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Agree 100% | |||
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All these negative and postive comments are pure giberish untill someone here reports back with a hands on range report. I don't see anyone blasting Chapuis UGEX's because they sell for less than 5K. Hell, My Remington SPR 06 is more accurate than my Chapuis 9,3 and it fires every time and only costs $700! Granted the triggers are shit and it looks like hell but still......it works. Give them a chance. They could be the buy of the century or they could be dog shit. But unless you personally shot one....zip it, lol. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I owned a Sabatti O/U slug gun (something I wish was offered here)and like a damn fool sold it to a friend. Quality metal and wood. Dead accurate. | |||
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I agree with Snowwolfe. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Please consider that the Sabatti DRs available at Cabela's currently, will see some changes in the pending shipments due in 2010. As stated, until someone here posts an accurate description of personal experience with these rifles, and their follow-up versions, no opinions mean anything. We must simply wait and see. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Express_Rifles
It's not necessarily sentence structure - it's the lack of punctuation and separation. It makes it difficult to read your comments, that's all. That doesn't make your thoughts undesirable, only tough to understand for the rest of us. Cheers Tinker _________________________________ Self appointed Colonel, DRSS | |||
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Exactly, I wasn't being critical....just having a laugh. Your input is valuable.....but unless I'm alone on this, if I can't read something I won't take the time to try and decode it. | |||
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Too bad a dealer like www.champlinarms.com can't do the world a service and range test a SABATTI THEN HAVE JJ TEAR IT DOWN and report on what he finds. That's what we REALLY need! Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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I can say that I have over 3 thousand rounds through a Chapius9,3x74R with excellent results. Also, all of the 470 Chapuis I have fired have been very accurate. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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You know what, if Sabatti thought they were good guns, they should pay JJ to do it. It would do wonders for the sales. | |||
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Norton, you're not alone on this. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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I got one for the last 2 ½ years in 9.3x74 as a backup gun for cats, mechanical single trigger non ejector works just fine got about 300 rounds fired without problems. Lop was way too short fitted a recoil pad otherwise no drama. Finish is ok, fitting wood to metal good and according to price. Never had to use it on cats only used it once on charging buff and on a couple of pigs. The factory fitted sights are good for quick close shots not for 100 meter target works. For the money I paid for it I am happy. FYI EWA makes scope mounts for this gun and it just a matter of screwing the bases on! Hope that helps | |||
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Agreed with most all posted points. These rifles are hope for some, like myself to own a double rifle in a DG caliber without breaking the bank. My SPR in 06 is no safe queen, in fact since I bought that particular rifle I have laid several of my others aside to give it a chance. It works, it ain't pretty, but it works and I have less than 1K USD in it. I will wait like most others with childlike anticiaption for a good, honest unbiased report of overall quality and reliability. Until then all is speculation as to how bad or good they may possibly be. In the words of one of the great members around here that has seasons behind them, "Patience grasshopper." A school teacher with champagne tastes, and a beer pocket book. | |||
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True Nigel, true. Champlin sells many, many double rifles. If these Sabatti's are fundamentally sound, Champlins and other dealers sure could move them. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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A friend has torn one of these down and looked it over. It's fully CNC made, not much evidence of hand finishing. It's too light for anything over 375 cal. The underlugs are too narrow. There is no third fastener. In his opinion, these guns in 470 or heavier will shoot loose in short order. Final point, this was apparently a special order of 30 or so rifles. The customer failed to pay the bill. Sabatti is dumping the guns on the market to get rid of them. Sorry, folks, there is no such thing as a quality 500NE for $5K. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Well, R G has done us a service with the above post. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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I"ll take them all -- 375 is high pressure, a 470 aint .. Same crap stated about the 45/70 rem/bikail .. i got one .. it works, aint an HH, so what. #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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What caliber rifle did your friend tear down? Did he shoot it? How did it shoot? Do the different caliber rifles have different sized underlugs? Where did your friend buy the rifle at? Really would like to know more about these rifles as I find them to be interesting. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Does anyone know what the stock dimensions are? | |||
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You are right to some extent, but the detractors were right about McDonalds! The mom and pops made far better burgers than the plastic burgers from Micky-D's. SABATTI DOUBLES are CHEAP, not just sold for a low price! There has always been the question of why double rifle cost so much, and to most the answer is that they are simply over priced to be sold to the ultra rich hunter who can afford anything he wants and because of that the makers can get the high price. This is a sour grapes look at something these people do not understand, nothing more. The first example the detractor offers is, why can a small bore double rifle be bought for so much less than the NE doubles? Their take on this is, It takes just as much fine fitting, and skill to make a quality small bore double as it does to make the same quality in a NE double rifle, so why the cost differential? The reason is justifiable because of the way these rifles have to be made. What I mean by this statement is, any product made has an UP FRONT cost to the maker. With most double rifle makers being small in comparison to companies like Remington, and other assembly line type makers of bolt rifles, the inventory has to be built on borrowed money, that requires interest be paid till the product is finished and sold. The very skilled people who build these rifles are not a very large group, and come at a premium, wage wise, and because these rifles require 400 to 800 man hours to complete, with nothing but the 50% deposit to cover the materials, and hand work costs, and interest on the loans, even a plain Jane double rifle that is fitted properly the start up cost for each rifle is high. The company can wait for their profit, but the employees must be paid on a regular basis. The longer the lag between the order, and the delivery, the higher the cost to the maker. So the higher he as to charge for his product to make a decent profit. This is also affected by the customer base for the different products the company makes. All double rifles are expensive when compared to the stamped out Wal-Mart specials we Americans are used to accepting as good products. The customer base for the double rifles made in small chamberings, is much wider than the customer base for the large NE chambered double rifles. Here is the reason for the differential. The small doubles can be made cheaper because they sell off the shelf far faster, and in much larger volume than the NE DGR doubles. Even the OFF THE SHELF NE DGR doubles, move very slowly off the shelf, and the wages have already been paid to the employees, but these rifles didn’t even have the benefit of a 50% deposit to cover materials, and were made from start to finish, and till shipped to customers on borrowed money that continues to cost interest on that money. Where a 9.3X74R, or 8X57JRS double may sit on the shelf for one month, the NE double may sit there for a year. If both small, and large are made to fit the customer then the deposit helps the maker in the beginning but the payroll still has to be made long before the customer gets the rifle and makes final payment. The differential between the large and small is still there because the maker can afford to have the basic work done in the white on the small ones because they can simply be put into the off the shelf line, because of the volume they represent. The NEs are only made when they get enough orders from dealers to justify a run. Double rifles like the SABATTI are cheap because they are cheaply made for the first reason, and the second reason is, the ones being discussed where a special run of below standard quality ordered by someone but the deal fell through, and the rifles were dumped on the market to avoid further interest on their money, and for a fast recovery of some of the production cost, which I suspect wasn’t much. Hence the $4999 price tag. The above examples are for the base off the shelf models, with no decoration, or special features like intercepting sears, cocking indicators, side locks, and chopper-lump barrel sets. Then the price will be considerably higher, because these things cost a lot of extra time to make, and may add as much as $3000 to the price over the base off the shelf rifle. Now we come to the rifles mentioned by a poster above of the rifles in the $30K-120K rifles. These are very special ordered rifles with lots of finely fit mechanical features, and with a lot of very expensive art work, and are not for everyone, nor should they be. The artwork not only takes a long period of work, but very high skill of the engraver and/or inlay work. These things are expensive just like ART of any type. You can go to Wal-Mart and buy a framed printed copy of Monet painting for $20 but what do you have? You have a piece of paper that cost the maker $20 pr 1000 to print, and it was all done by a machine. On the surface just like the Monet copy, the Sabatti looks to the untrained eye, like the real thing, but also like the fake monet, the sabatti is a fake when compared to a quality double rifle, hence the low price. Gentlemen It will cost you $5K or more for a well made bolt rifle that requires far less skill to make than even an off the shelf double rifle. As for the old rifles that cost so much, that is no surprise! Anything that is quality, and old with a limited number of them left, will always sell for a high price. Those old rifles when 10 yrs old were simply 10 yr old used rifles, and were certainly not bringing more than they sold for new, because they were still being made. Now that those rifles are no longer being made by the same people, and of the same quality, and because they are becoming rare, the sell for sometimes 20 or 30 times what they sold for new. I can tell you that the off the shelf rifles made only ten years ago are selling used for more than they sold for new, and when they are 50 to 90 yrs old, the ones left, that have been taken care of, will sell for much higher than anyone today thinks. I have base models that I bought new 10 yrs ago that are selling for $2K more used than they sold for new 10 yrs ago. Things like the Baikal doubles can be made for the prices they are sold for, and they will shoot ammo, but what you have is in my opinion are only a starting point for making a real double rifle from them. It amuses me when I hear people say that a hand made double rifle should only cost $10K max while sitting in a $25K bass boat on a trailer behind a $45K pick-up that both will be in the junk yard in 15 yrs, and a $10K double rifle will still be shooting game 100 yrs down the road, and the stamped out Wal-Mart plastic bolt rifles will look like they have been through the rocks behind a horse, because they hold no pride of ownership. ..............  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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More than one person posted the rifles were produced for someone and then the deal fell through. So this brings me to my question. Who originally ordered them? Not picking an arguement, just trying to get the "facts" validated. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Hi Snowwolfe & AR friends, I was planning to visit Sabatti last summer -but other obligations such as spending the summer vacation with my family at the beaches of Tuscany  made that plan impossible...However, I doubt that Mr Sabatti have made those DR for someone on order. In his paper catalouge one can find the rifles, however in other calibers than .470 and .500 N.E.   So, I am just as interested as any one to get proper FIRST hand feedback of a Sabatti .470 or .500 N.E rifle tested at the range. Just wish that Sabatti made a plain case hardened version without the cheap and ugly looking machine engraving... | |||
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+1 and in 450-400 3" Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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I have talked to someone that has handled and shot one of these -- and knows a bit about nice rifles. He indicated that they are very nice, well made and well regulated for the price. I too would welcome a first hand review by someone on the Forum but until then I am prepared to give these the benefit of the doubt -- that they are a decent, functional rifle at an attractive price point. And why shouldn't I give them the benefit of the doubt, Sabatti is not a newcomer to the gun making business and I am betting that if they keep making these and turning them out to retailers that sell them for $5000-6000, you are going to start to see a lot of them. If the retailers had priced these at $8000, there would be far less speculation on the quality would be my guess. Mike | |||
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My experience is largely with SxS shotguns but whenever I read:
followed by "for the price" I run like hell. Oxon Oxon | |||
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Based on the reaction to the first batch to hit the market, seems like a lot of folks were running . . . running to Cabelas. Mike | |||
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At our shop we had an absolute POS High Point pistol we were trying, unsuccessfully, to sell for a whopping $80.00. The standard question was, "For that price, what's wrong with it?" There was nothing wrong with it other than High Point pistols are what they are. One day on a whim, my co-worker removed the price tag and replaced it with one for $120. Pistol walked out the door within two hours. Similar concept? Tom ************************************************** DRSS NRA Life "Learn to ride hard, shoot straight, dance well and so live that you can - if necessary - look any man in the eye and tell him to go to hell!" US Cavalry Manual 1923 | |||
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Exactly. Sometimes people like to overthink things. Mike | |||
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I think the rifle that was torn down was a 500. The person who provided this information is Ken Owen. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Soooooooooooo, maybe they figure to get a couple dozen here and sold at a break-even price, get the client base all wound up, and then raise the price on the second shipment...? I will get to see one at the SHOT Show next month, ask me when I get back. Rich | |||
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Did Ken get a chance to shoot the rifle? My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I am going to the Wheeling, WV Cabella's store today and understand they have on hand these double rifles and am going to give it a looksee. At present do not own a double rifle, soon to change for have committed to a Merkel and will take delivery in March or perhaps earlier. Price I am paying for very slightly used one is just north of the 5k level which to me is a fair deal. However, whatever brand, mfg., design, etc., for a firearm to cost in the $4,000 range or up, there had better not be any problems of any sort, period. If there are problems whether design or craftsmanship, the buyer is being "ripped off" big time. Whether the firearm is double rifle, bolt action, lever action, single shot, whatever, and when the price is in the thousands the damn thing should function properly and be long lived to boot. To spend that much money for a rifle which will not be used but a very small amount of time, relatively speaking, and if there is any doubt in your mind about the quality, logic tells me not to spend your money. Perhaps I am being practical, some would say "cheap," and when I get there today may just take the damn thing out back and shoot it. You would not buy a used car for 5 grand and not drive it would you?? martin | |||
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I have one of the Sabatti doubles in 45/70. I like it a great deal. It is my first breechloading double. I have fired an H&H double in 500 NE, another in 375, and I've done some shooting with a friends 500 NE rifle of unknown origin (a pretty, back action underlever reminiscent of the old CW Andrews.) The Sabatti does not belong in that class. It is a very nice gun. It is regulated well for it's chosen load (Hornady LeverEvolution) and it is tight and clean. The fit and finish on the wood is as good as a Merkel, though the checkering is not as good as it could be. The innards are not as finely finished as some better rifles, but they are also fully functional and assembled well. I believe metallurgy has allowed these rifles to be made plenty strong for their SAAMI spec cartridges. I've shot mine a good deal and there is no sign of loosening or sloppiness in the action. It will not close on a piece of typing paper. I don't know that I'd want to shoot 600 NE in one, because (at least where mine is concerned) they're light. All the hunting I've done in Zambia was with a CZ bolt in 375. It was a heavy gun, and it did a good job of absorbing felt recoil. The Sabatti is lighter, and while it would be good to carry, it needs to be longer (for me) to not beat my face up so bad as I shoot it. My shoulder doesn't get hurt so bad as does my face, I have a perfect cheek weld and after about 25 rounds I have a bruise and my cheekbone is tender. 1" of slip-on recoil pad more or less corrects this, so I'm looking to make the length adjustment permanent and decent looking. I don't know if I'd be comfy taking a 45-70 out to hunt cape buffs. A 500 nitro would make me feel better. If I see one at Cabelas when the next shipment comes in, I will buy it. An awful lot of people put an awful lot of meat on the table with $50 Mossberg shotguns. I grew up doing it, and while i have pretty shotguns now, my old mossy has never failed me and continues to work despite its humble origins. If the Sabatti ends up being the "Mossberg" of the double rifle crew, a good, reliable, but less expensive alternative to the Merkel and Heym and Chapuis, well, it just means people like me will be able to use them. | |||
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Diamonds and doubles.........how are they similar? Simple, the production and price are controlled by the few. The DeBeers owned 99% of the worlds diamond mines and therefore controlled the pricing even though they are not rare or costly to mine (quite the contrary) but did it because they could. Same with the DR builders. Control the supply then charge a lot. Always stating how much effort/cost it takes.......all bullshit. Lean that DR for 40 grand up against my loaded chevy silverado 2500 HD xtend cab 4x4 and then tell me who got robbed! Yea, it may depreciate quicker, but I get a hell of a lot more use out of that truck in 10 years than you will out of that DR in a century. Plus, I get to deduct it against my tax bill.......you do that with your DR? The only ones poo pooing these lower cost DR's are the ones with a vested interest in losing some value in their mercedes class DR because they know the gig is up. Once just one company starts this others will follow.....just like the auto industry. First Datsun now a dozen other car companies chipping away at the big 3. So it goes. | |||
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Woodrow S, A fine gun will always be a fine gun, and not be cheap sorry to tell you sir. There maybe some cheaper doubles come into the market but will they compete with WR, H&H or Purdy-- I dont think so. Sorry Woodrow there is no gig thats up! When H&H brings out there 8,000 dollar royal I'll be first in line. Ed DRSS Member | |||
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I never said they would compete with $100,000 DR's, but for sure they will put a nice dent into the ones selling for $18,000 and under. Hey, I get ya. The same crap was spewed out by the big 3 auto exec's for the past 30 years too. Look at what is happening all around us.....it's everywhere.......Walmart ain't competing with Herrods, but their eating 85% of the other retailers lunches. If Sabbati was to be successful at this...you think there won't be another to try it? It would FORCE others such as Merkel and a few others in that class to lower their prices and would compound upward to an extent........even if it ate at the profit margin. It's economics 101. Survival. And it's real. | |||
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I know about both-- I think the only thing will suffer is quality if some try to get in the game at that price point. Small things will go by the way side then why have a double if the "fine-ness" and some of the beauty is extorted out of it. I've been in Production too long! Ed DRSS Member | |||
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Can't profess to know as much about DR's as most of you...ones I have used have been medium caliber doubles (up to 9.3) on driven hunts in Germany...all German made...all functioned well. However, looking at the number of fine guns stacked up like cord wood at various "emporiums" around this country and Europe, I think the demand for fine guns is definitely in decline. Even in the mid class range....how does Blaser stay in business?.....1000's of guns for sale, page after page on Gunbroker....Merkels are cheaper here in many cases than in Germany (without the tax!!)...I told a friend in Germany that you can buy a new Sauer 202 Lux here in the US for 1300Eu($2000 recently on Gunbroker) and he couldn't believe it. Could be the market right now, but mid price to fine guns are under pressure. Visiting Europe, I see hand made relief engraved, inlaid combination guns "as new" sitting unsold for 25% of replacement cost...names like Retz, Wolf, Adamy, etc. Maybe the DR is a cult unto itself... | |||
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Heard that Cabelas will be in Reno and will be bringing 500NE(2),470NE(2),416(2), and one 450NE in the Sabatti's DRs Might be just a bunch of chewed up grass in a pet bulls intestine, but thought I would let those here know what I was told. DRSS Beretta 45-70 belgian mag Tikka 512S 9.3 x 74R Baikal o/u 30-06 Looking for next one | |||
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Well, these kind of things happen when you have a financial crisis, recession. | |||
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