quote:

I have an idea people who both like and hate the .243 (and .22 CFs) are all "correct". They know where they're hunting so they know why the .243 (or the .22-250.......or the .223.....) will or will not be a good idea.

That is the best description of the situation I have ever seen given on the subject.

I have had my 243 For 43 years. I bought it used from a reputable gun shop although small enough a man and his son ran the place. the man gave me the rifle a Remington 700 BDL and two boxes of shells and said to take it home and shoot it.
After I went back and told him it was sold I bought dies to reload for it. I used his suggest load and a round nose 100gr. bullet.
While the bullet did work on the deer I shot I was less than impressed when shooting whistle pigs across hay fields. got a bunch of different bullets from 80 to 105gr. and did a bunch of testing.
Settled on a Sierra 85gr. HPBT game king bullet. Since then I have shot many a deer with drop right in there tracks results, had one we had to track for a ways and final put down. Some how I had managed to shoot it thru the brisket.
I've shot whistle pigs 300 yards across hay fields and many a crow plus a bunch of deer. My brother has a Winchester Model 70 in 243, My dad used a Ruger 77 tang safety in 243, a cousin had a Stevens in 243 he shot a couple of bears with and his son has a savage. All use my 85gr sierra HPBT game king bullets. Even though I have a 30 30 a 32 Winchester 32 special a couple of 7MM 08's and a 308 in the safe I tend to take the 243 still when I hunt the rifle zone of Michigan.

Al

I've never lost a deer shot with my Rem 700 ADL .243 Win. I have a .270 Win too and have killed more deer with it than the .243 because I always believed "bigger is better". For the average whitetail I hunt on my family's farm in south Mississippi the .243 is more than enough for even the biggest (200 lb.) deer that it would encounter. I still find myself gravitating to it each time I go to the gun cabinet to grab a rifle and walk out my back door in pursuit of a whitetail.

I have never met a red deer I couldn't kill with a .243.
I would expect the same on little whitetails.

Fun to see this thread a year later. Same youngest son still shooting the same .243 this year, but switched to the 85 grain Partition. Fantastic results on 2 deer. Both were pass throughs. Neither deer made it 30 yards and the shots were 150+ and 240+ yards. The rifle is a Weatherby SPM and it shoots most bullets into 3/4MOA, but the 85 partitions are better than 1/2 MOA to 200 yards and easy 2" groups at 300. Amazing to me from a Partition besides. The 85 grain Sierra GK BTHP are the only other bullets that match the Noslers in this gun, and those may get the nod next year.

Well there ya go, about a 50-50 tie, some love it and other don't..I would bet dollars to donuts in time most folks find it a failure sooner or later, that's what I have seen being in the hunting business..

My only gripe with the .243 is blood trails, sometimes you get them and sometimes you don't and that undeniable to those who have used it to any degree...

I have no doubt that if one uses the larger calibers and if he is capable of handling its recoil, his chances of wounding are slight or better..I have no doubt the .308, 7x57 .270 or .30-06 and a few others, are the best of deer rifles to those who can shoot them..They just do a better job..

As much as I like the 250-3000 and 25-35 that I have never lost a deer with, I know the bigger guns mentioned are better performers. They kill better, don't waste any more meat and usually less as a matter of fact, and they always leave a very good blood trail..

A great African cartridge too for smaller PG.

.243 and 100 Partitions.

Well, this year I hunted for a buck , passed 2 does. However the M77 243 performed great again in the hands of a good hunter. Quartering to him right side @ 50yds shoulder shot. DRT with the Hornady 100gr BTSP. Massive trauma in the ribcage, went down in the front with a few rear legs kicks.

quote:

and they always leave a very good blood trail.

This to me is the most telling aspect of the larger calibers over the smaller calibers.

Our goal as a hunter is to insure as quick and humane kill as possible.

The .243 and the various .224's are capable of producing quick/humane kills, I have witnessed many.

But just like with ANY other cartridge, accurate bullet placement is the number One priority

The thing many people overlook/do not understand, is that accurate/precise bullet placement is more critical with the smaller calibers than the larger calibers.

A deer that has been gut shot with a .458 Win. Mag., is different than a deer gut shot with a .223, simply because the larger caliber is going to make a bigger hole going in and coming out.

Odds are the deer shot with the larger caliber will leave enough of a trail to be found.

However, a person using the smaller caliber and placing their shot(s) properly, will not have to worry about a blood trail, because they will kill the animal on the spot with the first shot.

I watched a nanny doe shot pretty well with a 44Mag stagger at least 100yds and expire right in front of me. It took several minutes even though she had 2 big holes in her. So yes Crazyhorse a good shot is necessary and a person should be a good tracker even with larger calibers. It was at least 10 minutes before she kicked for the last time while being shot to pieces.

It is fun to read the many varied opinions about caliber vs. killing efficiency.

I find the .243 perfectly adequate for all deer sized game animals . The same rules apply to it as do any caliber used. Good bullets and shot placement will result in a good performance.

My problem is that I like most all calibers. My current favor is the 6.5 Creedmoor.

Merry Christmas,

Joe

I don't like the .243 on deer. Even though it is quite capable of killing animals so is a 45 caliber round-ball or an arrow and like those you end up following way too many. Since we usually have snow on the ground everyone is automatically an expert tracker so fatally hit deer will be found, but they never seem to move to a spot where recovery is easier. The suspense of waiting to see how it turns out is over-rated. Some perfectly hit deer make it stupidly long distances.


What exactly is the advantage to using the smallest thing the law will allow? I don't get a special season, or an extra tag, or a few points added to a rack. I haven't met the person who could shoot a .243 but somehow couldn't manage a 7/08 or light loaded .270. People who are too broke to afford a separate varmint rifle are too broke to shoot a .243 on varmints. At least I don't know anyone that uses one for the dual deer/varmint role.

A big plus 1 for dogleg, it all makes since..I have used many of the 22s and 6mm to cull with and feed the family and Ive used the 25-35 on elk as a kid and the 250 on cows in the alfalfa to stock the freezer. I have I suppose violated all the med bore criteria and the big bore criteria..

The one thing Im sure of the bigger the caliber the less likely one is to lose an animal if something goes wrong, so care must be taken to avoid such..

Probably the best case I can make against the hi velocity 22s and 6MMs and even the med bore like the 270 is meat destruction..I am sure the 06 with 200 gr. bullets, the 9.3x62, The Whelen, etc, etc, do less meat destruction as a rule, and by a bunch..The game can run until hell freezes over but the blood will lead you to it, and that's what makes me feel better.

In just my own observation, bullet construction is the main factor in both ruined meat and lethality/blood trails. Shot angle is next assuming all wound channels are forward of the diaphragm. back of the diaphragm is never good with any caliber, and a hard, heavy, slower bullet will produce less disruption in the soft tissue with less hydrolic pressure generated. While I like most centerfires for deer and have killed deer with .338Cal down to .223cal. bullets, the .243 and .257s seem to me to be the most efficient - all shots being equal.

Well so far all shot with the 243 have been bang/flops. Seen a bunch of deer shot with 12 guage slugs. They are OK but even at close range the deer can and will run a long way with huge holes in them. And onto other property lines. A 25-35 or a 30-30 would be a huge upgrade here in Ohio. I don't know of any hunter that would set down a bottleneck cartridge gun for a slug gun if it were legal. But many choose to hunt with a muzzle loader over a slug gun. And I seriously doubt many people go out West hunting and bring their slug gun over a rifle, or go to a rifle state and bring a slug gun as primary weapon.....that would raise eyebrows anywhere in a rifle state. I am in agreement with Quintus and others in that a good shot in the vitals with a good bullet that transfers energy in front of the diaphragm kills well. I will continue to hunt with the 30-06 and the 243 as backup rifle. But I would not feel undergunned with a 243 in any way for whitetails, it makes a jellied mess in the ribcage and very little meat damage.

quote:

A deer that has been gut shot with a .458 Win. Mag., is different than a deer gut shot with a .223, simply because the larger caliber is going to make a bigger hole going in and coming out.

I think this thought process will get someone in deep trouble.

So if someone can't shoot a .243 well enough to kill deer they should move up to a magic 7 mag or 300 mag to fix the problem? Or maybe the .458 just to make sure...?

Sorry I don't subscribe to the " Magnum is gonna fix this" thought process.

I've seen lots of deer and antelope killed with .243 and .224 diameter bullets, enough to know that if the shooter does at least an average job the animal goes down. There is not an animal on the planet that will survive and walk away from a double lung shot from an expanding bullet or a shot through the heart.

No matter if you subscribe to the bigger bullet is better theory or not you must select the proper bullet for the game.
Varmint bullets in a .243 or .223 used on deer are an idiots choice, no different than if you used varmint bullets or FMJ's for deer or elk in your magic 7 Mag or 300 Whiz Bang.

In my personal experience I've mostly seen bang flop one shot kills from .224, .243 and .257's.
Your mileage may vary.

To paraphrase JOC a bit, because I can't find the exact quote;

"A larger caliber may be a poor substitute for bullet placement, but it is to some extend a substitute. A more powerful weapon will often save the day when a shot goes somewhat awry "

Another version from reality grounded cattleman who was a long way from an English
professor.

"Its way too late for a good shot, but I'll tell you right now you've got a helluva lot better chance if you blew a hole the size of your head through it".

Or just me
"Once you don't get the shot placement you wanted the only chance you've got left to salvage the situation is a big wound channel. Sometimes its enough"

It might be a poor plan B, but its the only one there is.

Or a frank talking friend of mine, who we will call Rob (cause that's his name);

"Its a two part problem. First you have to kill it, and then you have to find it. You wanna go look for it, or do you just wanna go get it? The chances of just going to get it go way up when you didn't bring half a gun in the first place. How many times do you want to look for the same deer?"

quote:

In my personal experience I've mostly seen bang flop one shot kills from .224, .243 and .257's.
Your mileage may vary.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

this.


There is no substitute for proper bullet selection and lots of trigger time.

Shhhhhh ..... be very quite and don't let these two deer know that a 243 isn't very effective!!!



Or, these two coyotes either!!!!



By the way, none of the four made it out of the field, no tracking required. And, the shame of it all is a tiny little 80 grain TTSX bullet. Shots were from ~100 yards to 337 yards (DRT) on one of the 'yotes.

Wait a minute, did someone insinuate that coyotes are hard to kill?

Looks like a helluva day, Dogleg! Congrats!!!

Well its plain to see from all the different posts that those that have used the .243 extensively have had failures, those that have not still like it, and they just need a few more kills to find out what the others already know, but to each his own and whatever suits you tickles me plum to death.

My first deer was taken with a 30 carbine my Dad borrowed. My second was with a .222. The next year, Dad 'borrowed' a Mod 99 Savage in 243. With that rifle and it's replacement Mod. 600 in 243, I proceeded to take nearly 150 whitetail does in the next 8 years. (early management on a Texas Hill Country ranch).
The only time we ever had 'problems' with the cartridge was due to hunter error, not the cartridge. None of the deer hit were lost. Probably 98% of them were DRT shots at game from 150 yards in.
My Grandson has the Mod. 600 now and took a really nice management 6 point this year at 120 yards. He'll turn 6 in January. The deer field dressed at 140 pounds. Not tiny by Hill Country standards but not the largest of whitetails either.
NO caliber is the 'perfect' caliber for any and all game. The 243 (or 30-06 or 300 Wby Mag) is a very good round provided you use good projectiles and proper shot placement.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
Looks like a helluva day, Dogleg! Congrats!!!

b

Best two days this fall.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well its plain to see from all the different posts that those that have used the .243 extensively have had failures, those that have not still like it, and they just need a few more kills to find out what the others already know, but to each his own and whatever suits you tickles me plum to death.

You're full of yourself, too!

Would it be too outlandish to consider that a 70 pound doe or 100 pound buck in Texas at 100 yards might be a teeny bit different from a 350 pound northern buck at long range? Oh, I know it seems crazy at first, but it's something to think about.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
Would it be too outlandish to consider that a 70 pound doe or 100 pound buck in Texas at 100 yards might be a teeny bit different from a 350 pound northern buck at long range? Oh, I know it seems crazy at first, but it's something to think about.

In all fairness Ive never shot a 70 pounder in Texas, or a 350 pounder up north. Shot lots of stuff in between, and had excellent results, and noticed little if any difference.
Shot a spike elk one day with the .243, and he died so fast I thought I'd electrocuted him! ( he might have made that 350 mark pretty easy...)

We have those big deer and distances in Colorado, too. I would have zero reservations using a 243 with a proper bullet even at longish distances. Matter of fact, the last time I carried a buck tag in my pocket, that same 243 was slung over my shoulder.

Did you get him?

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
Did you get him?

Didn't find one that met the criteria, but saw more than my fare share.

Funny shit I read on these pages

Points to make are.....

Jack O'Connor......never fired a TTSX or GMX.....ever !!!

Doubt ol' beloved JOC ever shot a fast twist .224 or 6mm anything either.....nope

Northern whitetails are far tougher than any deer or elk or anything in Africa (3 trips)
that hoser graybird ever hunted dontchaknow.....ever

The .243 or any of the .308 Win family are perfect cartridges for a lady or child as long as shots are held to close range and the bullet placement is perfect

Men......and I mean real men shoot magnums.......belted of course......they hold up your pants to hide that plumbers ass better than these new fangled magnums

Animals lost are always bullet failures and/or cartridge inadequacy.......damn stunt shooters

Gut shot 180 grains Cor-Loc .300 WM at 50 yards trumps a double lung at 250 with a 6mm anything!!!!!

I'll see what else shit gets slung around here I missed

Wait Wait Wait........never ever!!!!!! travel out of state or spend money on a non-resident license without shooting the biggest rifle cartridge you accurately own and lob heavy for caliber bullets to make bad shots (less bad)

This goes double for African PG and Elk......never use inadequate cartridges on these animals as they refuse to die from puzzy guns

If you could turn Bullshit into electricity Jack O'Conner would have been a walking Dynamo! Elmer Keith not far behind, but I read them religiously!

quote:

Originally posted by cooksey:
If you could turn Bullshit into electricity Jack O'Conner would have been a walking Dynamo! Elmer Keith not far behind, but I read them religiously!

I worship no.....repeat.....no gun writer

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Funny shit I read on these pages

Points to make are.....

Jack O'Connor......never fired a TTSX or GMX.....ever !!!

Doubt ol' beloved JOC ever shot a fast twist .224 or 6mm anything either.....nope

Northern whitetails are far tougher than any deer or elk or anything in Africa (3 trips)
that hoser graybird ever hunted dontchaknow.....ever

The .243 or any of the .308 Win family are perfect cartridges for a lady or child as long as shots are held to close range and the bullet placement is perfect

Men......and I mean real men shoot magnums.......belted of course......they hold up your pants to hide that plumbers ass better than these new fangled magnums

Animals lost are always bullet failures and/or cartridge inadequacy.......damn stunt shooters

Gut shot 180 grains Cor-Loc .300 WM at 50 yards trumps a double lung at 250 with a 6mm anything!!!!!

I'll see what else shit gets slung around here I missed

Wait Wait Wait........never ever!!!!!! travel out of state or spend money on a non-resident license without shooting the biggest rifle cartridge you accurately own and lob heavy for caliber bullets to make bad shots (less bad)

This goes double for African PG and Elk......never use inadequate cartridges on these animals as they refuse to die from puzzy guns

quote:

Or just me "Once you don't get the shot placement you wanted the only chance you've got left to salvage the situation is a big wound channel. Sometimes its enough" It might be a poor plan B, but its the only one there is.

This sounds like someone who tries to turn every deer sighting into a shot opportunity and the reality is for an ethical hunter they are not the same thing.
I don't care what rifle I have in my hands I wait for a decent shot and sometimes it doesn't materialize. That's the name of the game.
If an animal is already hit all bets are off keep shooting to put him down. First shot should be your best attempt at a killing shot.
Just me but maybe I hold myself to a higher standard or have more respect for the quarry than others...

quote:

Originally posted by Greg K:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Funny shit I read on these pages

Points to make are.....

Jack O'Connor......never fired a TTSX or GMX.....ever !!!

Doubt ol' beloved JOC ever shot a fast twist .224 or 6mm anything either.....nope

Northern whitetails are far tougher than any deer or elk or anything in Africa (3 trips)
that hoser graybird ever hunted dontchaknow.....ever

The .243 or any of the .308 Win family are perfect cartridges for a lady or child as long as shots are held to close range and the bullet placement is perfect

Men......and I mean real men shoot magnums.......belted of course......they hold up your pants to hide that plumbers ass better than these new fangled magnums

Animals lost are always bullet failures and/or cartridge inadequacy.......damn stunt shooters

Gut shot 180 grains Cor-Loc .300 WM at 50 yards trumps a double lung at 250 with a 6mm anything!!!!!

I'll see what else shit gets slung around here I missed

Wait Wait Wait........never ever!!!!!! travel out of state or spend money on a non-resident license without shooting the biggest rifle cartridge you accurately own and lob heavy for caliber bullets to make bad shots (less bad)

This goes double for African PG and Elk......never use inadequate cartridges on these animals as they refuse to die from puzzy guns

Counter-point.

I have observed that copper bullets kill lightly and normally constructed animals slower than more conventional bullets with adequate penetration and larger wound channels. Proved that over and over on cull hunts numbering into hundreds of animals per week.

A question.

Three trips to Africa, is that a lot?

And another question.

Without using recoil in the sentence what can a good small gun do that a good bigger (or faster) gun can't do better?

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

Counter-point.

I have observed that copper bullets kill lightly and normally constructed animals slower than more conventional bullets with adequate penetration and larger wound channels. Proved that over and over on cull hunts numbering into hundreds of animals per week.

A question.

Three trips to Africa, is that a lot?

And another question.

Without using recoil in the sentence what can a good small gun do that a good bigger (or faster) gun can't do better?

When will you bigger gun guys finally pull up your pants

Testosterone or dick measuring/chest pounding......heck if I know

Copper bullets kill slower/not as good.....seen this hundreds of times?

Bull shit!!! and I just flat out don't believe you there

Dead is dead and there is no (dead-er)

3 trips to Africa a lot?

Not in the eyes of a PH like "Aaron Neilson" who has been nearly 40 times

But in the eyes of most working class, knuckle dragging, blunt skulls like myself......3 trips to Africa is 300% more than they will likely make

NOTE NOTE NOTE

Never shoot an Elk with a 150 grain Accubond from a 30-06 at 3k fps

But!!!!! Damit man by all means.....if you have a .270 Winchester a 150 is perfect

Let's not even mention the magic.....yes the MAGIC 7 RM

With that jewel of a rifle in hand a 150 killed em.......DEAD-ER

Those bigguns kill shit just by whispering of the legend behind their legacy

Rubish

Just some observations from 45 years of hunting deer and larger critters.

1. A properly placed bullet, regardless of diameter = a dead animal.

2. A poorly placed bullet, regardless of diameter = a wounded/possibly or probably an animal that will not/may not be found.

Accurate bullet placement is the key element in all situations.

Knowing when to take a shot or when to pass on a shot is an important addition to any hunters list of skills.

All animals do not react exactly the same when hit by a bullet.

When I first became acquainted with folks using the .243, many of them were using varmint bullets, 75-85 grains, pushing them as fast as possible and with head/upper neck shots the results were spectacular.

Shoulder shots were not so great, 1 or 2 inches penetration and the bullet went to pieces. Sometimes the deer was recovered, many times it wasn't.

Move forward a few years with better bullets and heavier bullets, 100 grains or a little heavier, and a little maturity on the part of the hunters, and the .243 works just fine on deer.

When I bought Lora her rifle my choices were the .243 and the .257 Robert's. I went with the Robert's basically out of nostalgia, but ballistically it is not all that different than the .243.

Mind you, this is coming from someone that has shot white tails with a .458 Win. Mag.

A .243 in the hands of a hunter that knows his/her own personal limitations and works within those limitations is plenty of gun.

So we're down to name calling? It's not have anything else to add.

I wouldn't call myself a big gun guy, since I have rifles spanning from .204 to 458. Most of what I use would be classed as light rifles on an international scale.

Much of what I've done hunting has been reported on this and other forums.the outfitters that feature most prominatly in the biggest bags are well known here. Last year was particularly busy with 399 large animals taken by me. After that I barely count my own African hunts as much more than a rounding error.

In that number there was the tag end of a couple bullet tests. One of those tests was shooting the darling of the copper bullet crowd head to head against one of the most ordinary cup and cores. Used 3 different 30-06s, with 168 TSXs, 165 Interlocks and after the first year quite few 180 grain woodleighs. After a rounded down 450 animals I did what I did, saw what I saw and know what I know.

Did another one on 112 water buffalo in a week, with different bullets too. Feel free to call bullshit on that too.

quote:

Originally posted by LesBrooks:
My first Mod. 70 Fwt 243 win. started using in 1957 with the Hornady 100 gr. ROUNDNOSE SHAPE bullets. An old reloader told me to try that bullet on deer and it worked great. I still have some of these bullets as they are no longer available. It is still my choise for deer.

Read Les Bowman's report on elk guided hunts. He talks about people could have a better kill using a 243 Win. than their larger caliber mags.

IMO is still the best bullet kills better then all others