quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
Malek,

This isn't bickering, it's good natured teasing among former service members. I promise you that when we were active, each of us would have willingly risked our lives to help each other out.

As far as Sabatti, just be prepared to add another $800 for re-regulation and maybe another $500 for stock work if it doesn't work out of the box. Aaron Little does a great job on these rifles, such to the point I should really start calling mine a Salittle or maybe Aaronatti.....

Ive been trying to get my hands on unbarrelled actions from Sabatti through my contacts within the US, no such luck yet. Of course I couldn't sell them near as Inexpensively as Sabatti, nonetheless I think a good box lock double with good barrels regulated properly with English styled stock would sell. I certainly wouldn't call them Sabatti, Salittle, or Aaronatti. T. Williams is a maybe.

I LOVE it!!! The T. Williams Double Rifle. Sabatti action barreled, stocked and regulated by Aaron Little........

To all members,
I do solemnly swear never to start another thread of this nature ever again,may the DR gods loosen my ribs & blow up my two barrels ha ha ha
I still think though that O/U DR's are more accurate & better looking

Now you've gone too far!

But seriously, o/u rifles give me more issues when regulating and in my experience never shoot as well. In theory one would think they would be easier, in reality its just not the case.

A nice sunny winter morning here in NZ and it feels like it is a hunting camp fireside gathering with a nice whiskey in Hand!

Thanks guys for the real fun entertainment! Much appreciated!

quote:

Malek,This isn't bickering, it's good natured teasing among former service members. I promise you that when we were active, each of us would have willingly risked our lives to help each other out. As far as Sabatti, just be prepared to add another $800 for re-regulation and maybe another $500 for stock work if it doesn't work out of the box. Aaron Little does a great job on these rifles, such to the point I should really start calling mine a Salittle or maybe Aaronatti.....

INTJ:

I am all for the bickering and ribbing if it stays on the subject of attacking and eliminating the first and most dangerous enemy to our national security the Sabatti double rifle. no matter how many air raids it takes from both of the USAF and the navy. certainly our commander in chief Mr. Obama will never hesitate or think twice about doing it. In matter of fact he and his allies Clinton and the Democrats as well as the progressive left media, already started their military campaign after the recent tragedy in Orlando, against terrorism by taking on its first and most dangerous operators. Alas though it is not the Sabatti double rifle but the vulnerable AR 15. and their second notorious enemy the 2nd amendment.

On a more serious note, as for the Sabatti rifles, I own 3 of them. my 470 has perfect muzzles out of the box and is a perfect shooter 6 rounds in 2 3/8" @ 60 meters open sights R on R and L to L and about 1" apart C to C. It could have been better if it was not for operator's error. I have $6K in it and Could not have asked for any better rifle for the money period in mater of fact I think it is a bargain. My 9.3x74R also have perfect muzzles shoots about 2 7/8" group using two different bullets of my own loads @ 100 yards with a scope R on R and L on L. I am still experimenting with loads and I think It will do better. Locks up like a volt even after few hundred rounds down it's barrels.
As for my third one it is 450-400 NE is a beautiful rifle the muzzles are perfectly round alas though the rifling has been dremmeled. it is not a shooter. Cabala's was owning up and ready to have me send it to their importer to have it fixed. but I could not trust the importer to fix it right I think I will have it fixed at my own expense and have it done right. I still will come ahead and I will have a rifle tailored to my favorite load and cartridge.
All rifles locks up like a volt and have perfect metal to metal and metal to wood fit also very nice pieces of wood, nothing elaborate but very nice.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
Malek,

This isn't bickering, it's good natured teasing among former service members. I promise you that when we were active, each of us would have willingly risked our lives to help each other out.

As far as Sabatti, just be prepared to add another $800 for re-regulation and maybe another $500 for stock work if it doesn't work out of the box. Aaron Little does a great job on these rifles, such to the point I should really start calling mine a Salittle or maybe Aaronatti.....

Ive been trying to get my hands on unbarrelled actions from Sabatti through my contacts within the US, no such luck yet. Of course I couldn't sell them near as Inexpensively as Sabatti, nonetheless I think a good box lock double with good barrels regulated properly with English styled stock would sell. I certainly wouldn't call them Sabatti, Salittle, or Aaronatti. T. Williams is a maybe.

I LOVE it!!! The T. Williams Double Rifle. Sabatti action barreled, stocked and regulated by Aaron Little........

Good grief man. Just stab me in the heart with a Blaser before putting my name on a Sabatti anything, even if Aaron does make it functional!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
Malek,

This isn't bickering, it's good natured teasing among former service members. I promise you that when we were active, each of us would have willingly risked our lives to help each other out.

As far as Sabatti, just be prepared to add another $800 for re-regulation and maybe another $500 for stock work if it doesn't work out of the box. Aaron Little does a great job on these rifles, such to the point I should really start calling mine a Salittle or maybe Aaronatti.....

Ive been trying to get my hands on unbarrelled actions from Sabatti through my contacts within the US, no such luck yet. Of course I couldn't sell them near as Inexpensively as Sabatti, nonetheless I think a good box lock double with good barrels regulated properly with English styled stock would sell. I certainly wouldn't call them Sabatti, Salittle, or Aaronatti. T. Williams is a maybe.

I LOVE it!!! The T. Williams Double Rifle. Sabatti action barreled, stocked and regulated by Aaron Little........

Good grief man. Just stab me in the heart with a Blaser before putting my name on a Sabatti anything, even if Aaron does make it functional!

Now Todd I new that you had a bad case of Sabattiphobic, But I did not think that it was that serious.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
Now you've gone too far!

But seriously, o/u rifles give me more issues when regulating and in my experience never shoot as well. In theory one would think they would be easier, in reality its just not the case.

Aaron,
I have no experience in fixing O/U's but do have two that I shoot,both made by Cz brno,one is 458 Lott & the other is 375 H & H,I also have two Heym's & a Krieghoff,the 458 Lott is so accurate & easy to shoot that it is my favorite gun,not pretty but shoots everything well that you feed it,from 350 gr bullets to 500 grs,the barrels are 21",it was worked on by our very own h2oboy,took my only Tuskless with that gun in complete confidence.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
There are a lot of the newer Sabatti's on Gunbroker,including O/U's,has anyone here come close to one of these guns? anyone bought one of these?has the quality improved?

Hello Bill73,

In reply to your original question, I gave you the link to my Sabatti 500NE, and my satisfaction with it.

Well, I just recently acquired a second Sabatti - a Big Five Model 92 EJ in 470NE caliber. It was NEAR NEW, being test fired only. All the internet critism about Sabatti had the owner spooked, so he decided he better sell it - lucky for me.





I didn't have a 470NE yet, and I wanted to try an ejector model. The price was right, $3400, which I think is a steal for an ejector 470NE. I figured at that price, I could always send it to Aaron for re-regulation if it needed it.

Based on my first testing with handloads, I don't think I'll be sending it to Aaron any time soon.

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

Buck, could I ask which of those bullet holes came from which barrel! Just wondering where the centers of each barrels' individual group is in relation to the aiming point!

The composite group is great at 50 yds! just curious as to finding how crossed it is shooting and how high or low the group is at that range.

It seems lately Sabatti has gotten their crap together, finally!

Great! Two now that are shooting like a double is supposed to!

......................................................................

buckstix,
Looks like your gun is shooting well,you are using AA5744,are these reduced loads? How fast are they going? Thanks.

Here's a dagaboy that is no fan of the Sabatti double, either. 500 NE with a 570 gr X bullet. Done in by a 80 year old retired USAF fighter pilot, of all things....even has a scope mounted on it. This should of never worked How bloody embarrassed that buffalo must be!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u14WMSjA49o

Seriously, this gun has clean muzzles and shoots barnes, woodleighs, horndays, swifts, and even cast bullets to the same POI at 50 yds......all sub 2" without crossing. Pretty sure this would be the last gun dad would ever get rid of.

Andy#3

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
There are a lot of the newer Sabatti's on Gunbroker,including O/U's,has anyone here come close to one of these guns? anyone bought one of these?has the quality improved?

Hello Bill73,

In reply to your original question, I gave you the link to my Sabatti 500NE, and my satisfaction with it.

Well, I just recently acquired a second Sabatti - a Big Five Model 92 EJ in 470NE caliber. It was NEAR NEW, being test fired only. All the internet critism about Sabatti had the owner spooked, so he decided he better sell it - lucky for me.





I didn't have a 470NE yet, and I wanted to try an ejector model. The price was right, $3400, which I think is a steal for an ejector 470NE. I figured at that price, I could always send it to Aaron for re-regulation if it needed it.

Based on my first testing with handloads, I don't think I'll be sending it to Aaron any time soon.

You REALLY need to make it into a 800 NE......

I really enjoyed your thread on the 700 NE, and the next step would be to make one that hasn't been chambered yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Andy#3:
Here's a dagaboy that is no fan of the Sabatti double, either. 500 NE with a 570 gr X bullet. Done in by a 80 year old retired USAF fighter pilot, of all things....even has a scope mounted on it. This should of never worked How bloody embarrassed that buffalo must be!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u14WMSjA49o

Seriously, this gun has clean muzzles and shoots barnes, woodleighs, horndays, swifts, and even cast bullets to the same POI at 50 yds......all sub 2" without crossing. Pretty sure this would be the last gun dad would ever get rid of.

Andy#3

Cool video!! Your dad must have flown century series fighters?

INTJ...you are correct. F-100's for 9 years 11 months. Did 3 tours in 'Nam. He was out of flight school, and on his way to Korea, in 86's, when that war ended. He has never gotten over not being able to kill Migs....had to settle for mostly ground support in 'Nam....but he was there for operation linebacker, and got to help out blast them back to the dark ages, before the withdraw. Andy #3

Good planes, both of them!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Buck, could I ask which of those bullet holes came from which barrel! Just wondering where the centers of each barrels' individual group is in relation to the aiming point!

The composite group is great at 50 yds! just curious as to finding how crossed it is shooting and how high or low the group is at that range.

It seems lately Sabatti has gotten their crap together, finally!

Great! Two now that are shooting like a double is supposed to!

Hello MacD37,

The 3 right most - came from the right barrel, the 3 left most - came from the left barrel. The top 2 that show the 1-3/4" measurement, were the first rigt/left pair. The other 4 followed suit. Aiming was "center" of the arc, so its shooting about 3-3/4" high and 3/4" right of aiming point. Something that I intend to correct with adjusting the sights once I'm finished experimenting.
.
.
.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
buckstix,
Looks like your gun is shooting well,you are using AA5744,are these reduced loads? How fast are they going? Thanks.

Hello Bill73,

I didn't chronograph the loads. I just used the data I obtained from AA when I asked for 470NE loads using their AA5744. I wanted to shoot the rifle same day I got it, or I wouldn't have been able to sleep that night. I have a personal rule that I always shoot a rifle the same day I get it.
.

quote:

Hello Bill73,In reply to your original question, I gave you the link to my Sabatti 500NE, and my satisfaction with it.Well, I just recently acquired a second Sabatti - a Big Five Model 92 EJ in 470NE caliber. It was NEAR NEW, being test fired only. All the internet critism about Sabatti had the owner spooked, so he decided he better sell it - lucky for me. I didn't have a 470NE yet, and I wanted to try an ejector model. The price was right, $3400, which I think is a steal for an ejector 470NE. I figured at that price, I could always send it to Aaron for re-regulation if it needed it.Based on my first testing with handloads, I don't think I'll be sending it to Aaron any time soon. " .. you never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early .. "

Hello Buck;

Well congratulations on a beautiful excellent rifle, indeed a steel for that price and shooting that good.

I will be interested too to know the velocity of the load you were shooting.

Are you going to give the stock the same treatment you gave your 500NE?

I know you will enjoy shooting it a lot for sure, I do enjoy shooting mine very much so.

I am happy for you to have snatched this deal, at the same time feeling bad for the guy who had to sell it because of peer pressure and political correctness if I may say so.

incidentally I enjoyed following your 700NE build thread.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

Hello Buck;

Well congratulations on a beautiful excellent rifle, indeed a steel for that price and shooting that good.

I will be interested too to know the velocity of the load you were shooting.

Are you going to give the stock the same treatment you gave your 500NE?

I know you will enjoy shooting it a lot for sure, I do enjoy shooting mine very much so.

I am happy for you to have snatched this deal, at the same time feeling bad for the guy who had to sell it because of peer pressure and political correctness if I may say so.

incidentally I enjoyed following your 700NE build thread.

Hello malek,

Yes, at that price I just couldn't pass up a 470NE. Especially with it being an ejector model.

I plan on doing some in-depth load developement for the 470NE, a cartridge that is new to me. The regulation target that came with the rifle shows that factory Hornady ammo was used. Unfortunately I don't have any for verification. I did acquire some Hornady 500g DGX bullets, so I'll see if I can duplicate the factory specs via hand loading.

Unlike the Sabatti 500NE, this rifle's comb doesn't "kiss" me when fired, so the stock will be left "as is", unless it also starts getting too personal.

I too feel a little bad for the seller. (emphasis on "little") He told me he lost quite a bit on this deal, having bought it from Cabelas. But he was fully aware of my intentions to re-regulate if required, and he knew that this was a pricey gamble on my end. It was his only double rifle and he didn't want to own something that needed excuses, and he didn't want to put any more money into it. To my benefit, he decided to cut his losses and move on. Surprizingly, he asked that I keep him updated on my shooting with it, a tribute to his being a real stand up guy.

As I acumulate some data, I think I'll start a new post detailing what I find.

And thanks for your interest on my 700NE ptoject.

.
.
.

quote:

I plan on doing some in-depth load developement for the 470NE, a cartridge that is new to me. The regulation target that came with the rifle shows that factory Hornady ammo was used. Unfortunately I don't have any for verification. I did acquire some Hornady 500g DGX bullets, so I'll see if I can duplicate the factory specs via hand loading.

Hello Buck;

Glad the rifle fits you and don't kiss you, mine perfectly fits me and don't kiss me either.
I will be looking forward to follow your new thread on the 470NE, I do have some loads if you are interested in having I will be more than Glad to give them to you.

Can you post a picture for the regulation target that came with the rifle?

Buck,

Like I mentioned earlier, this Sabatti would be a PERRECT donor action for an 800 NE. The Sabatti actions are made of modern steels and are very strong. That is the logical next step for you in working up a double.....a new chambering. Based on your skills in making the 700, I have no doubt you could do it.......

quote:

Originally posted by buckstix:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
There are a lot of the newer Sabatti's on Gunbroker,including O/U's,has anyone here come close to one of these guns? anyone bought one of these?has the quality improved?

Hello Bill73,

In reply to your original question, I gave you the link to my Sabatti 500NE, and my satisfaction with it.

Well, I just recently acquired a second Sabatti - a Big Five Model 92 EJ in 470NE caliber. It was NEAR NEW, being test fired only. All the internet critism about Sabatti had the owner spooked, so he decided he better sell it - lucky for me.





I didn't have a 470NE yet, and I wanted to try an ejector model. The price was right, $3400, which I think is a steal for an ejector 470NE. I figured at that price, I could always send it to Aaron for re-regulation if it needed it.

Based on my first testing with handloads, I don't think I'll be sending it to Aaron any time soon.

The only interesting gun is an accurate one.

quote:

quote:Originally posted by Nakihunter:srose owns one too & is very happy with it.

[/QUOTE]
NO. He is not. Not any longer. He was happy with it initially but has had major issues since. Last I heard from him on the subject, he was doubtful he would ever see it back from the repair shop as it had basically disintegrated from use.[/QUOTE]



Disintegrated is a very general word, to me it means that the action has been shot loose, the stock is falling of the action, the springs has broken down, the barrels has come apart, the fore end was split in half, the front and back sight have popped off and the triggers has fallen out. forgot about the firing pins I guess they have been broken too. You hold the gun and shake it and it will rattle all over.

Todd in all seriousness, In order to help those of us who owns Sabatti doubles and to know what to expect beside the bad service reputation and dermal regulations on (some guns). Can you be more specific?
Wish Sam could chime in and tell us what specifically went wrong with the rifle and in his opinion what could be done to prevent it, beside the obvious not shooting it.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

quote:

quote:Originally posted by Nakihunter:srose owns one too & is very happy with it.

NO. He is not. Not any longer. He was happy with it initially but has had major issues since. Last I heard from him on the subject, he was doubtful he would ever see it back from the repair shop as it had basically disintegrated from use.[/QUOTE]



Disintegrated is a very general word, to me it means that the action has been shot loose, the stock is falling of the action, the springs has broken down, the barrels has come apart, the fore end was split in half, the front and back sight have popped off and the triggers has fallen out. forgot about the firing pins I guess they have been broken too. You hold the gun and shake it and it will rattle all over.

Todd in all seriousness, In order to help those of us who owns Sabatti doubles and to know what to expect beside the bad service reputation and dermal regulations on (some guns). Can you be more specific?
Wish Sam could chime in and tell us what specifically went wrong with the rifle and in his opinion what could be done to prevent it, beside the obvious not shooting it. [/QUOTE]

I've not been on the B&M forum, where Sam hangs out these days, for some time now but IIRC, Sam stated the barrels had separated, which of course, caused a few other issues, some of which, although tongue in cheek, you highlighted above! lol

He was further frustrated by the fact that neither the importer, the factory, or Cabelas would stand behind the gun and repair it. Again, IIRC, he stated he had an issue finding someone willing to tackle the repair after seeing the condition of the gun and he wasn't very confident he would get it back anytime soon in working condition. I don't know who he finally settled on doing the repair work. If you have his email or are on the B&M forum, it would be best to contact him directly to get the straight scoop.

Todd:
A good friend up here in AK had a Sabatti he bought from Cabelas. It would not make a decent target so he asked me to try. I did and it was terrible. Both Cabelas and Sabatti ignored him until they found out he was a lawyer and was planning to sue. I gave him a writeup of what I found with the rifle and they refunded his money. Sadly, however, was only the threat of a suit--not because it was the right thing to do. No matter the quality of the "new" Sabatti rifles, their image is severely tarnished.
Cal
PS. A gent in the southeast--his Sabatti one barrel shot very well, the other was two feet off target. A mate in Zim had the sights and the ribs come loose. Another rifle I saw began to rust in the humid weather after a rain storm showing cheap low carbon steel. I showed a pic of the muzzle grinding in my latest book.

Sabatti replied the the lawyer my appraisal of their rifles was incorrect.

My Sabatti had its barrels brazed together, so it's unlikely they ever would have come loose. My guess is that was Sabattis response to a few that may have separated. Aaron soldered mine back together after he regulated it, and I have complete confidence in his work.

I think that is he only way to have confidence in an older Sabatti--sent to Aaron or someone like him and have them sort it out. The new Sabattis are likely much better. Having said that, there are a lot of older out there with no issues at all. You have to remember that with the Internet, ever problem is amplified. Go on a diesel truck forum and you will think most guys trucks are ready to blow up. The truth is most have no issues.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
In Vietnam the USAF carried a much greater combat load than the Navy, but who really cares about ancient history? Let's look more recently, at the Gulf War. Don't see too many USN kills compared to the USAF in the modern age.......

http://jpgleize.perso.neuf.fr/aces/gulus.htm


More to the point, what are you taking any of this seriously Jorge?

Different missions and different "Route Packages". Todd answered the Gulf War stats so no sense going over that again. But here is the fundamental difference and having trained both USN and USAF officers in Pensacola (I lasted exactly ONE flight with the USAF and the way the conduct business in the cockpit): The Air Force has an entire library of "how to" procedures, tactics, flight regimes, etc. If its not in there, then you can't do it. The Navy on the other hand, has one rather thin book called 3710 and if it's NOT addressed in there, then you can do it. Oh, and I "get it" alright, just consider yourself in awe in our presence...

Not true. The FIRST part of every USAF flight manual explains how the procedures contained are NOT to be used a substitute for sound judgement. They are considered guidelines and best practices under most circumstances. The USAF does expect its pilots to know all the rules, AND know when they don't apply. That would certainly make a Navy pilot's head spin.

I know when we'd get students trained by the Navy for basic pilot training, they struggled to keep up with their USAF trained classmates in advanced. I remember one kid who would have never made it through USAF training that the Navy happily passed. Add to that how the Gulf War kill ratio for the USAF was 48 to 0, and you can see why I'm just not feelin' the awe around you Navy guys......

My experience in Pensacola was the exact opposite. We had the manuals and what I said is exactly on point. Yes the "judgement" issue is in there, but still the VOLUMES on "How to" are there. Further, we give the "keys" to our Aviators a lot faster than ou AF counter parts. When I was in P-Cola flying T-2s I was invited to become an Instructor in the Mitsubishi jet trainer. I lasted ONE flight. The procedures were so friggin' RIGID and canned it was painful. And there were Instructor pilots, not students.

Keep those lead wings...

I wasn't aware that either the Navy or the Air Force flew Sabattis although the few that have been used in the field do seem to have good kill ratios.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
In Vietnam the USAF carried a much greater combat load than the Navy, but who really cares about ancient history? Let's look more recently, at the Gulf War. Don't see too many USN kills compared to the USAF in the modern age.......

http://jpgleize.perso.neuf.fr/aces/gulus.htm


More to the point, what are you taking any of this seriously Jorge?

Different missions and different "Route Packages". Todd answered the Gulf War stats so no sense going over that again. But here is the fundamental difference and having trained both USN and USAF officers in Pensacola (I lasted exactly ONE flight with the USAF and the way the conduct business in the cockpit): The Air Force has an entire library of "how to" procedures, tactics, flight regimes, etc. If its not in there, then you can't do it. The Navy on the other hand, has one rather thin book called 3710 and if it's NOT addressed in there, then you can do it. Oh, and I "get it" alright, just consider yourself in awe in our presence...

Not true. The FIRST part of every USAF flight manual explains how the procedures contained are NOT to be used a substitute for sound judgement. They are considered guidelines and best practices under most circumstances. The USAF does expect its pilots to know all the rules, AND know when they don't apply. That would certainly make a Navy pilot's head spin.

I know when we'd get students trained by the Navy for basic pilot training, they struggled to keep up with their USAF trained classmates in advanced. I remember one kid who would have never made it through USAF training that the Navy happily passed. Add to that how the Gulf War kill ratio for the USAF was 48 to 0, and you can see why I'm just not feelin' the awe around you Navy guys......

My experience in Pensacola was the exact opposite. We had the manuals and what I said is exactly on point. Yes the "judgement" issue is in there, but still the VOLUMES on "How to" are there. Further, we give the "keys" to our Aviators a lot faster than ou AF counter parts. When I was in P-Cola flying T-2s I was invited to become an Instructor in the Mitsubishi jet trainer. I lasted ONE flight. The procedures were so friggin' RIGID and canned it was painful. And there were Instructor pilots, not students.

Keep those lead wings...

Like I said, many Navy trained guys just can't keep up and make the cut in a USAF training program. The Navy students even had "support groups" at USAF bases to help them deal with the increased standards in the USAF programs......

quote:

quote:Originally posted by malek:quote:quote:Originally posted by Nakihunter:srose owns one too & is very happy with it. NO. He is not. Not any longer. He was happy with it initially but has had major issues since. Last I heard from him on the subject, he was doubtful he would ever see it back from the repair shop as it had basically disintegrated from use.

Disintegrated is a very general word, to me it means that the action has been shot loose, the stock is falling of the action, the springs has broken down, the barrels has come apart, the fore end was split in half, the front and back sight have popped off and the triggers has fallen out. forgot about the firing pins I guess they have been broken too. You hold the gun and shake it and it will rattle all over.Todd in all seriousness, In order to help those of us who owns Sabatti doubles and to know what to expect beside the bad service reputation and dermal regulations on (some guns). Can you be more specific? Wish Sam could chime in and tell us what specifically went wrong with the rifle and in his opinion what could be done to prevent it, beside the obvious not shooting it. [/QUOTE]I've not been on the B&M forum, where Sam hangs out these days, for some time now but IIRC, Sam stated the barrels had separated, which of course, caused a few other issues, some of which, although tongue in cheek, you highlighted above! lol He was further frustrated by the fact that neither the importer, the factory, or Cabelas would stand behind the gun and repair it. Again, IIRC, he stated he had an issue finding someone willing to tackle the repair after seeing the condition of the gun and he wasn't very confident he would get it back anytime soon in working condition. I don't know who he finally settled on doing the repair work. If you have his email or are on the B&M forum, it would be best to contact him directly to get the straight scoop.

[/quote] Todd:A good friend up here in AK had a Sabatti he bought from Cabelas. It would not make a decent target so he asked me to try. I did and it was terrible. Both Cabelas and Sabatti ignored him until they found out he was a lawyer and was planning to sue. I gave him a writeup of what I found with the rifle and they refunded his money. Sadly, however, was only the threat of a suit--not because it was the right thing to do. No matter the quality of the "new" Sabatti rifles, their image is severely tarnished.CalPS. A gent in the southeast--his Sabatti one barrel shot very well, the other was two feet off target. A mate in Zim had the sights and the ribs come loose. Another rifle I saw began to rust in the humid weather after a rain storm showing cheap low carbon steel. I showed a pic of the muzzle grinding in my latest book.Sabatti replied the the lawyer my appraisal of their rifles was incorrect.[/quote]



Todd and Cal;

Thank you both for responding and reporting about negative issues others who owned Sabatti rifles had experienced. Also the difficulty that they had communicating with the company and the importer. The latter being the most offensive in my opinion as for the other issues (separation of barrels and other stuff I don't believe that it is unique to the Sabatti double rifle (CHAPUIS AND OTHER DOUBLES HAD SEPERATED BARRELS ETC) For sure it is not some thing that few hundred dollars and a knowledgeable gun smith can't fix. Now do I state that it is okay for it to happen to a rifle that you spend few thousand dollars owning. for sure no and I find it completely unacceptable.
As for the rusting issue this is the first time I hear of and not being aware about the circumstances I can't comment on. Except I had couple of well oiled beautiful Winchester rifles that rusted just from being exposed to a very humid atmosphere with out being rained on. luckily for me I caught it in time. before the rust had eaten through the metal. Thanks again

A man was conducting an All Service member briefing one day, and he posed the question: "What would you do if you found a scorpion in your tent?"

- A Sailor said, "I'd step on it."
- A Soldier said, "I'd hit it with my boot."
- A Marine said, "I'd catch it, break the stinger off, and eat it."
- An Airman said, "I'd call room service and find out why there's a tent in my room."

https://youtu.be/g5zgJFYFIRg

Even THIS guy gets it :

Love to hijack, but back on topic, enjoy this video and try not to laugh too hard, especially at the first target he shoots.

https://youtu.be/0oCJpGTn1j0?t=275

It's my fault too for the hijack. Naval aviators have always been very sensitive about being the B team for the USAF, and I really shouldn't pick on them about that...........

quote:

I know when we'd get students trained by the Navy for basic pilot training, they struggled to keep up with their USAF trained classmates in advanced. I remember one kid who would have never made it through USAF training that the Navy happily passed. Add to that how the Gulf War kill ratio for the USAF was 48 to 0, and you can see why I'm just not feelin' the awe around you Navy guys...... Big Grin

Funny my experience as an instructor was the exact opposite. Could it be because the USN and AF's Primary are different and AF students subjected to the AF process had a leg up on Navy guys used to Navy processess? BINGO! that is wny AF students in advanced lagged behind USN students on our side. B team sure, when option A is landing on a 10K runway that my mother can do it. Since you're enamored with Desert Storm, the Navy was conducting combat operations within 48 hours of the invasion of Kuwait. Took the Air Farce close to three months to get going. During Vietnam when you consider the ratio of assets on site, the Navy surpassed the AF, not to mention the kill ratio against a REAL enemy Soviet trained and led, not a bunch of untrained Iraqis. Attrition rate from walking in the door to posting to operational squadrons, the Navy's is much higher and why? simple HIGHER standards, even wit the previously mentioned rigid AF training. Lastly, watch an air show involving the Thunderbirds then watch the Blues... Even Yeager got it...

Really...

My experience with most commissioned officers, regardless of branch of service and especially aviators, is that they are overly impressed with themselves and believe they need to waste my time convincing me of this "fact". They do not care who they $hit on, fck over or otherwise disregard when attempting to get their ticket stamped on their way up the ladder to that comfy command staff and eventually civilian consultant position. There is a forum especially for dick stacking/measuring with regard to aviation.

Of course there are a few exceptions. A butter bar Lt who worked his way up to E-7 before receiving his commission and another butter bar who served in the IDF paras before joining the US Army. I've contended with ring thumpers (West Point) and Cadidiots (Cadets).

Hurl crap at me all you wish. Your conduct on this thread does not prove contrary to my observation.

Jorge, no need to be so defensive. Everyone knows Naval Aviation peaked 40 years ago and that you have to go there, like a 45 yr old laborer reliving his high school football days, to feel good about the Navy.

Nowadays, during major conflicts Naval air asserts are OPCON to the USAF so they can be employed in the most effective manner. Maybe that's because while the Navy did develop their Top Gun program, the USAF developed Red Flag and other war scenario training exercises as well as fighter (and bomber and transport) advanced aerial combat training. BTW, the ONLY US air-to-air combat loss from the Gulf War on was a USN F-18.

The Navy seems to have this outdated notion that you can't be both creative AND disciplined. The USAF expects pilots to be BOTH disciplined and creative, which requires a very high level of SA. Unlike the Navy, the USAF has no self-paced training programs. You learn at the prescribed rate or you are eliminated, and THAT was the reason Navy trained guys struggled in USAF courses. Oh yeah, the Blue Angels are sloppy compared to the Thunderbirds.............

Now, if you are tired of measuring our respective "bore sizes" I can provide an objective analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the two training approaches. I was involved very early in the training integration process and both the HQ level and the operator level. Of course, its much more fun to keep measuring bore sizes.............

Densive? you kidding'? just having fun with our civilian counter parts.. I don't know where you get that self paced training idea. Discipline and creative in the AF, seriously? When a young (jg) checks into a Hornet squadron deployed at sea, he gets the keys to the jet and just goes. Not so in the AF. LOTS of hand holding there. Hell, I remember briefing for El Dorado Canyon in 86 with the AF as an 0-3 in Sigonella as a Division Lead and our E-2 guys had one 0-4 and the AF shows up with a bunch 0-6s. Oh the ONLY loss there was an AF F-111. What does that prove? nothing. As to the Blues, that's your best one yet!

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
Really...

My experience with most commissioned officers, regardless of branch of service and especially aviators, is that they are overly impressed with themselves and believe they need to waste my time convincing me of this "fact". They do not care who they $hit on, fck over or otherwise disregard when attempting to get their ticket stamped on their way up the ladder to that comfy command staff and eventually civilian consultant position. There is a forum especially for dick stacking/measuring with regard to aviation.

Of course there are a few exceptions. A butter bar Lt who worked his way up to E-7 before receiving his commission and another butter bar who served in the IDF paras before joining the US Army. I've contended with ring thumpers (West Point) and Cadidiots (Cadets).

Hurl crap at me all you wish. Your conduct on this thread does not prove contrary to my observation.

Don't blame me, blame the Air Farce guy Overly impressed? sure! how many Carrier landings to you have? As to your Command and Staff BS, that is the purview of the AF. We in the Navy deploy. Sorry to have kicked sand in your mangina and your Sabatti..
Back on topic again. the barrels on my Sabatti:

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
Really...

My experience with most commissioned officers, regardless of branch of service and especially aviators, is that they are overly impressed with themselves and believe they need to waste my time convincing me of this "fact". They do not care who they $hit on, fck over or otherwise disregard when attempting to get their ticket stamped on their way up the ladder to that comfy command staff and eventually civilian consultant position. There is a forum especially for dick stacking/measuring with regard to aviation.

Of course there are a few exceptions. A butter bar Lt who worked his way up to E-7 before receiving his commission and another butter bar who served in the IDF paras before joining the US Army. I've contended with ring thumpers (West Point) and Cadidiots (Cadets).

Hurl crap at me all you wish. Your conduct on this thread does not prove contrary to my observation.

I don't give two cents what you think about me and and have zero interest in convincing you of anything. My brother Jorge wanted to argue about who is better, USAF or Navy aviators. That is not something that either one of us can give in on and yes, we are not to worried about how it looks to others. In truth, I would have flown my C-130 through hostile fire and landed on a tiny dirt strip to save his sorry Naval ass, and he would have reciprocated in if he were in a similar situation.

The Sabatti issue has been covered again and again. Some of the early ones had ground muzzles. Sometimes they are not regulated so well. Somewhere early in the process they started brazing the barrels together, my guess is because of issues with poor soldering and barrels separating. The Cabelas Sabattis were a rush job and quality suffered. The only way I would have peace of mind with one was to do what I did and send it to Aaron little for regulation. The new ones ought to be okay. They are a strong, tight action made of modern chrome moly steel. The use good quality flat springs in the action. The wood is solid but nothing fancy. They should really leave off the engraving as it doesn't enhance the rifle at all. The 500 is a tad barrel light, but the 450-400, 450, and 470 seem okay. I added an 11 oz Mercury recoils reduced to mine bring the weight to about 10.5 lbs. If I were looking for a new low cost double today, I'd be drawn to a $7000-$8000 Merkel, Krieghoff, or Searcy. I would not spend $6000 for a new Sabatti. Mine cost $4250 and with all the work I had Aaron do I am in it for under $6k.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Densive? you kidding'? just having fun with our civilian counter parts.. I don't know where you get that self paced training idea. Discipline and creative in the AF, seriously? When a young (jg) checks into a Hornet squadron deployed at sea, he gets the keys to the jet and just goes. Not so in the AF. LOTS of hand holding there. Hell, I remember briefing for El Dorado Canyon in 86 with the AF as an 0-3 in Sigonella as a Division Lead and our E-2 guys had one 0-4 and the AF shows up with a bunch 0-6s. Oh the ONLY loss there was an AF F-111. What does that prove? nothing. As to the Blues, that's your best one yet!

When we first started integrating the training, We had the hardest time getting the Navy to have a firm graduation dates. Navy students would trickle in and out of the training program at various rates where the USAF had firm start and graduation dates. That made it hard to line up basic and advanced flying training courses between the services. The idea was to have a common basic course and then branch out to advanced training. USAF fighter and bomber students would go to the T-38, Navy fighter guys would go to the T-45, USAF transport guys would go to the T-1, and USAF and Navy C-130 and P-3 guys would go through the T-44. The USAF C-130 guys who trained in the T-44 had a hard time hacking the C-130 course, especially the tactical training portion. I don't know if they continued the T-44 portion for USAF guys.

As we were doing this, I had just finished building detailed models that showed how much it cost to train a USAF student in the various courses. As I started working with the Navy, I asked to see their costing models but they didn't have any. So I worked with them to develop costing models. The end result was we found that it cost about the same per graduate, though the approaches were entirely different. The end result, fully trained aviators ready for the next level of training, was about the same.

The powers that be thought there was a lot of duplication of effort in pilot training between the USAF and USN, and that is why they were forcing integration. Initially, many of us hoped the USAF would benefit from reduced regulations while the Navy would gain efficiency in their program. What seemed to happen was the Navy has to learn to deal with more regulations and the USAF lost efficiency.

The truth was both services had refined and cost effective programs for creating the kind of aviators they needed. I don't know if any of that integration in pilot training still occurs.

The best integration I saw was in combat. The Navy and Marines were able to start hostilities in a significant but limited way while the USAF and Army got in place. Then all the air assets were OPCON to the USAF for maximum efficiency and coordination. No longer would the Vietnam debacle occur, where the USAF would hit a target in the morning and the USN would hit the same target in the afternoon (or vice-versa)--with neither knowing what the other was doing.

Because of that the Navy doesn't get as much OCA and DCA as it used to. Raptors and F-15Cs are purpose built for air superiority, while Strike Eagles, F-18s, AV-8bs, F-16s, A-10s, B-1s, and B-52s do the ground attack well. It's not that F-18s and F-16s can't do air superiority, sometimes they do. Also when we put F-18s on a land base they can carry more weapons and/or fuel and become even more capable.

After watching the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds many times, I came to the conclusion that the Navy show was more showy crowd pleasing while the USAF show was more impressive from a pilot perspective. The T-Birds would rapidly and precisely change formation positions instantly while the Angels weren't as good at that. However, precision changes aren't as showy as inverted fly bys with the gear extended.