quote:

470 NE(Merkel

I have .500 NE Merkel. I have shot a .470 Merkel. They feel about the same me.

I have nothing against a VC other than they are French.

I just think Merkels are good equipment!

OR how about this gents; Since I've now become the 450NE "reloading expert" why not get the VC in the same caliber?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Many good comments here. Again, I was not attempting to paint the Merkel's in a negative light. Before I buy, i wanted to seek some opinions ofnthose with much more knowledge than me.

I have a few more questions as follows:

1- If I read correctly, the general consesus is to have a place for a scope built into the rifle, even if I do not plan for a scope. Is that correct.

2- Given that my 55 year old eyes aren't what they used to be, I am thinking of having a fiber optic front sight. Opinions?

3- I really want the 500 NE. However as some of you may recall, I used to have a Heym. The first time, I shot it, it dislocated my middle finger and my entire hand turned black. I am concerned about recoil.

Given that I have shot a 470 NE(Merkel) many times with out problem and a 458 Lott many times without problem, do you think there will be any issue with a proper weight gun fitted to me?

Thanks

Larry,

I like the option of a scope on a double, especially with my 50+ year old eyes. Recknagel swing out mounts are fast, dependable, and retains zero. I have my doubts about putting a scope on a 500 or bigger, but certainly on a .375 up to maybe .450/.470. Definitely on a .450/400.

I'm with you on the fiber optic front bead. From now on, I'm putting one on all my doubles. I need all the help I can get. There are some screw-in beads that can be easily replaced if it is broken. Just keep some spares in your gun case. The fiber optic part needs to be hooded by a dark metal to give a proper siholette in bright backgrounds.

As to caliber, in the Merkels, the .450/400 is easy for all day shooting. the .470 at @ 11.2 lbs. to me is just slightly more comfortable than the .500 at @ 10.9 lbs. I can shoot either just fine. But my favorite is the .450/400.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
OR how about this gents; Since I've now become the 450NE "reloading expert" why not get the VC in the same caliber?

Because you'll say "I shoulda ..." referring to another caliber.

Besides, no real difference in recoil between your 450NE Sabatti and your custom made V-C 500NE made to your weight specifications.

Larry, I sent my K gun back to Krieghoff to have them replace the front sight with a fiber optic sight. It is not a "bead" so I am not sure what is meant by that. But it does make sight acquisition much quicker. Just make sure that the gun still shoots to the same POA. If not, you might have to change the rear sight.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Many good comments here. Again, I was not attempting to paint the Merkel's in a negative light. Before I buy, i wanted to seek some opinions ofnthose with much more knowledge than me.

I have a few more questions as follows:

1- If I read correctly, the general consesus is to have a place for a scope built into the rifle, even if I do not plan for a scope. Is that correct.

2- Given that my 55 year old eyes aren't what they used to be, I am thinking of having a fiber optic front sight. Opinions?

3- I really want the 500 NE. However as some of you may recall, I used to have a Heym. The first time, I shot it, it dislocated my middle finger and my entire hand turned black. I am concerned about recoil.

Given that I have shot a 470 NE(Merkel) many times with out problem and a 458 Lott many times without problem, do you think there will be any issue with a proper weight gun fitted to me?

Thanks

Larry,

I like the option of a scope on a double, especially with my 50+ year old eyes. Recknagel swing out mounts are fast, dependable, and retains zero. I have my doubts about putting a scope on a 500 or bigger, but certainly on a .375 up to maybe .450/.470. Definitely on a .450/400.

I'm with you on the fiber optic front bead. From now on, I'm putting one on all my doubles. I need all the help I can get. There are some screw-in beads that can be easily replaced if it is broken. Just keep some spares in your gun case. The fiber optic part needs to be hooded by a dark metal to give a proper siholette in bright backgrounds.

As to caliber, in the Merkels, the .450/400 is easy for all day shooting. the .470 at @ 11.2 lbs. to me is just slightly more comfortable than the .500 at @ 10.9 lbs. I can shoot either just fine. But my favorite is the .450/400.

Mike

Looking on the Recknagel website yesterday, I noticed they offer a "partridge" fiber optic front sight that should perfectly replace any of the newer Merkel front sights and give a visual that appears as a bead instead of a post sight.

Hope that makes sense. I'll check with Herbert at Merkel on Monday and see if they have them in stock. If so I'll have mine changed out soon, get some pictures posted here for all to see.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
The fiber optic part needs to be hooded by a dark metal to give a proper siholette in bright backgrounds.

Mike

Mike I think the fiber-optics insert needs to be open to the direct sunlight to make the bead portion appear as “LIGHTED”!

Hooded front fiber optic sight hoods that I have seen have openings in the top and sides of the hood to let in daylight for the light gathering body of the sight! In this case the hood is simply to protect the sight from damage, and is a good idea IMO!

Someone on AR milled the top of the Merkel factory front sight, and installed the fiber-optics bead shaft in the factory front sight!

quote:

Mike I think the fiber-optics insert needs to be open to the direct sunlight to make the bead portion appear as “LIGHTED”!

Absolutely! It is the sunlight that makes the sight "bright". This is not new technology guys. Archers and skeet/sporting clays shooters have been using these for years (don't know about trap!).
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
The fiber optic part needs to be hooded by a dark metal to give a proper siholette in bright backgrounds.

Mike

Mike I think the fiber-optics insert needs to be open to the direct sunlight to make the bead portion appear as “LIGHTED”!

Hooded front fiber optic sight hoods that I have seen have openings in the top and sides of the hood to let in daylight for the light gathering body of the sight! In this case the hood is simply to protect the sight from damage, and is a good idea IMO!

Someone on AR milled the top of the Merkel factory front sight, and installed the fiber-optics bead shaft in the factory front sight!

The Recknagel "partridge" front sight in the fiber optic version is open on top, but does have the metal on the sides to give it a sihloette. It should remain bright and still be good when looking into a bright target area.

What do you think?

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

The Recknagel "partridge" front sight in the fiber optic version is open on top, but does have the metal on the sides to give it a sihloette. It should remain bright and still be good when looking into a bright target area.

What do you think?

Mike

Sounds well designed.

.

I bought some fiber optics that clip onto the rib of some of shotguns . No matter the light conditions, I can see much better. I think the same would be true on a double rifle. I do, however, wonder if the recoil would break them.

I have a fiber optic on my 458 Lott. I love it.

Larry my skeet gun has a fiber optic front sight. In fact I have two or three of them, different colors. They are magnetic and I KNOW they would not stand the recoil ie. fall off!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I bought some fiber optics that clip onto the rib of some of shotguns . No matter the light conditions, I can see much better. I think the same would be true on a double rifle. I do, however, wonder if the recoil would break them.

I have a fiber optic on my 458 Lott. I love it.

Larry,

I would never consider a magnetic fiber optic on a high powered rifle. I'm sure your Lott is not magnetic. It has to replace the factory front sight and be durable.

The Lott is not magnetic. Only the shotguns.

I am with you about the sights on a rifle. The one on the Lott screws down.

I like those sights you can get for the K-guns....sort of a "skeleton" rear and a FO front. You can see it on their site.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

Not to start more s__t, but did the french learn to build quality guns in the 1940's?

As to the recoil pad or lack of it on my Merks, I needed to shorten the stocks a bit and was able to fit them for me. Then able top add the pad of my choice.

I would love top have a new VC or even a Sab, but If I'm going to have to to down size, I'll keep my Merks as they shoot well and serve the job they were intended for.

Our Merkels' here came withour recoil pads
so they could be specifically set up for the person's correct LOP.

Nothing worse than not leaving enough wood to play with.

quote:

Not to start more s__t, but did the french learn to build quality guns in the 1940's?

Saint-Entienne has been a gunmaking center for hundreds of years and was a center for sword and knifemaking since the Middle Ages before that. The French state arsenal has also been located there since 1764.

From Wiki...

"Saint-Étienne was already a well-known place for production of swords and knives since the Middle Ages. In 1665, a Royal Arms Depot was created in Paris to store military weapons made in Saint-Étienne.

The Royal Arms Manufacture was created in 1764 under the supervision of the General Inspector of the Royal Arms Manufacture of Charleville.

12,000 weapons were being produced each year when French Revolution happened. The city was renamed Armsville during the revolutionary period and production increased to meet demand of the revolutionary army fighting at the borders against the Royalists supported by European royal families.

The French Empire saw the production increase threefold to meet the needs of the Napoleonic Army in its conquest of Europe.

In 1838, the annual production was well over 30,000 firearms. In 1864, the modern factory was built, new steam-powered machines were installed and the first military standardized bolt action rifle, the Chassepot, was produced from 1866 on, then the Gras rifle after 1874.

The MAS began manufacturing the MAC-designed Lebel rifle in 1886.

The MAS designed and manufactured the family of French 7.5 mm rifles, from the MAS 36 to the FSA MAS 49/56, then later the current standard issue FAMAS."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...e_Saint-%C3%89tienne

Maybe a better question is: Did the French learn to shoot after the 40's? Cause the did know how in the 40's!

I can tell you they sure know how to make double rifles! My VC and other VC's I've seen stand up VERY well to other "modern" doubles at way more than their price range range.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

VC has been around a lot longer than Merkel if one wants to get technical, Merkel has not been in the DR business very long and when compared side by side (pardon the pun) to a Merkel, there is no comparison. jorge

quote:

VC has been around a lot longer than Merkel if one wants to get technical, Merkel has not been in the DR business very long and when compared side by side (pardon the pun) to a Merkel, there is no comparison. jorge

Is that fact or Personal opinion ??

quote:

Originally posted by GarBy:
I can tell you they sure know how to make double rifles! My VC and other VC's I've seen stand up VERY well to other "modern" doubles at way more than their price range range.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

I am mightily pleased with mine.

Anyone thinks the French can't make guns spend ten minutes watching this.

We know the French can make guns, even though some of them are abortions of guns.

The thing is, they are better at making White Flags and using them !!!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
The thing is, they are better at making White Flags and using them !!!

After two world wars, in both of which they deported themselves courageously and admirably while suffering horrific losses, that may be understandable.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

quote:

VC has been around a lot longer than Merkel if one wants to get technical, Merkel has not been in the DR business very long and when compared side by side (pardon the pun) to a Merkel, there is no comparison. jorge

Is that fact or Personal opinion ??

Go figure:

http://www.altejagdwaffen.de/W...Suhl.169.0.html?&L=1

Great link to the area of Suhl and their long tradition of gun making but how long has MERKEL been around and when did they start making doubles?

Well, it says on the Merkel USA Web site

http://www.merkel-usa.com/

Suhl, 1898

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Great link to the area of Suhl and their long tradition of gun making but how long has MERKEL been around and when did they start making doubles?

The town of Saul, Germany, has been making shoulder arms as far back as the 16th century. In the year 1898 the Merkel brothers founded a gun factory, which was first to manufacture over under shotguns in an industrial way. The Merkel factory grew rapidly and in 1914 they introduced the side-by-side shotguns. I can't find the date of their first double rifle, but I'm sure it was not long after the shotguns were started in 1914 that rifles were made as well.

Many Americans are not real familiar with Merkel products because after WWII, and before the political events of 1989 Merkel products were banned from import into the USA because they were behind the cold war iron curtain. Many Merkel shotguns and rifles were bought in Europe, and brought back home by travelers from the 1920s and 1930s, and GIs stationed in Europe after WWII and are now considered valuable collector items.

Merkel Bros are connected to Suhl the same way as VC is to Saint-Etienne - in both towns craftman’s workshops turned into manufactories in 19th century and later into gun factories.

So Merkels started their firm in 1898 and VC in 1830...

BTW - Merkels invented O/U double called "Bock" pretty soon and registered it as a trademark etc.

All I am saying one would rise many eyebrows in Fatherland stating there is no comparison there

The thing is mouse, does it really matter when they started.

It's what they make NOW that this pissing contest is about.


At least they (Merkel and V-C) both work as they should LOL

(Tin foil hat on, expecting incoming )

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
Merkel Bros are connected to Suhl the same way as VC is to Saint-Etienne - in both towns craftman’s workshops turned into manufactories in 19th century and later into gun factories.

So Merkels started their firm in 1898 and VC in 1830...

BTW - Merkels invented O/U double called "Bock" pretty soon and registered it as a trademark etc.

All I am saying one would rise many eyebrows in Fatherland stating there is no comparison there

Thanks! that's what I was looking for and in the big scheme of things irrelevant, just like the sophomoric French jokes. Both great guns, but as I stated previously, VCs are a cut above but then again, the do cost more. It's a good thing targets, ejectors or doubling aren't valid measures of effectiveness or for that matter "work as they should". So far my POS Sabbati hasn't doubled, had ejectors fly off into the bush and it actually groups.....jorge

quote:

Anyone thinks the French can't make guns spend ten minutes watching this.

All I said was in WWII they had a hard time shooting them!

While the Germans did quite well!

The Germans ALWAYS do well!

Traditionally...If you wanted something well engineered made out of steel...Germany was a go to place. Where as if you wanted a good wine and cheese...look to France.

I am sure VC's are good guns. But Merkels are good guns as well.

If you have Merkel "build" you a gun...and not buy an off the shelf variety...I bet they would cost about the same, fit the same. Just would not have carry something around made in France...the nation of pu$$!3's and back-stabbers!

Well ledvm now you've started some sh_t. I can say this because I'm part German (very small part). The Germans love to start shit and kick ass. Last 2 times they were beat down after the rest of the world ganged up and beat them back. The French ,normally pacifists, can make a nice weapon for other than the French to use. They are definately artists. I just can't see owning a gun from a country that has done so much to disrespect the USA.

quote:

a country that has done so much to disrespect the USA.

Huh? Seems to me that the most effective way of "disrespecting the USA" is to kill it's citizens. That, the Germans seems to have done very well! (Note that I still refuse to accept that "disrespect" is a legitimate English word.)
Peter.

quote:

So is the VC action stronger than a Merkel? Again, I'm not a gunsmith, engineer, or metalurgist. But personally, I doubt that the VC action is 'stronger' than an Anson & Deeley type action with a Greener crossbolt.

The VC's action design appears to be an attempt to mitigate shooting the gun off the face.

I do applaud their innovative approach - looks like it might work.

However, the fact that the Merkel has a Greener type cross bolt guarantees that that design will hold up under serious use for quite a long time.

Most of us are aware of the fact that there really is nothing new under the sun when it comes to Double rifle design.

Merkel was wise to use a design that has proven successful for over 100 years.

The jury is out on the VC action as it has not had enough time to prove itself out - or at least I am not aware that it has.

I'd bet on the Merkel being the more durable of the two.

Hyem does the same thing as well as do many others. VC is the only one I've seen that does their method - and I doubt it has anything to do with patents.

JW

Jeff

The Chapuis has a multiple hooks, how does the VC compare to this ?


And do the Chapuis shoot off the face because of their design ?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Jeff

The Chapuis has a multiple hooks, how does the VC compare to this ?


And do the Chapuis shoot off the face because of their design ?

+1 Paul Demas worked for Chapuis before striking out on his own.