I don't want to get into any kind of p***ing match, flame throwing, etc. I'm just a simple, retired engineer that uses numbers to draw conlusions upon occasion. Numbers plus anecdotal evidence (empirical if you will) usually shed light on the performance of most rifles and cartridges. I'd like an explanation from the cognoscenti, please. I see the .45-70 disparaged quite frequently on this site reGR. On the other hand the 450/400-3" has a concensus as an acceptable DGR. Here's my confusion. The 450-400-3" puts a 400 gr. bullet out the muzzle at 2050 fps (Hornady data). The .45-70 puts a 400+ gr. (mine was a 425 gr. cast GC) bullet out the muzzle at 2000 fps. I recognize the .050 diameter difference, and the 50 fps difference, but come on...a heavily loaded .45-70 should be considered the equal (for all intents and purposes) of the 450/400-3". Just the other day I read in Field and Stream about a gentlemen (assumed) who used a 45-70 (Marlin 1895 I believe) against a Cape Buffalo. The 400 gr bullet passed completely through both shoulders of the bull and still killed a cow that was unseen standing on the other side of the bull. The second shot passed from the rump all the way through the paunch and brisket and was recovered under teh skin. How much more penetration do you think you need? I'm not going to hunt DG with a 45-70, and in fact sold mine not too many months ago. A 425 gr. cast GC at 2000 fps out of a 7# rifle is not what I sould consider as "fun". Nuff said. Curious as to why so many throw rocks at the .45-70...DuaneB

Get your popcorn readey and grab a 6 pack its going to be a flaming thread.

it will be a flame war, but......your right, it is the equal, you can buy rounds of 405 grains at 2050 fps. what's the difference other than the edge going to the 45/70 on bullet diameter.


that said, i recently read an article in sports afield i think, where the "doctari" said the 450 marlin wasn't suitable for buff with it's 350 grain bullet at 2100fps or whatever it is. he was right, but you'd think someone that knowledgeable would know how many other rounds are available and the differences therein. not every round out of a 458wm or a 375h&h is suitable for buff either.

REF: GUNS & AMMO JAN 2008 ISSUE

AN EXCELLENT OVERVIEW OF 45-70 BULLETS WITH A "BROAD MEPLAT " .... LARGE FLAT NOSE AND THEIR INCREDIBLE STRIKING POWER.

ONE SHOT KILLS ON RHINO, CAPE BUFF AND LARGE PLAINSGAME TOO.

"BIG AND SLOW IS THE WAY TO GO "

IF YOUR LIBRARY DOESN'T HAVE GUNS & AMMO YOU CAN PROBABLY READ IT AT BARNES & NOBLE OR OTHER BOOKSELLERS.

Many moons ago I was near thrown off the forum for raising the topic.....

Even the 450/400 has considerably less (500 ft.lbs) ME than a 375H&H. Here's a beautiful double in 45/70, but it is probably regulated for standard loads.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun...sp?hierarchyId=10473

<i'll be nice>

lets assume we are dealing with jacketed conventional bullets, of IDENTICAL construction.

(you might not realize that the 450/400 bullet is .411, not .458)

the "perfect" sectional density for all north american game is .250 (because parker ackley told me so)

Why? Because that's a ballance point between blown up bullets and an expanded bullet, but either way, expands and you hope both quickly and retains bullet weight.

a bullet should have 70%+ retained weight, in a single chunk, with the jacket retained. any less is bullet failure. nothing really to do with a dead deer.. deer don't "stress" a bullet and are not dangerous. read winchester material on bullet use

now, when you use CONVENTIONAL bullets, for large dangerous game, an sd of .300 or higher is required... if you are using copper based bullets, the berry smith formula modification takes effect, .275 ..

So, a .458 bullet, at 400gr is .272, and a .411 400gr is .338 .. that NEARLY 25% difference...

to get a .458 bullet to have an SD of .338, it would have to weight 496 grains ....

or, to compare the other way, a .411 bullet at .275SD would weigh 325gr ...

So, now we have the stage set, to be the same SD, and have simular bullet performance on EXACTLY the same construction ....
a .411 400gr would be comparable to a .458 496gr at the same speed...

or

a .411 325gr bullet would be comparable to a 400gr .458 bullet...

I realize this probably doesn't make sense, but the bullet performance is critical to compare them. Which answers your question...

if you want to compare a 45/70 with a 450/400, you would have to have a 496gr .458 OR a 325gr .411 bullet to compare them apples to apple.

the 45/70 can NOT throw a 500gr bullet at 2200fps ... but the 450/400 can throw a 400gr at that speed...

bullet weight is like saying "oh, my car has a V8 too" ... when one is a 4.7 liter 130HP smog motor and the other is a 300HP caddy northstar ... just no comparison.

jeffe

all that being said, i am building a 45/120 double rifle

SECTIONAL DENSITY!

But an engineer seeking empirical truth would have already known that.

Here's a great web site to plug in bullet weight, caliber, and velocity and get automatic calculations of ME, SD, "Efficacy"(like TKO) and E*SD(like PI).
http://billstclair.com/energy.html

..............

Sectional density...that's where the emperical information comes in. Bullet construction can have as much to do with penetration as SD. Given identical construction, the higher SD will penetrate farther, lose velocity slower, etc etc. On the other hand, if the bullet goes all the way through the Cape buffalo, through both shoulders, and butt to brisket (including through the paunch) I come to the conslusion that the 400 gr .458 @ 2000 fps has sufficient density and energy to be a DGR cartridge. I'm still listening (snide comments will be henceforth ignored) for some sort of evidence of why the .45-70 isn't considered to be an adequate DGR cartridge. I'll concede that it isn't a stopper. But then again neither the referenced .375 or 450/400 are considered stoppers either.

With the bullet weight and velocity you are describing, there would be extremely high pressure in the 45-70. By the estimates I have seen, over 50,000 CUP, which limits your rifle choice to a Ruger #1 or a very strong bolt rifle.

Any time you increase velocity over the "standard" for any cartridge, you are going to get increased pressure, increased recoil and increased barrel torque.

The pressure levels we are talking about here for the 45-70 would not be desirable for a double rifle. In addition, the 450-400 will shoot a heavier bullet at the same velocity at a much lower pressure.

I don't want to speak for Jeffe, but that is probably one of the reasons he opted for the 120 case versus the 70 case in the 45. Is it not a universal rule, but generally, larger case capacity in the same caliber round tends to result in lower pressures than a smaller case capacity.

Jim - I totally agree with you re: pressures. In fact, I have to wonder about bolt thrust with that size case head. Ackley seemed to prove that bolt thrust was a non-factor by over loading a 30-30 with the locking lugs removed and the bolt didn't move. Still, one test doesn't prove anything....I'm not trying to compare a 45-70 double vs a 450/400 double, or any other double cartridge for that matter. Heavy loaded Siamese mausers, Marlin 1895, new manufacture 1886's in 45-70 all will handle the kinds of pressures we are talking about. I don't plan on hunting DGR any time soon. Most likely never. If I do manage to hunt DG, I'll either use my 9.3 depending on the PH for backup if I make a lousy shot, OR I'll acquire a DR suitably chambered, most likely a 450 NE. Anyway, thanks for the responses. DuaneB

quote:

Originally posted by DuaneB:
I come to the conslusion that the 400 gr .458 @ 2000 fps has sufficient density and energy to be a DGR cartridge. .

I disagree, no further point in wasting our time discussing it

quote:

I don't plan on hunting DGR any time soon.

Duane,

Then why all the worry and fuss over it?

I've always said and I say now if you want to use a .45-70 for DG hunting go for it. Nobody here is going to stop you.

But if you are not even contemplating a DG hunt what's the deal? Why worry about it?

Jim, my old Speer manual says their heavy .45-70 loads run under 35,000 CUP. That's 400 grains at 2100 fps. They do say the loads are only for mauser 98, Ruger No. 1, and Browning single shot actions, but I think that's due to back thrust, not due to pressure.

That doesn't mean I would choose a .45-70 for a trip to Jurassic Park. The .45-70 might be adequate, but why settle for adequate?

Why do we do this, that is, flirt with the "line" so to speak. JACK

LOTT made his famous improvement to the .458 Win Mag when

IT was not reliable. Now with new powders there's no evidence

to make one feel it is any less than a 450 NE 3 1/4. So on some

occasions the 45 - 70 penetrates well on DG and the event ends

as it should. BUT why risk an unwanted result. The 450/400 is a

very strong penetrator by all accounts. It is proven by many as
a safe choice for DG. The 45 - 70, not ALWAYS...

DuaneB

I have a 45/70, and I like it.
I also have a 9,3x74R Chapuis, a 450/400 3 1/4", and a 450 No2.

Jeffesso's sectional density post bears looking at again.

True bullet construction does come into play, but if you assume equal bullet construction, then SD is the over riding factor.

I have killed buff and elephant with the 9,3 the 400, and the 450 No2, and I can assure you that your 9,3x74R is a much better African DG rifle than a 45/70.

Especially if you bump into an elephant.

Now the big 5 can and has been killed with a 45/70, I have no doubt that I could do it. The big 5 has also been killed with the little .256 Mannlicher as well.

Just because it HAS been done in the past, does not mean it SHOULD be done now.

Hunting conditions, and game laws and ethics thve changed.

Keep the 45/70 for North American hunting and get a 450/400 Double to go with your 9,3. Then you will have a great pair of hunting double rifles.

quote:

"BIG AND SLOW IS THE WAY TO GO "

Nonsense. Drive a properly constructed bullet FASTER and it will out penetrate and "out" everything else the slower bullet will do. A 500gr 458@ 2400 plus vs the same bullet@ 2100 or less. Try it. jorge

quote:

On the other hand, if the bullet goes all the way through the Cape buffalo, through both shoulders, and butt to brisket (including through the paunch) I come to the conslusion that the 400 gr .458 @ 2000 fps has sufficient density and energy to be a DGR cartridge.

Here lies the problem with this statement: I have shot buff with 500gr .458" solids at 2050fps and they exit on near perfectly broadside shots, other than that they have not exited. On front and rear quartering shots penetration was adequate but none to spare. Slower and lighter just isn't going to do the job, at least not reliably.

Pick up velocity by about 100fps and then the 500's are just about perfect.

Flat nose solids affect results, allowing a lighter, 450gr, but faster, by about 50fps, bullet to exceed the 500gr round nose performance at 2150fps. Slow the flat nose 450grers down by ??? and I don't know the outcome. Lighten it by ??? and I don't know the outcome. Slow it down by 200fps and lighten it by 50grs at the same time, I don't know the outcome, but I firmly believe its a recipe for trouble.

BTW, I am sure what Jorge says is true, but my choice there would be to use the energy (and recoil) to push a 570gr 500 bullet at 2150fps.

JPK

why come?
well, here's why

Thanks for posting that, Jeff. The one in the middle is a real pipsqueak!

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
REF: GUNS & AMMO JAN 2008 ISSUE

AN EXCELLENT OVERVIEW OF 45-70 BULLETS WITH A "BROAD MEPLAT " .... LARGE FLAT NOSE AND THEIR INCREDIBLE STRIKING POWER.

ONE SHOT KILLS ON RHINO, CAPE BUFF AND LARGE PLAINSGAME TOO.

"BIG AND SLOW IS THE WAY TO GO "

IF YOUR LIBRARY DOESN'T HAVE GUNS & AMMO YOU CAN PROBABLY READ IT AT BARNES & NOBLE OR OTHER BOOKSELLERS.

TOM, you were sounding credible till you said your info was from Guns&Ammo magazine!

Hey Tom loose the upper case print! That is considered yelling on the net, and is impolite!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Thanks for posting that, Jeff. The one in the middle is a real pipsqueak!

It is, when compared to real big bore cartridges that are considered suitable for dangerous game! I love the old 45-70, and I just wish people wuold stop trying to make it into something it is not, nor was it ever intended to be! Simply love it for what it is, and if you want to hunt dangerous BIG game with it, do so, but do not say it is a true dangerous game cartridge, because it is not, nor will it ever be! A 22 Hornet will kill a cape buffalo, but that doesn't make a 22 hornet a Cape buffalo cartridge, by a very long shot! The same goes for the 45-70!

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

I don't plan on hunting DGR any time soon.

Duane,

Then why all the worry and fuss over it?

I've always said and I say now if you want to use a .45-70 for DG hunting go for it. Nobody here is going to stop you.

But if you are not even contemplating a DG hunt what's the deal? Why worry about it?

Well said... a 7mm can kill an ele, thus a 45/70 can too. It simply boils down to determining the subjective line of what provides sufficient performance on shots that aren't perfectly executed and that are taken under testy conditions.

I've never really seen that anyone has empirically defined that line, and as in many situations, experience and past performance serve as the best control. It seems that the 450/400 has time and again proven to be a sufficient DG rifle, and the 45/70 has not.

You're argument is empirically based, and aside from the SD point made by Jeff, I don't know that citing anything other than past performance will serve as better reasoning for said contention.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Hey Tom loose the upper case print! That is considered yelling on the net, and is impolite!

He's been asked for about a year and 4 months to stop that, and complains that he's been asked