quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
BUT if you have taken apart the number of German-built high-end cars that I have, then you would know that statement can not be supported by the evidence.

I thought some German high end cars were now made overseas ?

.

quote:

Both the VC, and the Merkel actions are castings finished shapes done on CNC machines

According to VC and Ken Bush VC actions are forged not cast.

So guys, IF I decide on the 450-400 over the 500, should I spend the extra coin and have the claw mounts installed?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
So guys, IF I decide on the 450-400 over the 500, should I spend the extra coin and have the claw mounts installed?

IMHO, Yes.

If you are going to that much trouble to get the gun made for you, might as well do it when it is made and not use them than have them done later.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
So guys, IF I decide on the 450-400 over the 500, should I spend the extra coin and have the claw mounts installed?

IMO yes.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
I thought some German high end cars were now made overseas ?

.

Perhaps that is true now, but when I was racing them, all German and made in Germany. In fact, two of mine were produced for the German market and I had them shipped over as opposed to being built for the American market.

A unanimous "yes" from the mob down under so far!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
A unanimous "yes" from the mob down under so far!

Add me to the list of people who say "Do it now rather than later". Do it right the first time and you will never regret it

let's put it this way. I don't even think they sell any VC's in Sweden.

Merkel

quote:

And unless someone has done a side by side comparison of "strength" in an evidence-based manner, this kind of statement + $2.00 will get you a hot dog at a corner stand in NYC - and that's about it.

Agreed!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

And unless someone has done a side by side comparison of "strength" in an evidence-based manner, this kind of statement + $2.00 will get you a hot dog at a corner stand in NYC - and that's about it.

Agreed!

Lane,

Off topic here, but just reading your tag line. We've got a guy here in TN we think alot of, and my vote is for Sen. Bob Corker for President. He is a sane, level-headed businessman, a visionary man, and a great family man. Check him out.

I still drool over PSmith's Merkel.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

And unless someone has done a side by side comparison of "strength" in an evidence-based manner, this kind of statement + $2.00 will get you a hot dog at a corner stand in NYC - and that's about it.

Agreed!

Lane,

Off topic here, but just reading your tag line. We've got a guy here in TN we think alot of, and my vote is for Sen. Bob Corker for President. He is a sane, level-headed businessman, a visionary man, and a great family man. Check him out.

I still drool over PSmith's Merkel.

Mike

I like Bob Corker. I have followed his philosophy. Did not know he was throwing his hat in the ring!

quote:

On the other hand, your statement about surgical instruments is 100% incorrect - at least those intended for human surgery - I can't speak to veterinary equipment.

All surgical instruments are made in the same places...the good ones come from Germany.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

And unless someone has done a side by side comparison of "strength" in an evidence-based manner, this kind of statement + $2.00 will get you a hot dog at a corner stand in NYC - and that's about it.

Agreed!

Lane,

Off topic here, but just reading your tag line. We've got a guy here in TN we think alot of, and my vote is for Sen. Bob Corker for President. He is a sane, level-headed businessman, a visionary man, and a great family man. Check him out.

I still drool over PSmith's Merkel.

Mike

I like Bob Corker. I have followed his philosophy. Did not know he was throwing his hat in the ring!

What I was trying to say is that we are pulling for him to get in, if not the next election, at least the following one. He is a good man, level headed, a great businessman, and a visionary.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Both the VC, and the Merkel actions are castings finished shapes done on CNC machines

According to VC and Ken Bush VC actions are forged not cast.

That's true, VC says they're forged, and here is something else that needs checking.

quote:

the four under lugs fitting into four matching slots which gives eight tightly fitted matching surfaces on the sides of the under lumps.

I thought the VC uses a "Triple Lump" system, meaning 3 lumps not 4.

quote:

What I was trying to say is that we are pulling for him to get in, if not the next election, at least the following one. He is a good man, level headed, a great businessman, and a visionary.

He better get in this time or else he'll have to wait 8 years to try again...if you get my drift.

see below

Personally I think both Merkel and VC would be very good DR's.
I just wish that Merkel had stayed with their original shoe lump system rather than going to monobloc.
Nothing to do with strength, just that the seam at the front of the monobloc looks untidy IMO.
Some monobloc guns are done so well that you can barely notice the seam, but when they stamp all over it in an attempt to hide the join, it just doesn't look good, compared to their old shoe lump models.

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Both the VC, and the Merkel actions are castings finished shapes done on CNC machines

According to VC and Ken Bush VC actions are forged not cast.

That's true, VC says they're forged, and here is something else that needs checking.

quote:

the four under lugs fitting into four matching slots which gives eight tightly fitted matching surfaces on the sides of the under lumps.

I thought the VC uses a "Triple Lump" system, meaning 3 lumps not 4.

You are correct, they have 3 lugs not 4.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Both the VC, and the Merkel actions are castings finished shapes done on CNC machines

According to VC and Ken Bush VC actions are forged not cast.

That's true, VC says they're forged, and here is something else that needs checking.

quote:

the four under lugs fitting into four matching slots which gives eight tightly fitted matching surfaces on the sides of the under lumps.

I thought the VC uses a "Triple Lump" system, meaning 3 lumps not 4.

You are correct, they have 3 lugs not 4,
.

You are both right on the number of lumps being three, and VC may be a forged action body but they certainly do not look like it on the inside! The tops of seperations between the lumps and all inside surfaces not machined have the charicistic pebeled surface of castings, and I believe them to be castings, as did ten or twelve others who examined them down at 4K!

The rifles we were looking at were brand new, and though were for sale, they had to go back to the importer for importer barrel stamping before they could be delivered to a customer
Castings are not a reason for concern today! The technology of steel casting has improved by leaps and bounds in the last 40 years.
Dale Neigard (spelling) was the importer, and who brought them to 4K for a DRSS look over.

In any event what VC advertizes, or wht some one says here is not necessarily fact! Merkel used to advertize their rifles as DIMI-BLOCK barrel sets, and defined Dimi-block as Chopper-lump, which they are not, but were shoelump barrel sets just like Heym. Now they are mono-block!

So what I'm saying here if you haven't inspected the VC rifle personally you simply do not know if they are castings or forged.

quote:

So what I'm saying here if you haven't inspected the VC rifle personally you simply do not know if they are castings or forged.

Mac,

I own one. I will go have a look and report back but I know that Ken Bush checked with the factory at one time when this same point was raised a year or two ago and they told him that no cast parts of any kind were used on any of their doubles.

Andy

Man,

All this talk of V-C doubles and I have the urge to go load some 600 Nitro Express rounds while I wait for mine to be finished!

Just found the following on page 2 of the Verney-Carron catalog.

http://www.verney-carron.us/de...008-DEMAS-GB-web.pdf

"The Azur side by side, created by Paul Demas has a very high strength forged steel receiver (35 NCD 16) ..."

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
So guys, IF I decide on the 450-400 over the 500, should I spend the extra coin and have the claw mounts installed?

Why not just go with the fitted EAW scope base?

Yeah, what I should have said was "whatever scope mounts they offer" Still thinking hard about calibers. The 450/400 is a neat caliber to be sure, but a double at least to my way of thinking is a close in stopper and what better stopper than a 500NE!

There you go George, you've answered your own question.

Despite my own previous recommendation, you must go with the 500NE. You want a "stopper" and for you that means 500NE!

Nuff said!

Now when you go to Africa, you can use your custom-fitted Verney-Carron 500 Nitro Express for the big stuff and your Sabatti 450 Nitro Express for Plains Game. If, while on the PG part of the safari, you are faced with some malefecent DG, you will be secure in the knowledge that your 450NE has enough "oomph" and accuracy to dispatch the interloper with aplomb.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

So what I'm saying here if you haven't inspected the VC rifle personally you simply do not know if they are castings or forged.

Mac,

I own one. I will go have a look and report back but I know that Ken Bush checked with the factory at one time when this same point was raised a year or two ago and they told him that no cast parts of any kind were used on any of their doubles.

Andy

You are most likely right, but the examples I examined definantly had signs of casting inside the action. Tis was most evident along the tops of the seperations in the action body between the barrel lumps! Most of the action has been polished away but the area where the seperators starts to slope towaed the bottom and front of the inside of the action bar!

This was first noticed by either Roskoe, or DirkLawyer, and pointed out to me. The surface was the pebbley surface most often seen in castings.

It really doesn't make any difference in the quality of the steel, and both Merkel, and Verrne Carron are well made strong rifles. Casting or forge simply to acceptable methods of making an action body. Ken Bush checking with VC about the castings means about the same as what Merkel told me about the Dimi-block barrelsets meaning "choppr-lump" was found to be untrue by pictures from Merkel's own factory!

The VC rifles are very nice rifles, and have some very nice features! Whether or not the difference in price between the two,is justified is simply up to the guy shelling out the cash, because they are both good rifles!

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Just found the following on page 2 of the Verney-Carron catalog.

http://www.verney-carron.us/de...008-DEMAS-GB-web.pdf

"The Azur side by side, created by Paul Demas has a very high strength forged steel receiver (35 NCD 16) ..."

CaneRat I stand corrected!

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
There you go George, you've answered your own question.

Despite my own previous recommendation, you must go with the 500NE. You want a "stopper" and for you that means 500NE!

Nuff said!

Now when you go to Africa, you can use your custom-fitted Verney-Carron 500 Nitro Express for the big stuff and your Sabatti 450 Nitro Express for Plains Game. If, while on the PG part of the safari, you are faced with some malefecent DG, you will be secure in the knowledge that your 450NE has enough "oomph" and accuracy to dispatch the interloper with aplomb.

What I need to do is shoot a 500 to see if I can be comfortable with it. So far the Sabbati 450 has not been a problem at all and that is shooting of the bench.

jorge,

I have shot both the .450NE Sabattis and a Merkel .450-.400NE, a Merkel .470NE, and a Merkel .500NE.

The Sabatti's stocks were way too long, ang the guns were too light. Even so, I found the recoil manageable.

All the big-bore Merkels I shot weighed about the same (probably 10-1/4#s to 10-3/4#s), and all the stocks were of appropriate LOP. I found the .450-.400 wonderfully mild and pleasant. I also found that much to my supprise and pleasure, the .500 was very manageable, and not at all painfull. The recoil difference between the .470 and the .500 was barely noticeable.



So from what I understand a .500NE of a appropriate weight (11#s or so) would not have much -if any- more felt recoil than a .450NE would have at 9-1/2 to 10#s. (If I am wrong, please correct me DR guys)



Of course if you want a real stopper, you need a .577NE or .600, and have it made weighing 16 or 18#s. That way you could take me with you on safari to carry it for you, while you carry your .450NE Sabatti!

Jorge

the way you shoot the 450 NE it is well withinn the use for PG as well, get a stopper for the fun of it(500 NE) and learn to shoot it as well as you are shooting the 450 NE and all should be good.

best

peter

P.S it is time to move away from the bench and start to shoot off the sticks and free hand at 25 and 50 yards, remember to grip the barrels with your left hand and pull the gun into your shoulder, using this way to stabelice the gun, now a firm grip with your right hand to control trigger and recoil movement and you are good to go, and when shooting lean into the gun as a aggresive shotgun stance, and you will be good to go in no time.

Jorge,
If you can shoot the .450 OK...then a .500 NE won't be a problem.

Hell...I can shoot mine OK...sure you can do better.

It gives me a slight headache after 10 rounds...but...so does my .458 WM.

wow, quick responses, thanks guys! They say deciding all this stuff is half the fun. I have a month or two to decide and let Ken know. The 450/400 sure does tempt me, but I just can't envision a double for PG work, maybe a 100 yard shot at a buff at most and I just can't warm up to the idea of scoping one. Just not "cricket"

I'll also have to bounce all of this off Ken as well. Again thanks to all of you who've chimed in and sorry for the thread hijack! jorge

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
It gives me a slight headache after 10 rounds...but...so does my .458 WM.

lane maybe it is because of the air resistance of the stetson during recoil

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
wow, quick responses, thanks guys! They say deciding all this stuff is half the fun. I have a month or two to decide and let Ken know. The 450/400 sure does tempt me, but I just can't envision a double for PG work, maybe a 100 yard shot at a buff at most and I just can't warm up to the idea of scoping one. Just not "cricket"

I'll also have to bounce all of this off Ken as well. Again thanks to all of you who've chimed in and sorry for the thread hijack! jorge

Jorge,

If you are seriously considering a .450/.400 you should check out GarBy's VC that he has for sale, immaculate rifle at a great price and no wait. Gary's not too far from you and is a great guy to boot!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I just can't warm up to the idea of scoping one. Just not "cricket"

I'll also have to bounce all of this off Ken as well. Again thanks to all of you who've chimed in and sorry for the thread hijack! jorge

jorge

dont be mislead by the people that says that you shouldent scope a double, it has been done for as long as nitro loadings have been around and even before, it is just a matter of having it done in a way so it wont look as an eyesore, think warne mounts and then quickly forget it

best

peter

I've met Garby at DSC and you are correct, he is a great guy. STill deciding

.450/.00 while a good round...has no more stopping power than a .375 H&H...also a good round...albeit NOT s atopper.

Many good comments here. Again, I was not attempting to paint the Merkel's in a negative light. Before I buy, i wanted to seek some opinions ofnthose with much more knowledge than me.

I have a few more questions as follows:

1- If I read correctly, the general consesus is to have a place for a scope built into the rifle, even if I do not plan for a scope. Is that correct.

2- Given that my 55 year old eyes aren't what they used to be, I am thinking of having a fiber optic front sight. Opinions?

3- I really want the 500 NE. However as some of you may recall, I used to have a Heym. The first time, I shot it, it dislocated my middle finger and my entire hand turned black. I am concerned about recoil.

Given that I have shot a 470 NE(Merkel) many times with out problem and a 458 Lott many times without problem, do you think there will be any issue with a proper weight gun fitted to me?

Thanks

Larry,

If you can shoot a .470NE and a Lott with no problems a properly fitted .500NE should be no problem for you either. Is it possible the LOP on your Heym was too short?

I think a fiber optic front sight would be perfect and you could always swap it out for a traditional one if you wanted to in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Both the VC, and the Merkel actions are castings finished shapes done on CNC machines

According to VC and Ken Bush VC actions are forged not cast.

That's true, VC says they're forged, and here is something else that needs checking.

quote:

the four under lugs fitting into four matching slots which gives eight tightly fitted matching surfaces on the sides of the under lumps.

I thought the VC uses a "Triple Lump" system, meaning 3 lumps not 4.

You guys are correct on both counts, and I edited my post to reflect those mistakes. Though VC says forgings there is some evidence that is not true! However the pebbeled surface inside the action looks like a casting surface, it may be the result of laser reduction of that surface without need for polishing, however.