I know I'm probably going to upset some people with this thread but I've had my bate of it. First thing I want to say is that every double I've had problems with the dealer that sold them to me did everything they could to make it right. That is except Cabelas.

OK lets see where to start. I have purchased quite a few doubles new from dealers both factory specs and custom made for me. Just about every manufacturer that I have purchased has had problems. Some issues were small and some were large. Some were cosmetic and some were down right dangerous.

Here are some of the issues I've had.

Searcy 470 I bought from an individual had barrels fall apart after 8 shots. Called Butch and he took gun back fixed it and sent it back to me at no cost. 8 shots later barrels came apart again, sent it back and Butch fixed it right this time and gun is still shooting well. Again at no cost to me. That's customer service.

Chapuis 470 had chambers that left the end of the cases looking like a star crimped shotshell after firing. Dealer took gun back and sent me a new one which was fine. Almost didn't get it back in time for a hunt I was going on.

Verney Carron 577 had triggers lock up after first two shots. Dealer offered to send to gunsmith but I didn't have time to wait so I disassembled the gun and fixed it. The same gun later started spewing rust and salts out between the ribs. Dealer sent it back to factory for repair and 8 months later I got gun back and was unhappy with to results so I had them make me a new gun. Took 8 months to get that one.

Sabatti 500 shot really well and I was very pleased with it. Bragged on it and shot it over 1000 times them the ribs separated in several places. Poor solder or glue joints, that's right looked more like glue than solder. Called Cabelas and they told me to send it to USSG EAA for repair and that's it. No offer to replaced or repair it for me. Sent gun to USSG and never heard a word out of them. Finally I called and they said they had to send it back to factory for repair. No idea when I might get that one back.

Heym 577 that I ordered had firing pins that didn't protrude enough and had a few misfires. Chambers were really tight so sent it to JJ for adjustment and rechambering. Just got thaat one back and am happy with the results.

Now here is my point or my complaint. I'm sick and tired of hearing "IT PASSED PROOF" well the proofers need to be fired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How can any factory making guns that cost what doubles cost send out guns that are not right. Any double over 375 caliber should be considered a dangerous game gun and should work everytime. They should not have to be sent back to the factory after two shots for repair. They should not misfire. They should not jam shut after firing and have to be broken open over a knee. They should shoot to the sights and be regulated properly. This two shots on a target somewhere within 5 inches of the center don't cut it. Regulation target should have a minimum of 6 shots in them to make sure those first two weren't an accident. They should not have to be worked on to get them to shoot. You should not have to put different front sights on them or knock the rear sight way off center to sight them in.

A gun that costs $5000 to $30000 should work for a life time! How much do you have to pay to get one built right the firs time? I'd love to own a Holland & Holland and for all the other doubles I've bought over the years I could have owned several Royals. I wonder if new H&Hs leave the factory perfect? I'm not going to pay $150000 or more to find out.

Again I want to say that all but one of the dealers has bent over backwards to make things right and I have no issues with those guys.

Oh and I know I'm not the only one having issues. I can't count how many people have called or emailed me asking what to do about problems they are having with new doubles.

Yes I have some wonderful doubles and hope my problems are solved now. I don't plan on buying another without a written contract proving the gun is without defects before its shipped to me.
OK I've bought my last double.

Sam

Sam I agree 100%!!!!

Wow Sam, you are going to run out of people who will sell to you. You always seem to have a complaint. No offense, just saying...

I heard about a H and H here in Aust a fellow paid $185,000.00 for New and it would not shoot for sh..t ,they sent out a gunsmith from the UK to fix it and he could not get it to shoot !!!!
I had a Merkel 470 ,the engraving looked like it was done by someone who had been to the Beer fest on the weekend and engraved it on monday ,you could not hit the inside of a barn with it ! when i took it to Africa it started shooting 7 inches to the right at 20 yards and was shot by a well known PH ,also so it wasnt just my shitty shooting as some smart arses suggested ,i think its on its fifth owner now

Sam

Firstly, proof only ensure that the gun and barrels don't blow apart using the proof load
and the action isn't "loose" after firing.
It doesn't guarantee shooting accuracy or
that the gun will work after that. Some guns
are proofed "in the white".

Anyway, agree with your sentiments.


TankHunter
That H&H you mentioned was a 500 and wasn't
new as such. It was returned to H&H and
sorted out. No one who would buy a NEW H&H
would send it back to "a gunsmith in the UK",
they would send it to H&H. Numerous people
here are well known to the Director of H&H
and on first name basis so it's not like we
can't pick up the phone and phone them even
if we are in an ex colony !!!

Sam:

I have had very good luck with my K-guns. My little Chapuis 9,3X74R has functioned perfectly since day one. After about 14 rounds, my .375 flanged broke some kind of spring and I had to send it back in for repairs. Seems to be working fine but with new guns, I try and run at least 100 rounds through it before it goes hunting.

You are right. This shouldn't happen with a new gun in these price ranges.

Sam-

Great post. I agree 100% with your position.

Let me just add that I have the exact same feelings about ANY large bore (DG) bolt rifle bought off the shelf or as a custom build, as I do about doubles. Absolutely no reason any rifle designed for use against DG (and what other reason is there to make one) should not be reliable off the shelf. Every large bore rifle I've bought needed work, and like you, sometimes it took multiple returns and even then some never met my expectations. Remington was the worst but also made one of the best - from their Custom Shop.

I own several doubles but do not regard myself as an expert of any kind. As has been stated, the "proof" markings just mean that the gun has successfully fired the "proof" loads. I have not had the problems that you refer to, but then, I probably do not shoot my doubles as much as you. I do however agree with your comment that a test target should have more than 2 bullet holes in it!
Peter.
PS. My guns are a K gun in 500/416, a Blaser S2 in 500NE and a M K Owen in 450NE. All have been maligned on this forum for various reasons!!! However, they do shoot!
Peter.

I guess this confirms my belief in vintage doubles from pre WWII days. If they have worked for the past 70-130 years, they should still be working well. In 20 years and well over two dozen vintage doubles I've not ad any of these problems. Not once!
Cal

Sam,
I totally understand what you went through. I admire you for reporting your findings because usually if anything negative is reported on this forum there is hell to pay.

Its nice to see the builders or their reps stand behind the products but most of the mistakes should of been caught before the rifles were even shipped.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I guess this confirms my belief in vintage doubles from pre WWII days. If they have worked for the past 70-130 years, they should still be working well. In 20 years and well over two dozen vintage doubles I've not ad any of these problems. Not once!
Cal

Cal, you must remember however that with those vintage rifles, any issues such as Sam is reporting were long ago worked out and corrected. Who knows if those vintage rifles had the same problems or not along the way. Then again, maybe workmanship was at a higher level back then.

I reported that my new VC had to have some work done on it as well. At the time, I was having my face rubbed in it a bit by an AR Heym shooter, that shall remain nameless, that had gone that direction from VC. Now it appears that all is not 100% well with that brand either, which confirms my earlier suspicions about ALL of these rifles being somewhat less than perfect.

Was I happy about needing regulation work on my bespoke VC? Hell no! In fact I was pissed at one point, I must admit. But cool heads prevailed and Ken and VC stood by the work 100%. In the end, the rifle was regulated with my personal handloads and is now shooting much better than I would have expected from the factory. So I am a happy customer again. In fact, I recently had an issue with a broken part on my Chapuis. Again, Ken got on the horn with the fellows in France and within days, the replacement part showed up straight from their factory. Again, 100% customer service from Kebco!

The Chapuis part wasn't unusual. The new VC needing re-regulation was. But it was corrected properly. Sam, you are spot on however as we all know people with VCs, Heyms, Searcys, even Holland and Hollands that arrived as bespoke weapons needing additional work. I could name about 10 guys / rifles in that category right now without much thought. Why that is the case is beyond my comprehension. I would like to see 6 to 8 shots on the regulation target. But beyond that, no more chambers cut too short, too tight, broken or misaligned firing pins, etc., etc. REALLY!! When these guns are hand built with individual attention, taking a year or so to make, costing as much as they do ... one would think extra care would be exercised before the rifle is ever shipped for presentation. Evidently not!

Sam,
good of you to call it like it is,I have owned 7 DR's,the only one that did not need anything was my first one a Merkel,& that was probably because somebody had already broken it in,I have bought four of these rifles brand new,all four needed work,from re-regulation to sight work,the aggravation is not worth the money,if you are a dumb ass & can put up with the BS then all is well in the DR world !!!!

Double don,
Sam is a very knowledgeable & honorable man,he knows his DR's,you calling him out is BS,I would never buy a gun from you,the last one that one of my friends sent for inspection that was for sale by you was loose,you claimed the gun was fine,look in your own back yard before you criticize others

I must be the luckiest double rifle buyer who ever lived, and Sam must be the unluckiest double rifle buyer that ever lived!

Out of about 30 double rifles I’ve owned over my life I’ve had two that had a problem! One was a Westley Richards Box lock that broke a tumbler spring, but was likely 50 years old when it finally broke. The other was a rifle I should have known better than to buy in the first place! It was a Winchester Grand European O/U 9.3X74R double that was never regulated at all, but the barrels were simply brazed together in a JIG, and we all know that doesn’t work.

All others have been perfectly regulated with little effort in working up a proper load, and none have failed me in any way.

This thread makes my point on test targets! A test target that comes with a new double rifle is nothing more that window dressing. The only thing they show is that two shots hit the target at the range listed on the target! A test target that is worth anything will have eight shots, four from each barrel, all fired from cool barrels, with the aiming point, indicated, and each shot labeled as to which barrel it came from, and order number of the shot. Then the center of each barrels center of group indicated. Nothing less tells you anything worth knowing!

Even vintage double rifle often need to have loads worked up for them, more so than new doubles, before they will regulate properly. This is because the vintage doubles were regulated with powders that are far different than the powders we have today, and most do not do their best with modern factory ammo. I do not consider having to work up a regulating load for any double rifle to be a problem, but is simply a fact of life with double rifles, new or old!
.....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I guess this confirms my belief in vintage doubles from pre WWII days. If they have worked for the past 70-130 years, they should still be working well. In 20 years and well over two dozen vintage doubles I've not ad any of these problems. Not once!
Cal

I have had one that "doubled" on me a couple of times that needed the triggers adjusted.

Apart from that, pretty good with everything else, the odd tighten up, one rib needing relaying but to me that is expected.

Ian Nyschens 450 double eventually came apart ,and sent it back to the Maker who fixed it free of charge as they should !! ,i suppose doubles arent a ''Perfect science '' like women ,you can spend a fortune on them, and still end up with a piece of CRAP !!! unless you are one of those perfect people you have to listen to [their bullshit ]about how nothing ever goes wrong for them

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Double don,
Sam is a very knowledgeable & honorable man,he knows his DR's,you calling him out is BS,I would never buy a gun from you,the last one that one of my friends sent for inspection that was for sale by you was loose,you claimed the gun was fine,look in your own back yard before you criticize others

I don't feel as if I called Sam out. I was just saying. Sam is indeed an honorable and knowledgable man, No argument. Regarding your"friend" who sent a gun to me. WTF? You are full of shit!! Back that one up asshole!! Typical internet slander!

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Double don,
Sam is a very knowledgeable & honorable man,he knows his DR's,you calling him out is BS,I would never buy a gun from you,the last one that one of my friends sent for inspection that was for sale by you was loose,you claimed the gun was fine,look in your own back yard before you criticize others

I don't feel as if I called Sam out. I was just saying. Sam is indeed an honorable and knowledgable man, No argument. Regarding your"friend" who sent a gun to me. WTF? You are full of shit!! Back that one up asshole!! Typical internet slander!

Don- I think Bill73 is saying you were the one that sent the gun.

I guess my experience largely mirrors that of Mac and Cal. On new manufactured rifles, I can only recall one that had a problem. The safety broke after I had used it for a brief period and needed to be fixed. A short trip to JJ paid for by the manufacturer and all was well. On the English guns, I have had zero with them in terms of mechanical function or general regulation. Now I have elected to have work done on some, lightening triggers, installing sights, adding recoil pads, etc. but that was elective surgery not because something was broke. I guess I have been lucky, touch wood.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Double don,
Sam is a very knowledgeable & honorable man,he knows his DR's,you calling him out is BS,I would never buy a gun from you,the last one that one of my friends sent for inspection that was for sale by you was loose,you claimed the gun was fine,look in your own back yard before you criticize others

I don't feel as if I called Sam out. I was just saying. Sam is indeed an honorable and knowledgable man, No argument. Regarding your"friend" who sent a gun to me. WTF? You are full of shit!! Back that one up asshole!! Typical internet slander!

I have never had a dispute either way. Of the very few guns I have sold, I don't recall a single complaint. If there were, it would not be a problem. If they don't like the tape I used to seal the box then return it. Never a conflict. Bill73 speaks out his ass!

I would just like to toss out a question here. Has anyone ever had trouble with a Krieghoff double?

Doubledon,
The language you use gives you away,you are an ass!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I would just like to toss out a question here. Has anyone ever had trouble with a Krieghoff double?

Dave,
I bought a 500/416 K-gun,I am very happy with it,I did have to have the front trigger polished,it was rough on the side that it would cut my finger,the right extractor was also in need of some work,the brass would not fall out of the chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Doubledon,
The language you use gives you away,you are an ass!!!

Sorry my language got your panties in a knot. Put up or make an apology. Name your friend who had a bad dealing with me!! You can't, because it never happened and you know it!

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I guess this confirms my belief in vintage doubles from pre WWII days. If they have worked for the past 70-130 years, they should still be working well. In 20 years and well over two dozen vintage doubles I've not ad any of these problems. Not once!
Cal

I totally agree......assuming they haven't been trashed. I would also add the aesthetics don't compare, but then again I'm biased.

Brett

Yeah that's crap Sam. I agree you're paying WAY too much money to have someone turn out a "finished" product that needs to be sent back immediately. I've heard too many times about makers sending "finished" rifles out that had glaring problems........but that maker stood by their product........the second time.

Brett

I have two Krieghoffs and zero problems; however I think they are more machine made than hand built; the human fitted parts tend to be the source of the problems. If we could make a DR completely with CNC machines, there would be no mechanical issues. (Baikal is there, although they have no aesthetic appeal, they are rugged and accurate.) It is impossible for them to become unsoldered as there is no solder, and the frames are made from surplus T72 tank steel. Of course, none of us would buy such a contraption. So, looks like a certain amount of mortality is just normal. As for the suggestion that only pre-war English doubles are any good; that might be true, but what is also true is they are priced way out of the range for me to enjoy them. It is not 1972 any more when they were cheap and no ammo was available.

Interesting thread.

My primary experience has been with 15-16 vintage British rifles. I have had a couple regulated for a modern load with great results, other than that no issues but I am very careful before I buy one.

The only bespoke rifle I had made was a Chapuis 9.3 that spread shots as the barrels warmed up.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I would just like to toss out a question here. Has anyone ever had trouble with a Krieghoff double?

Dave I have never owned a K-Rifle but I have several friends and PHs who have them, and I have never heard of any of them having a problem with them. The only reason I have never bought one is because they don’t fit me well, and I would have to have it re-stocked. I believe the K-rifle is the safest rifle on the market today, and without the draw-backs with the Blaser. Now that the K-rifle is available with selective ejectors, I’ve been thinking about buying one and have them fit it to me. Like I need another double rifle!

....................................................................

I've never owned a K-gun but I do know of one that decocks after the first shot is fired. A PH in Zim has it and can't find anyone to fix it.
I wanted to write this thread to get more people to tell of the issues with new guns. I didn't want it to become a cussing match. I took no insult from comments made and don't intend to insult anyone either. If I do I don't mean too.

Sam

I must be lucky I guess... Regarding the Brit doubles, do any of you more senior members remember the debacle regarding the sale of a Westley Richards 450/400 double from one member to another here...

That was a long time ago.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I must be lucky I guess... Regarding the Brit doubles, do any of you more senior members remember the debacle regarding the sale of a Westley Richards 450/400 double from one member to another here...

It was before my time.

I think it's one of the "top ten" in terms of posts here, point being, even Brit doubles can have issues.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I think it's one of the "top ten" in terms of posts here, point being, even Brit doubles can have issues.

Indeed, but as Ken Owen told me regarding the Holland & Holland's "unless they've been dicked with, they all shoot well". I've owned about 100 doubles since about 1973. Doubles are a love/hate relationship for sure. They can be very frustrating to say the very least. If you want simple, buy a bolt gun. That being said, Sam has brought up some good points.

Can't argue with that sir.

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I think it's one of the "top ten" in terms of posts here, point being, even Brit doubles can have issues.

Indeed, but as Ken Owen told me regarding the Holland & Holland's "unless they've been dicked with, they all shoot well". I've owned about 100 doubles since about 1973. Doubles are a love/hate relationship for sure. They can be very frustrating to say the very least. If you want simple, buy a bolt gun. That being said, Sam has brought up some good points.

Don, I don't know about that one. I personally know of a fellow who just took delivery, earlier this year, of his bespoke, Holland and Holland Royal in 500NE. That rifle is on it's way back to the factory for a cosmetic and functional correction. The rifle requires re-regulation.

Seems to matter not, Merkel to H&H, all of these guns are susceptible to needing warranty work immediately upon delivery. I really wonder how that can be with a gun that was hand crafted with much personal TLC going into its construction prior to being declared ready for presentation to the client. If it were mainly built by machine, with minimal personal inspection, that would be one thing. But a rifle that is in the craftsman's hands for the better part of a year, one would just expect more. Maybe I'm missing something?

Cal had it right, pre-WWII English doubles. The Golden Age of the English double rifle trade.

Butch Searcy had a very red face over this incident. When I received my new 470 Deluxe Grade it had no front sight!

465H&H

I agree with Cal and Mike. I have never purchased a post war English double rifle as I feared that the best craftsmen were killed off during the war. Todd, that was Ken's exact statement. He told me that after working up regulation loads for three of my Hollands made between 1890 and 1936. Perhaps he was referring to post war? Don't know.

The WR 450-400 I spoke of was made well before WWII...