally regulated.
However, 47.1 grains of Lil'Gun is needed, per QuickLOAD, to get the Winchester sabot payload up to the advertised 1800 fps.
QuickLOAD says my inputs result in a pressure of 16,045 psi.

I doodled up a 1600 fps load for the 350-grain round ball, roll-crimped to 2.5" shell length.
This is estimated for .617"-diameter Lyman #2 alloy casting, to fit the RBL .615"-grooved barrel.
That requires 43.0 grains of Lil'Gun at only 13,059 psi.

Hopefully QuickLOAD (doing the best it and I can with inputs) is over-estimating pressures but not velocities.


What say the "Bore Rifle Aficianados" about my proposed round ball load?
The wad column is pictured above, the white ball is a stand-in until I can cast my own.

Any pressure tested 20-bore round ball load data out there?

Reference:
SAAMI Shotgun Pressure Specifications (Maximum Average Pressure in PSI)
All Piezo measurements unless specified)
Cartridge Maximum Average pressure
10 gauge 11,000 (all)
12 gauge 11,5000 (all but 3 1/2" mag)
12 gauge 3 1/2" mag 14,000
16 gauge 11,500 (all)
20 Gauge 12,000 (all)
28 gauge 12,500 (all)
.410 Bore 2 1/2" 12,500
.410 Bore 3" 13,500

RIP I don't burn smokeless in the bore rifles. I burn black powder. Sorry I can't comment on the smokeless efforts.

On your wad column, ditch the card over the ball.
Just roll crimp or star crimp right over the ball itself.

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
On your wad column, ditch the card over the ball.
Just roll crimp or star crimp right over the ball itself.

Tinker,
Great idea!
I could put a longer wad column in and roll-crimp the hull to longer COaL,
with almost half the ball diameter protruding beyond the case mouth, when the 2.75" plastic hull is rolled down to 2.5".

And/or seat the ball with a hemisphere showing out of the mouth of the RMC brass like member nitro450exp did with his 20-bore-3":



http://forums.accuratereloadin...804/m/1501013531/p/3


This will possibly improve things two ways:
1. Greater effective case capacity.
2. 28,000 psi-capable RMC CNC-turned brass.

My little 2-3/4" RBL might be able to do 50 fps less than the mighty 3" of nitro450exp.

I will proceed by cutting a 3.5" RMC case down to 2.75" and see if it will chamber in the RBL,
and continue precision filing and trimming to no shorter than 2.5" brass length,
after initial non-precision cut by this method:



Then a new water capacity for the RMC hull can be measured ... I might get down to 12,000 psi even by QuickLOAD, using Hodgdon Lil'Gun in RBLil'gun.

I might even have to order some more RMC brass, hopefully still available.

Yep, RMC still going, stronger than ever it seems:

http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/index.htm

20 Gauge offerings: 1-3/4", 2-5/8", 2-7/8", 3", 3-1/2".
No 2-3/4", so the Rotozip may be handy yet ...
... or a special order, custom 2.75" length.

Your case length shouldn't affect the velocity ceiling, especially with that monstorous wad column.

The rifle's action will be the limiting factor - but I'm sure you'll be ok.

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
Your case length shouldn't affect the velocity ceiling, especially with that monstorous wad column.

The rifle's action will be the limiting factor - but I'm sure you'll be ok.

OK, no wads, "some" powder and a primer,
20-Bore 5/8" load with 346.2 grain Teflon-coated lead roundball, .610"/344-gr wrapped to .625"/346.2-gr.
I am still working on the crimp to hold the ball tight:




BTW, that is the Hornady .430"/265-grain Monoflex, gilding metal monometal with a plastic tip,
and a Slugs-R-Us 20-ga sabot that has been split into quadrants in hopes of making it shed on muzzle exit, hopefully at 1800 fps.

Round ball mould incoming from UK, made by Jeff Tanner. Just spreading the word, like Tinker did.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente, DRSS

That shorty should do well in a revolver.

RIP

I look on GB under "Alcan" there is a box of 10 NOS 20 ga brass cases.
I have several of these but haven't tried them.
Use the next size up nitro cards and wads from BPI and you can duplicate you shorty with a better wad column and more case capacity.

Nitro

PS : Forgot to mention they use G57 Alcan primer or 157 primers not 209.

a.tinkerer,

I suppose you have a vintage howdah pistol in 20-bore? Purdey howdah:



http://firearmshistory.blogspo...-howdah-pistols.html






Imagine the cylinder size on a 20-Bore revolver:



nitro450exp,

Your adventures with your "real bore rifle" 20Ga-3" have been a great inspiration for my RBLil'gun, thanks.
However, I have played with the thin brass hulls in 12Ga enough to know to stay away from them for my 20-bore round ball and sabot experiments.
It's "RMC Thick Brass" and high-brass-plastic hulls for me, soon as land conditions allow trips to the ranges.

RIP I do have a 20bore howdah, a Pedersoli not a Purdey.
I've owned vintage howdahs but the Pedersoli is pretty damn cool.
I run 70grains FFg and tightly patched roundball.
They print side by side right over the sight bead.
It's a ripper.

Adding a 20-bore howdah to the wish list ... Load recorded for posterity.

This may be a good load for the RBL:
2.750"-long RMC case, chamfer inside case mouth with 50BMG chamfer tool.
I had to cut off a 3.5" case to 2.750", filed square, and sharp outer edge of case mouth was beveled sightly or "broken" with a file.
I.D. at case mouth 0.615"
O.D. at case mouth 0.685"
Case wall thickness at case mouth 0.035"
Prime with CCI 209M primer.
Charge with Hodgdon Lil'Gun, about 46.5 grains.
Place BPI 20-ga gas seal over the powder.
Place foam wad sliced from a rope of 5/8"-thick polyethylene caulking backer rod, about a 1" length, between gas seal and ball.
Seat .617"/350-grain round ball of Lyman #2 into case mouth.
COaL = 2.975"
Crimp case mouth with MEC Super Sizer Model SS77 (for 20-ga).
Flawless reloading, cases will last forever.
10 cases will be a life-time supply.
Might anneal case mouth after every fifth firing.
These chamber and eject flawlessly in the RBL.



For what it is worth, and this may be guff, QuickLOAD can be manipulated to show 1600 fps at 10,000 psi for this 350-grain round ball load,
with 46.5 grains of Hodgdon Lil'Gun.
Garbage in, garbage out is what some may say ...

Gross water capacity of the home-made 2.75" RMC heavy brass case is 176.0 grains. The empty case weighs 713.0 grains, so cut.

1800fpsMV is brisk

I've chronographed 1900fpsMV from .600 ball over 180gr FFg via my Zihn English sporting flintlock. That's moving for ball over black powder. Smokeless will be less recoil than coal.

How does that 1800fps load compare to the factory load that Galazan suggested?
What's service max pressure for 20ga factory slug loads?

Is SAAMI max 12000psi..?

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
1800fpsMV is brisk

I've chronographed 1900fpsMV from .600 ball over 180gr FFg via my Zihn English sporting flintlock. That's moving for ball over black powder. Smokeless will be less recoil than coal.

How does that 1800fps load compare to the factory load that Galazan suggested?

I plan on sticking closer to 1600 fps with the 350-grain lead round ball.
I am hoping POI for it will be close to regulation load you refer to.
That is the 260-grain Winchester Dual Bond .452-cal bullet at 1800 fps.
Adding weights of plastic sabot, hard fiber filler wads, and plastic gas seal from a dissected factory shell:
Ejected mass is 333.5 grains, and that ejected column (minimally compressible) fills about 1.9" of length in the 2-3/4" shell.
It used 37.0 grains of unknown flake powder.
I have 8 pounds of Hodgdon Lil'Gun which is touted for use in 410-shotgun-2.5" with 1/2 oz. of shot.
It is probably slower and lower pressure than what Winchester is using in the factory sabot load above.


What's service max pressure for 20ga factory slug loads?

Is SAAMI max 12000psi..?

Yep, supposed to be 12,000 psi according to one internet SAAMI reference I saw,
trusted but not verified.
Reasonable in the grand scheme of things.

I will put a thin paper disc/Nitro card over the powder, and a gas seal under the bullet, bullet rolled in liquid alox/Lee Lube and air dried.
5/8"-diameter caulking backer rod,
foam filler wad that weighs only 1.5 grains per inch of length,
will be used to fill any air space in the case, and keep the powder in place.
Sound OK?

Never a Blaser Shooter,
Rip
Riflecrank Internationale Permanente, DRSS, SSSS, BASS, LASS, SLSS
******************************************************
Self Appointed Poobah of C.R.I.P.

Sounds like a good place to start.
I can't wait to see how it goes!

http://saami.org/specification...ons/download/209.pdf

SAAMI says 12,000 psi is correct MAXIMUM AVERAGE PRESSURE (chamber, piezo psi) for 2-3/4" and 3" shotshells, rifled slugs, and saboted slugs of 20 Gauge.
Gotta apply to 20-bore round ball too.
I will test-fire my first RB loads in the NEF/H&R 20-Ga Ultra Slug, or a Savage 220, etc.

Thirteen day transit from UK to KY, Jeff Tanner makes a nice round ball mould:



Fits perfectly in Lee handles for "Lee 6 Cavity and Other Brands of 1 & 2 Cavity Molds."



Fire up the melting pot ...

New plan is for a 350-ish-grain ball on a stack of gas seals with Blue Dot in the bottom of the shell: KISAC
"Keep It Simple And Consistent"

Warm that sucker up!

9.5 lbs of Magnum Shot (95:5/Pb:Sn)
plus
0.5 lbs of lead-free solder (95:5/Sn:Sb)
melts and mixes up for 10 lbs of Lyman No. 2 (90:5:5/lead:tin:antimony).

Neat and easy recipe for 200 round balls.
None of that funny looking stuff fluxing out of wheel weights for me.

RIP: For my Poor Man's Double Rifle, I've made a cheap crimper from a brass water fitting sold at Lowe's and other home sales stores. It has the correct diameter of our standard press and the correct thread to screw into the press. It has a hole that needs to be reamed in the lower end, or use a grinder to remove metal and make a cone. I've crimped round balls and Foster slugs. None have moved after two rounds have been fired in the adjacent barrel. Finger pressure has not moved them either.
Max

Max,
I love to make my own home-made reloading die sets, like you. Thanks for the tip, which might be useful on thin brass "cowboy" hulls.
My new balls are going to be tight in RMC brass, snug in plastic too, so no crimping emergencies right now.
I snip off the sprue with tin snips, and then hit the balls a few licks with a fine file.
5 of the balls at random treated like this came out very uniform, even though some are frosty and some shiney.
They are a little bigger and lighter than they would be in pure lead, but I think they will do:



I now have 8 pounds of these "20-bore" round balls, from the Jeff Tanner mould,
6 pounds of the "12-bore" balls from a 75-cal/.735"-nominal-sized Lyman mold,
and 6 pounds of the Lyman No.2 solidified in the pot.
Pip pip cheerio.

Sounds like the Doctor has it nailed. My gun is in 12ga and you are right, I'm using the thinner hulls. I may have to go to the 20ga just because I think it may be faster handling.
Max

Now I am zeroing in on consistent roll crimping of plastic hulls. These are all very close to 2.620" from base to "meplat" of the ball,
+/- 0.005", all are within 2.615" to 2.625":



Starting with 26 grains of Blue Dot, and an ungodly wad column that at least makes plastic hulls pretty on the outside.
I might get to regulation by adjusting the muzzle contraption of the RBL or adjusting the powder charge, or both.
Looking for a fun load. RMC brass will be easy if I get the ballpark load with this.
I can use factory cataloged RMC 2-5/8" 20ga brass (2.625") and not have to cut down the 3.5" brass. Uniformity!

Give them to a target!

...and how is the chrono repair going?

The latest ProChrono-Plus casualty is in the dumpster.
Target:
I am starting over, the old way.
No Chronograph.
Shoot to 50 yards off a standing rest.
Look for divergence or crossing and adjust from there until they are parallel.
I am all torn up over whether to get the regulation right for scope or iron sights ... ... Not!
I will probably be using scope more at my age,
so will go with scope,
and accept wherever it shoots with iron sights, for closer range use, like a blind man.
I doubt such a light gun will shoot the same with and without the scope.
I have a QD scope but the re-regulation is not so quick!

Can you make them tough enough to not deform on impact on game? Would act like an expanded 375 diameter bullet I guess.

330-grain .619" balls of Lyman No.2 (BHN about 15) are hard enough for pigs and deer.
Any harder and they might be brittle and shatter.
Pure lead (BHN 5) could be fun for the splat effect too.
Pure lead from the Jeff Tanner mould would be a couple thou smaller and a few grains heavier, very useable.

That mould is pretty cool. You could fill it with almost anything that would fit and add some apoxy or lead. have you tried epoxy and BBs? Tin foil balls and lead?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
That mould is pretty cool. You could fill it with almost anything that would fit and add some apoxy or lead. have you tried epoxy and BBs? Tin foil balls and lead?

Right on!

RIP

Target Please.
Looking forward to results.

Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
RIP

Target Please.
Looking forward to results.

Nitro

Making progress, here is a teaser.
New wad column and COaL striving for uniformity
and some semblance of accuracy in a mono-barrel TC Encore.
From 3 bucks per factory-loaded sabot round to just pennies for my plinkers, and likely more powerful and accurate when I get there.
Use razor to slice off the petals on an "Orange Duster" shot cup wad, use 2 of those plus a BPI gas seal,
Effectively getting 3 gas seals between the powder and the ball.
This works better than a stack of 6 BPI gas seals, or any combination of card and fiber wads with a gas seal:



The TC Encore shop mule used to assess for some semblance of accuracy, before proceeding in the RBL:



The horizontal spread is probably as much me as the load, vertical spread is small enough to be encouraging:



And only two shots were left to try in the RBL. 2-shot target rescued from the trash on second thought.
It shows that I need to speed up the balls to get them closer together.
Vertical regulation will need adjusting.



Scope will raise or lower the zero greatly either way, when load is parallel in the same plane.
I have a way to go yet.
Will strive to get COaL between 2.660" and 2.665" if that is possible with roll crimping,
and increase the powder by 0.5 grain increments of Blue Dot until they cross.
This is a shotshell learning experience for me.
Round ball learning experience too.
soon I shall have re-invented flintlock ballistics!

Round balls are worthwhile.
I think they have a bad rap in shotgun due to the usual use of under-sized "sub-bore" balls.
"Pumpkin Balls."
"Punkin Balls."
A plus-bore ball with some spin from a "bore-rifle" is capable of accuracy and it carries about as much weight as any of the shuttlecock slugs.
No discarding or nondiscarding sabot contraptions or complications.

Really not much more you can do than RB weight within the 12,000 psi limit for SAAMI shotgun spec for a 20-bore.
Medium hard balls:

RBL stands for "Round Ball Launcher."

RIP

Thanks for the update.
You are slowly inspiring me to get back at it myself.
Got another 3" of snow and 4 ° outside.

The 16ga has 12.500 psi IIRC.
I think you have some latitude with a strong modern action.
Just watch your primers for signs of pressure.
And measure you cases for case head expansion , yes even shotgun shells can tell you something with case head expansion.

Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
RIP

Thanks for the update.
You are slowly inspiring me to get back at it myself.
Got another 3" of snow and 4 ° outside.

Yep, know what you mean, I was shoveling snow again today. After getting up to 52 F Saturday at the public range, it was thunder and sleet Sunday morning then snow Sunday night, 18 F now and warming. I am slow enough at inspiration even with good weather.

The 16ga has 12.500 psi IIRC.
I think you have some latitude with a strong modern action.

Yep, the RBL will not impair the fun.
SAAMI Maximum Average Pressures (MAP)
seems to be the same for shotshell, rifled slug, saboted slug, and buckshot:
10 ga 3.5" ... 11,000 psi
10 ga 3.0" ... 11,500 psi
12 ga 2.75" and 3.0" ... 11,000 psi
12 ga 3.5" ... 14,000 psi
16 ga 2.75" ... 11,500 psi
20 ga 2.75" and 3.0" ... 12,000 psi
410 bore 2.5" ... 12,500 psi

Just watch your primers for signs of pressure.
And measure you cases for case head expansion , yes even shotgun shells can tell you something with case head expansion.

Nitro

Soon as breakup comes and the creeks drain a little.

Always wanted a 20 ga DR. Tried to find spare barrels for my Rossi Squire to cut rifling into, but maybe, I'll just buy a cheapo Stoeger. My Rossi now has a spectacular fiddleback straight grip stock, but the Stoeger probably is only a little more than I would pay for a set of barrels for the Rossi.

The grooved bore was invented to make the musket easier to clean of black powder fouling.
One old musket maker got his grooves cocked and noticed it made the ball spin and shoot more accurately.
Eureka! Rifling was invented!
At 50 yards a smoothbore does well enough with either a patched round ball or a bore-obturating soft lead round ball or shuttlecock slug,
and smokeless powder fouling is minimal,
compared to BP.
Sometimes one finds a surprisingly well regulated SxS or O/U smoothbore shotgun and one could have a straight cylinder smooth bore by chopping off the fixed chokes, and installing rifle sights on the rib.
Or screw in some IC chokes, or even Paradox rifled chokes as barrel extensions and give that a whirl.
Gotta have a double trigger of course, for plinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Lanny from NY:
Always wanted a 20 ga DR. Tried to find spare barrels for my Rossi Squire to cut rifling into, but maybe, I'll just buy a cheapo Stoeger. My Rossi now has a spectacular fiddleback straight grip stock, but the Stoeger probably is only a little more than I would pay for a set of barrels for the Rossi.

Lanny,
You got the same bee in your bonnet as me.
I forgot I squirreled these away, about $390 from the local emporium (current price there):
E. R. Amantino MADE IN BRAZIL Stoegers, stowed away in a dark corner, standing on their muzzles. Double triggers.
20 Gauge/20-bore, one is a 26" Uplander Field and the other is a 20" Uplander Coachgun.
Amazingly they both weigh 7#-1oz.

20" Uplander Coachgun has a rubber buttpad, LOP to front trigger of 14.5", 13.5" to rear trigger, and a beavertail forearm.
It is muzzle-light.


26" Uplander Field has a thin, hard plastic buttpad, LOP to front is 14", 13" to rear trigger, and a slimmer beavertail forearm than the Coachgun.
It is muzzle-heavy, even though not as long as the +26-incher shown here, so adding a pad will help it balance and get right LOP:

And Stoeger offers that as their Uplander Supreme:


Stoeger also has different versions with polished nickel-plated receiver and barrels,
and they claim versions with "stainless steel receiver" and blued chromoly barrels.

The screw-in chokes both of mine have are Winchester-style, and I have a couple of rifled choke tubes that fit them.
Same chokes as for the earliest Ruger Red Labels. Also squirreled away years ago.

After I get the RBL round ball load perfected,
I will shoot it in these two Stoegers, see which one shoots best, and put rifle sights on the rib of that one.

The short segment of rifling at the end of the barrel ought to work like a 20-bore Paradox by H&H or "Faunetta" by WR.
Certainly adequate for a .619-caliber/330gr ball, and hopefully won't spread buckshot too much.
Surely at least one of those 4 Stoeger barrels will shoot to desired point at 50 yards,
with either open sights or scope.
The ribs are thick enough to screw on a Weaver base, purpose-made for this.
Close range buckshot in the other ones.

Maybe try a shotshell-loaded, patched .610-caliber/344gr swaged lead ball from Buffalo Bore,
or cast your own from the common .610"-mould and pure lead,
in the quest to recreate .62-caliber flintlock ballistics, external and terminal.
That might work in the RBL too.
Patch might keep the .610"-diameter ball aligned until it gets into the .615"-grooved rifling.

20-bore Cowboy: Yeeha!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFVXJqfOjZU


http://www.stoegerindustries.com/shotguns


http://www.majorpandemic.com/2...supreme-shotgun.html

Going up to 30 grains of Blue Dot did not make much difference,
but I did notice a lot of unburnt powder in the bore, especially with 30-grain Blue Dot load.

Next step is to try a 209 MAGNUM primer, and a thin nitro card over the powder, under the first gas seal.

Though I have not found a uniform enough load for true regulation, yet, I am slowly getting there.
The 330-grain round balls make a very satisfying "SPLAT" sound when they hit the target at 50 yards.
Should sound even better on deer and pigs.

RIP: One of the things that I have done is cutting the petals off the upper-most wad and seating this one up-side-down. This give a rounded portion for the ball to seat on and center itself down the bore. Try a few your way, then a few my way. See if this adds any accuracy to your loads. It did to mine.
Just a thought.
Max