I looked at both in Reno. I have minimal knowledge on this matter. My impression is that the VC is a much better gun on many levels. For no more than the price difference is, i can't imagine buying a Merkel.

Can any one enlighten me on this matter?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I looked at both in Reno. I have minimal knowledge on this matter. My impression is that the VC is a much better gun on many levels. For no more than the price difference is, i can't imagine buying a Merkel.

Can any one enlighten me on this matter?

This will be good ...

We should just combine this, the Sab threads and all the others into one !!! LOL

.

The Merkels are crap. Or the VC's are crap. Or vice versa.

Larry how could you, LOL, let the fun and dung start.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The Merkels are crap. Or the VC's are crap. Or vice versa.

Would you care to elaborate.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
We should just combine this, the Sab threads and all the others into one !!! LOL

.

A quote from my friend Tsquare2: "The same is true with the Chapuis. I don't want anything coming out of France except wine and Cognac!"

I knew we could count on you Lane!

I think that Jorge looked into these (and other doubles) quite carefully before deciding. Hopefully he will chip in here.
Peter.

Guys, I am not throwing rocks at the Merkel. As I said before, I know little about this. I am trying to understand.

With the VC, I see:
1-infinitely better recoil pad
2- superior sights
3- stronger action
4-custom fitted
5-better looking

The only down side I see is that it is from France and to get one fitted the gun is not immediately available.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Guys, I am not throwing rocks at the Merkel. As I said before, I know little about this. I am trying to understand.

With the VC, I see:
1-infinitely better recoil pad
2- superior sights
3- stronger action
4-custom fitted
5-better looking

The only down side I see is that it is from France and to get one fitted the gun is not immediately available.

With the VC, I see:
1-infinitely better recoil pad
- $20 - $40 at most.

2- superior sights - not a huge amount of $
and can be changed on the Merkel if needed.

3- stronger action - says who ? Are you saying the Merkel isn't strong ?
Hell, Merkel have been doing Shotguns and Rifle's on the action for how many years ?
That's a bit like saying the A&D Action is not strong - yet it is one of the most copied in the world.

4-custom fitted - how is it custom fitted if it's made in France ? You answered it yourself in the last sentance "The only down side I see is that it is from France and to get one fitted the gun is not immediately available."

Get anyone to measure you up and send the dimensions to Merkel and they will make the stock to suit.

5-better looking - in the eye of the beholder !!!

.

Larry,

What do you see as the price difference?

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
3- stronger action - says who ? Are you saying the Merkel isn't strong ?
Hell, Merkel have been doing Shotguns and Rifle's on the action for how many years ?
That's a bit like saying the A&D Action is not strong - yet it is one of the most copied in the world.

I don't believe Larry is stating that the Merkel action is weak but the unique triple bite of the VC is stronger hands down.

I like the VC's in the lighter calibers. They seem to be well made, trim and handle well (I have not shot one). I think the VC's in the heavier calibers tend to look and feel "blocky". They lose that trim, fast handling feel. You start to feel the cross over about at the .470 and then up. To me, the look and feel of the Heym .500 (or the Merkel for that matter) versus the VC .500 is superior. I am not commenting on dependability or accuracy, more on the handling charateristics of the rifles.

The guys from VC measured me. Someone told me Merkel doesn't do this. The French thing has more with me objecting to certain French actions or lack thereof than anything about the gun.

When I buy one, I don't want to have to send it off to be modified. Last time I modified a Heym I was roundly crocuses here on AR for doing so. I was also told that this hurt the value of the gun.

The srength issue is based upon my inspection and the comments of various people that know more than me.

Yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

The price difference is hard to say . Less than $2000.

Finally I have some PMs agreeing with my original comments.

would somebody please measure the bearing surface of the bites on their Merkel,and like wise if somebody can do so on a VC as well,it would be interesting to see if there is a greater bearing area with the three bites.

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
3- stronger action - says who ? Are you saying the Merkel isn't strong ?
Hell, Merkel have been doing Shotguns and Rifle's on the action for how many years ?
That's a bit like saying the A&D Action is not strong - yet it is one of the most copied in the world.

I don't believe Larry is stating that the Merkel action is weak but the unique triple bite of the VC is stronger hands down.

From the way this conversation is going the same rules apply to the Sabbati cluster. No matter what anyone says, presents as facts and or opinion, will matter to some. Suffice to say here goes:

I've been looking at doubles for a long time. I've known George Caswell at Champlin's since he used to deal with the Gun Shop I use to hang out in as a teen ager in Miami called National Gun Traders. He sold me a Rigby bolt action rifle in 76 for 600 bucks! Point being, I think I can make a decent assessment.

I've beaten the Sabbati horse to death so I'll not do so here, but at DSC I looked hard at Krieghoffs and Merkels again (I've been looking at them a long time) and of course Heyms, Blasers and of course VCs. There is no question in my mind VCs look like a nicer gun, then again they also cost more. As to fitting, Merkel does not do this, at least not that I've ever been able to find out. You go to a retail store that has them and you buy it. At DSC, the VC guys were there and they took close to thirty minutes to ensure they looked at how I threw up a gun, length of pull, the way my cheek rested on the stock and where it rested on the stock and if it was in line with the sights, and maybe that adds to the price difference.
When I was finished the gentleman from France and Ken had all my measurements, wood preference (wood costs a LOT more than 40 bucks for an upgrade), sights (there is another place where VCs offer a very nice night/day front sight arrangement), action design (straight like the Brits or curved), CCH or coin finished, level of engraving (all the Merkels I've ever handled particularly those with animals look like "stick man" figures), cheekpiece style, barrel length, scope mounts or not, leaf or no leaf sights, and so forth, basically an "A La Carte" process. I never experienced this level of service of choices with Merkels and if they do, they certainly did not offer it at DSC or SCI in all the years I've been going.
I can's speak as to action strengths but I can speak to regulation and targets and there again the VCs were superior at least at all the targets I've looked at for both makes. Understanding tastes are involved and we all have different tastes, the VC is an order of magnitude classier looking than the Merkel (if you doubt this, look at the photos some of our friends have posted here of VCs then compare yourself)

I am very blessed that I've reached a point in my life that with my retirement plus my salary with the company I am with now, I can afford some of the better things in life and I looked hard at both guns in question plus Krieghoffs and even Heyms and Searcys and if I really liked one of these over the other, I would have bought one of those instead. Maybe it's the fact VCs are trying to break into the American market (they've been around for two centuries) or maybe the labor in France is cheaper than Germany, but from a value perspective (and again I can't speak to action strenghts), the VC is a much better buy. Lastly and this will destroy my credibility with some if not all of you, I looked at Merkels at Cabelas for nine grand (NIB) and (gasp) Sabbatis for 5500 and I just didn't think the Merkels were worth the extra four G's. Oh yes since this thread IS about Merkels and VCs and we've already seen VC regulation targets, maybe one of you Merkel owners can post pictures and targets of your rifles or better yet, some here own both Merkels and VCs so I am sure their opinions will carry much more weight than mine, after all, I'm one of those idiots that bought a Sabbati. jorge

The sights on my merkel were crap, just not good for tired eyes, My new rifle had a crack in the toe of the stock that had been poorly repaired. I do not remember it haveing a recoil pad ( when I installed one the poorly repaired crack went away). It does shoot very well 2 1/2 in groups at 75 yards and is still very tight, not even broken in yet.The pistol grip is a little thin for me and slides in my hand because of nerve damage, I can't bring my self to sell it because it shoots so well. Every one I have spoken to who had a merkel and sold them ,were unhappy that the did because they shot so good.

I have not seen a VC first hand but the look like a good deal.

JD

I got to unpack, wipe down, and assemble every gun in that VC booth in Reno, got to spend hours with those twenty-something guns and rifles and had a great time with Ken while doing it.

To hell with politics, these are firearms and there's absolutely nothing wrong with anything there at the VC booth.
Furthermore, that's only a fraction of the styles and configurations the VC factory can offer, those three tables of hardware were just a sample.

At the price range, I can't think of anywhere else you can get that kind of freedom in the design, build, and finish of your new gun.
They're really hard to beat.

This and they've been doing it for how many hundreds of years..?



Cheers
Tinker

I think maybe the US distributor needs to change what he brings in.

The one early on in Aust
1. We had better sights fitted
2. None of our Merkel's came with a Recoil pad
3. We could put dimensions in and be done with it.


BTW, I think the Merkel's can be very barrel heavy and
as one friend described it, like 2 railway sleepers welded together !!!
I didn't disagree with him ! LOL


I have no problems with the V-C's - or the Sabs for that matter over the issues I have mentioned.

I would even buy a Sabatti if I needed one.

I just sometimes play the devil's advocate when people are looking through rose coloured glasses.


Now, what does a V-C sell for in the US ?

.

quote:

Now, what does a V-C sell for in the US ?

I have an Azur Luxe .470NE, one like mine runs about $16K to $18K USD depending on options and upgrades. I believe the base model doubles start at about $12K.

The point that Merkel sights are crap and Verney Carron's are better is hard to justify as both use Recknagel.
Back on the VC vs Merkel, I have owned a Merkel (and was happy with it) but now buying a new customised VC (couldn't live without a heavy cal Double).

Don't know to much about Merkels and never explored buying one once I discovered they would not make one for a lefty with the left trigger in front.
Do know VC (Kebco) gave me immediate responses and attention to detail and ordered my "being built" 450/400 Safari standard to my exact specifications from rear sights, night sight, barrel length, lefty stock custom fitted, lefty triggers, fitted scope base, ejectors, and delivered to my FFL dealer for less money than anyone else would.
And I would bet 10-1 it anchors a nice bull moose for me this coming September

Well from what has been posted on here and PM'd me, there is a big price difference between the
V-C and Merkel.

And all the Merkel's I've know in Aust and what I have seen on forums seem to shoot, including my 2 very well.

quote:

.470 or .500 that I can sell for around $8300 each. I don't think you can get a VC for anywhere near that price, but I could be wrong.

VC o/u 375-450-400 is 6500

VC double starts around 12,5 up to 500 nitro
VC 577 18k
vc 600 nitro 22 k

I own a Merkel sidelock; I looked at the VCs in Dallas and thought they were great rifles. I think they both are great rifles.

I'm no expert, but let's talk about this 'stronger action' point.

Yes, the VCs have that unique triple underlug, but have no traditional third bite on top of the action. I've also read the third bite is not really necessary with modern steels, but then again how many double rifle makers used or still use them? Doll's heads, Greener cross bolts, rising bites, and so on are very common on doubles, in fact I'd venture to say that some sort of third bite is used more often than not.

So is the VC action stronger than a Merkel? Again, I'm not a gunsmith, engineer, or metalurgist. But personally, I doubt that the VC action is 'stronger' than an Anson & Deeley type action with a Greener crossbolt.

quote:

So is the VC action stronger than a Merkel? Again, I'm not a gunsmith, engineer, or metalurgist. But personally, I doubt that the VC action is 'stronger' than an Anson & Deeley type action with a Greener crossbolt.

No its not both cnc cut steel actions of the same steel quality.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
And no, Merkel does not switch the trigger set up for lefties, but can install left hand wood.

As far as price, I can sell you a base model Merkel 140-2.1 with Arabesque engraving for about $8500-$8900 new w/ ejectors. I have a couple of 140-2.2 engraved guns with extractors in .470 or .500 that I can sell for around $8300 each. I don't think you can get a VC for anywhere near that price, but I could be wrong.
Mike

If you can ever get them to make a true lefty for that price consider me in. I need a .500 to round out my set.
Great prices, you right handed folks should take advantage and order one.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

quote:

So is the VC action stronger than a Merkel? Again, I'm not a gunsmith, engineer, or metalurgist. But personally, I doubt that the VC action is 'stronger' than an Anson & Deeley type action with a Greener crossbolt.

No its not both cnc cut steel actions of the same steel quality.

NOTICE: This post has been edited because of mistakes in the text needed to be corrected after they were brought to my attention by 5seventy, and Cane Rat!

VC vs. Merkel is a thing that is comparing apples to oranges in the design side of the question. They can’t be compared that way.

The designs are so different it is hard to compare them but it can be done if one keeps an open mind and have both in front of them at the same time.

At the DRSS get together/ Wild boar hunt right after the DSC show this year we had several VC rifles and Merkels to compare side by side for design inspection. That was even topped off by shooting both on the same range in several different chamberings.

Both the VC, and the Merkel actions are castings ( VC says forgings ) finished shapes done on CNC machines, and both final fitted by very skilled hands. Before anyone gets into the casting vs. forgings, today it is a no-brainer, one is not better than the other, with the only real difference being the time consuming machining to shape the forging, while the modern casting being just as good but requiring less machining! Both are good but the casting cuts cost not only to the maker, but to the customer as well.

The Merkel is the traditional A&D type action with the addition of side clips and Greener cross bolt to back up the double bite under lugs in an inline pair of under lumps, the older ones in Shoe-lump barrel sets, and the newer ones in mono-block barrel sets.

The VC on the other hand is a Shoelump multiple under lump, cut in the bottom of the shoelump base to fit into matching slots in the action. There is not third fastener on the top, but the three under lugs fitting into three matching slots which gives eight tightly fitted matching surfaces on the sides of the under lumps. This is a unique set-up that, IMO, makes the fact that one more fastener unnecessary! When you get down to brass tacks, the Merkel is strong enough with out a third fastener as well, but the side clips, and the Greener cross bolt just makes a strong rifle even stronger.

Do I think the VC is stronger than a Merkel? NO I do not! However I don’t think the Merkel is stronger than the VC. Again IMO, both are stronger than they have to be for the chamberings they are using, at least up to the 500NE. The 500NE is as far as these two brands can be compared because the Merkel doesn’t make a larger chambering.

Both brands handled well for me though they may not for others, that is a personal thing, because we are not clones and everyone mounts a rifle differently.

As to looks that too is a personal thing as well, and the difference only exists in the eye of the beholder. The VC is a nice looking rifle, and IMO is a quality rifle, and if it is what you want I say go for it. I have several double rifles, but I seem to always go to my Merkels when it comes time to hunt. This is because they fit me well, and they shoot where I point them every time! I don’t have a VC rifle but that could change in future, but it will not REPLACE one of my Merkels!

Edited Jan 29/11 for corrections in text



.......................................................

My vote is to keep the money in the country and buy a Searcy! Butch is a great guy, builds great guns that shoot great (you've all seen my targets). No offense but I buy AMERICAN when ever possible. Yes, I love the historical nostalgia of British Doubles but I want a real gun that I can shoot and enjoy not put on a wall and look at. He has decided to build the field grade again and has added some perks... Just my 2 cent's.

Brad

I looked at Searcys, even fired a couple of them courtesy of our own JudgeG. Lovely rifles and SUPERB regulation. That said, the VC and of course the Merkel give you every bit as good of a rifle for thousands less and I like the lines and looks of the VCs better. I like value for my hard earned money, to do otherwise would be well, un-American, unless of course if you're a democrap

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
VC vs. Merkel is a thing that is comparing apples to oranges in the design side of the question. They can’t be compared that way.

Bingo! It is the same thing that Will was trying to say from the very beginning -any "V's" thread always ends up with blooded noses:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The Merkels are crap. Or the VC's are crap. Or vice versa.

been around for some time & I learned to listen and pay attention when Will speaks - same old point as Mac stated...it takes some wide spectruum, but as susal spot on...Proffesor

quote:

With the VC, I see:
1-infinitely better recoil pad
2- superior sights
3- stronger action

Looks like a good Pachmyer rifle pad to me???

quote:

I don't believe Larry is stating that the Merkel action is weak but the unique triple bite of the VC is stronger hands down.

I disgree...every gunsmith I have talked to...and all of the books I have read have said:

The Merkel Action: Anson & Deeley Box lock with Greener Cross-bolt and side-clips and bottom bite...is one of if not the strongest action.

quote:

To me, the look and feel of the Heym .500 (or the Merkel for that matter) versus the VC .500 is superior. I am not commenting on dependability or accuracy, more on the handling charateristics of the rifles.

Agreed!

And this wood is pretty to me at least.

quote:

No its not both cnc cut steel actions of the same steel quality

Don't know about VC steel...but...Germany is the place of great steel. All upper end surgical instruments are made in Germany...ALL of them. Never heard of anything made in Germany being made of poor steel!

No need to go that way (Merkel has proved it long ago)...after all I have picked up here on AR (or in fact just to oppose it) I'd pick up a blaser S2 in .30R Blaser and do the Big 4 with it (it is possible and not a big deal realy), just to prove...erm...uhm...what?

quote:

The Merkel Action: Anson & Deeley Box lock with Greener Cross-bolt and side-clips and bottom bite...is one of if not the strongest action.

Which just happens to be one if not THE most copied actions in the world.


If the extra lugs are so good, why isn't the Chapuis copied ? Because there is no need to ?

No point in reinventing the wheel if the wheel is fine in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

The Merkel Action: Anson & Deeley Box lock with Greener Cross-bolt and side-clips and bottom bite...is one of if not the strongest action.

Which just happens to be one if not THE most copied actions in the world.


If the extra lugs are so good, why isn't the Chapuis copied ? Because there is no need to ?

No point in reinventing the wheel if the wheel is fine in the first place.

Well,

I suspect you don't mean either of those statements.
Of the first statement:
"Most copied" might be because it is the best way to do somthing or might be because it is easier to do than another way.

As to the second thought:
If that were true, then "good enough" would always be good enough and there would be no innovation in any area - such as the steel that firearms are made from. I'd say that good things can and should always be improved upon.

BTW...those are pics of my Merkel 140-2 .500 NE.

I like it. And Jorge...compare that wood to the pics you posted.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
...every gunsmith I have talked to...and all of the books I have read have said:

The Merkel Action: Anson & Deeley Box lock with Greener Cross-bolt and side-clips and bottom bite...is one of if not the strongest action.

And unless someone has done a side by side comparison of "strength" in an evidence-based manner, this kind of statement + $2.00 will get you a hot dog at a corner stand in NYC - and that's about it.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Don't know about VC steel...but...Germany is the place of great steel. All upper end surgical instruments are made in Germany...ALL of them. Never heard of anything made in Germany being made of poor steel!

I agree that Germany has been a source of properly treated and graded steel. My dad's Puma knife has kept an incredible edge for many decades.

On the other hand, your statement about surgical instruments is 100% incorrect - at least those intended for human surgery - I can't speak to veterinary equipment.

As far as poor quality German steel, I agree that i too have seen nothing poor about what is used in knives and my one Merkel, BUT if you have taken apart the number of German-built high-end cars that I have, then you would know that statement can not be supported by the evidence.

Ow yeah - if we stay biased...here in EU it was allways a simple rule that applies: "If you need a shotgun - get an Italian, Spanish, French one - however if you are looking for a rifle get German, Austrian or English one - it applies still here in EU - *check the 2nd hand market.