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| One of Us |
I'll probably go out Tuesday or Wednesday or both and it will be spike or doe only season. This would be whitetail deer that GENERALLY run small--100 pounds or so. If I get one, I'll be using either a .223 or .243. Which one would you guys prefer for the next pissing match? | |||
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.22 Hornet. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I got to shoot some of those 100 pound deer in eastern VA and NC back in my younger days. I found that anything over 25 cal. could make a deer look like a prairie dog if any of the more solid bones were hit. My buddy hit one quartering to on the point of the shoulder with a 30-06. I believe it was a 165gr power point maybe? The exit was almost all the off side ribs and the off shoulder (not hit) had rolled over and was just barely hanging on. That deer did not take a step, but there was that good blood trail half way to Myrtle Beach. The .223 or .243 should serve you well either one Carpetman. | |||
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I guess now technicalities are coming is since coming to rescue your buddy, huh, Matt? You know dang good and well this discussion was centered around North American hunting, and our North American deer species. Nothing was even said of Australia until the great white hunter started boasting about the vast killing fields of Australia. Yokel ... You're funny using sly words. To answer your question, yes, I have been on a paying hunt and taken a 243. Believe it, or not, took it all the way to Africa, too. Oh my! Guess what? I've taken it on a mule deer hunt here in Colorado, too! I've even taken it to hunt in Texas, Oklahoma, Mississippi, Georgia and Florida. I'd say I'm pretty confident in it's capabilities and mine. And, It isn't like I don't have other larger options either. Even smaller options, too, as I've killed a few deer and antelope using a 22-250. Man, I guess I'm just a mess because I don't use my magnum calibers for critters that don't require magnums. One of these days, maybe all my internet friends will show me the way and I'll be a magnum junky right along with them. Anything else you've forgotten for this jacked up yokel? I don't know, maybe I've been really lucky killing deer in years past. Good thing they didn't read AR, or they wouldn't have died so easily.  Happy New Year! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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You asked AR members for advice but then go on to say you 'aint asking anyone anything'? Anyhow - I sense a real nastiness going on in this thread - I dont need that. Personally I dont have any issue with shooting a tiny 100lb deer with a good 243 - I mean, who would? A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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I probably should stay out of this one, but like the rest of you, I can't help myself.  I no longer hunt anything bigger than deer ( whitetail, mule Deer and Axis) and the .243 is my 'big' gun. I really prefer the centerfire .22s As for the .204 Ruger, I have seen a couple guys use it, and I love the cartridge, but until and unless somebody makes a proper bullet for it for deer, I shall abstain. If Barnes made a .20 cal. TSX I'd be all over it.... | |||
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No nastiness from me. My point is I asked the members of AR their opinion on my Wife using her .257 Robert's on a Mule Deer. I already had an opinion, but just wanted to see what other folks thought. That is what this place is for, to get others opinions/observations/personal experiences on such issues.
Perhaps you did not take time to read this part:
In this case it was my wife, and I was simply wanting to get some across the board opinions from folks with possibly/probably more experience shooting muleys than I have. I took three rifles on the hunt to choose from for my use, my .300 Weatherby, .35 Whelen and .375 H&H. When the hunt started I decided on the .375 because I had killed muley's with the Whelen and Weatherby. I am not meaning to come across with any nastiness, just listing my experiences with animals I have shot and animals I have been involved in the shooting of. I knew a guy, he has passed on, but he killed a bull elk in Colorado a few years back at over 300 yards with three shots from a .243. After it was over and the bull was down, he told the guide he would never try that again and as far as I know he didn't. But I would be willing to bet that there have been plenty of elk/caribou and even a good many moose that have been killed with a .243, just like there have been probably as many or more white tails and mule deer both killed with a .22LR over the years than with center fire rifles. I am not a fan of the .243, but I am also not a fan of the .270/.308 or .30-06. However I have been around and in the field long enough to know that if the person doing the shooting does their part, all four of those calibers work damn good. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Since this seems like a might be a legitimate question, day rates are very close to what you would expect to pay for DG in Africa. That's not being vague there's some variation at both locales. Ssme ball park. Water buffalo trophy fees vary from a fairly consistent 2500-3000 on the high end through to in some special cases zero at the other end. Zero doesn't happen very often. | |||
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"243 Winchester results on deer" This was the Original Topic, seems as if chest thumping and bullshitting have overtaken the topic. How we got on culling and daily rates for Buffalo is beyond me. .243 is more than adequate for any deer on the planet and if you can't kill it with a .243 magnums aren't going to fix your problem. I view culling as a completely different job. It's not about one clean shot taking care not to waste meat or being humane about anything it's about anchoring animals so they don't get away to live any longer, hip and ass shots are completely acceptable, granted the animal suffers but it remains there while you "anchor" as many animals as possible then when all possible animals are on the ground you can wade through them to finish them off at your leisure. This is completely different than the sport 99% of us pursue so why it's being discussed in a "243 Winchester results on deer" thread is boggling except that we were led here by someone spouting bullshit bragging numbers. | |||
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You don't really need to read it, and there is an ignore feature that will help you with that. Besides, Missouri wanted to be shown. Insisted on it. Why would you want to deprive him of that? | |||
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  I think some of us are trying to find the correlation between shooting deer in North America and culling water buffalo and donkeys in Australia! What the Hell does one have to do with the other? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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It started over copper bullets, and sort of spiralled from there. Accusations of bullshit are being addressed, but shortly after that I'm sure it will go back to whether a .243 is good enough, barely adequate or best for 100 pound deer. I've given up on anyone coming up with a single thing a .243 can do better, but you never know. You just have to be patient. | |||
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Hey, I agree about whether the .243 is better than say a .25-06 or pick a caliber. I personally like the bigger calibers myself, but I can't honestly state that my .375 H&H killed the deer I shot on the trip that picture is from, any faster or deader than the buck Lora shot with her .257 Robert's. I have hunted with friends and seen them kill deer and hogs just as dead and just as quick with a .222 or .223 as I did with a .300 Weatherby. Take in mind we were shooting at similar distances, and I am pretty sure past 150 yards or so, the Weatherby and 165 grain Barnes TSX bullets are going to show a lot better results than probably any bullet from the .222/.243. But here in the states it is hard to ignore the fact that annually a lot of deer, white tail and mule deer, feral hogs, black bear, pronghorns, caribou and elk along with various exotics are killed with .243's. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The mantra needs to changed from "Use enough gun" to "Use enough shot placement". Or better yet "Use some common sense" Of course the 243 will kill deer adequately. Not really a question. So will a .22LR. That has been proven beyond doubt as well. The only thing lacking is sense enough to know the limitations of the tool which you are using. I can't believe that grown men can get so pissey with each other over nothing. This thread is ridiculous. All We Know Is All We Are | |||
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I can't believe you let that chicken put the run on you. You could have taken it. | |||
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You "showed" me how you achieved your numbers.....bravo ......and you also alerted anyone who reads this thread of these activities in Australia that frankly most here didn't know went on And your "phone a friends" backed you up....amazing Finding out your numbers were from a vacation trip to Australia for the sole purpose to slaughter hundreds of "cull" animals doesn't impress me but rather saddened me. You laid out a lot of money to travel halfway around the world to shoot as many animals as you possibly could then left them lay to rot or feed birds.......tons and tons of waste........and someone kept score for you.......bless their hearts Congratulations....in participating in literally shooting hundreds of "fish" in a barrel.....then bragging about your accomplishment I am not impressed but rather saddened that you consider that a topic to talk or brag about...... Wanton waste..... Culling for population control is understandable. Offering individuals the opportunity to partake in this culling for a fee is a solid business idea. Keeping a count to give the landowner some information on a heard reduction number is also a great idea. But now we find out there is a day rate and trophy fees......odd to have trophy fees if it is a culling but whatever floats your wallet....spend your money as you wish Bragging about your slaughter numbers in this cull is equal to a slaughter house employee bragging on daily kill numbers at the processing plant. Wow......just wow ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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What will a .243 do better? Not much......it has it's limitations as do all cartridges My original post was to point out how so many are so good at telling others what they should be doing and reminding everyone who quotes JOC or EK that bullets have evolved and so have barrel trist.......I pointed out some classic answers from old AR threads gone by.......but even if they don't need the "help" it will come along here......so listen and learn from proven killers I have my yellow note pad ready from now on...... ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I think Missouri doesn't really like being shown. You ask for it, but don't mean it. The numbers were in support of my views on copper bullets and small animals. The references were because you asked for them while screaming bullshit. OK Missouri, you got shown. Don't like it, don't ask for it. Now get back to your name calling. Talk about my dick some more, that never gets old.  | |||
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I enjoyed being "Shown" your numbers of slaughtered water buffalo.......and was hoping to be impressed.......nope Didn't see any statistics on your bullet test though.........hmmmm The Buffalo slaughter........nice trip amigo Your a legend ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Bullet tests/observations have already been posted elsewhere. Light stuff in Australia forum; .458 stuff in Big Bore "Terminal bullet performance" thread. You don't seem very happy for someone who got everything they asked for. | |||
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Dogleg, I looked for the results of copper 243/6mm bullets in the Australia forum. For the life of me, I couldn't find it. Found some stuff on 30-06 and another 300 along with some bigger stuff 375 and above. Seems like you had conflicting results from one year to another on the TSX and Hornady offerings versus the Woodleigh bullets the next go around with donkeys and such. Would you mind posting those 243/6mm results here, or at least offer a link to those data? I'd like to take a look at it if you don't mind. Also, seems as though you preferred the TSX in the larger bores. Many thanks! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Actually I'm quite enjoying this You may very well be a bigger blowhard than ISS and he is a joy to gather hunting and killing knowledge from Your a gas that's for sure ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Like stated by graybird Your statistical foray into the Australian bush to shoot buffalo did not mention any 6mm bullet testing.......if you forget.....that is what this topic is about........243 Winchester results on deer I have owned one and used it extensively until I was in my early twenties....I no longer have it but do regret selling it I found it to be a pleasure to shoot and it killed everything I shot with it. This covered everything I shot with a CF rifle because I didn't own a different rifle until I was 23 or 24 The .243 still retains 1k ft lbs at nearly 400 yards with 100 grain bullets. This kills most all thin skinned game with a bullet placed inside the vitals ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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It's a Missouri thing...I've been trying to assimilate the culture. No luck yet. Been here 10 years now which is about 9 years too long. I've learned the "Show Me" thing is an oxymoron. Anyone want to buy a business, farm and home so I can get the fuck out of here. I'm so desperate to leave that I'll even throw in a 243 with ammo and a used wife in to the deal. Oops, my NY is showing. All We Know Is All We Are | |||
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You are a New Yorker? Bless your heart and the best of luck to your sale of said properties and departure from the state that prevents your happiness. I can fully understand why living near St Louis would make most unhappy ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Not conflicting. Inconclusive at first. Although 100 more or less is enough for an impression and observations of differences, "better" still has some room for interpretation based on what is deemed to be most important. Doubling the take the second year (tripling the total) made the results quite clear and doubling that yet again reinforced what had become obvious. You'll have to forgive the rounded numbers. Since they were within a plainsgame hunt plus or minus to even hundreds they were rounded accordingly. I don't believe you are interested in the results. | |||
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The nastiness comment wasnt directed at you. My question was: would you choose to take a 243 on a northern trophy mule deer hunt? Regardless what your good wife used for her hunt - I guess your answer should have been no - if you have already chosen to take 300wby, 35Wh and 375 to choose from!! I am trying to make a point here that if US hunters think of generic 'deer' as being whitetailed deer and mulies - take that to the extreme and go after the biggest bodied mulie bucks - 243 may not be such a good choice on an expensive interstate or international hunt (if in Canada). I mean how heavy are the biggest mulie bucks??? You may not to to advice on caliber selection - but lots of hunters do - I am not to proud to ask for sage advice. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Matt Have you forgotten Yokel is an insult? ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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| one of us |
Inconclusive on your '06 results isn't what I recall reading. Your posts in 2013 clearly stated the Hornday 165 Interlock was better, then in 2014 your results became muddy between those two offerings when the Woodleigh was added to the mix with the Woodleigh being superior. But, we digress from the topic of this thread. I actually am interested in your 243/6mm results using all copper bullets. In the last few years, I switched from the 95 gr Partition to the 80 gr TTSX simply for accuracy reasons. (I've yet to find one of my rifles that can consistently keep Partitions to the accuracy I'd like to see, and oh how I'd love to use them.). Along with better accuracy, I've also gained extremely efficient killing capability. I've yet to find a critter that can survive its utility. Matter of fact, I have recently received a few of the 85 gr ACP bullets to test on deer sized game. Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to put a load together for this fall's hunting season. Astonishingly, they were developed in Australia. Pass along those 243/6mm data when you get the chance. Thanks! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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A short summary of my deer hunting is 190 total more or less. Shot enough with a .243 to know that it can't compare with a .257, simply because with small bullets of similar or same weight you can't beat velocity. Further, in an effort to increase the killing power and visual indicators of hits Ive taken 80 grain TTSXs up to 3950 fps in a .257 westherby and still can't equal lead core bullets in wound channel or paralyzing effect. All kinds of penetration. Further to that, at more normal speeds of 3400-3600 fps cant beat larger calibers at the same velocities. Sometimes it didn't make any difference, because it's hard to top instant, but smaller isn't better. Velocity and therefore range is definitely in lock step with bullet construction, but a 243 doesn't match a 270, and a .257 Weatherby doesn't match a 7mm STW with the same bullets. Hangs that around with a ballistic tip in the same .257 and TSXs in the STW and the little gun kills better. It would be easy to set up a situation where a high speed .243 with frangible bullets will kill little things like a whitetail faster than an overly hard bullet in a .375 H&H. That's not making the former better, it's just an exams of not optimizing the latter tithe application. One place where copper bullets shine in small calibers is when you are pushing them out of their weight class. If you simply have to shoot a elk with a 243 then copper is one of your better moves. Another is when you want something to die somewhere else. Less meat damage can be an advantage, but is proof of less tissue damage. Less damage doesn't kill faster, that should be evident. | |||
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Deal is, I don't use a .243. I rarely use Lora's .257 Robert's, but when I have used it I have found no fault with it. I don't like or own a .270/.308 or .30-06, does that mean because I would not choose one of those to go on such a hunt with? NO! If I used or owned a .243 and after seeing the results over the years that others have had using the caliber, I would have no qualms at all using it on a trophy Mule Deer hunt, ANYWHERE in North America. Within the working limits of my abilities and the cartridges limitations, I would not hesitate using it on a Trophy Mule Deer hunt. Regardless of how big a mule deer is, they are flesh and blood and a properly placed bullet from a .243 will kill one just as dead as my Whelen or .375. I chose the rifles that I like and use, none of them will kill anything, including Mule Deer any deader than anything else. I didn't choose a lot of calibers, are you trying to say that a .270 will not kill a Mule Deer? I am not, but I did not choose it! Why would I choose a caliber that I do not own? Your argument has became so convoluted that you are grabbing at any straw you can to prove a point that you can not prove. I chose the .257 Robert's for Lora, because that is what she is used to using. If she had been used to using a .243 that is what she would have used. I chose from among the rifles I own and like to use. All of us get your point, you do not think the .243 is powerful enough to kill a "Trophy Canadian Mule Deer", and you can not understand why folks are not agreeing with you. That is YOUR problem. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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My experience with them must be very different than yours expecially with the "die somewhere else". I continually get DRT, or move 20-50 yards and die, especially with heart/lung shots on deer-sized game. If a guy can't track a deer, 40-50 yards, then he needs to increase his skill set. I've experienced more movement from deer when hit with lead projectiles including the good ole Cor-Lokts and partitions along with the standard Federal blue box offerings out of the 243. Case in point as only one example is this antelope doe, couldn't let her move across the fence as it was the neighbors property as she was ducking her head to go under the fence. Shot was 223 yards, IIRC. DRT!  Still waiting on that 243 data. I'm surprised you would actually have any for the simple facts you stated and questions posed earlier about long distances and big old deer up in your neck of the woods. Of those 190 deer and since you keep records and numbers, I'm curious to how many deer you've killed with said 243 and copper bullets. Check your records and get back to me. Thanks! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Missed this one. Larger bores and the larger animals that properly go with them are a good match for TSXs. Thick skin definitely doesn't hurt either. I believe my summary was that in a typical, close range hunt for a buffalo or three the choice of any of the three main bullets probably wouldn't change the success or failure of your hunt. That doesn't mean they are exactly the same, and also shows where larger numbers expose patterns. My favorite still remains the A-Frame, and it proved to work better at Lott speed than Win mag speed. The CEB has a couple of major flaws, the worst of which is that it blows up on contact with any brush. Oh sure, all beats are off of any bullet hitting any brush, but you stand a better chance if your bullet is in one piece rather than 7. Also, the dismal BC slows them down way too fast. At short typical range that doesn't matter much, but by 200 it is quite evident. Since it doesn't bring anything extra to the party to make up for it, on balance its not worth the built in handicap. I was sort of cheering for it to be honest. The lighter than normal TSX was sort of a surprise. It worked well enough, and within the narrow confines of shooting a .458 all day everyday its considerably lighter recoil was welcomed. For more normal hunting it wouldn't make much difference, except as contrasted to a .375. There, it makes a better .375 than the .375 does. | |||
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And, I'll digress again for a moment. That ostrich in my avatar was shot with a 375 H&H using 300 grain Barnes bullets. At the shot, the bird ran about 100 yards obviously hit and holding the wing down. Second shot put him down for good. I back tracked a few yards from where he rested and found a few small droplets of blood. Based upon your methodology of "die somewhere else" and a sample size of one coupled with your killing of cull buffalo which you loved the TSX, a 375 and Barnes bullets is a bad idea for use on ostrich. I can't imagine someone with your extensive knowledge of killing big ole Canadian bucks would keep going back to something that obviously doesn't work ... The 243; therefore, how is your sampling size large enough to be conclusive? Heck, you changed your thoughts on the '06 and the 168 TSX on your latest trip Down Under with more knowledge, of course, based upon your own writings, which I read this afternoon. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Do you think that running 50 yards is good? Sure its better than 500 but deer are relatively easy to flatten. | |||
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Your ostrich did die somewhere else. Its a good example of an overly hard bullet on a soft target. Not overly hard from the aspect of blowing it up too bad perhaps, but it could have been killed quicker. I've long ago moved from the TSX in the .375 to the A-Frame. Better blend of characteristics on balance. | |||
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Actually, I don't see it being a problem at all when a critter makes that mad dash death run. One shot = one kill, which is about all I could ask for. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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