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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

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My question was: would you choose to take a 243 on a northern trophy mule deer hunt? Regardless what your good wife used for her hunt - I guess your answer should have been no - if you have already chosen to take 300wby, 35Wh and 375 to choose from!!

Deal is, I don't use a .243. I rarely use Lora's .257 Robert's, but when I have used it I have found no fault with it. I don't like or own a .270/.308 or .30-06, does that mean because I would not choose one of those to go on such a hunt with? NO!

If I used or owned a .243 and after seeing the results over the years that others have had using the caliber, I would have no qualms at all using it on a trophy Mule Deer hunt, ANYWHERE in North America. Within the working limits of my abilities and the cartridges limitations, I would not hesitate using it on a Trophy Mule Deer hunt.

Regardless of how big a mule deer is, they are flesh and blood and a properly placed bullet from a .243 will kill one just as dead as my Whelen or .375. I chose the rifles that I like and use, none of them will kill anything, including Mule Deer any deader than anything else.

I didn't choose a lot of calibers, are you trying to say that a .270 will not kill a Mule Deer? I am not, but I did not choose it! Why would I choose a caliber that I do not own?

Your argument has became so convoluted that you are grabbing at any straw you can to prove a point that you can not prove. I chose the .257 Robert's for Lora, because that is what she is used to using. If she had been used to using a .243 that is what she would have used. I chose from among the rifles I own and like to use.

All of us get your point, you do not think the .243 is powerful enough to kill a "Trophy Canadian Mule Deer", and you can not understand why folks are not agreeing with you. That is YOUR problem.

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BTW - Do you have any actual experience with that specific caliber on big game animals?

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Usual and customary AR vitriol aside, am still following this with interest. Am intrigued by the divergent experiences with monometal/deep penetrating small caliber bullets.

Suspect some of this relates to a statistical reality, ie., that each event (kill) is independent.

Let's say the first deer you hit in the boiler room with a .243 NP travels about 125 yds with almost zero blood trail before expiring. Let's say you had more than a few anxious moments with this, your son's first, because it happened in thick enough stuff to walk less than 10 feet from a carcass and not see it. Would you use the .243 NP a second time?

OTOH, if your first 99 deer shot with a .243 NP were either DRT.....or.....traveled up to 150 yds in wide open spaces.......would you even think to second-guess your 100th kill with the .243 NP?

See, I don't think it matters whether you've taken 1 or 100 deer if your first experience is strongly negative. How many more deer would I have to kill more cleanly so to develop confidence in the .243 NP?

OTOH, 99 positive experiences do not alter the possibility of a negative experience on the 100th. But in that event you might arguably remain confident in the .243 NP.

Our preferences are forged by our experiences. Our experiences are not impeachable, but our preferences don't always bear out.

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Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I have seen a poorly constructed 180gn RN fail to penetrate the chest cavity on a 200lb deer - some would say that is impossible but it happens.

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but then some of these AR members are apparently infallible marksmen, completely immune to the variability of animal behaviour and physiology.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

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but then some of these AR members are apparently infallible marksmen, completely immune to the variability of animal behaviour and physiology.

I have shot enough stuff with enough different brands/styles of bullets and calibers, to be a disciple of the "Every Animal And Every Bullet, Is Different".

My best one, and this actually happened, was a smallish 8 point white tail buck that I got a good behind the shoulder shot on at about 45 yards with my .375 H&H and a 250 grain Barnes "X" bullet. At the shot I could see blood and bits of tissue hit up in the tree he was standing in front of. He clamped his tail to his ass and ran like hell. He covered about 60 yards and fell over a 20 foot plus creek bank. Left a hell of a blood trail. When I got to him his nose was touching the edge of the water and blood was dripping out of his nose into the water.

I rolled him over to field dress him and when I cut into his chest cavity, what was left of the heart was hanging in a bloody sack of membrane, the whole top third of the heart was gone, it was not connected to anything except that membrane. The exit hole was a little bigger than a quarter. I still use Barnes Bullets to this day.

Conversely I stopped using Hornady bullets because I had too many of them completely disintegrate on a hit to the bones of the shoulder. So back to the original question, were I invited on a "Trophy Canadian Mule Deer Hunt" would I purposely choose a .243 for the hunt, Yes, if I owned one, and I would be using the heaviest Barnes bullet that the gun shot the best.

The more I view this discussion, the more it appears that the issue is not the capabilities of the .243 as it is the choice of bullet, and in that case, I have NEVER understood why hunters will spend a whole lot of $$$$$$ on a rifle/scope rig and on guided hunts and then rely on Bargain Basement ammo.

To me the MOST important ingredient for a successful hunt, is having a quality bullet that will get the job that needs to be done, done.

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Some people were proponents for larger magnum cartridges, but the sheep guides recommend bringing what you could shoot the best.

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Originally posted by Dogleg:
You might have trouble beating it by much, especially isfthe blend of characteristics matches what you want out of a bullet. What you can do is get different bullet performance that you may or may not like more.

We had a fairly prolonged period with a stupid amount of deer tags and three hunters in the family. Several truck-loads of mulies got shot per year with .257s and 100 Grain Ballistic-tips. Results tended to be spectacular, but 100 grain Hornadys or Partitions were right up there. The 100 grain TSXS would likely be the best for shooting through 3 deer at a time or moose hunting, but we found that they killed slower than softer, frangible bullets. Quit using them after awhile. The 80 grain TTSX is proving to be interesting, they open faster and achieve close enough to 4000 fps that some might just round it up.

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Originally posted by graybird:
I'll be kiss my ass if 0.014" doesn't make all the difference when using an 80 grain TTSX, or a 100 grain "insert bullet here".

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Originally posted by Dogleg:
You might have trouble beating it by much, especially isfthe blend of characteristics matches what you want out of a bullet. What you can do is get different bullet performance that you may or may not like more.

We had a fairly prolonged period with a stupid amount of deer tags and three hunters in the family. Several truck-loads of mulies got shot per year with .257s and 100 Grain Ballistic-tips. Results tended to be spectacular, but 100 grain Hornadys or Partitions were right up there. The 100 grain TSXS would likely be the best for shooting through 3 deer at a time or moose hunting, but we found that they killed slower than softer, frangible bullets. Quit using them after awhile. The 80 grain TTSX is proving to be interesting, they open faster and achieve close enough to 4000 fps that some might just round it up.

Not to mention, now we have truck loads of tags versus just one as was stated earlier.

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Originally posted by Dogleg:
Oh, and Missouri.....

"I wouldn't take 1/4 the ammo

I would take more next time.....I took 70 rounds last time for my wife and I

I enjoyed shooting hyrax, vervets and baboons with my wife and PH and as a gift we left our brass and un-used rounds behind.....this ammo was greatly appreciated "


You seem curiously judgemental for someone who has no problem shooting up primates, on guided hunts in a foreign land, paying for the privilege, planning for more ammo next time to kill more and then posting it on the internet. Was it the killing or shooting you enjoyed? I quite understand that even oddly human looking things can be agricultural pests, but I doubt that your motives are that pure.

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Originally posted by Dogleg:
Yes, after repeatly insulting me about volume shooting of pest species, under guided circumstances it turns out that he likes doing the same thing.
You should look up "interesting," before you decide what I meant.

Crazy Horse, I have no idea what you are talking about. Racism? You lost me there.

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Originally posted by Dogleg:

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Originally posted by graybird:
I'll be kiss my ass if 0.014" doesn't make all the difference when using an 80 grain TTSX, or a 100 grain "insert bullet here".

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Originally posted by Dogleg:
You might have trouble beating it by much, especially isfthe blend of characteristics matches what you want out of a bullet. What you can do is get different bullet performance that you may or may not like more.

We had a fairly prolonged period with a stupid amount of deer tags and three hunters in the family. Several truck-loads of mulies got shot per year with .257s and 100 Grain Ballistic-tips. Results tended to be spectacular, but 100 grain Hornadys or Partitions were right up there. The 100 grain TSXS would likely be the best for shooting through 3 deer at a time or moose hunting, but we found that they killed slower than softer, frangible bullets. Quit using them after awhile. The 80 grain TTSX is proving to be interesting, they open faster and achieve close enough to 4000 fps that some might just round it up.

Not to mention, now we have truck loads of tags versus just one as was stated earlier.

While its flattering that that you are now searching through my posts trying to educate yourself; is that really what you took away from it?
If you do want to know why I have a different opinion between a .257 Weatherby and a .243 Win you might want to start with 500 fps difference in velocity instead of the .014" in diameter.

Are the truckloads of tags something you filled, or is it like your mule deer buck tag you never filled?

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You seem curiously judgemental for someone who has no problem shooting up primates, on guided hunts in a foreign land, paying for the privilege, planning for more ammo next time to kill more and then posting it on the internet. Was it the killing or shooting you enjoyed? I quite understand that even oddly human looking things can be agricultural pests, but I doubt that your motives are that pure.

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Originally posted by graybird:

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Originally posted by Dogleg:

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Originally posted by graybird:
I'll be kiss my ass if 0.014" doesn't make all the difference when using an 80 grain TTSX, or a 100 grain "insert bullet here".

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Originally posted by Dogleg:
You might have trouble beating it by much, especially isfthe blend of characteristics matches what you want out of a bullet. What you can do is get different bullet performance that you may or may not like more.

We had a fairly prolonged period with a stupid amount of deer tags and three hunters in the family. Several truck-loads of mulies got shot per year with .257s and 100 Grain Ballistic-tips. Results tended to be spectacular, but 100 grain Hornadys or Partitions were right up there. The 100 grain TSXS would likely be the best for shooting through 3 deer at a time or moose hunting, but we found that they killed slower than softer, frangible bullets. Quit using them after awhile. The 80 grain TTSX is proving to be interesting, they open faster and achieve close enough to 4000 fps that some might just round it up.

Not to mention, now we have truck loads of tags versus just one as was stated earlier.

While its flattering that that you are now searching through my posts trying to educate yourself; is that really what you took away from it?
If you do want to know why I have a different opinion between a .257 Weatherby and a .243 Win you might want to start with 500 fps difference in velocity instead of the .014" in diameter.

Are the truckloads of tags something you filled, or is it like your mule deer buck tag you never filled?

Don't flatter yourself there Dogleg. I merely was reading another post within the top six current postings on this forum. No searching, just reading.

Trust me, I've already figured you out and moved on. Funny how now it's speed that kills, not the bullet. 3400+ won't kill a deer sufficiently but 3900+ will .. Got it! You're a hoot!

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Dogleg, for your reading pleasure.

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You seem curiously judgemental for someone who has no problem shooting up primates, on guided hunts in a foreign land, paying for the privilege, planning for more ammo next time to kill more and then posting it on the internet. Was it the killing or shooting you enjoyed? I quite understand that even oddly human looking things can be agricultural pests, but I doubt that your motives are that pure.

[B]I quite understand that even oddly human looking things can be agricultural pests, but I doubt that your motives are that pure.

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Originally posted by Dogleg:

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Originally posted by graybird:

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Originally posted by Dogleg:

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Originally posted by graybird:
I'll be kiss my ass if 0.014" doesn't make all the difference when using an 80 grain TTSX, or a 100 grain "insert bullet here".

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Originally posted by Dogleg:
You might have trouble beating it by much, especially isfthe blend of characteristics matches what you want out of a bullet. What you can do is get different bullet performance that you may or may not like more.

We had a fairly prolonged period with a stupid amount of deer tags and three hunters in the family. Several truck-loads of mulies got shot per year with .257s and 100 Grain Ballistic-tips. Results tended to be spectacular, but 100 grain Hornadys or Partitions were right up there. The 100 grain TSXS would likely be the best for shooting through 3 deer at a time or moose hunting, but we found that they killed slower than softer, frangible bullets. Quit using them after awhile. The 80 grain TTSX is proving to be interesting, they open faster and achieve close enough to 4000 fps that some might just round it up.

Not to mention, now we have truck loads of tags versus just one as was stated earlier.

While its flattering that that you are now searching through my posts trying to educate yourself; is that really what you took away from it?
If you do want to know why I have a different opinion between a .257 Weatherby and a .243 Win you might want to start with 500 fps difference in velocity instead of the .014" in diameter.

Are the truckloads of tags something you filled, or is it like your mule deer buck tag you never filled?

Don't flatter yourself there Dogleg. I merely was reading another post within the top six current postings on this forum. No searching, just reading.

Trust me, I've already figured you out and moved on. Funny how now it's speed that kills, not the bullet. 3400+ won't kill a deer sufficiently but 3900+ will .. Got it! You're a hoot!

I don't think you've moved on at all, since obviously you're still here. Show me where I said 3400 wont kill deer and 3900 will.

And about that truckload tags, did you fill them? Otherwise its just like the experience you have from the muley you never shot.

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Originally posted by Dogleg:
I don't get a special season, or an extra tag, or a few points added to a rack.

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Originally posted by Dogleg:
Several truck-loads of mulies got shot per year with .257s and 100 Grain Ballistic-tips.

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Originally posted by Dogleg:
Would it be too outlandish to consider that a 70 pound doe or 100 pound buck in Texas at 100 yards might be a teeny bit different from a 350 pound northern buck at long range? Oh, I know it seems crazy at first, but it's something to think about.