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Friendly folks out here on the internet, pleasure to make your acquaintance too Ted.  It is admittedly news to me internet credibility is a thing, and you must forgive me for being old fashioned but I've actually hunted with Dogleg. I've yet to make Randall's acquaintance, though I'll read his posts with interest. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all!  | |||
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I think the issue here, is most who say they dislike the 243 is also those who say it is nothing but a varmint rifle, because you can load up some varmint bullets and go whack a pile of them. But, it can also be said for those mighty 7mm and .308 cartridges, too. Therefore, using that same ideology, any 7mm or .308 rifle is nothing more than a varmint caliber. However, but the proper bullet in there and you suddenly have a very handy deer rifle. The very same can be said for a 243. You put the proper bullet from a 243 into the lungs of a deer, there isn't a deer on this planet that can handle it. I can only think of one deer I've killed that made it further than about 100 yards from the point of impact with my 243. It was my bad and I hit that buck in the liver. Tracked him about 300-400 yards and found a dead deer. Now, you might think this buck wouldn't have bled a drop, but I had two young fine hunters about 9-10 years old do the tracking for me, at a steady pace, mind you, with a portion of that over barren wheat ground. Tracking a wounded animal is part of a hunter's skill set. And, when people start throwing around stupid numbers when it comes to the number of animals they've killed in a single trip or year, it is nothing more than a pecker pulling contest then. Who gives a flying flip about those numbers, I bet you still don't have the experience others have using the rifle at hand in this thread on said topic. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Angus, I have no doubt Dogleg might be a good guy to the core. But, when someone starts throwing bragging rights numbers into the discussion, it turns people off. Just because a guy kills a pile of cull animals doesn't make them an expert on all things hunting related. I killed a pile of prairie dogs over the past few summers, I guess I'm an expert on double rifles now, lol. Dang it, I didn't keep count though, back to not knowing anything about double rifles. I find it amusing when people bash a particular application without extensive knowledge of that application. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you, too! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by graybird: Oh, so most your 399 animals you shot were culls sitting around a water hole, or something. As you put it, sitting in a single position. Now, that is some bragging rights! QUOTE] Single position means getting within range of a herd, then killing some or all of them before they escape. The old time bison shooters called it a "stand", a word that has taken on a different meaning now. I could have said "at one time" or "from one place" or "out of the same herd" but adopted the term I heard used. | |||
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Or stated your point of dislike in the Winchester Six and moved on without pulling your dick out but that didn't happen I will be sure and take notes from now on........btw.......funny but I don't own a 6 Folks who know me will probably mention I tend to lean toward....heck drag, drop kick and never oil my favorite 308 Springfield made in NY and glassed from Oregon Folks ask about beef......they are told by AR experts to eat pork and should be eating chicken..... But as for me.....I'm not about to preach to AR members on how they should or should not do anything.....period.....or tell them how credible I am by showing you the back of my baseball card "stats" Angus......the pleasure is all mine .........and I may also know a guy or 3 or 6 that can laugh at horrible weather and pack out game on their back miles from camp Ridiculous ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Despite a bit of a startling entry into the forum, I'm actually sure I'd like everyone here, in person. Ted's a bit terse but suspect that'll wear off if we became "tarp buddies". On the .243, it isn't my first choice for Canada but it's perhaps a little different here. There's the real possibility you may use it to fend off a bear, and I don't view the .243 as the best of any dimension. It will however reliably kill deer of reasonable size, I won't argue that, but I'd also be forced to argue it isn't the best of any dimension either. The whole "no such thing as more dead" argument has flaws from a guide's perspective. It excels in light recoil and that has many benefits. On that note, I'd like to think I've seen a general warming trend, not only in the weather outside sixty degrees north but in the thread here too! Happy New Year folks, and a good hunting season to come in 2016 to you... even if it's with a .243!  | |||
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Alright, I just caught the next ted post now. Perhaps I was overly optimistic in guessing I'd enjoy him in person, too. G'night for now gentlemen, my well wishes for the season ahead stand, but I wouldn't complain if ted misses. I kid, I kid... ish.  | |||
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I initially gave my impression of the .243, that it worked but with too many runners.So does a 45 cal round ball and an arrow. I also mentioned that there isn't a single thing that it can do better than larger/faster cartridges and some things not as well so what exactly is the point beyond recoil? Beyond that, why should I care what someone else uses? I don't. When someone brought up copper bullets I gave my thoughts and a sliver of the background I have with them. If that sliver happens to be 5 lifetimes to someone else his hurt feelings are his problem. If one of my mornings happens to involve more killing (we are talking about killing right?) than his decade, it is likewise his problem. I still don't care. Ask questions, I'll give factual answers as Iknow and believe. I don't care. Now, when someone accuses me of being a bullshitter I start caring. Not much, but enough to offer the references asked for. | |||
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I am glad you cleared up your numbers and as to how you came about them Anyone with a checkbook and the urge to kill hundreds of animals only to feed birds....... and ego......and keep score.....may do just that and by all means please do No doubt your a killer........you proved it I have yet to feel the need to go on a cull shooting vacation but give those who do a standing ovation My hunting is regulated to state and federal bag limits and a j-o-b........ ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Sometimes, when killing/kill ability/suitability for killing purpose/methods of killing is the discussion you're going to have to listen to what the killers have to say. | |||
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I'm glad your ego doesn't get in the way when schooling the minions! You sly dog you! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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I'll be your Huckleberry - what do you need to know? I am wondering though why you bothered to ask him to 'prove it', when you seem so intend on shouting down any possible insight that Dogleg may have gleaned, while dispatching all of those critters. I have met guys who spout bullshit about the field experience, to make themselves look like a hero - but Dogleg Mike isn't one of those guys. Having spent an appreciable amount of time in camp with the guy - he is generally the guy asking questions and picking other people's brains to add to his own knowledge. Half-arsed or second hand anecdotes don't count for anything. But if you want a good healthy discussion on downrange ballistics in the hunting field - it will be a two-way discussion with Mike. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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That's nice to hear and I'm glad you have took some time to say it.....Mike has come across to us students as anything but what you described Thank's for the help
But statements such as these are anything but what you state he might be Odd......buffalo culling Sounds like a pay to shoot slaughter fest No doubt a fun trip...BTW dogleg stated these animals were killed and left to lay A shame ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Nope he even keeps an accurate score card of animals killed on these cull hunts Almost like a contest..........amazing what money can buy ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Well what can I do to help - is there a discussion going on here or something else?
He wasn't just talking about himself, there are plenty of people with similar experience. As for the culling, it is what it is - excess animals and hunters willing to pay to do 'the job' - a win-win for everyone, except the animals themselves, depending on your perspective. The animals are not wasted - they have some immediate use, or fed to the forest critters or simply returned to the earth, as nutrients; the earth from where they sprang. As for the participants - well they vary quite a bit. Most are hunter/firearm enthusiasts - some dont care about numbers and just want to extract the most stalking experience, yes some just want to kill too - but they are in the minority. Most, like Mike, are hunters who want to test their equipment and components and their shooting and hunting skills - pack as much activity into into a week and extract the most out of it! There are many, many different 'types' who participate - most are welcome. Anyhow - there is much more I can write on the subject - but for now a New Years Eve party awaits - yes it is 5.00pm on NYE here already - after all - we are so far ahead of y'all!!  Take care A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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It is the outfitters who keep the 'score card' actually - for the benefit of the landowners. No different to anywhere else in the world. For the participants it is usually just a matter of record. It is for Mike - no matter if it is 50, 100, 200 - it (that point) is what it is, nothing more than a statistic and a pack of empty brass. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Please explain to me how culling buff in Australia has any relevance to a 243 use on deer. When Dogleg comes on here enlightening us minions on his personal use and experiences with said 243 and deer, then I'll listen to what he has to say. Until then, his spoof is nothing more than gloating. Or, any of his supporters for that matter. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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I didn't expect a 243 on deer thread to be more explosive than a 223 on deer thread.  | |||
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I have had the opportunity to see Dogleg shoot a Elephant. We have spent time together on the rifle range both in practice and at formal shooting matches. None of these venues offer any concealment for a Bullshitter.Mike is the most experienced Hunter,Marksmen I have met.I do pay attention to what Mike has to say and it mirrors my own observations.Most of us will never get the field experience that Mike has.People who do have it won,t share it because they do not want to get into a mudslinging match like this. | |||
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Just bizarre really that a couple of members start 'laying into' another member for no apparent reason. I thought you were just drunk last night - and gave you the benefit of the doubt.... but apparently you aren't capable of any reasonable discourse. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Yup, had a mountain dew yesterday. Give me some of your experiences with the 243 use on deer. I did kill a bunch of prairie dogs with a 17 HMR over the last few years, guess that makes me an expert hand at killing buff in Australia, too. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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End of year insanity. Unless the buff are being culled with a .243, and even then it is irrelevant.
Neither did most of the rest of the folks responding to the question. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Ray Atkinson, I have enjoyed your posts for years and I consider you a been there done that guy. I find your posts on the .243 somewhat contradictory though. The 250-300 (a fine round) works 110% of the time, yet bigger is better? Do the bigger ones skin it for you? The 250-3000 leaves a blood trail (110% of time) and the .243 doesn't? We are only talking a coat of paint difference. BTW I use to be your neighbor almost. I lived on Filer Ave over in Twin Falls. I didn't move because you don't like the .243. | |||
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The real question is why in the world would anyone use a .243 on deer? They still make .223 and .222 and perhaps those two are becoming obsolete as some folks now using .204 Ruger. | |||
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Ironically my first real deer rifle WAS a 243 and I did quite well with it with good bullets placed correctly - on deer up to about 200lbs. I had always owned 308 rifles as well but they weren't really set up for serious deer stalking - but when I did get one properly kitted-out the 243 immediately became obsolete for that purpose - there was absolutely zero advantage to using the smaller caliber. Not in ballistics, cost, noise, handling - nothing.... and a 30 cal was far better suited for hunting the larger species of deer that we have (sambar, red stag, etc). Indeed the only rifle to ever give me a Weatherby eyebrow was my first damn 243!! (a true but silly story of course). These days I prefer a 30-06, no particular reason given I dont have the need to use the heaviest bullets - and I would be just as happy doing all my deer hunting with a 308 - but I do love my 30-06's. Deer in Australia range in size from 80lb hog deer up to sambar stags which top 500lb's. Sambar are very popular and their largest concentration are mainly in mountain country (Victoria) - I guess akin to country you would find in the USA Pac north-west - thick, steep, rugged. There are lots of deer and lots of hunters. In that province the legal minimum for sambar is 270W with (with IIRC) 130gn projectiles. A lot of people don't agree with this requirement - and it is true that there are some great smaller calibers that would work quite well on those deer, particularly with modern projectiles like TSX - but the minimum has been maintained for good reasons. It is not to limit those few players who are skilled enough to get 100% kill rate with smaller cal's - it is to educate and guide the masses in the right direction, ultimately to provide good animal welfare outcomes to protect the 'sport'. In the next state (the state where I reside, NSW) - this minimum caliber for sambar is not a legal requirement under the game laws but a 'recomended caliber minimum'. There are arguments both ways which state 'got it right' - I am not prepared to comment on that but suffice to say the minimum requirements are generally well accepted by hunters - and I have never heard of any hunters being prosecuted for using smaller cal's in Victoria - but I suppose someone must have at some stage (probably only as an extra offence added to poaching violations. So anyhow - I thought this might be of interest as a case-study - the main point being that hunters themselves (not government officials) decided that the 243 would be unsuitable overall for hunting those strong, large-bodied deer (sambar) in heavy cover - and included such provisions in wildlife regulations. Those same states actually name the 243 (with 100gr bullets I believe) as the minimum for those 80lb hog deer. To clarify my position and experience (for want of being lambasted for providing stat's like Dogleg) - I figured a while ago that I have personally killed over 200 deer, mostly in Australia - but I have hunted and killed them in three countries (including the USA). I started guiding deer hunters in 1997 - so I have seen a good number hit the dirt. I must admit only a relative few (perhaps a dozen) were killed with my 243's before I moved on and it is rare, very rare for a deer hunter to roll-up with a 243 under their arm. I personally didn't loose any deer with my 243's but I certainly know people who have. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Reviewing a lot of the earlier posts.... would I be correct in saying that when you guys in the USA talk of 'deer' - are you only referring to (US) white-tailed deer? That is the impression I get... To someone from outside the USA - 'deer' could mean anything up to an Alaskan bull moose. Might be the reason why some of y'all got sideways with each other? Even whitetail vary hugely in body mass - as we all know. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Generally a correct statement for most in the US. Generally "deer" is whitetail or mule deer or both depending on where you live. Us Yanks usually call out elk and moose separately. | |||
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That's what I figured ... would you take a 243 on a mule deer hunt? I sure as hell wouldn't. They are about the same weight as those wild donkeys Dogleg has been murdering in Australia. 'Deer' cover many different species with a huge range in size. This is not a 'Yank' (no I do not normally use that word) forum and there are contributors in this thread from all around the world. One of the first responses was from a chap in Scotland who identified that a 243 was less than ideal for his red stags. That is why I don't understand why some Internet yokels, hopped-up on Mountain Dew, think it is OK to paste a 'foreigner' for trying to give his well-formed opinions and experience??? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Well, you are wrong.
My wife took this Muley with her .257 Roberts just before Thanksgiving this year, with one shot. Heart/lung shoulder shot, ran about 30 yards plowing dirt with his nose the last 10 yards. 117 grain bullet and if you will look, the .257 is almost identical to the .243 Lots of Americans hunt white tail and mule deer along with elk with the .243 As long as the shooter works within their personal limitations and that of the rifle/cartridge combination they are using,  Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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In the USA.....hunters normally are quite animal specific
As do most animals in the world.....female to male......juvenile to adult
I would not.....as I don't own a 6mm But........ a 100 grain projectile with a .346 bc delivered from the m.v. of nearly 3k put into the lungs of any Mule or Whitetail deer out to 400 yards is very soon to die.
As I know this is not directed toward me but rather towards graybird I thought you might want to know "yokel" is an insult here in the United States of America..... Yokel.... used as an insulting word for a person who lives in a small town or in the country far away from cities and is regarded as stupid ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I can't speak for others but I sometimes forget this is an international site. It is one of the things that keeps me coming back. It's interesting to hear about hunts from around the world. I'm a member of another site that is mostly US and a 3rd that is just Texas hunting. I don't own a .243 but for my first Mule Deer hunt I plan on using 338 Federal. I really like that particular rifle. I'm trying to decide between hunting Mule Deer in West Texas or Nilgai in South Texas in 2016. | |||
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Randall Perfect point you make on the shooter knowing their own and a cartridge's limitations . Great buck please tell your bride congratulations from Tricia and myself and the best this coming new year ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Kudos to your wife!! Well done!! What would that buck weigh on the hoof then? I am thinking that about 200lb right? Maybe bit more? What projectile? No doubt the 243 can be put to good use on larger deer, especially in open country and good shooting - and especially with great modern projectiles. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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I was lucky enough to do some hunting in west Tx this last January - saw some cracking mule deer out there. I havent hunted them myself yet - but I hope to one day!! A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Hypothetical. You have been invited to hunt a trophy mule deer buck in Wyoming with a local friend. Would you take a 243 or 257 Roberts caliber for the hunt? If the answer is yes - would you ask the friend for their advice on that? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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I wouldn't normally post on a tread like this where personal opinion & some experience over shadow life long experience from doing watching others & testing, then degrades to slanging off & name calling ! I have used a 243Win on a fair few animals including Deer from Sika, Fallow to Red Stag, it works most of the time, I even had a 6X45 = 6mm/223, it works to, but now days with the better bullets a fast twist 223 will near do the same, so I sold it to my mate for his 12yr old daughter to use & it has worked for her to . In NZ we have no seasons & we can sell our Deer, shoot deer 24-7, use Dogs both electric & animal, shoot from Helicopters to harvest or destroy them, so I have shot 100's of deer from the ground & air using lots of calibers 100's using a 223 (mostly head shots or I get my Ass kicked). After a lot of dead deer I now use a 30/06 (full discloser last few years 338/06) with heavy bullets & I like lead in them from experience . Now old Dogleg here has a massive amount of over all knowledge on how to kill things & what works best or better than some thing else, killed nearly 90 Equines with me & some Buff to, testing different projectiles & proving some of the opinions I had formed over many years using different projectiles ! We have worked with some very big names in the hunting field, from hunting/writting celebrities to ammunition/projectile manufacturers as these guys could shoot large animals made from meat & bone in field conditions to test products, opinions & what works in real life ! So I would say it could be a good idea to listen to Dogleg Mike's ideas on what works best as he has spent a lot of time & money testing those ideas ! If he shoots a few more Buff he might even close the gap on me, I did work in the Buff shooting meat industry in the old days so not really a fair deal ! | |||
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Direct this question to Snellstrom....... ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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The United States of America is in a daily battle Hunters vs anti hunters Some if not most don't approve of these mass shootings or cullings It is strongly looked down upon here in the USA and other countries to kill for pleasure or sport We all hunt for theses two reasons but not many will actually brag or boast of paying for a trip/vacation for the killing of hundreds of animals to leave for the birds.....let alone post the exploits online The anti hunting communities would pounce on this and use it against every hunter...... You are surely aware of the African Lion mess of this past summer? ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I did just that on the hunt that Lora killed that buck on, and the guy that owns the company that made the hunt available suggested a 7mm/.308/.30-06, but know what? I asked the folks on here and it was pretty unanimous that the .257 was more than adequate. Now, there is the picture and there is the buck an d it was killed with One Shot, so you tell that buck he ain't dead! And just to make things a tad bit clearer I have killed a couple of muleys over the years and seen a few others killed, and it all comes down to the shooters ability to properly place their shots. If I am the one doing the hunting, I ain't asking anyone anything. If after as many years of killing stuff that I have under my belt, I don't know what to use, I need to stop hunting. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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