I am only a year into double rifles and still learning a lot. I could describe the chain of reasoning I went through to arrive at this idea, but only a fellow INTJ would be remotely interested so I'll skip that.

Bottom line is I just came across these modern falling block doubles and I think they are a GREAT idea. Assuming Bailey's rifle is as strong as a #1 or close to it, a 450 NE double on his action should easily outperform a Lott. The 450 NE has a case capacity of 136 grains of water. The Lott has 110 and the 460 Wby 141. I could easily see having one of these rifles in 450 NE and having it regulated for a 500 grainer at 2300 fps. The rifle ought to be faster to reload than a traditional ejector double as well.

Of course, all the above is just theory in my mind at present. Has anyone used one of these rifles? Are they faster to reload than a break-open double? Are they strong enough to step up the velocity over a traditional double?

Question is why would one need 200 fps more than a 450 NE in a double?
I can see having a scope with a 100 yard zero for one barrel and a hot load but for that but I would want a single shot more than a double rifle. Maybe what you want is a BB double chambered in 458 Lott. I am thinking a BB double chambered in 577/500NE in one barrel and 577NE in the other barrel would be pretty sweet.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Question is why would one need 200 fps more than a 450 NE in a double?
I can see having a scope with a 100 yard zero for one barrel and a hot load but for that but I would want a single shot more than a double rifle. Maybe what you want is a BB double chambered in 458 Lott. I am thinking a BB double chambered in 577/500NE in one barrel and 577NE in the other barrel would be pretty sweet.

I didn't ask that question because I don't want to get into the velocity vs penetration discussion here. I want to keep this more about the rifle.

The reason I would opt for the NE over the Lott is a 450 NE will get a 500 grainer to 2300 fps at 53,000 PSI. The Lott needs 65,000 PSI to do that.

I am assuming the BB double will handle that, but I don't really know.

Gotcha. Well BB might post on that question of PSI max of the action but I guess your brass might give out before your action. Things to ponder would be extraction and tightness of chamber not to mention grouping of factory ammo. I would look up the 75% rule and look for nominal factory load regulation with higher velocity lighter rounds grouping well.

I savvy intj, though i aren't one.

I did some work, and then it caught on a bit, of a hot loaded 45/120 -- called the 45/120 nitro express, to separate these from the 45/120 bp, as these loads are intentionally higher pressure

the 450 NE and 45/120 are closer in actual capacity than frequently stated .. call it 4%, which would result in a 1% increase in vel for the same pressure. That is another discussion.

So, why not load up the 450 NE to something hotter?
Logical reasons - some just logic, some mechanical, and some "purpose"

1: CIP specifies both pressure and velocity. what you would have would actually not be a 450 NE in that narrow definition
2: if those rounds went into any other rifle, the sights and regulation would be off -- and that presumes (i don't) that the pressure would not damage the rifle.
3: liability of above
4: regulation of the double - this is a religion, but allow me to say this, briefly, that both barrels shoot to point of aim at a specified distance. (note: i am agnostic in this holy war) -- however, we'll just say that the load it is regulated to would no longer shoot both barrels to point of aim, and no certainty of even one barrel shooting point of aim, and that same degree of uncertainly divided by itself, that the gun will no longer regulate

an aside, but important - most doubles are subjected to proof loads - CIP actually dictates the pressures of PROOF LOADS -- SAAMI does not. Just facts-- those proofs are whatever pressure CIP specifies, and I don't conjecture on those.. but let's say a MINIMUM of 30% higher than standard pressure, meant to prove the action. this is, again, another discussion.

5: part of the work that produces velocity is pressure.. the other part is time. let's pretend that we will use more of the same powder, rather than a different powder (again, religion, but changing powders MAY change regulation -- ) means that if you are using the same bullet, primer, powder and gun, the only variable you can then change is pressure -- the "obvious" pressure changes, sights not being useful - changes in POI v POA, and unregulated barrels, now -- with the CHANCE of damaging the gun, as you MIGHT be essentially "proving" the gun, on every shot --

did I mention that "prove" means the maker has proved the gun can take ONE over pressure load an not show wear or that its coming apart??

6: bolt thrust - this is the killer on big carts -- bolt thrust is (insert your religion's text here) .. (useful way to get it) the case surface area * PSI (use whatever units you want, just be consistent).. you can't escape bolt thrust, and its a dramatic increase as you increase pressure.

okay, there's about 20,000 more hours of discussion, but the rest is details, i feel, and here are the basic parms you need to understand why .. and why there's no 50 bmg double rifles

Jeff, with all the caveats used in the above, you'd be great at writing insurance policies instead!

I can see a nich market for 458 Lott falling block doubles but I would not want to hold the rifle while doing proof loads

i took me about 5 years, and making 2 double rifles to even get this much.. and there's tons more that goes into the details, but his question needed answering ... better than screaming "heretic" and getting out torches and pitchforks.. i don't do panther piss answers

Jeff,

You seem to be thinking I want to load up a break action double in 450 NE to a hotter load..............not so. The Farky action used in a #1 is much stronger than a break action, for reasons that are very evident. To that point a #1 in 450 NE can shoot 500 grainers at 2300 fps, which is around the 55,000 PSI region. If the Farky action BB is using is as strong as the Ruger, then there are no action strength issues.

I have no interest in shooting factory ammo in this rifle and I would have it regulated to my selected load. Also, I don't let ANYONE use my handloads in another rifle and I don't know anyone that does, though it potentially is good Darwin Award material.

The proof load would simply be the proof load used in a #1.

All I need to know is how strong of an action BBs Farky is. Also, I suspect the safety margin of a 55,000 PSI load in a Farky is greater than the safety factor of a 40,000 PSI load in your favorite break action double. Hopefully, someone can confirm or deny my suspicions...................

The action will handle it. The brass may be a little thin so you may have extraction issues. Other than that I also thought about doing the exact same thing. Bailey persuaded me to go with regular 450NE loads, but was open to doing it according to my idea. I changed the project completly to 450NE droplock.

If you want 2300-2400 fps. Why not go with 500/416NE (410 grain@2400fps) instead?

The issue here is that 450NE is not a 500gr bullet at 2300fpsMV

If you want a 500/2300 rifle, choose the cartridge that makes that energy, just don't call it a 450NE
Hornady claims 500/2300 with the 500DGS 458 Lott ammunition.
If 500/2300, there's your choice - Lott ammunition from Hornady.
More muzzle energy than 500/2300 ain't a Lott.

For instance, 460 Weatherby claims 500/2600
Perhaps you want a 460 Weatherby double rifle.


Dangerous game cartridges are standards.
The DG double rifle is just not the same song/dance as a market variety remchester bolt rifle at the loading/shooting bench.
The DG double rifle is absolute reliability and consistency with any ammunition marked for the chambers of that rifle, anywhere, any time.
A DG double rifle will (should) be built around standard factory ammunition, subsequent handloads are developed to duplicate that performance in the subject rifle.


If you chose 460 Weatherby, it wouldn't be the first double rifle built for the cartridge - might be the first falling block double rifle in 460 though - and it would surely be fun!

This is no different than the 45-70 and it's three loadings of 28,000 PSI in a Trapdoor; 45,00 PSI in an 1895; and 55,000 in a No. 1. All three loadings are still called a 45-70, just as is a Ruger 1 shooting a 500 grainer from a 450 NE at 2300 fps.

We have many cartridges that were originally loaded at lower pressures that can now loaded much hotter in stronger firearms, like the 7x57, 30-06, and 280 Rem. Making a stronger firearm and handloading a cartridge to a higher PSI doesn't change the name of the cartridge. However, in the name of peace, I can call this a 450 NE +P if it makes people feel better.....

The brass issue is one to consider, but I would expect the secure lockup of a falling block would take care of that, as the Ruger #1 has shown. A falling block directly opposes bolt thrust while a break action does not. A break action locks up is an inch or so away from the bolt thrust, allowing the bolt thrust to create leverage against the lock. There is much more likelihood of a break action flexing and causing premature brass failure than a falling block.

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
The action will handle it. The brass may be a little thin so you may have extraction issues. Other than that I also thought about doing the exact same thing. Bailey persuaded me to go with regular 450NE loads, but was open to doing it according to my idea. I changed the project completly to 450NE droplock.

If you want 2300-2400 fps. Why not go with 500/416NE (410 grain@2400fps) instead?

Do you have your rifle yet? If so, how does it shoot and is it fast to reload?

As to other chamberings, right now I have a double in 450 NE and a M-70 in 416 Rem. That is probably enough, but BBs rifle has REALLY piqued my interest.

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
This is no different...

However, in the name of peace, I can call this a 450 NE +P if it makes people feel better...

There is a difference.
There is no 450NE +P.

If you want to create such a standard - go through the process.

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
This is no different...

However, in the name of peace, I can call this a 450 NE +P if it makes people feel better...

There is a difference.
There is no 450NE +P.

If you want to create such a standard - go through the process.

Sir,

I mean absolutely no disrespect to you personally.

However, I disagree entirely with your concept of what to call a cartridge that can safely be loaded hotter than it was originally designed. Further, I have no need to convince you of the correctness/value/appropriateness of my idea.

We should just probably leave it at that.

This all comes down to 1) Will Bailey build a rifle in .450 NE in the load that afp would like to have. If so, then what's the issue?
2) Custom rifles are for us all to get what we want, and we pay the price for such. And 3) Remember the .450 has evolved a lot over the past 140 plus years. The original black powder cartridge had a velocity of @1950 and energy @2745. Modern factory loads are at 2150 and 4800 approx.

With the addition of extra recoil I don't see the point of loading to the specs that afp wants, but that's each individuals choice and the choice of Bailey Bradshaw. Maybe afp can take the .450 to a new standard?

I personally don't see the purpose of the AI cartridges over the originals, but to each their own. All these custom rifle builders need work, and wildcats afford that to them.

So far in my limited experience with my 450 NE, it seems that rounds slower than regulation velocity can shoot well but rounds faster than regulation velocity cross. This means you my have to accept a slow velocity to keep the barrels from crossing. If the rifle is regulated at 2300 fps, then if a different bullet needs to go slower you still are at least 2100-2200 fps. With the nominal 2150 fps of a 450 NE, if the bullet will only shoot well at 1900-1950 fps then we're back to the bad performance of the defective 458 Win loads that made a lot of hunters hate the 458 Win.

quote:

Originally posted by afp:

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
This is no different...

However, in the name of peace, I can call this a 450 NE +P if it makes people feel better...

There is a difference.
There is no 450NE +P.

If you want to create such a standard - go through the process.

Sir,

I mean absolutely no disrespect to you personally.

However, I disagree entirely with your concept of what to call a cartridge that can safely be loaded hotter than it was originally designed. Further, I have no need to convince you of the correctness/value/appropriateness of my idea.

We should just probably leave it at that.

Exactly. I don't understand tinkerer's objections. Wildcatters develop new cartridges all the time and give them whatever names the wildcatter desires. If you want to develop a 450NE +P, more power to you ... pun intended!!

Personally however, I have a better idea for you! 500NE!!

Now of course that may seem a bit of a flippant response at first glance, and I'll admit to making an occasional "smart ass" statement in good fun, but let me explain just a bit. Now of course, I understand your interest is more in Bailey's rifle design, but speaking from performance alone, Sam Rose did a bit of work with lighter than nominal bullet weights with a few NE rounds. In particular, he helped develop the 475gr bullet in .510, CEB Safari Raptor, designed for the 500NE. There is also a matching BBW#13 Solid at 510grs but I haven't shot that one as much.

With the 475gr bullet, I've got that puppy humming along at 2,415fps in my 500NE, developing 6,300 ft/lbs of energy as compared to 5,800 ft/lbs for the normal weight 570gr bullet at the nominal 2,150fps. Initially you might think the load would cross but it doesn't. The lighter bullet pushing along at the faster velocity is shooting very well in regards to regulation. So, just some food for thought if your interest is actually in terms of performance and not just Bailey's rifle design.

I think one really needs SEVERAL doubles to fully sort these things out...........

Facts:
1- B. Bradshaw stated to me that he will only build
the Farq SxS in calibers whose brass is rimmed/flanged.
So 458 Lott is not an option for the the Farq SxS.
2- Michael458 has proved that we only need sectional
density of about .280 to perfectly penetrate elephant
skulls IF USING A PROPER BULLET - (CEB, GSC, and the
like). In a .458 diameter bullet that's just 410 grains!
Simply use that weight or go as high as 450 grains and
use 2250 - 2400 velocity without any concerns at all.
3- You're going into a very modern D/R go on and use
a very modern bullet too! I'm with you 100%.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by afp:

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
This is no different...

However, in the name of peace, I can call this a 450 NE +P if it makes people feel better...

There is a difference.
There is no 450NE +P.

If you want to create such a standard - go through the process.

Sir,

I mean absolutely no disrespect to you personally.

However, I disagree entirely with your concept of what to call a cartridge that can safely be loaded hotter than it was originally designed. Further, I have no need to convince you of the correctness/value/appropriateness of my idea.

We should just probably leave it at that.

Exactly. I don't understand tinkerer's objections. Wildcatters develop new cartridges all the time and give them whatever names the wildcatter desires. If you want to develop a 450NE +P, more power to you ... pun intended!!

Personally however, I have a better idea for you! 500NE!!

Now of course that may seem a bit of a flippant response at first glance, and I'll admit to making an occasional "smart ass" statement in good fun, but let me explain just a bit. Now of course, I understand your interest is more in Bailey's rifle design, but speaking from performance alone, Sam Rose did a bit of work with lighter than nominal bullet weights with a few NE rounds. In particular, he helped develop the 475gr bullet in .510, CEB Safari Raptor, designed for the 500NE. There is also a matching BBW#13 Solid at 510grs but I haven't shot that one as much.

With the 475gr bullet, I've got that puppy humming along at 2,415fps in my 500NE, developing 6,300 ft/lbs of energy as compared to 5,800 ft/lbs for the normal weight 570gr bullet at the nominal 2,150fps. Initially you might think the load would cross but it doesn't. The lighter bullet pushing along at the faster velocity is shooting very well in regards to regulation. So, just some food for thought if your interest is actually in terms of performance and not just Bailey's rifle design.

Todd,

The advantages do not seem the same for 450 NE caliber.The performance you are getting is pretty impressive.
A 475grn bullet is about 80% of the weight of the original correct?

Im trying a 400 grn bullet out of my 450NE (about 80%) and I'm crossing at 2150fps (96grns IMR 4831).

Does you or any one have suggestions how to duplicate similar performance Tod is getting (in perspective), maybe a faster powder?

The shots are crossing High, not low.

Bullet energy is governed by two main factors... VELOCITY and WEIGHT, both of which are governed by pressure.

Energy increases at the SQUARE of the velocity and DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to the bullet weight.

This means that increasing/decreasing the velocity has a larger affect on energy than increasing/decreasing the bullet weight... BUT reducing the bullet weight AND increasing the velocity just MIGHT increase the final energy...depending.

So the question is HOW can I increase the final energy AND keep the double regulated, using a specific caliber case, keeping within the pressure limits of the cartridge/rifle by futzing around with bullet weight and velocity.

Many of the discussions/arguments get into the apples/oranges milieu because one is thinking/talking SD, another BC and another something entirely different.

I see no problem in developing your own load, for YOUR rifle, with YOUR bullet weight, irregardless of what others might think. It only takes a bit of number crunching or perusing of ballistics tables to see any advantage/disadvantage.

200 fs additional velo in a 450 NE with a 400 gr bullet means an additional 800 ft lbs of energy.

Is it needed?

800 ft lbs of energy is a substantial increase in energy...it might be wasted if the bullet blows through your game animal and deposits that energy in an termite hill 200 yds down range or it could be the difference between a quick kill and a wounded, pissed off buff intent on mashing the thing that caused the pain.

Basically, we have Michael458 and CEB to thank for showing us that particular fact with all his work on bullet and cartridge design. I also think many missed the actual significance.

This game we play might not be brain surgery but it is very complicated one once you step beyond the mundane world of "grab a reloading manual, pick a bullet/powder and go reload".

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
I am only a year into double rifles and still learning a lot. I could describe the chain of reasoning I went through to arrive at this idea, but only a fellow INTJ would be remotely interested so I'll skip that.

Bottom line is I just came across these modern falling block doubles and I think they are a GREAT idea. Assuming Bailey's rifle is as strong as a #1 or close to it, a 450 NE double on his action should easily outperform a Lott. The 450 NE has a case capacity of 136 grains of water. The Lott has 110 and the 460 Wby 141. I could easily see having one of these rifles in 450 NE and having it regulated for a 500 grainer at 2300 fps. The rifle ought to be faster to reload than a traditional ejector double as well.

Of course, all the above is just theory in my mind at present. Has anyone used one of these rifles? Are they faster to reload than a break-open double? Are they strong enough to step up the velocity over a traditional double?

THe best way to find out what Bailey will or won't do is pick up the phone and ask.MY money says no non rimed cases.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Double BC:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by afp:

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:

quote:

Originally posted by afp:
This is no different...

However, in the name of peace, I can call this a 450 NE +P if it makes people feel better...

There is a difference.
There is no 450NE +P.

If you want to create such a standard - go through the process.

Sir,

I mean absolutely no disrespect to you personally.

However, I disagree entirely with your concept of what to call a cartridge that can safely be loaded hotter than it was originally designed. Further, I have no need to convince you of the correctness/value/appropriateness of my idea.

We should just probably leave it at that.

Exactly. I don't understand tinkerer's objections. Wildcatters develop new cartridges all the time and give them whatever names the wildcatter desires. If you want to develop a 450NE +P, more power to you ... pun intended!!

Personally however, I have a better idea for you! 500NE!!

Now of course that may seem a bit of a flippant response at first glance, and I'll admit to making an occasional "smart ass" statement in good fun, but let me explain just a bit. Now of course, I understand your interest is more in Bailey's rifle design, but speaking from performance alone, Sam Rose did a bit of work with lighter than nominal bullet weights with a few NE rounds. In particular, he helped develop the 475gr bullet in .510, CEB Safari Raptor, designed for the 500NE. There is also a matching BBW#13 Solid at 510grs but I haven't shot that one as much.

With the 475gr bullet, I've got that puppy humming along at 2,415fps in my 500NE, developing 6,300 ft/lbs of energy as compared to 5,800 ft/lbs for the normal weight 570gr bullet at the nominal 2,150fps. Initially you might think the load would cross but it doesn't. The lighter bullet pushing along at the faster velocity is shooting very well in regards to regulation. So, just some food for thought if your interest is actually in terms of performance and not just Bailey's rifle design.

Todd,

The advantages do not seem the same for 450 NE caliber.The performance you are getting is pretty impressive.
A 475grn bullet is about 80% of the weight of the original correct?

Im trying a 400 grn bullet out of my 450NE (about 80%) and I'm crossing at 2150fps (96grns IMR 4831).

Does you or any one have suggestions how to duplicate similar performance Tod is getting (in perspective), maybe a faster powder?

The shots are crossing High, not low.

The performance I'm getting with the 500NE as stated above is from Michael458 and SRose's work with lighter CEB bullets. I'm just using the load Michael and Sam developed. Sam would be a better source than I on regulation issues with these lighter bullet weights at increased velocity. I think he has done the same with several calibers to date. Don't know about the 450NE however. Send them a PM and see what they have to say.

Can you really get 2300 fps with a .450? If you can, perhaps you can explain to me how I can get it out of a .458 Win. Mag. I'd really like the help.

I asked Bailey to build a falling block double in 450 Rigby (non flanged). I was looking for 500 grain @ 2600fps. He only builds for flanged cartridges...

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Can you really get 2300 fps with a .450? If you can, perhaps you can explain to me how I can get it out of a .458 Win. Mag. I'd really like the help.

The 458 Win mag doesn't have enough case capacity. The 450 NE has almost as much case capacity as a 460 Wby.

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
I asked Bailey to build a falling block double in 450 Rigby (non flanged). I was looking for 500 grain @ 2600fps. He only builds for flanged cartridges...

Bailey is wise indeed

quote:

Bailey is wise indeed

Are we talking about Bailey Bradshaw?

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:

quote:

Bailey is wise indeed

Are we talking about Bailey Bradshaw?

When it comes to guns I am not very rational I must admidt Bailey Bradshaw is wiser than I am at least when it comes to building guns!

Must say they look absolutely awesome. I'd be very keen on one if I could warrant another rifle!
Perhaps a 450 No.2 loaded up a touch would perfect and the brass maybe a bit more robust?
I'd also probably want a bit more for a Back-up rifle. Penetration for going away shots on elephant and Buffalo..

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
Bradshaw Farquharson SxS Rifle

IIRC Bailey mentioned he would be open to build larger than 500 NE rifles but his website says up to 500NE
I wanted a 577 BB gun when I got rich.

My view of double rifles is more traditional.

Doubles were made for the following reasons-
To reliably deliver two large caliber bullets at moderate pressure, from a rimmed case with ease of extraction, in tropical heat at close range from a weapon that can be quickly reloaded.
You got two chances to settle matters!

The last thing you need in a double rifle is a sticky, hard to extract, fired case or two. Stuck cases produce some of the world's most expensive clubs!

Double rifles are all about regulation. It doesn't matter the velocity. It is all about putting two, or several rounds, in the same target!

Double rifles are "re-regulated" all the time.
I know of one that was originally a 450/400 3 inch ( tropical loading) "55 Cord" rifle. It was re-regulated to a "60 Cord" equivalent. The case still extracted easily!

I own doubles that are not chambered in a rimmed cartridge. They work just fine.

However when I bottle off into the bush after something that can stomp or chew me, I promise you I won't be carrying one of those! Most likely the rifle I will carry will be chambered in a flanged cartridge with a name ending in the words, "Nitro Express".

I own a 9.3X74R which by any stretch of the imagination is not a moderate pressure round. Case design does contribute to ease of extraction with that round.

However it's your money, your rifle and your ass. You ought to be able to have whatever you can afford and think is cool! If you want to squeeze more FPS out a round, go for it!

The rifle that Bailey is building for me will be a small rimmed cartridge. I'm looking forward to shooting it!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
IIRC Bailey mentioned he would be open to build larger than 500 NE rifles but his website says up to 500NE
I wanted a 577 BB gun when I got rich.

Bradshaw WILL, IN FACT, build you a 577 NE and/or 600 NE SxS
Farquharson. He told me he has an order for a 600. I don't know
if he'll build anything larger.

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
IIRC Bailey mentioned he would be open to build larger than 500 NE rifles but his website says up to 500NE
I wanted a 577 BB gun when I got rich.

Bradshaw WILL, IN FACT, build you a 577 NE and/or 600 NE SxS
Farquharson. He told me he has an order for a 600. I don't know
if he'll build anything larger.

Good to hear. I hope someone posts pics and specs here.
Now I just have to get that 20k

Rusty,

You make some points worthy of discussion and I have time. Though Southern Oregon has desert dry summers and really nice falls, we have rainy springs, it is a rainy day, and I am most certainly a "fair weather" load developer............

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
My view of double rifles is more traditional. Doubles were made for the following reasons-
To reliably deliver two large caliber bullets at moderate pressure, from a rimmed case with ease of extraction, in tropical heat at close range from a weapon that can be quickly reloaded.
You got two chances to settle matters!

The last thing you need in a double rifle is a sticky, hard to extract, fired case or two. Stuck cases produce some of the world's most expensive clubs!

A falling block double is not a traditional double.

Now if we are talking a traditional break action double, like my Sabatti, I am with you 100% on the velocity and pressure issue. A 480-500 grain bullet at 2100-2150 fps works fine on any animal on the planet, and a 450 NE can achieve those velocities without exceeding the nominal 44,000 PSI limit a modern break action double should observe.

However, a modern falling block action is as strong as a modern bolt rifle. Either can handle 65,000 PSI without sticky extraction. Unless you have a too tight or too large chamber, sticky extraction in a bolt doesn't usually show up until in excess of 65,000 PSI.

We can push a 500 grain bullet at 2300 fps from a 450 NE at 51,000 PSI. While too much for a break action rifle, a modern falling block will easily handle this pressure and not come close to generating sticky extraction.

quote:

Double rifles are all about regulation. It doesn't matter the velocity. It is all about putting two, or several rounds, in the same target!

I agree regulation is critical, but velocity is indeed important. A 500 grain bullet with an MV of 1900 fps has a poor reputation for performance on DG. The 458 Win earned it's bad reputation when a bunch of factory ammo that barely achieved that velocity. In fact, that issue is why the 458 Lott was developed. A 500 grainer at 2100-2300 fps has an excellent reputation on DG. We also know too fast can be bad, as was shown to us by the original 460 Wby loadings.

In a fallingblock, what velocity would one get out of the big 450neNo2 case pushing 500gr without getting into limitations of the case?

Norsk, I don't think you'll run into limitation on case size....the 450 #2 is a monster case.