There are a lot of the newer Sabatti's on Gunbroker,including O/U's,has anyone here come close to one of these guns? anyone bought one of these?has the quality improved?

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me......"

I saw a nice, gently used ejector Sabatti in .470 at a local Cabela's. The bores had not been regulated by Dremel as in the Bad Old Days of Horror.

The new ones come with a guaranteed accuracy, I saw a sxs in 9.3 and the finish was excellent fit was excellent, they may come with a finish similar to the camo process put on shotguns

If I could find one cheap enough, I would buy one as a donor action, stock and fore-end to build a proper and accurate DR with shoe lump barrels, and consign their barrels to the bin.

If anyone sees such a donor DR please let me know.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me......"

Words of wisdom from the Biebster

One gets what one pays for.
Approximately, if a Sabatti retails for $5000, Cabelas would pay 50% of that to cover their profit. That's $2500 and Sabatti in Italy gets even less. Seriously, for a maker to charger 1-2000 for a double rifle, how good can the quality be?
For a low priced double, go with a used rifle that does not have the sour reputation of Sabatti. There is a great Chapui on AR for about 4K, Merkels for 7K, etc. From the Sabatti doubles I have heard of and personally handled and shot, they make a good boat anchor, but not a double rifle of even marginal quality.
My apologies to those that have a good one and swear by it.
Cal

PS.
As Great White sang: Once Bitten Twice Shy

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
"One gets what one pays for"
Cal

As Cal says - that's true!

However, I bought a 500NE from Cabela's last October and I paid less than $4,000 for it - out the door. It had been re-regulated by someone unknown. (I have yet to find out who did it - http://forums.accuratereloadin...311017412#4311017412 ) At that price I thought if it didn't shoot, I'd just have it re-regulated again. I got quotes of $600 - $1000 if it needed that.

From my test shooting it appears to have been re-regulated for Hornady Factory ammo, which it shoots just fine. I've put about 200 rounds through it with various handloads and I've not had a single problem.

All I did was to make an adjustment to the height of the comb for a better fit, and I added some weight as it was a tad light at 9 pounds.http://forums.accuratereloadin...841068412#3841068412

The Factory fit & finish are good and I wouldn't hesitate to use it on anything on the planet.

For me, a 500NE for under $4,000 wasn't really much of a gamble.

Buck:
You received more than you paid for. Congratulations.
Cal

Sabatti bashing never stops, even from those who have never owned one. I have owned and own, three of them; two 450 NEs and one 500. All shoot within 2 inches at 50 yards and I have had no problems with them. Not everyone can afford the high dollar, other makes, nor vintage doubles. I know, that is what bolt actions are for; poor people.

quote:

I know, that is what bolt actions are for; poor people.

No, bolt rifles are for those who realize that in 98% of hunting conditions faced by a hunter (not PH) in Africa, the bolt rifle is a better choice of armament :-)

srose owns one too & is very happy with it.

Sam had a couple of VCs and had issues with them & now shoots mostly a Heym. He also has several other DRs & has shot many thousand rounds including a few elephants.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
"One gets what one pays for"
Cal

As Cal says - that's true!

However, I bought a 500NE from Cabela's last October and I paid less than $4,000 for it - out the door. It had been re-regulated by someone unknown. (I have yet to find out who did it - http://forums.accuratereloadin...311017412#4311017412 ) At that price I thought if it didn't shoot, I'd just have it re-regulated again. I got quotes of $600 - $1000 if it needed that.

From my test shooting it appears to have been re-regulated for Hornady Factory ammo, which it shoots just fine. I've put about 200 rounds through it with various handloads and I've not had a single problem.

All I did was to make an adjustment to the height of the comb for a better fit, and I added some weight as it was a tad light at 9 pounds.http://forums.accuratereloadin...841068412#3841068412

The Factory fit & finish are good and I wouldn't hesitate to use it on anything on the planet.

For me, a 500NE for under $4,000 wasn't really much of a gamble.

It's true to a point. Some suckers and snobs pay far too much for what they get.

Modern manufacturing methods can well dispel the mystique of the overpriced hand-built double rifle, and it's coming.

I'm as reactionary as anyone, but some things change with time. Sabatti is working on this very change and is sorting it all out.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

I know, that is what bolt actions are for; poor people.

No, bolt rifles are for those who realize that in 98% of hunting conditions faced by a hunter (not PH) in Africa, the bolt rifle is a better choice of armament :-)

. . . and doubles are for those that realize that to hunt with a double is to hunt with panache.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

I know, that is what bolt actions are for; poor people.

No, bolt rifles are for those who realize that in 98% of hunting conditions faced by a hunter (not PH) in Africa, the bolt rifle is a better choice of armament :-)

. . . and doubles are for those that realize that to hunt with a double is to hunt with panache.

One barrel or two, Biebs has Blazer panache!
Cal

Here is some information from Wholesale Hunter who currently handles Sabatti DRs.



The Sabatti rifles are now all hand fit and regulated properly in the factory. The issue with the older Sabbatti rifles actually has a lot to do with the contract thay had with Cabela's. Cabela's ordered several hundred guns, and when Sabatti could not fill the orders fast enough (being hand tuned rifles), Cabela's put more pressure on them and insisted they do whatever was necessary to get the rifles completed faster. Sabatti did tell Cabela's they could drill the barrels to regulate them if that is really what Cabela's wanted, as that is an acceptable practice in the European market. Cabela's told them to go ahead with that, so they did.

All current production Sabatti rifles are hand tuned and properly regulated. They shoot 2 1/2" groups at 50 yards guaranteed when using the same factory ammunition with which they were regulated (Hornady Dangerous Game).

I have 2 in 45-70 and both shoot well ..

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
Here is some information from Wholesale Hunter who currently handles Sabatti DRs.



The Sabatti rifles are now all hand fit and regulated properly in the factory. The issue with the older Sabbatti rifles actually has a lot to do with the contract thay had with Cabela's. Cabela's ordered several hundred guns, and when Sabatti could not fill the orders fast enough (being hand tuned rifles), Cabela's put more pressure on them and insisted they do whatever was necessary to get the rifles completed faster. Sabatti did tell Cabela's they could drill the barrels to regulate them if that is really what Cabela's wanted, as that is an acceptable practice in the European market. Cabela's told them to go ahead with that, so they did.

All current production Sabatti rifles are hand tuned and properly regulated. They shoot 2 1/2" groups at 50 yards guaranteed when using the same factory ammunition with which they were regulated (Hornady Dangerous Game).

Eric:
Is what you write facts or what you heard? If this is true, I'd like some documentation for further research. I ask because a mate nearly had a suit with Cabelas over the issue and I've examined a few rifles that were crap--not just the regulation issue but sights and ribs coming unsoldered, for ends coming off, rusting, etc..
Just curious.
Cal

Cal,

This is from Wholesale Hunter rep via e-mail. So it is basically word of mouth. I do not know if the rep was privy to the Cabelas-Sabatti contract or not. Since neither party, Cabelas nor Sabatti, to my knowledge have ever issued a formal statement one way or the other it is hard to say what is the real story.

$6k into this 450 NE. Was regulated to the load of my choice my Aaron Little, and seems to shoot a variety of loads well. I sent it off to be regulated because as it came from the factory, nearly all shots from all loads crossed at 50 yds unless ridiculously slow. I also had Aaron reshape the stock and refinish it. Now if I could find some time to really wring it out.....

Sabattis are made from strong modern chrome moly steel and have okay wood. They are a basic, plain Jane rifle that will do the job as is IF properly regulated. If the new ones are properly regulated they are a good value.

For the Sabbati haters (I too got burned), JJ at Champlin's said they were very well made rifles as far as the steel, action, springs etc.

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
Here is some information from Wholesale Hunter who currently handles Sabatti DRs.



The Sabatti rifles are now all hand fit and regulated properly in the factory. The issue with the older Sabbatti rifles actually has a lot to do with the contract thay had with Cabela's. Cabela's ordered several hundred guns, and when Sabatti could not fill the orders fast enough (being hand tuned rifles), Cabela's put more pressure on them and insisted they do whatever was necessary to get the rifles completed faster. Sabatti did tell Cabela's they could drill the barrels to regulate them if that is really what Cabela's wanted, as that is an acceptable practice in the European market. Cabela's told them to go ahead with that, so they did.

All current production Sabatti rifles are hand tuned and properly regulated. They shoot 2 1/2" groups at 50 yards guaranteed when using the same factory ammunition with which they were regulated (Hornady Dangerous Game).

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

Eric:
Is what you write facts or what you heard? If this is true, I'd like some documentation for further research. I ask because a mate nearly had a suit with Cabelas over the issue and I've examined a few rifles that were crap--not just the regulation issue but sights and ribs coming unsoldered, for ends coming off, rusting, etc..
Just curious.
Cal

I too would like to know if the above is fact or fiction! Like many early on I was tempted to buy one of the Sagbattis and I saw them at the Dallas Safari show but all were already sold or I would have been taken in as well. Since the one I wanted was the 500NE and found it a little on the light side so decided to go with the 450NE once they were available. As it turned out I was glad I didn’ t get a chance till the bad press started.

I hope the fact is that Sabatti has their act together now, no matter whos’ fault it was, and if it turns out to be true I may be in the market again for a 450NE.

The one true fact that can be substantiated is that Aaron Little does top notch work as is evident from the pictures of his re-work on that 450NE Sabatti.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.Got my fingers crossed!

The best thing I can say to do is contact Wholesale Hunter. The are importing/selling Sabatti DR's. They offer a guarantee on performance.

Here is the e-mail they provided to me by JT at Wholesale Hunter


All current production Sabatti rifles are hand tuned and properly regulated. They shoot 2 1/2" groups at 50 yards guaranteed when using the same factory ammunition with which they were regulated (Hornady Dangerous Game).

Thanks,
J.T.
Wholesale Hunter
Customer Service
888-900-4868
support@wholesalehunter.com

Gents,

To make one thing clear. I do not represent Wholesale Hunter and am/will get nothing from them. I hadn't even heard of them until a few days ago.

I have one of the earlier Sabatti's in 450/400 and have been very pleased with it. If they are being made correctly and the importer/manufacturer stands behind them properly I think they are a good option for those so inclined. I feel the same about the new Pedersoli Mk IV in 450 NE 3-1/4". If either gun brings shooters into the DR fold then I am thankful. I fully appreciate there are those who have been burned by the Cabela's Sabatti's, for want of a better term, and understand their disdain for the guns. Understandably, some may not wish to risk it on the more recent production.

From what I have seen and heard thus far I would be willing to buy another Sabatti if I had the funds to do so. The inclination to do so always exists. The heart is willing but the wallet is not.

My intent with these posts is to make others aware of a possible option and hopefully to do so in an objective manner.

Eric

I own several doubles: 1 Merkel, 2 Chapuis, 1 Sabatti. My Sabatti 450 was one of the last sold by Cabelas and does not have the ground muzzles. It shoots well and is my favorite.
I would not hesitate to buy another if I were in the market for a double.

In full disclosure, I must admit that for several reasons I have never really warmed up to the doubles and still prefer to hunt with my bolt actions.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
srose owns one too & is very happy with it.

NO. He is not. Not any longer. He was happy with it initially but has had major issues since. Last I heard from him on the subject, he was doubtful he would ever see it back from the repair shop as it had basically disintegrated from use.

quote:

In full disclosure, I must admit that for several reasons I have never really warmed up to the doubles and still prefer to hunt with my bolt actions.

Blasphemy!
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

In full disclosure, I must admit that for several reasons I have never really warmed up to the doubles and still prefer to hunt with my bolt actions.

Blasphemy!
Cal

Next thing you know, Butch will be telling us he drives a Ford!

Never shot one myself. However, I did see the news one at DSC I think . Compared to my VC, they just were not solid feeling to me. They looked pretty good.

Yes Todd,

I do drive a Ford, but it doesnt make you a bad person. LOL

Ill never know how long the Sabatti or any of my other doubles will last, i just dont plan on shooting them much anymore. If the market were stronger for doubles, id probably sell them. At 68 i dont think i have that many safaris left.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
srose owns one too & is very happy with it.

NO. He is not. Not any longer. He was happy with it initially but has had major issues since. Last I heard from him on the subject, he was doubtful he would ever see it back from the repair shop as it had basically disintegrated from use.

Didn't he use his Sabatti in 500NE for an extensive bullet test where a very large number of rounds were fired?

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:
Yes Todd,

I do drive a Ford, but it doesnt make you a bad person. LOL

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
srose owns one too & is very happy with it.

NO. He is not. Not any longer. He was happy with it initially but has had major issues since. Last I heard from him on the subject, he was doubtful he would ever see it back from the repair shop as it had basically disintegrated from use.

Didn't he use his Sabatti in 500NE for an extensive bullet test where a very large number of rounds were fired?

What's your point? That the "good" Sabatti DRs are only "good" for a few rounds? Some of us actually shoot hundreds of rounds a year in our doubles.

A rifle used for extensive bullet testing likely has much more stress than one used just for hunting, especially with what srose was doing.

Here is the thread where srose mentions his troubles with his Sabatti after 1000+ rounds, as well as several OTHER BRANDS of doubles. These include: Searcy, Chapius, VC, Sabatti, Heym.

Based on his experience, getting a reliable double seems to be more of a lucky happenstance that snobbish brand shopping. The best method, is as with the case with most rifles, is to have a competent gunsmith go through and fix everything the factory messed up and do some enhancing. Then test the hell out of it yourself until you personally are satisfied. I have been doing it this way for many years.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...121040391#1121040391

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
A rifle used for extensive bullet testing likely has much more stress than one used just for hunting, especially with what srose was doing.

Here is the thread where srose mentions his troubles with his Sabatti after 1000+ rounds, as well as several OTHER BRANDS of doubles. These include: Searcy, Chapius, VC, Sabatti, Heym.

Based on his experience, getting a reliable double seems to be more of a lucky happenstance that snobbish brand shopping. The best method, is as with the case with most rifles, is to have a competent gunsmith go through and fix everything the factory messed up and do some enhancing. Then test the hell out of it yourself until you personally are satisfied. I have been doing it this way for many years.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...121040391#1121040391

Big difference. The other doubles Sam mentioned as having issues, had reputable companies standing behind them, ready to make the guns right at their expense. I had an issue with my VC upon initial delivery. Ken and the factory ponied up and settled all expenses associated with repairs. From that point forward, I've probably put close to 1,000 rounds through mine as well at this point, and it's 100%.

Sam had an issue with the SAbatti all but disintegrating from use. Then on top of that, there was no one to stand behind the product. Cabelas didn't want to make it right, the importer didn't want to make it right, and the factory didn't want to make it right. He was concerned it would never be properly repaired. Again, big difference.

I know you like to frame the discussion around "snobs" and such, but that's just not the case. The bottom line is that quality comes at a price. Is there a point of diminishing returns in this regard? I think so. Where does one draw that line? I'd say that's a matter of opinion. Should all of these rifles arrive issue free from the factory? Most definitely. That said, they don't. For the me the line of diminishing returns starts at the point where a company fails to properly correct an issue discovered with one of their products; even more so when it's discovered that there is a large number of their products with the same defect. And the fact that Sabatti attempted to deceive unsuspecting new DR entrants into the market by regulating them with a dremmel tool, has nothing to do with being "snobbish". It has everything to do with a company's ethics, or lack thereof. Me, I don't do business with crackpots ... at least not after they are discovered to be such.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

I know, that is what bolt actions are for; poor people.

No, bolt rifles are for those who realize that in 98% of hunting conditions faced by a hunter (not PH) in Africa, the bolt rifle is a better choice of armament :-)

+1

I don't think I will ever hunt with my double. Wood too nice to scratch up and shoots as accurate as Biebs with a scoped blaser (lucky to hit a oil barrel at 50 yards).

Mike

Thanks Todd.

I guess I was going on old info.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
srose owns one too & is very happy with it.

NO. He is not. Not any longer. He was happy with it initially but has had major issues since. Last I heard from him on the subject, he was doubtful he would ever see it back from the repair shop as it had basically disintegrated from use.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
A rifle used for extensive bullet testing likely has much more stress than one used just for hunting, especially with what srose was doing.

Here is the thread where srose mentions his troubles with his Sabatti after 1000+ rounds, as well as several OTHER BRANDS of doubles. These include: Searcy, Chapius, VC, Sabatti, Heym.

Based on his experience, getting a reliable double seems to be more of a lucky happenstance that snobbish brand shopping. The best method, is as with the case with most rifles, is to have a competent gunsmith go through and fix everything the factory messed up and do some enhancing. Then test the hell out of it yourself until you personally are satisfied. I have been doing it this way for many years.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...121040391#1121040391

Big difference. The other doubles Sam mentioned as having issues, had reputable companies standing behind them, ready to make the guns right at their expense. I had an issue with my VC upon initial delivery. Ken and the factory ponied up and settled all expenses associated with repairs. From that point forward, I've probably put close to 1,000 rounds through mine as well at this point, and it's 100%.

Sam had an issue with the SAbatti all but disintegrating from use. Then on top of that, there was no one to stand behind the product. Cabelas didn't want to make it right, the importer didn't want to make it right, and the factory didn't want to make it right. He was concerned it would never be properly repaired. Again, big difference.

I know you like to frame the discussion around "snobs" and such, but that's just not the case. The bottom line is that quality comes at a price. Is there a point of diminishing returns in this regard? I think so. Where does one draw that line? I'd say that's a matter of opinion. Should all of these rifles arrive issue free from the factory? Most definitely. That said, they don't. For the me the line of diminishing returns starts at the point where a company fails to properly correct an issue discovered with one of their products; even more so when it's discovered that there is a large number of their products with the same defect. And the fact that Sabatti attempted to deceive unsuspecting new DR entrants into the market by regulating them with a dremmel tool, has nothing to do with being "snobbish". It has everything to do with a company's ethics, or lack thereof. Me, I don't do business with crackpots ... at least not after they are discovered to be such.

My issue was your claim of a Sabatti not holding up. We then find out it was after 1000+ rounds of being used as a test mule. The "disentegration" you speak of was simply the barrels coming unsoldered. Yes, that disables the rifle, but so did the other issues srose discussed, where several other much more expensive doubles had significant issues as well. That is certainly not a "big difference." The issue of grinding muzzles for final regulation turned out to be driven by Cabela's, is old news, and is no longer being done--so it's time to move on from that. For years Remington used a very poor trigger design and GM put gas tanks in pickups in a bad location, but those things are no longer issues for Remington and GM.

So why start with a $20,000 rifle when it's supposedly superior quality doesn't guarantee the thing will work right? Buy a $4000-6000 rifle and sent it to a reputable double smith, and you wind with a rifle as reliable and functional as the med and high end doubles for a lot less money. Spending $10-12k more just to be able to send it back to the people who messed it up in the first place is not compelling for me.

My point of diminishing returns starts with what it costs for a donor rifle with a sound action and add to that cost of custom work from someone I trust. ALL factory rifles are suspect, and the fact that so many have issues means MANY manufacturers are "crackpots."

I spent 24 years as a USAF pilot, and as much as anything that taught me to value performance, disdain pretense, and despise BS. I care about what works, not a brand name, and what works is a rifle thoroughly tested by me that was gone through by me or someone I trust.

This is an old argument between you and I that will never be resolved and it's not worth getting crossways over. I bought my Sabatti knowing full well want I was getting and was happy to spend the $1600ish to make it right. Crud, I spend around that after I take a donor M-70 action and have a rifle built.

Not sure what is sadder . . . having to pump $1000-2000 into a Sabatti to make it functional (on mine I had to add some weight, put on a decent recoil pad, rework the triggers and have the solder at the end of the barrel touched up) or buying a $12,000-18,000 double and having issues with it (I have had a bad safety, rough chambers that needed to be polished, regulation issues). I guess at the Sabatti level you sort of expect that some work might be required. At the other end, it makes you wonder about the quality control at some of the larger, more well known modern double rifle manufacturers.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Not sure what is sadder . . . having to pump $1000-2000 into a Sabatti to make it functional (on mine I had to add some weight, put on a decent recoil pad, rework the triggers and have the solder at the end of the barrel touched up) or buying a $12,000-18,000 double and having issues with it (I have had a bad safety, rough chambers that needed to be polished, regulation issues). I guess at the Sabatti level you sort of expect that some work might be required. At the other end, it makes you wonder about the quality control at some of the larger, more well known modern double rifle manufacturers.

Very true. If someone is buying a $15K-$20K gun and there is a expectation that it needs to be first sent to gunsmith something is wrong.

A $300-$400 ruger american is ugly as hell but it performs well and has exceptional accuracy.

For most african hunters a bolt with a good scope will significantly reduce the change of a PH having to use his double.

For me doubles are nice to own for the panache and not much more. I will probably end up getting another in 375 but will hunt with bolts.

Mike