Max,
Thanks for the suggestion, but I have tried it both ways with the "Orange Duster" Cut-down wads.
No noted improvement either way.
The Winchester AA wad's gas seal has a cone-like point in the center of it that screws up any seating of a ball there.
However the Winchester AA wads are stouter, stiffer, better built.
Hey, it is not hard to align a Plus-Bore-Size round ball going into a funnel throat leading to the bore, auto-aligning, right?


Getting a consistent powder burn with a consistent Cartridge Overall Length is most important I do believe.

Here is the latest experimental search for consistency, to be tried next:

A thin "over shot" nitro card is placed over the powder (30.0 grains of Blue Dot),
then a BPI gas seal, then the Win.AA wad cut-down, then another BPI gas seal,
topped off with the round ball and a roll crimp.
Still using the standard "Cheddite" primed 2.75" plastic hull.
Messing with the primer is saved for next loading trial, after I see how this shoots, maybe tomorrow:




RMC 2-5/8-inch "Heavy Brass" loaded to duplicate this plastic-hulled load will be easy to do.

First up, the RBL 20-Bore, fully rifled, with heavier scope, a Nikon 1-4x20mm Monarch:



Next up, a couple of Stoeger 20Ga shotguns that I drilled and tapped myself, with hand tools and a drill press, to accept Weaver bases on the ribs.
Thus I avoided any possible ridicule to be encountered when asking a gunsmith to install German Claw mounts on the Stoegers.

Leupold 2.5x28mm scout scope:



Leupold 1-4x20mm shotgun scope:



Just to make me feel better about the RBL, I'll see where the Stoegers shoot the same loads at 50 yards,
with "Paradox" rifled chokes:
Uh oh, twist is in same direction for both barrels. Paradoxically paradoxical for these.



Dry firing the Stoegers with snap caps is smoothing them up some. The triggers are getting easier to pull.

Standard Velocity & Pressure Barrel 20 Gauge 2-3/4" Rifled:
The throat is a 5-degree cone-angle that starts at 2.750" distance from breech face (+ 0.010" length tolerance)
with diameter there of 0.6850" (+.0005" tolerance) which tapers into rifling:
.609" (+ .002") bore dia.
.618" (+ .002") groove dia.

Just rolling a lead round ball of 0.619" diameter into that funnel throat ought to auto-align nicely with the bore axis.

SAAMI makes this statement:

"It is recognized that shotguns designed for rifled slug loads are sometimes manufactured with bore diameters smaller than the dimensions shown on the cartridge and chamber drawings and on the test barrel drawings. Velocity and pressure tests in 12 ga. and 20 ga. have shown no significant effect on pressures."

Yet I read elsewhere from Winchester Engineers loading shotshells, that a 0.050" difference in Cartridge Overall Length of a shotgun shell can change pressures by 2000 psi,
in a cartridge where 12,000 psi is maximum average allowed ...

BTW, the Stoegers have 3.0" chambers, so at least I can burn up some 3" plastic hulls in them.
Maybe trim the once-fired 3.0" down to 2.75" and use them again if roll-crimpable then ...

RIP

I find your round ball 20 bore development very interesting.
Please let us know what is your final load, ie the weight of the ball and the velocity.

What game would you consider it good for?

The reason I ask is I have a few 20 gauge drilling/combo guns, as well as the Savage 18.5" Mod 311 20 ga double gun I use a lot as my ranch utility gun with bird shot, buck shot, and slugs, including Brenneke slugs.

I have killed a deer with 20ga buckshot, and I was impressed. I think that the 20ga is very underrated with buck and slugs... And in your case with the round ball...

Thanks, Tony.
I'll keep you posted.
Will get some shielding for a chronograph when the load is finalized.
I have killed more than one chronograph with wads and sabots!

I added some more to the "changing scopes" thread.

Not mentioned there was that the Stoeger Uplander Field with 26" barrels crossed by just a couple of inches horizontally at 50 yards,
but the left barrel shoots about a foot higher than the right barrel at 50 yards.

The Stoeger Coach Gun with 20" barrels did about the same, horizontally, crossed by about 2" at 50 yards, but the right barrel shot only 4 inches higher than the left barrel, at 50 yards.

Looks like the Coach Gun is the winner!
Even that would be usable for deer and pigs at 50 yards.
I am hoping to get the RBL usable for deer and pigs out to 100 yards, with round balls.

If a 20-ounce scope won't bring the RBL barrels to parallel at 50 yards, then I am getting out my screw driver and hex wrenches, and re-regulatin'.

Finding an accurate round ball load is a lot easier than finding an accurate factory discarding sabot slug load.

The slugsRus folks say that IMR-sr4756 is better than Blue Dot.
That is next in my bag of tricks if I need to re-regulate.
And rumor is that IMR-sr4756 powder will be discontinued sometime this year ... I'll stock up on it if I go there.

RIP -- I find your round ball experimentation interesting as well. I have been thinking of the same type of ammunition but with a rifled 20 ga. single shot. What twist rate is the Encore ? Have you tried it at 100 yards with those same rounds shot at 50 yards ? If so what did it do ?

RIP the problem, with any saboted round as I am sure you know, is the inconstant release of the sabot, from round to round. Many times that causes extreme flyers.

Instead of a sabot, I wonder why no major manufactor has not used the Brenneke priciple.

ie. the wad is attached to the base of the "bullet" which does not even touch the barrel.

With a "stiff" enough wad, this should work for a rifled barrel as well...???

Take a look at the Westley Richards "Guage" ammo. They calaimed there 20ga "Faunetta" ammo was good for Alaskan moose and Bear.

It was way ahead of its time. In fact it has never been duplicated even to this today.


Also I shot a Holland & Holland Paradox gun, and its accuracy was impressive, equal to any double rifle...

If I hunted a lot in an area that was shotgun only, I would definately have a double barreled shot gun, properly regulated, WITH a scope in QD mounts of course.

quote:

Originally posted by clayman216:
RIP -- I find your round ball experimentation interesting as well.

Thanks. More fun than two barrels of monkeys.

I have been thinking of the same type of ammunition but with a rifled 20 ga. single shot. What twist rate is the Encore ?

The TC Encore has a 1:22" twist, 0.615" grooves, and Ed Hubel says the 26" long barrel's contour is capable of having its 3" chamber lengthened to 3.5".


Have you tried it at 100 yards with those same rounds shot at 50 yards ? If so what did it do ?

No I have not tried at 100 yards yet, the 50-yard TC Encore test with round balls was just to check on my improving loading techniques,
and that was with 2.75" ammo in a 3" chamber, not optimum.
I am not there yet, getting better with consistency of roll crimp and fillers/wad.
IMR SR 4756 might prove better than Blue Dot also.

Surely a 1.5 MOA 3-shot group with round balls at 100 yards will be possible with best ammo in the scoped TC Encore.
Ditto a Savage 220.
3" ammo in a 3" chamber, of course.

The slugsRus.com folks say that their 20-ga. 400-grain payload Hammerhead slug (340 grains of flat-nosed lead plus 60 grains of non-discarding "Sabot Pressure Wad") gives these velocities, in 20" barrel, with these powder charges:

23.0 grains IMR SR 4756 >>> 1350 fps
27.0 grains of Blue Dot >>> 1500 fps
30.0 grains IMR SR 4756 >>> 1510 fps

About 1600 fps with a 330-grain .619" round ball of Lyman No.2 in 24" to 26" barrels is possible.
That is about as fast as you can go with a 60-cal BP muzzle loader.
That is like a monster BP Hawken load of yore.
Jeremiah Johnson made do with less.
Should be good for big game out to 125 yards, if the wind is not blowing sideways too hard.
All the conicals and sabot loads are needless complications.
You cannot get much heavier than the round ball and stay within SAAMI pressures for shotgun.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
RIP the problem, with any saboted round as I am sure you know, is the inconstant release of the sabot, from round to round. Many times that causes extreme flyers.

Yes, and why I could shoot 14 shots through the chronograph, and the 15th sabot separated and dove down into the chrono innards.
Scratch one more ProChrono Plus.

Instead of a sabot, I wonder why no major manufactor has not used the Brenneke priciple.

ie. the wad is attached to the base of the "bullet" which does not even touch the barrel.

With a "stiff" enough wad, this should work for a rifled barrel as well...???

True, but I just like the home-cooked lead round ball for economy and simplicity.

Take a look at the Westley Richards "Guage" ammo. They calaimed there 20ga "Faunetta" ammo was good for Alaskan moose and Bear.

It was way ahead of its time. In fact it has never been duplicated even to this today.

Also I shot a Holland & Holland Paradox gun, and its accuracy was impressive, equal to any double rifle...

If I hunted a lot in an area that was shotgun only, I would definately have a double barreled shot gun, properly regulated, WITH a scope in QD mounts of course.

Hence the RBL for shotgun hunting areas.
And I am going to mount scopes on every SXS 20, 12, and 10 gauge, 2-trigger shotguns I can get my hands on, until I find a few that shoot into 4 inches at 50 yards.
That is useful enough for some fun trigger time.

RIP

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
About 1600 fps with a 330-grain .619" round ball of Lyman No.2 in 24" to 26" barrels is possible.
That is about as fast as you can go with a 60-cal BP muzzle loader.

I'm getting much much more from my Zihn 20bore English sporting flint rifle burning goex FFg



Tinker

OK, OK, I did say "about" as fast, and I doubt you are getting all the way to Mach 2 instead of just a little over Mach 1.5. All easily supersonic.

Super-DUPER!!


;-)

Damn You, RIP! From the .395 caliber to a 20ga double slug gun. Heaven knows I've been having fun with the 12-bore double slug gun, now I have to go buy a Stoeger 20ga coach gun and rifled chokes. Oh, when will it ever end?

20-Bore damnation is fun too.
The choke tubes used in the Stoeger are "Winchoke" type threaded for screw-in.
The ones I found years ago and just recently screwed-in were made in USA by CATION, Troy, MI.
They called it '"SNIPER" For Slugs 20 Gauge' item # S-688. You'll want to get two of them for the "double damnation" of it all.

Thanks! The problem is, I've gone crazy for each project I've gotten involved with. See? a college prof ending a sentence with a preposition.