Caveat Emptor, Re Russ Gould of Canby , Oregon, operating as Network Retailing LLC, doublegunhq, bigfivehq, etc.

I have intended to post this for a long time but these events occurred during our deer season, then we had a death in our immediate family, then Christmas, and other problems. Today I see where Mr. Gould has posted a warning on the Doublegunbbs concerning someone that he feels treated him unfairly. This reminds me that I am overdue in warning others as to how I was treated in a transaction with Russ Gould.
In late October of last year, Mr. Gould had advertised on his website, a used Americase, 2 takedown gun case, with Orvis label, which he described as “excellent condition apart from one rub mark in one barrel compartmentâ€. On October 27, I contacted him by telephone, and agreed to purchase the case at the advertised price of $295 plus $29 shipping costs. On Monday, November 6, Mr. Gould sent me an e-mail which read “I have your payment Ron. Will attend to this first Monâ€. However, Russ Gould did NOT ship the case to me on Monday as he promised. Instead, without consulting me, he used the case which was now legally, morally, and ethically, mine, as a shipping container in which to ship two Westley Richards guns to a customer in California. He probably figured that I would not find this out, except that on Friday, Nov 10, I asked him to confirm that the case had been shipped and to supply a UPS tracking number in case I needed to trace the shipment. His response was “The situation is a little complicated. I shipped a pair of WR 16 ga guns to a customer in CA in that case with a forwarding label addressed to you. He got the guns yesterday so your case should be on its way to you todayâ€. In fact, that case did not leave CA until Monday, exactly a week after Mr. Gould was to have shipped it to me.
When the case finally arrived here, it had been wrapped only in a single layer of brown Kraft paper which was torn to shreds. It had been dropped at least twice, on two of its corners which were battered and full of concrete particles. The rub mark was a half inch square in which the felt lining was completely gone, exposing bare aluminum. There were six other tears in the felt lining, ranging from minor up to two which were ¾†three-cornered tears. There were no keys for the two keyed locks. At some time, the combination lock had been jimmied and it was now not possible to reset the combination. I sent Mr. Gould an e-mail detailing these problems, advising him that I would need to have the case relined, and asking if he would help defray my costs. His only offer was: “Please take a $25 credit toward any future purchase for the inconvenienceâ€. I would have immediately returned the case for a full refund, but I had paid a $97 customs and brokerage fee which was non-refundable. To say that I was extremely pi$$ed off is an understatement and I let Russ Gould know that in no uncertain terms.
Here is some of Russ’s correspondence with me:
1) “I feel that the condition of the case is commensurate with the price. I can’t spend much time on a $300 item. I manage around 2000 items and I spend a lot more time detailing the high dollar stuff than I do on used accessories.
2) “I stand by my description of the case as being in excellent condition. And no, I don’t believe your exaggerated criticism of the case, I think you are just mad as a snake because of the delivery delay and are trying to get something for nothing. I offered you more than TWICE the amount you paid for shipping to settle thatâ€. So, first of all I am a liar. Then I’m looking for something for nothing. Then, the $25 which he offered is more than TWICE the $29 which I paid for shipping. Strange math that Russ uses.
3) “You got a good deal at half the price of a new caseâ€. This is an Americase model 3011. The price of a new one, on their website today, is $421.12. Again, interesting math that Russ uses, where $295 is half of $421!!
4) “I suggest you take the $25 and get on with lifeâ€
5) When I told Mr. Gould that I intended to post this caveat, he told me “And be careful what you say, you may be hearing from my brother who is a lawyer in Toronto if you cross the line.†I guess that Mr. Gould does not understand that even in today’s litigious society, one cannot be sued for speaking the truth.

I telephoned Americase in Texas. They are SUPER people to deal with. They were helpful, polite, and certainly are service-oriented. I highly recommend them. They sold me two new keys, a new combination lock, and enough green felt to reline the case two or three times. I have since gutted and relined the case myself, so I learned two things from this:
A) How to line a case. B) Have no further dealings with Russell Gould.

P.S.: Anything shown above in quotation marks is a direct, verbatim quote, not a paraphrase. I have saved all correspondence in this case as proof of what transpired.

I must confess, I have been less than (favorably) impressed with what mr gould has had to say here.
This just settles the matter of having any dealings with him for me.

Thanks for the warning.

Rich
DRSS

This is the third posting by Mr. Vella in an attempt to smear me. So I have to respond again.

Here is a picture of the case I sold to Mr. Vella.

http://networkretailing.com/jsarrietapr1.jpg

Yes, it's true when I shipped the case, I shipped it via a customer in CA who bought the pair of WR guns from me. This was not very good judgment on my part but I needed a way to get that pair of guns to CA and I didn't have another double case. This did cause a delay, longer than I thought it would, but in any event our terms of sale state the item will be shipped within 10 days of the order being received and I believe we complied with this. In any case, I did apologize to Mr. Vella for that and offered him a store credit for the delay as a goodwill gesture.

From the above description, you would think I shipped Mr. Vella a piece of junk. The picture suggests otherwise. I still believe my description of the case was accurate and my customer in CA concurred with me when I forwarded him Mr. Vella's original emails to me noting multiple tears in the lining etc. I thought perhaps the case had been damaged en route but that was not the case. The guns were cushioned in bubble wrap when I shipped them in this case to CA. So it's highly unlikely that any damage occurred en route.

There was a patch of felt that was worn through in one of the compartments from a receiver rubbing against the felt. That was clearly stated in my description. There may have been some very small imperfections in the felt elsewhere but neither I nor my customer in CA noted any such tears. It was a very nice case when it left here.

Since there was such a large discrepancy between Mr. Vella's description of the case and my and my customer's recollection of it, I admit I didn't believe him, and I still don't. He never sent me a picture of the damage to the interior of the case. I challenge him to post one here. He never informed me of the shipping damage to the exterior of the case, this is the first information I have had regarding that. And if it were damaged in transit, it was insured and I would have been willing to submit a claim to UPS for the exterior damage. (Why would I not be, I paid the insurance.) I could not have claimed interior damage (and UPS would surely not have paid for it); in any case I don't see how there could have been any interior damage in transit as the guns were bubble wrapped from here to CA and then the case was empty from CA to Canada.

I offered to refund Mr. Vella"s money but he refused. Anything we sell can be returned for any reason or no reason, for a refund, except brand new items which can only be returned if we ship the wrong item. (He also scornfully refused my offer of a store credit as a goodwill gesture for the delay..perhaps a clue to his temperament).

Regarding the combination, it's possible it was jammed. I received it set to 0000 and that's the way I shipped it. I opened and closed it several times but I never reset it. However, given the rather large credibility issue here, and the fact that he brought the combination lock up in his second or third tirade, I frankly put this down to the customer being mad at me for the delay.

So, I sincerely believe that what we have here is a combination of a guy who is a. a perfectionist; b. who has a very hot temperament; and c. who is vindictive.

I think he would have relined the case anyway to deal with the rubbed spot. If there were other imperfections, they were an order of magnitude less obvious than this one rub, so much so that I didn't notice any when I cataloged the item. I would guess that 95% of the folks out there wouldn't have bothered to reline it, this case was in better shape than 95% of the used gun cases I have handled.

The tone of Mr. Vella's emails to me was uniformly condescending and vitriolic. Starting with the first one. I believe I kept a civil tone in all me replies to him, regardless.

Perhaps my customer in CA will read this and add his two cents worth. I don't want to disclose his name without his consent.

I think you opened yourself up to this when you did not ship on the Monday that you said you would and then you used the case for your own personal business after you had sold it.

If you had bought a gun from me and I said I would ship it to you on Monday, then I let my buddy take it hunting and asked him to ship it to you (a week after I was supposed to ship it) when he was finished with it, do you think that would be acceptable?

Bad business practice. And now, since you used the case to ship to a third party and had that 3rd party then forward the case, you really have no idea of the condition of the case when it arrived at the true owners address. Heck, your California customer could have messed up the case and then said "wasn't me" and you have no idea.

Your offer of a $25 store credit was very weak. Makes me want to avoid buying from you.

Tim

At the time of sale, it would seem that the case became the buyers property. Using the property of another without their consent is more than bad business practice.

As to the timing of the shipping, I can see where the buyer would get the idea that it would be shipped right away, and that if the item was not to his satisfaction, he would be entitled to a refund for all of his expenses. From Mr. Gould's website under "Policies"

quote:

D. SHIPPING: Goods will normally be shipped by close of business on the third day following receipt of good funds and, in the case of Firearms, of a signed Federal Firearms Licence, by the seller’s choice of carrier, provided that delivery lead times will be comparable to or better than UPS ground service. Goods lost or damaged in transit to the buyer or his agent are the responsibility of the seller and vice versa. In the event of loss or damage en route to the buyer, the seller will at his option either replace the item or NetworkRetailing LLC will refund the full purchase price including outbound shipping to the buyer. Firearms sold to US customers must be shipped to the premises of a Federally Licenced Firearms Dealer unless the buyer is legally permitted to collect the firearm personally (resident of the same state as the seller, or in certain cases of another state).

Even if a refund of the purchase price was offered (which seems to be in dispute), the buyer would still be out $100 - not exactly a full refund.

But when the conversion of the item for one's own purposes is added, it would seem that an extra $100 to keep the buyer happy could be justified by not having to buy another case.

I doubt any statement from the person who bought the WR's is going to help. If he admits he damaged the case, it would potentially make him liable for the damages.

How one runs their own business is their own decision. But I for one was less than impressed when Mr. Gould was offering a "free" book on African hunting in the subject line, only to say in the text that it was free to those booking a safari through him.
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=233101516#233101516

As for the credibility of the parties, I would not doubt Mr. Vella's claims. Mr. Gould notes that he was the rational party, but we had a window into his temperment on this very forum:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=798104765#798104765

The buyer did not believe the item was as advertised. It may well have been just as described when it left the seller, but it seems that one should be responsible for all damage to a buyer's goods when used without the buyer's consent.

Gentlemen, I have no intention of getting into a "Pi$$ing match" over this. I will say a few things. AT NO TIME did Mr. Gould offer a refund other than the $25 credit which I mentioned. My description of the damages to the case is 100% accurate and they were witnessed by several people here. I did not expect "PERFECTION" as he suggests. Oh, and by the way, I still have the invoice in my files, from Americase, for the keys, lock, and felt, for fifty some odd US dollars. Would any reasonable person go to that trouble and expense to justify a lie?. Also, every single word that was exchanged between Mr. Gould and me is saved in "sent items" on my computer. "The truth shall set ye free!". And it's been 3 months, not 6 months as Mr. Gould states above. I gave my valid reasons for the delay and the fact that his posting about someone else's poor treatment of him, reminded me of my tardiness in this matter. If this were a "smear campaign", I would have been at it from the get go!

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
This is the third posting by Mr. Vella in an attempt to smear me. So I have to respond again.


The tone of Mr. Vella's emails to me was uniformly condescending and vitriolic. Starting with the first one. I believe I kept a civil tone in all me replies to him, regardless.

Russ,
a very simple question, did YOU send the case to the buyer of the CASE? Anything other than "yes" means you screwed the pooch. Period.

If you used the man's case to send to a third party, YOU screwed up.

If the third party did a poor job packing the case.. YOU screwed up

that it is "low value" to you in terms of selling dollars doesn't change the material fact that the BUYER expected decent handling.


You have screwed the pooch

jeffe

Wow! I guess I was a lucky customer. I didn't consider it chance either. I bought a Valmet 412 from Russ and had no troubles with the transaction. The 9.3 and 12 ga. barrels were as advertised. (9.3s were new Lothar Walther) The CASE was one Russ upgraded me to, for a more than reasonable price. The action inside the case was encircled with bubble wrap. I have had many problems with Fedex and UPS in the last two years but NONE with Russ Gould. I have no benefits from these comments except they are the truth. That gives me personal satisfaction. Good shooting and God Bless. Packrattusnongratus

It seem's to me that Russ Gould put his own selfish need's ahead of his customer.

If you needed the case, so bad then why did you sell it? Actually, my wife asked this question?

Hey we all make mistakes, but a good business man will make it right. All I'm hearing from your side are childish explanation's for your action's.

Personally, I don't care to deal with people like that - who put their needs/want's above other's.

Russ,
Sorry pal, but that was a shitty thing to do. The guy paid for the case, you should have sent it to him asap. That's your problem that you needed a case for shipment...END of story!!
What pisses me off after reading your response, is that you still somehow feel that you are not wrong, and that it was OK to do what you did...that's the worst part!!

The only thing that you should have done was to admit your mistake, refund him his money, AND let him keep the case!! What you did was that bad, especially with the attitude!

I will add that Ron's post is definetly going to cost you.

Mr Gould
Why, as a policy of good customer relations don't you send the guy 150.00? Write it off as extra shipping insurance on the Westley deal and lesson learned for conversion of property.
I hate store credit, it says "Yeah we screwed up but we aren't giving up your money"

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:

Yes, it's true when I shipped the case, I shipped it via a customer in CA who bought the pair of WR guns from me. This was not very good judgment on my part but I needed a way to get that pair of guns to CA and I didn't have another double case.

So a guy buys a pair of $20K+ guns and you don't think about how you are going to ship them to him? As you said...that was poor judgment. Now use good judgment and make it up to the buyer of the case. As a business man your reputation has got to be worth more than $295. I hope you both work this out.

Regards

This is why I love the internet. Want to piss on the little guy Russ? Not worth your time and effort? How about now?

You owe this man a 100% refund INCLUDING his customs fees.

I have no doubt that Russ will now lose many mutiples of the cost of this case in business which is beautiful.

Wow! What a crappy way to treat a customer! At least he is honest enough to admit he used the case to ship the other rifles, but the underlying arrogance is disturbing.

Mr. Gould has referred to me as ""a combination of a guy who is a . a perfectionist; b. who has a very hot temperament; c. who is vindictive". He says "The tone of Mr. Vella's emails was uniformly condescending and vitriolic". I have posted here my last two emails to this man. You may judge for yourself if his description of me is fair. And what I say below still stands, I am NOT looking for a refund or anything else from Mr. Gould. My only intent was to give fair warning to others. Strange how Mr. Gould felt compelled to post a caveat elsewhere about someone else, yet now is aggrieved that I should do the same about him.



----- Original Message -----
From: Ron VELLA
To: Russell Gould
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: Item # 2381

Mr Gould,
Your response is exactly what I anticipated. You have basically said that I am a liar, when I itemize the problems with this case. A few points:

1) A man with ANY integrity at all, would examine an item closely enough to see all of these defects before advertising it as "excellent condition".XXXXXXXXX, of course, had no interest in the condition of this case when he was the proud new owner of a WR pair!
2) You can add to the list of defects which I sent you, the fact that at some point, somebody jimmied the combination lock and the combination cannot be changed.
3) This is an Americase, model 3011, list price on a new one, on their website, is #421.12, so $295 is a looong way from half price.
4) I've already ordered new keys, a new combination lock, and 3 yards of green baize from Americase with which to have the case relined. I'll eat the cost and chalk it up to a learning experience.
5) You need not worry about me taking advantage of your generous offer of a $25 discount on my next purchase. It would be a frosty Friday in hell before I had any further dealings with you.
6) I have been a member for years of the Doublegun BBS, the Shooting Sportsman BBS, NitroExpress.com, HuntAmerica.com, COPT, and more recently Accurate Reloading. I promise you that once I have properly composed a notice, I intend to post a "Caveat Emptor" on all of these sites re Russell Gould and Network Retailing LLC.

Ronald C. Vella.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ron VELLA
To: Russell Gould
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Item # 2381

I have no interest in getting into a "pissing match" with you over this. Perhaps you didn't understand, I do not want ANYTHING from you. I am NOT looking for something for nothing! Six of my friends have examined this case since it arrived and would be pleased to attest to the veracity of my description. If you like, my brother, who has been a lawyer for 30 years, and lives 3 miles from me, would be glad to examine the case and verify my description. One last thing, mathematics must be taught differently in the RSA than it is in Canada. How else is $295 less than half of $421, and how else is $25 more than TWICE $29?

quote:

It was a very nice case when it left here.

Not the point Russ. The point is how was it shipped from California? Unfortunately you had no control over that but it is your responsibility. According to Ron it was wrapped in a single layer of Kraft paper! Sorry, but it is your responsibility and I am dismayed that you are not seing that fact.
Peter.

Russ,

BigfiveHQ, Doublegunhq, VH2Q, and your business ethics are very scanty.

I called one time to purchace a 458 Ferlach gun form Russ. By the time I was finished talking to him, he talked me out of buying it. Glad he did!

I would'nt hire him as a saleman or customer service person.

505ED

Russ, IMHO, you should have accepted the return of the case and refunded all of Ron's money, including all shipping costs (there and back) and the customs fees.

You are the one who caused this fiasco by your third party shipment and forwarding scheme, not him. You should have made it right.

If this is how you do business, and you have essentially confirmed that it is, then I am grateful to Ron for this posting.

quote:

Yes, it's true when I shipped the case, I shipped it via a customer in CA who bought the pair of WR guns from me. This was not very good judgment on my part but I needed a way to get that pair of guns to CA and I didn't have another double case.

A combination of poor judgement and unethical practice, or worse, misappropriation..............

Russ,
What have you got to say for yourself now??
Did you disappear?

Mr Vella, Thank you for a very informative post.

quote:

ron vella

I must say you handled far better than I would have. If I had bought something and someone else had then used it damaged it or not without my permission I would have been far hotter than you are.

My hat off to you!!!!!

Yes gents, I should have shipped the case directly. I acknowledge that was stupid. The WR's oak and leather case happened to be in CA at the time, at Vern Brinkerhoff's, getting repaired due to UPS damage, just up the road from the guy who bought the WR guns. I couldn't take a chance shipping those two guns in anything other than a proper case. Since I had to ship this Americase out UPS, I just added a leg to the journey.

I own that part of the issue. And I essentially offered to pay for the shipping via the $25 credit (Mr Vella paid $29) to compensate for the delay, which was one week (he received the case exactly two weeks after I got his check).

What I don't believe I own is the damage to the interior of the case. I believed then, and still believe today, that the case arrived in the same condition it left here. Two people in CA, one who was totally neutral, confirmed that. It had a bare spot, that was in the description, and it may have had a scuff or two but it was nicer than 90% of the cases I have handled. I think Mr. Vella was planning to recover it anyway due to the bare spot and was looking for me to pay for that.

The exterior damage didn't come up til yesterday. I wonder why? The case was wrapped in builders underfloor vapor barrier, the stuff they put under hardwood floors. Not kraft paper. I normally ship plastic and aluminum guncases naked, as do most sellers, but in this case I wanted to give it some extra protection since it was a very nice case.

I think Mr. Vella was surprised and unhappy he had to pay duties on the case. He should take that up with the Candadian govt, not me.

Mr. Vella specifically chose NOT to return the case, preferring to keep it. Our policy allows returns within 3 days on all used items. Furthermore, he told me to shove my store credit. He was very unpleasant. He got replacement keys for free from Americase. And while I now believe the combination lock deal was probably real, at the time he had a major credibility issue with me and I thought he was just piling on, esp. since this complaint was added to the list some time later.

Mr Vella was out one week and $50, the amount he paid Americase for the felt to recover the case. He now has a case which is near perfect and enough felt to recover two more cases, according to his posts.

I have offered, on another forum, to up the $25 to $50. In other words, that will leave him with a better case than I sold him, for no additional money. We'll see whether he chooses to accept that.

Manion, you and I crossed swords on another issue, I think it was the Bouchet rifles, get over it.

The 458 Ferlach guy, yes, I talked you out of buying the gun as I didn't think it made sense for you. I think you wanted to rechamber it if I recall.why would you do that to a gun that is essentially mint? Is that dishonest? A dishonest guy would try to grease the sale with BS. Not me.

Packrat, you were a pleasure to deal with sir! I know you stretched to buy that gun and I wish you many years of enjoyment with it. I would like to hear how she shoots. Those Lothar Walther cut-rifled bbls are usually very accurate indeed, more so than 90% of other double rifles.

Wolfgar, I don't remember why you have it in for me. Probably could go back and look but my guess is I called you on some lame posting or other. Don't have time for this petty stuff anyway.

Jeffeoso, still hurting over your lesson in the physics of recoil?

Surprised we haven't heard from that Australian guy Mike or whatever. Come on Mike, say something nasty!

quote:

Since I had to ship this Americase out UPS, I just added a leg to the journey.

I won't comment on any of the rest of this sordid story (its impossible for an observer to know what is the 100% facts, but where there is smoke there is usually fire), but since the quote above is agreed by both parties, I will pile on and say that you should really give your head a shake for this. I am sure you understand already but that was rediculously bad judgement IMHO.

If you had no other alternative, you should have contacted the new owner of the case and run the idea past him first. Maybe the $25 store credit would have been enough, if offered in advance. Personally though, I would have declined as I would not have wanted to risk the potential damage to the case.

I am sure there are a few lessons to learn here.

Canuck

I will only say that store credits off of some future deal suck. If there is no future deal then the seller has really gave nothing and the buyer's estate is out whatever the amount. The buyer shouldn't be forced to do further business just to use up the credit. Maybe there is nothing he wants from the seller!

Two things;
1) The fact that the case had a "BARE" spot was NOT, repeat NOT in Mr. Gould's description of it. His description of the case read, and I quote, "excellent condition apart from one RUB MARK in one barrel compartment. How many reasonable people out there interpret "rub mark" to mean a half inch square of aluminum showing thru the missing felt?
2) Mr. Gould's statement that I was "surprised and unhappy" because I had to pay duty is so ludicrous that it barely warrants comment.I receive dozens of shipments each year from the USA. I have an account with Brownells because I buy so much stuff from them. Any Canadian on this board will tell you that nothing, and I mean nothing, comes into this country without Canada Customs dinging you for duty and taxes. Russell, the more you post, the deeper you dig your hole!

russ,

when you find yourself about seven feet below ground level in the new hole you are digging, and forgot the ladder:
Rule One: STOP DIGGING!!!
Rule Two: STOP DIGGING!!!

As a businessman of more than a week's experience in a niche market, albeit a very profitable one, you had to have learned ONE thing by now...the customer is always right! It is always easier to "make things right" and get the credit with the public than engage in a pissing contest. Especially since it's your living room wall the two of you are pissing on...and the urine is running down onto your carpet.

What you did was questionable, what you are doing now is sheer stupidity; in a business sense of course.
Ron has posted this tale of woe on every bulletin board he frequents, and you can have no good answer. No one will ever know for sure how many thousands, yes, thousands of dollars, this little faux pas will cost you over the next couple years. One thing we do all know, every satisfied customer is one "Atta Boy" to frame and display on the office walls. One public dissatisfied customer is an "Aw Shit" to post on the World Wide Web (did I mention that's what www. means WORLD WIDE WEB?) and one "Aw Shit" completely eviscerates one-thousand "Atta Boys". There are sportsmen and women all over the world who keep track of bad news about businesses so they aren't the second victim.

You still have time to fix this at minimum damage if you hurry...but you have to want to.

Rich
DRSS
careful shopper

Ironic that in a prevoius post Russ says he used your case to ship the firearms to another customer because the case he intended to use was being repaired due to damage by UPS. Yet he says your case could not have been damaged to the extent described by UPS. Why not Russ?

I also find it hard to believe that you said you normally ship cases of this type "naked", I assume you mean with no box or padding or any type of protection. You also said most retailers do. Bullshit. Give us examples.

Lousy service combined with a weak offer of compensation and a lack of accountability.

Sorry you had to go through this Ron, but thanks for the heads up.

Scratch me off as a customer.

Russ, you screwed the pooch on AR.

Gould,

I don't recall "crossing swords" with you. As I recall, I called you on your hysterical rant about people's critical views as being "slander". Now you did cross swords with other members here, ending in your tirade of insults to those who dared to disagree with or challenge you.

I believe you have proven in previous posts and these posts that you have an air of self awarded superiority about you which does not allow you to ever be wrong. And when cornered, you attack the character or intelligence of anyone who gets in your way. That tactic certainly does nothing to support your position, but only distracts readers from focusing on your character, or lack thereof.

Rather than acting like one of character and stepping up and taking responsibility, you choose to abdicate your duties by throwing up a dust cloud of inneundo and hyperbole.

Your posted policy for used items calls for a complete refund for ANY reason at the buyer's choice. It also states that you ship within 3 days of receiving payment, not 10 days. You took someone else's property for your own use without their permission.

A new rifle case would have cost you $400. And you needed a new case to deliver goods to another buyer.

If I were the buyer of the WR shotguns, I would not appreciate you putting me in the position of receiving a rifle case that was misapproiated. And as a seller, one would think that the seller would not wish to expose a customer to becoming a party to such a sticky situation. But hey, you can save your own skin by pulling bodies in front of you to take the bullets.

I have to give Ron a lot of credit for being as restrained as he was and is. And thank him for bringing this issue to light.

A lot of people use the phrase: "there are two sides to every story". In this case, there seems to be only one!
I will not longer frequent your web sites Russ.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

I will not longer frequent your web sites Russ.
Peter.

From this thread and Russie's responses on other posts, I think this is a WISE decision.

Keep up the good "customer service", Russ!!!!!

quote:

You still have time to fix this at minimum damage if you hurry...but you have to want to.

I offered him the full $50 he says he is out on this deal for the new felt etc but he continues to refuse it, just as he refused my original peace offering. This guy doesn't think like you and me. He gets into backup mode and stays there. For months on end.

RCG has a good point. The reason I am 99% sure the interior of the case was not trashed en route to CA is that I cushioned everything in bubble wrap, plus the receivers were secured with double velcro, plus I checked with two folks on the receiving end who couldn't relate to Mr. Vella's description of the case. Mr. Vella could have simply sent me a photo, that would have cleared things up, but he never did. The case that got damaged was an oak and leather fitted case and one of the compartments got knocked out. This case was pretty much bulletproof.

I am not going to respond to Mr. Manion's personal attacks. On his point about refunds, which is a valid one, I confirm we do take stuff back for any reason or no reason (and that happens very seldom) but Mr. Vella made it very clear at the outset that he wanted to keep the case. Instead of sending it back so I could inspect it and refund his money, he wanted me to pay to have it relined. I didn't think that was reasonable. Sorry. He could have returned it and I would have a. refunded his purchase price and b. been able to see the alleged damage first hand, in which case I would have refunded his customs duties as well if it were in fact damaged in transit. But he obviously thought it was good value for money because he kept the case.

To 577, you have already played that card if I recall correctly. You can only play it once by definition.

To Peter, I wasn't aware you did frequent my sites. You obviously haven't bought anything otherwise you would know I stand behind my stuff.

I am not going to respond any further on this BBS. If you guys want more of this thrilling stuff, go over to the doublegunbbs and lap it up. I have made myself clear there.

Russ, I agree that this has gone on long enough. However, on your final point addressd to me, you should note that we have exchanged emails on several occasions when I was interested in purchasing a Valmet/Tikka 412/512 o/u rifle in 9.3x74R. In fact your websites were on my "favorites' list. You are correct, I did not purchase anything from you. However, I did purchase a Tikka 512 SD in 9.3x74R from another source.
Peter.

STOP DIGGING!!!

Rich
DRSS
considered a pretty fair hand with a shovel myself upon occasion

Russ,
No, I don't "Have it in for you", as I do not even know who you are!
My remarks are based on YOUR attitude towards one of your customers.
I think that you should re-read all of these reply's and maybe something will sink in.

Wow,
Russ, my friend, my gut tells me that if you were going to take this advice, you would have taken it by now, but PLEASE, stop digging!

Business 101:NOTHING at this point can salvage this other than a full refund and apology. Nothing. Even (especially) if you sincerely believe you are in the right. It doesn’t make a damn bit of difference and your pride has cost you many orders of magnitude more than fixing this problem would. I do a fair bit of business with a fair number of folks, mostly sight unseen via phone/fax, and credibility is the coin of the realm. If there is any doubt I’m in the wrong, I make it right. Even if I’m not wrong, but the partner’s expectations aren’t met, I do what I can. I always hold out the possibility that I, not being perfect, could indeed be mistaken. Will I be taken advantage of? Yep! Will I prosper MUCH more because the overwhelming majority of people are decent folks who are suitably wary but want to deal with similarly honest folks? Yep, all the way to the bank! Sorry to break the news.

Store credit (regardless of amount!) is less than worthless and indeed an insult with someone you do not, for whatever reason, trust.

I recently fedexed a rifle in a brand new aluminum case to a smith and back while insured for several $10k’s. Fortunately it was bubble wrapped because the case was destroyed enroute. Three corners were missing and several seams were burst. I can not imagine the height required for a drop to cause this.

Just yesterday I received a shipment of ~100lbs of books that were UPS’ed (and insured$$$) in several tightly fitting boxes surrounded by 3†of bubble wrap inside an exterior banded cardboard box. Both the exterior and ALL of the interior boxes were ruptured. Again, I cannot begin to imagine the impact required to produce this type of damage. That is reality today.

Bottom line: You CAN NOT KNOW in what condition your customer received HIS product. And make no mistake, it belonged to him from the second you received his funds. To argue otherwise is fiscal and moral suicide.

Bob

quote:

Surprised we haven't heard from that Australian guy Mike or whatever. Come on Mike, say something nasty!

Fuck off Ya wanker.

Russ, the problem as I see it, is that you have no idea if the gun case was damaged in shipment from the Wes. Richards reciever back to Ron Vella. You did a BIG NO NO by using the case for your own convenience after selling it......period. If you sent a check to Ron for a couple of hundred bucks,to square things, I doubt that he would return it. You do not need to ask his permission to send him $$$. It does not sound like Ron is whining to most of us on the forum. If he refuses to cash the check , please let us know, and I am sure that most people would probably change their mind about Ron and his attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:

quote:

You still have time to fix this at minimum damage if you hurry...but you have to want to.

I offered him the full $50 he says he is out on this deal for the new felt etc but he continues to refuse it, just as he refused my original peace offering.

Let me be blunt

YOU
ARE
AN
IDIOT

Now, that YOU are in backup mode,

You really have shown us all that you feel justified in sending someone else's property along for a ride, to house a sale you made for what, 20K? and you feel annoyed that you got called on it?

STFU and send him a full refund.

jeffe