After coming to the range with me throughout the summer, I am playing with idea of buying my daughter her first center-fire rifle. She loves to shoot her 10/22 and my wife's 223, and to the amazement of everyone around, my 338 edge (very light recoil). Her issue is recoil. I've noticed that her accuracy really tapers off with anything more then that 223. This becomes an issue when deciding on what to get her. I want her to shoot enough to become proficient, but excess recoil might discourage that. Which brings me to the whole point of this thread. What is the smallest cartrige that you would use for deer? Let me remind everyone by saying that this is not a thread on the theoretical minimum for deer, we all know that a 22LR will do the job. Rather, what is smallest chambering that you would feel comfortable taking deer hunting?

One more thing, please don't turn this into a pissing match on how the .223 is not suitable for deer sized game.

Lotsa deer have been killed by careful and accurate hunters using .222s and .223s. The ones I know that do it routinely have probably never shot a deer at even 100 yards. Knowing the cartridge's limitations is important. I don't recommend it but you can't argue with results.
I would think that moving up to a .260 wouldn't be too much of a challenge if she is enthusiastic about shooting.
I have a 9 yo grandson that is kinda small for his age and he doesn't have a problem with the .260. I have killed several deer with a .260 and it is a hammer. These were 100-125# whitetails.

I have used a 22rf on deer, shot through the eye on frontal shots. Gets the job done.
Have, and do, use a 222 Rem often on our Fallow deer, it also gets the job done if a high lung shot into the spine is made. I also use a 257AI or 25-06 on large deer, Sambar here from India run 600lbs+.
If recoil is a problem, maybe a 22-250 is the upper limit to test/train her with?
Practice is the only way to overcome recoil, starting light and working up slowly over many weeks.
I don't see a problem with using a 223 on deer if her skills are adequate to do so.

Cheers.

.224

But you have to be willing to pass up some shots.

Light loads in a 7mm08 are easy on the shoulder. My wife and kids had no trouble with the recoil of a lightly loaded 7mm08 with a 120g bullet

I built 6 x 45 on a Sako L461 action with a 20" 5C Broughton barrel and a McMillan stock for my youngest son.
Three shots, three deer, all DRT.
85gr Sierra Game King over 25.5gr of H4895 for about 2825 FPS
It has no more perceptible recoil then a 223 with 65gr bullets and it looks similar enough to a 223 to not elivate anxiety about a bigger gun.

Think of it as a 243 light.

If you don't wish to dedicate a bolt gun it's a cheap easy swap on an AR platform. All you need is a replacement barrel and 6 x 45 will feed and function from a standard magazine.

I'll make my pitch to Ruger again for a American youth model in 6X45 with a light contour 20" barrel and adjustable length of pull.

Best of luck to you in supporting your daughter in her hunting endeavor.

Hi
Use a 7.62x39 (AKM) in a bolt action low recoil and easy to shoot + ammo plenty

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by thecanadian:
After coming to the range with me throughout the summer, I am playing with idea of buying my daughter her first center-fire rifle. She loves to shoot her 10/22 and my wife's 223, and to the amazement of everyone around, my 338 edge (very light recoil). Her issue is recoil. I've noticed that her accuracy really tapers off with anything more then that 223. This becomes an issue when deciding on what to get her. I want her to shoot enough to become proficient, but excess recoil might discourage that. Which brings me to the whole point of this thread. What is the smallest cartrige that you would use for deer? Let me remind everyone by saying that this is not a thread on the theoretical minimum for deer, we all know that a 22LR will do the job. Rather, what is smallest chambering that you would feel comfortable taking deer hunting?

One more thing, please don't turn this into a pissing match on how the .223 is not suitable for deer sized game.

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:
Hi
Use a 7.62x39 (AKM) in a bolt action low recoil and easy to shoot + ammo plenty

Cheers

+1

Doh!
Homer

Go to the JBM Ballistics site. They have a recoil calculator there. You can factor in rifle and bullet weight. For example, an 8# 243 will produce about 9 ft. lbs of recoil. A 260 Rem of the same weight will generate about 10 ft. lbs. It will also give you recoil velocity.

Don't forget that muzzle blast is a factor, too. Stick with a barrel of normal length, say 22". And no brake, please.

Shooting technique can help a lot. Teach her to follow through, keep her head down, and stay in the rifle. And how to call her shots. This will help her become a better shot and hunter.

I see no reason why she should not be able to handle a 243 or 260 comfortably. I would suggest the 260, either the 260 Rem or one of the others. (Not a 6.5 x 284).

Lastly, you could install a recoil reducer in the stock, though I doubt it will be necessary.

I have two sons, neither of whom have any interest in hunting or shooting. No daughters. Want to trade?

Hi point has brought out a .380acp carbine that would be a legal deer round in Wis.

I would think your 223 with a proper bullet would be just fine.

I've taken deer with:

204 Ruger (250+ yards)
222 Remington
22-250 Remington (one at 360 yards)

I think the 223 Remington would be a good choice though I've never used that cartridge for deer. The 22-250 is a little step up in power and the recoil isn't that bad.

One thing, make sure the twist on whatever you choose is suitable for the bullets you plan to use. Some 22-250s, for instance, have a stupidly slow 1:14 twist.

And p dog shooter, I think a 380 ACP would be a bad choice in whatever you planned to use. I once shot a ground hog at a distance of about 3 feet with one in the back of the head. It got back into its hole. Two or three months later, I shot a groundhog with a healed wound on the back of it's head.

The only rifle my uncle owned was a 222. He killed at least one deer with it every year for 30 years. Wouldn't be my first choice but it worked for him. 222 or 223 will work with good shot placement.

A couple points have been made. # 1 shoot them in the right spot and a 22 will do the job. # 2 A few shots may have to be passed up.Not really fair to saddle a youngster with the task of having to make a perfect shot and knowing when a shot should be passed on. So to compensate for this you need enough rifle to do the job even "IF" the shot placement is less than perfect, yet not so much rifle that they can't handle the recoil. With some of the lighter calibres the bullet you use is almost as important as the caliber. The 243 works but use a 100 gr bullet. Don't use a light varmit bullet designed to shoot prairie dogs. The 250 Sav is great IF you can find one. May be easier to find a small doner rifle and put a new barrel on. The 260 Rem is great also, but don't be shooting varmit bullets . If you can find a little bolt gun in 7.62x39 that will make a super little deer rifle for a youngster.

My daughters all started deer hunting with a 223 and it worked OK but blood trails could be slim to none. I later figured out that for short ranges something like a 45 Colt loaded to subsonic speeds has even less recoil but passes through a deer which leaves better blood trails. Which then leads to almost any cartridge loaded down a bit or a lot depending on what it is can work just fine. What do you have that the kid can handle and what loads can you make?

If you want exit wounds use a .223 with 50 grain Barnes X or TSX or any variation (TTSX etc).
Lots of drop in their tracks or the typical run 30 yards heart shots. Of all the deer I've known that were shot with .223's and Barnes X I can't think of one that didn't exit and these shots are about 225 yards and under.
The most important thing is that your shooter is comfortable shooting the rifle and accurate with it, that builds confidence.
There is not a deer on the planet that will survive a heart or lung shot from a .223, especially with the above mentioned Barnes bullets.
I also don't see a problem having young shooters wait for the right shot no matter what round they are shooting, I think it is poor form to try to teach them that a bigger cartridge will solve the problem of not having a good shot.
When she's older if she chooses she can step up in caliber for other game (Elk!)
But for now if she shoots a .223 well then go with it.
You will have a happy shooter and a happy dad!

If she can handle the .223 and shoot it well, it will work just fine on deer. Use a decent bullet, and put it through the vitals, and you'll have a dead deer EVERY time.

I killed ~25 whitetails with my .22-250 using Remington 55 grain PSPs, back in the days before there were many controlled-expansion .224" bullets available.

I will throw a 2nd in for the 260 Rem. My 10 yr old, who yesterday weighed 64 pounds has taken deer, duiker, impala and wildebeest with his. He handles the recoil just fine. His 260 is light and does kick but it has such a soft pad he doesn't feel it.

But, I agree with Snelltrom, if she shoots your 223 well then use it. I'm not really a fan of it as a deer round for a youngster because there is very little room for error but if willing to wait for the perfect shot, then go for it. I'm a heavy bullet man so I would load it up with a 70gr Hot Core or TSX to help that margin of error as much as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
If she can handle the .223 and shoot it well, it will work just fine on deer. Use a decent bullet, and put it through the vitals, and you'll have a dead deer EVERY time.

I killed ~25 whitetails with my .22-250 using Remington 55 grain PSPs, back in the days before there were many controlled-expansion .224" bullets available.

Very true. Get her within range and the .223 will do fine. Had a friend when I was a teenager that hunted with me. He dropped Montana Mule deer with a .22 Hornet. Placement is everything.

I am going to go along with the .243 and 100 grain bullets. I personally don't like the .243, but it has a proven track record.

I also agree with these thoughts:

quote:

A couple points have been made. # 1 shoot them in the right spot and a 22 will do the job. # 2 A few shots may have to be passed up.Not really fair to saddle a youngster with the task of having to make a perfect shot and knowing when a shot should be passed on.

I agree with the idea of getting the kid a caliber she can shoot accurately every shot, but one mistake I have seen Dad's and GrandDad's make is setting a kid at a bench and expecting the kid to shoot MOA immediately. The result being that the bench sessions would become too long and recoil and muzzle blast begin affecting the kid's accuracy and sometimes their desire to shoot/hunt.

It is like seeing a kid show up for their first dove hunt with a .410, instead of starting the kid out with a 20 gauge, the parent/grandparent tries to make things a little easier, not taking into consideration a person using a .410 has to pretty much be an expert at judging range and lead, where with a 20 there is more room for success.

My wife uses a .257 Roberts, but there can be issues concerning ammo availability if a person does not hand load/reload. The 6.5x55 would also be a good choice in a properly stocked/sized/weighted rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
My daughters all started deer hunting with a 223 and it worked OK but blood trails could be slim to none.

Put a .223 into the heart/lungs and you won't need a "blood trail".

Curiously, I've never seen a deer shot with a .22 Centerfire that didn't go down either in its tracks or within 30 yards. I've seen plenty of them shot with larger calibers which went a couple of hundred yards.

I own dozens of rifles and could have outfitted my grandsons with nearly any caliber. I chose a .223 with a short barrel and trimmed down stock for their first deer hunting experiences because (1) it is much more important that they shoot it well than that they shoot it "hard", and (2) I wanted them to have the positive result of seeing their game fall as a result of shooting it. The little gun didn't disappoint in either respect. I also loaned it to a hunting partner for his grandson. Same result.

You can monkey with other guns and loads, but if your daughter shoots the .223 you own well, then look no further.

With the right bullet (Barnes TSX or TTSX for me), the .223 is capable. My grandmother used a .222 for years (after a 32-20) and did well with it using Speer bullets.

I know you asked for smallest but why not a classic Marlin 30-30? Used one for my first deer and there was no issue (I was 5' and about 85 pounds). Gives a bigger hole in the deer for about the same recoil I would think.

If you already have a 243-260-7mm08-308 rifle, try the Remington Reduced Recoil loads in one of those rifles. That may delay the need for a new rifle until she's grown.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
If you already have a 243-260-7mm08-308 rifle, try the Remington Reduced Recoil loads in one of those rifles. That may delay the need for a new rifle until she's grown.

+1 and add the great 6,5x55 to the list, which would be my Nr 1 for her. Deer are generally larger and heartier the farther North you go . . . vs the lighter variety down south.

Far more important than caliber is the following:

1-Being a good shot with your rifle. That is able to put the bullet where you want it on demand no matter what position or range in a limited period of time. If possible take her to an Appleseed, believe me you will be surprised how much is learned there.

2-Having the rifle fit the person using it, meaning able to handle it, load it, fire it without undue punishment and of course length of pull. Since she likes her 10/22 how about a Ruger Mini 14, it’s available in .223 or 7.62x39. This would keep her in the same type of rifle she likes and are more or less the same shape and size.

3-Get the book The Perfect Shot, North America: Shot Placement for North American Big Game by Craig Boddington. This will teach where to put the bullet.

4-Whatever caliber you select that she can shoot well, a good bullet is a must. Specially if it is a small caliber like the .223. As others have said the TSX or Nosler Partition is a must.

Hope this helps a bit. And good luck with the hunt. You are a very lucky man with a daughter that shares your passion for the sport.

Triple deuce is my answer... and use a quality bullet designed for penetration. The little partitions or Barnes come to mind.

Just before my dad died, we had ONE more deer hunt but the doctor (who is a hunter) said the recoil would be too much for the surgical areas of dad's brain. Doc said "do you have a varmint rifle?" The answer was "yes" and the results were dead buck and happy dad. 3 generations were there for that last outing and dad didn't live long enough to enjoy the meat but we did.

Since then, most of my 4 daughters have started out with the 222 on deer and they never lost one but I didn't let them shoot wildly or too far.

Zeke

I spent enough time in WI to know thecanadian's query is best answered if respondents have a very good idea about the sort of cover he is hunting, ie., whether it is open farmland fields vs thick cedar swamps up north.

Context, more than anything else, is what determines my notion of a "floor" re bullet diameter and weight.

I would say 6.8 SPC or a 6.5 Grendel wouldn't be much difference in recoil over a 223. Only factory bolt action in either caliber is a mini Howa in 6.5 Grendel.


https://www.gunsamerica.com/bl...6-5-grendel-package/

+1

I have a 72 pound youngster shooting my rifle in 6.8 SPC and recoil is not an issue.

I would use a .223 for deer, even a .30 Carbine, if I had to. The range would have to be close, the shot would have to be in a vital spot, and I would like the terrain to be open in case things went wrong. But I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it. Thank goodness we have other choices.

I think the 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, .250 Savage and similar cartridges are adequate. Just about anything .25 caliber and up. I am no fan of the .243 but I did kill an antelope and a deer with one and it did okay. The .25-45 Sharps holds some promise.

http://www.alloutdoor.com/2015...s-mettle-whitetails/

300 Blackout or BLK/300 whisper.
Use 100 grain ESP Raptor.

Stonecreek nailed it. If the shot isn't right it isn't right and big magnums, unlike you might have been told at the gun counter don't make bad hits good. If it's an iffy shot---you pass no matter how big the gun. The .223 or .222 with 55 grain cup and core bullet placed in right spot create work to be done, the fun is over, you now need a sharp knife. Over past several years I've seen bunches taken with that combination.

I really like the suggestion of 6X45. Heavier bullet than the 223 at a little less velocity but works better on deer sized game IMO. That and at a very low recoil level.

I might have her try a 30-30 with the Remington managed recoil ammo.
125 grain bullet, very light recoil.

here is a link;
https://www.remington.com/ammu...rifle/managed-recoil

300 blackout-within 150 yds.fits the 5.56/223 action

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
300 blackout-within 150 yds.fits the 5.56/223 action

Bingo!
Subsonic loads for practice. The noise scares most kids.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
If you already have a 243-260-7mm08-308 rifle, try the Remington Reduced Recoil loads in one of those rifles. That may delay the need for a new rifle until she's grown.

+1 but I would go with the larger calibers. Only because 260 and up have a touch more versatility. 7-08 and 308 have lots of ammo options too, 308 being the best in that regard. Or you can always spend a few bucks more and have a muzzle brake. I think the A-Bolt Browning rifles still offer them as factory accessories. Better still a suppressor if they're legal in Wisconsin.

Thanks for your input guys. I think we are going to have her try out the .223 this year. She will be just turning 10 during gun season so she is going to have to have an adult next to her to coach her through the shot. The .223 is actually my wife's deer gun. To date, she has taken 4 deer with it. Problem is, since it is 'her' gun, she now wants to take the kid out hunting a few days.

There's a lot of good advice here. You might think of starting her with a .243 Loaded down to drive a 100 gr. bullet to a little over 2900 fps. This would put it into the .250-3000 performance range and commercial ammo would not be so hard to come by. roger

There is a very big difference in recoil and blast from a .223 to a .243. An adult MIGHT say it's really not that much, but there certainly is a big difference. To me moving a child from a .223 to a .243 would be about the same as moving an adult from 3 0-06 to a larger kicking magnum. The .223 works so well, why bother? If they make a bad shot with a .223 you'll get bad results, but wait that will happen with a bigger gun too. The odds are better of them making a good shot with a gun they can handle. The topic wasn't should a .223 or .222 be used, it was what is the smallest? I have never seen nor tried a .204 Ruger on a deer, but I don't see how a deer would not die pretty close to the spot where a .204 bullet was placed in either their heart, lung, or liver or a combination thereof.

Thinking in terms of what I'd feel the most confidence in if I were shooting the rifle in question myself: I would be MUCH more confident shooting a .223 loaded with run-of-the-mill Remington SP's than I would in shooting a .30-30 or any of the "low recoil" (translation = low velocity) ammunition. Not that any of those won't kill a deer, just that the .223 is a better bet for any number of reasons.

Since The Canadian's wife already successfully shoots a .223 at deer, I'm not sure why he is even asking the question? If the issue is that an additional rifle is needed, then just go buy another .223.

Stonecreek nailed it again.

I seem to remember hearing someone in northwestern Pennsylvania talk about shooting deer with a 22 Hornet, in the 1950s. Cheaper ammunition than for the Krag, and useful for groundhogs as well (they ate the groundhogs). Then there is the 25-20, and other calibers built on the same case. I think the 25-20 variants are too short for Wyoming's game laws and not enough in other places with minimum muzzle energy requirements.

Nothing wrong with the 6x45mm, legal everywhere I'm aware of and enough if the shot's right. Energy makes recoil, how much is enough?