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Mick You've been pretty reasonable in this discussion. Not that I think you need my approval in any way. You seem pretty comfortable in your own skin. I know you don't feel that the 223, etc isn't cut out for the on the hoof critters, but you don't seem to force your opinion on others as some have done here. I spent 3 years in CO while in gunsmithing school and common knowledge was that you couldn't kill big game with a 223, ect. Now I understand that common knowledge was based on strong opinions formed by those who probably never tried it. Ackley did extensive testing with sub calibers and his vol 1&2 handbook is great reading for those willing to absorb some facts into their strong opinions. My wife works at the local meat locker and their experience with gunshot wounds would possibly best hotcore's. Being hunters as well, they have no problems with big game hunters using the 223, based on their real world experience with the results. Looking in Ackley's book, it seems like I could legally shoot a deer here with a 14-221 Walker in a pistol. Not sure if I could push a 12 caliber fast enough to meet the requirements. I hope SD never changes the big game caliber restriction laws here based on the fact that there isn't a problem as it is written. | |||
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There you go again, making it personal. Law injects ethics in the lives of others, and all of us, thankfully, to avoid subjectivity about it, or applying different standards depending on whine factor or anger or the sqeeky wheel syndrome. Fish and game laws are no different than other laws. Given the level on unreasonable emotion and opinion demonstrated in this thread, I applaud the politicians and legislators on something like this to have the balls to go forth with a law setting minimums. Simply said, we have lots of laws, because many/some people just can't abide by an acceptable social standard of behavior, so democratically they have to be told by others what standard they must abide by, or suffer consequenses. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I follow the laws as they are written. No reason not to. | |||
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Is that another way of saying that you follow the letter of the law, but draw a line between that and the spirit and intent of the law? Is sneeking by on a technicality OK to you? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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KB Do you drive the speed limit? Or do you drive 10 under to make sure you're not sneaking by on a technicality? | |||
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Mick You had a great post that disappeared after I replied to KB. | |||
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I've not given it much thought until you mentioned it. I suppose it varies, and sometimes I may drive over the speed limit. Driving over the speed limit occasionally is in my case not intentional and has no relationship for respect for the law. Intentionally dreaming up some ballistic abberition to sneek by a law on a technicality is IMO all about attitude. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Gunmaker, Sorry about that, the post didn’t reflect what I was trying to say. I have no argument with you. | |||
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As someone else said before in this thread, go tell the guys that use sharp sticks to kill big game they are doing it all wrong. | |||
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I have a lot of respect for the guys with sharp sticks, who for the most part are real hunters, IMO. I also have a lot of respect for you, believe it or not. To me this isn't an argument with you personally. It's just that bantering back an forth has opened an opportunity for me to make a small point, and I emphasize a small point. Ethics are very subjective, and I am trying to be careful to not seriously question your ethics. My point is to show that IMO ethics are part of the conversation of using the 223 on deer, sometimes expressed in the form of a laws, sometimes in terms of more subjective restraint. Ethics are an integral part of practically all aspects of hunting today, and IMO is highlighted with the choice of using a 223 for deer. I'm not willing to say that I think the use of the 223 on deer is unethical, but IMO from reading what some say in defense of their choice, that ethics doesn't play a big role in their choices, on a broader scale, like mentoring kids, and passing up shots such as running at 175 yds. with the equivilent of a 22 hornet. There I've gone an given you another opportunity to use something I said to make it personal. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Since when? Just today? Indecision is the key to flexibility. | |||
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GM, he's just too stupid to get it. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Everyday, sometimes successful, sometimes maybe less than successful. That's the nature of debating a hot topic. That's the problem with engaging is such a discussion. It's so easy to cross over into making it personal, and it's difficult to avoid it, but worth the try. Some get very defensive, and use making it personal as a ploy to divert the issues into meaninglessness. Others I'm not sure what their motive is or where they are coming from - ego probably, or justification I suppose for doing whatever they want without question. Where is the line is often the question. In states that have the minimum deer cartridge defined by law, the minimum is not a matter of choice, it's a matter of abiding the law. In other states, the minimum is a matter of ethical choice. I'm making a distinction of "seriously" questioning your ethics, as compared to bantering to make a point. Also, note that I'm not claiming high ground, or that I'm above unethical behavior. I think we all deal with our own ethical demons in one way or another. It's just that some don't seem to value it at all or very little in the choices they make. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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See what I mean. When backed in a corner where he'll need to use reason he changes the subject and wants to talk about the "nature" of the discussion. He's just too stupid to realize he lost this argument long ago. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I seem to sence a yapping sound in the background, like a barking Chihuahua. Humm, maybe that ignore selection needs tuning a little.  Do you hear it too? Yap, Yap, Yap. Since I haven't used the ignore option before, I find that it's important to log on first thing on this forum, otherwise the ignore doesn't work, and you can read all the posts. So it's a small price to pay - logging on every time - to shut off that yapping sound. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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So is lack of committment. As well as fence straddeling, and ambiguity. You know what I mean, politicians are very good at it. Try this: It's difficult to change direction when you are not in motion. Or, standing still gives but one option for change - move, then other options emerge. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Yes, everybody see's it including you genius  . Putting me on ignore only works if you don't read the posts dumb ass. I like to call it the Ostrage defense  Bury your head in the sand and proclaim "I no longer read his posts" but we all know you still do . Why? Because.....even now you can't control yourself. Stupidity on parade -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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.. . \.   Couldn,t have said it better myself .. And I actually know and like KB , I consider him a friend .And a good hunting and fishing companion ,.... But I had to put him on ignore ............ . Used to be , if someone was like that a small bout of fistacuffs would solve the problem , and you could say , Now quit doing that and lets be friends ,,, Now of course . that would involve a flock of law enforcement officials , lawyers , at least one judge , and a criminal record , so the ignore button comes in handy ..... It,s sad , my how mankind has progressed .... But at least I can hunt caribou with my 223 ....53 gr TSX  .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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So how far back do I have to go to get any fun or useful info .... Sorting thru 10 pages of people being mad @ kabluey is a waste of time ! .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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The whole thread was a waste of time before page one ended. But what the hey, it beats fighting with the wife. In fact, useless irrational bickering on AR may be saving far more marriages from undo stress than we'll ever know  "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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 That's a big 10-4 !  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Hey Gumboot - welcome back. As I said, about the first five pages is enough to see both the different sides and opinions, and also see the deterioration, which really started down when TC1 stuck his nose in it, predictably. Mostly the rest has been fun and games. I don't know how many are actually un-manly enough to let this chit make them angry at anyone for more than a moment, except one obvious guy, expressing girly behavior. Yap, yap, waaah, waaah. Heck, since I don't have a wife to argue with anymore, as tiggertate says, arguing with a pussy over the internet is the next best thing. It's more fun than arguing with attorneys for sure. Speaking of a waste of time - if those willing to argue had or would just say something like, sure ethics is relevant, as it is in all other aspects of dealing with others, choices and responsibility, living and getting on in life. Or something like - Sure you have an opinion, and thank you for your input and expressing it - like gentlemen, then there would be something to discuss. But instead some have made personal insults a mainstay, as though that's the only way they can express themselves in an argument. It's gotta be personal for them, before they are satisfied. TC1 in particular is so wrapped up in it that I think it is impossible for him to write anything that doesn't include personal insults toward others, or any conversation that includes him soon takes a downturn into emotion and insult. The main thing that some apparantly don't get is that disagreement ain't necessarily disrespect. It can be two different things that are easily seperated if one has the mindset to do it. TC1 pretends that he lost respect when I called him a liar. I think that's far from the truth and he had no respect in the first place to loose, or he wouldn't have resorted to lying and insults. Calling his hand on it wasn't the turning point. That occurred earlier if any respect existed at all in the first place, which is questionable. If you read many of my posts, you can see that I can write without insults, and try to appease the opposition by recognising their points. I did it with TC1 several times but he is inconsolable, and incorrigible. I can also insult with the best, but I know the difference, and when I insult, I'm doing it on purpose, not that I have to do that to win, and not that I even want to win, but to give them a dose of their own stuff. I'm doing it because I can, and want to in that situation, and sometimes the attitude of - "so you want to play that game?" gets me going, but it's not my default mode. I'm still here because I can't stand to let them run me off with insults, which is what a few would like to see. As for the rest of you, throw your two-cents in anytime. Although a little warm, the water's fine, jump right in there.  I would suggest though that putting TC1 on the ignore list really helps a lot. KB  ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Yea Tiggergate, I wish I had discovered the therapeutic qualities of arguing on this forum long ago. I doubt it would have saved my marriage, but maybe its arguments and demise wouldn't have evolved into an appeal before the Alaska Supreme Court, all done without the help of an attorney. That's a long term argument that I never want to do again, but maybe satisfying to have done it once, especially if I prevail, which of course I believe that I will. The funny aspect, or perhaps not-so-funny, is that if I win the appeal, it will be the first argument with my wife that I ever won. Although I encountered sociopaths before, until I married one I had no real idea what that was about. The level of manipulation, head games, lying, scheming, pretending, acting, focus on winning regardless of the cost to others, looking good, lack of conscience or ethics are all skills and driving force for some that is absolutely stunning as it emerges. It is impossible to actually know who such a person is really, because they make sure that remains hidden. They are great pretenders, and hone their skills throughout a lifetime. That marriage and learing experience, mixed with having grown up in a Christian fundamentalist family, where belief was everything, and becoming intentionally more scientific as an adult, may either unhinge or ground a guy. It certainly causes one to look for foundation in himself, such as belief in God, truth and ethics. Having such a keen distinction, has two curses, conscience becoming hyper trying to be truthful and ethical, and recognition of the lack of truth and ethics in others. Thus the burden - fix only that which you can fix - one's self primarily. One certainly wants to restrain himself from turning democrat or liberal, but a guy has to have some fun, so is phucking with the Adam Henrys who lie, and lack ethics OK, or am I going to hell for it? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I was trying to help the guy out. He has lost all ability to reason through a problem and just thought a little push in the right direction might help. Like a sociopath he just can't fathom that any of this might be his fault. He completely discounts the fact that he has zero experience with the subject and thinks his opinions carry weight. It was an attempt to help this poor soul out that he might look in the mirror and say to himself, "Hey, maybe I could be wrong about this." But as you can see from the last few posts he thinks he's a victim now, dragged into this without any control over the situation. We made him write stupid shit for 17 pages now Of coarse we all know better. His rude and obnoxious behavior caused all of it and he has no ability to see it. Might be a mental condition, who knows. Now even his friends are telling him in so many words to; just STFU you don't know what you're talking about and even now he can't help himself. Sad  . It's funny how he blames me for all his troubles now. Forget the fact that he has 17 pages of replies about a subject he obviously knows nothing about. Classic sociopathic behavior. It's always somebody elses fault. To top it all off he wants us to know he can't have a personal relationship because of his behavior. This is the second or third post that he's brought this up, and yet he still can't believe any of this could be his fault. Just sad. This could have been a fun thread. Those with experience sharing their knowledge and those that wanted to know more could have asked questions and learned a lot. While I've done it I'm sure I could have learned alot more about it. But, we got a few posters on here that thought they knew what was best for people more so than the people know for themselves and here we are. One thought if he told us he killed thousands of deer we would all some how be impressed with his feats and look at him as an authority. Of coarse we all know were that attempt went . One shot a deer with a .223 and had a bad experience back in the 60's and thinks nothing has changed, and then we have this ridiculous blowhard without any experience at all that wants to push his misguided moral values on all of us.Hunting deer with a .223 with premium bullets isn't as challenging as some think it is. Lots of people here have done it and know. There is a wealth of information to be learned if some would just open your minds and let it in. They may decide it's not for them and that's ok, but they should stop trying to tell others that know what they're doing that it's bad idea. They don't know because they haven't done it. It's really that simple...... Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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KY I think when someone outed you as a democrat you just had to start throwing insults. These are some of my favorite quotes from this thread:
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So, obviously I was giving TC1 more credit than he deserved, since at the time he appeared to have better sense than enter this farce. I've been wrong before, but seldom as off base as that time. I was right about my entering it though. Another thing, TC1 apparantly has been editing and deleting some of his posts, since that "Aw, never mind" was captured in my post. You know to me partial truths and twisted truths, when one does it intentionally, knowing it's partial and twisted, like a partial quote specifically to twist its original meaning, is no different than lying. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure out what I'm saying here. Another thing, apparantly not only do you do that, but appear to be proud of it. If you were uncertain before, now you can be certain that this post is questioning your ethics. You can be proud to be in the company of TC1. Peas in a pod, bought and paid for. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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And even now he can't help himself. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I still think when someone outed you as a democrat you just had to start throwing insults. It really explains how desperate you are about having someone validate your opinion. Kind of one of those "misery loves company" things. It must be hard for you, while not being confident of your own abilities to see that others are quite comfortable with theirs.
You're so smug knowing that you've never back edited your posts. I think I laughed so hard I might have peed a little. Let me check.... Nope no stain.
If I had a single reason to value your opinion in questioning my ethics as it pertains to the subject of this thread, I might have to cry.  Your trying to somehow shame the consistent success of others based on your ethics is admitting you've lost the discussion so decisively because there's no evidence to support your opinion.
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[/QUOTE] Notice that I didn't question your ethics regarding your opinion about the 223, or your chosen profession, or your professional skills, because that would be doing something which you would have no problem doing to me. That's why you questioned me about my profession, I'm sure. But instead I called you an intentional liar regarding a specifec aspect - namely a quote, intentionally chopped to alter its original meaning and context. However, when one crosses the line in one regard - lying - then the question arises: just where is that person's line regarding ethics? Of course I can't answer that regarding you. All I can do is present the question. If it's important to you, answer it for yourself. Otherwise ignore it. Either way, makes no difference to me. It's a personal thing - yours, not mine. Based on the evidence that you value ethics little, I suspect that you will just ignore it. What's whether I'm a democrat or not got to do with anything? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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[/QUOTE] As I recall, TC1 smugly accused me of back editing my posts, which I never denied. I just thought it amusing to see that TC1 was doing what he so readily accused me of doing. Apparantly TC1 can learn something from others. An old dog can teach a puppy new tricks. However my editing was to remove some personal stuff that I saw you and others would readily use against me, and his editing appears to be to remove some of his more rancid insults and stupid comments, in an effort to look good. I'll bet he looked up the meaning of sociopath, since that's what I called him, and now with a broader vocabulary he is practicing the use of a new word, which has been a part of his character all along. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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My favorite Notice how even now he can't address the issues and wants to sidestep. No experience = No argument. None of this could possibly be his fault could it?  -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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It's a well known fact that democrats think feelings and opinions are more important than facts. Pretty obvious while reading the substance, or lack there of, of all these posts. | |||
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I can't say what is obvious to you, because your view is slanted so much, but I can say that I would rather be in the company of democrats than either you or and especially TC1. The two of you make democrats look good in comparison. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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 KB! If you stop screwing around with these trolls perhaps they will dry up and blow away.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Then again, maybe not. Hunting deer with a .223 isn't that hard. No matter much that seems to piss you off Roger, it's the truth. Just because you had one bad experience with it a very long time ago it's no reason to comdem it forever. Things have changed, they make a lot better bullets today and it's not nearly the stunt you think it is. Just because you couldn't bully others into your way of thinking there is no need to get your panties in a wad about it. Funny that you would think I was trolling this thread. I've done it (this century.) Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Thanks bartsche, that's the best advice I've had in a long time. So, now gunmaker jerk has made my ignore list too. It's unfortunate that the ignore list only works if logged in. While logged out, I was unfortunate to see a little of TC1's posts, and see that he is unashamed to plagiarize some of my best insults and use them against others. That's amusing. I've got a lot more where those came from. Obviously the guy has selective learing, but learning nonetheless. Maybe he's not as dense as I thought, only selectively dense. Unfortunate for him, according to the reading I've done on the subject, once a sociopath, always a sociopath - unredeemable. Kind of like a pervert. The guy can't even coin his own insults, that's pathetic.KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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The Ostrage defense. Probably your best move. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Ha! Ha! ha!ROTFLMO! Man, that's rich! The fact that he thinks anybody would believe this is just too funny! He still can't control himself even now stupidity on parade  -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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That's right, I only select to learn based on facts. I wouldn't want to cloud my judgment on an issue based on someone else's feelings. I might think there's global warming or something. My learning process has been severely tainted by growing up as the son of a mad scientist who had no use whatsoever for opinions, only real tangible evidence. How's that hope & change working out for ya? | |||
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