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Just for info, here are the individual US state and Canadian province legal minimums. Note that while the .223 is legal in your state of Wisconsin it is not legal in your neighboring states of Minnesota and Iowa: Alabama- centerfire Alaska- centerfire Alberta- .23 and up centerfire Arizona- centerfire Arkansas- .22 and up centerfire California- centerfire Colorado- .24 and up, 70grn or larger bullet/ minimum of 1000ft/lbs at 100 yards Connecticut- .243 and up if legal in your area Delaware- shotgun/muzzle loader Florida- centerfire Georgia- .22 and up centerfire Hawaii- Any rifle with at least 1200 ft/lbs of ME. This would start at around .223 I think Idaho- Centerfire (cannot weigh more than 16 lbs?) Illinois- Shotgun/ML/Pistol only Indiana- Rifles with pistol calibers/shotgun/ML/Pistols Iowa- .24 or larger centerfire only for antlerless season in part of the state. Kansas- .23 or larger centerfire (actually says larger than .23 so maybe .24 is the mininum) kentucky- centerfire Louisiana- .22 and up centerfire Maine- .22 magnum rimfire and up! Manitoba- Centerfire, but it says .23 and below not recommended. Does not say illegal though. Maryland- ME of at least 1200 ft/lbs Mass- Shotgun/ML Michigan- centerfire in certain areas Minnesota- .24 and up centerfire Mississippi- No restrictions that I could find Missouri- centerfire Montana- No restrictions Nebraska- Rifles with 900 ft/lbs or more at 100 yards Nevada- .22 centerfire and up New Hampshire- centerfire New Jersey- shotgun only New Mexico- centerfire New York- centerfire North Carolina- No restrictions North Dakota- .22-.49 centerfire Nova Scotia- .23 and up Ohio- Shotgun/ML Oklahoma- centerfire with 55 grn or heavier bullet Ontario- centerfire Oregon- .22 centerfire and up Pennsylvania- centerfire Quebec- 6mm/.243 and up Rhode Island- shotgun/ML Saskatchewan- .24 and up South Carolina- centerfire South Dakota- rifles with 1,000 ft/lbs or more ME Tennessee- centerfire Texas- centerfire Utah- centerfire vermont- No restriction Virginia- .23 centerfire and up Washington- .24 centerfire and up West Virginia- .25 rimfire and up and all centerfire Wisconsin- .22 centerfire and up Wyoming- .23 centerfire and up . | |||
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Now that's an eye-opener. Wyoming also has a two-inch minimum length (I think - it's not clear to me whether that's case length or OAL). TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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One other thing that has to be taken into consideration and was mentioned by another member:
Whitetail deer are not all the same size or are hunted under the exact same conditions. A shot from a blind/stand at a measured 100 yards on a 150 pound or less whitetail in Texas is not the same as a walking shot at an unknown range in heavy cover. I think too many hunters do not take such parameters into consideration. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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To answer the question, both of my girls started shooting with a .22RF. Then when my youngest was 12 she wanted to go deer hunting with me. Once she shot my 6.5-284, it was all over. That is all she has used since. She doesn't want to hunt with any of the others. It is not "her" gun. I would start the with 260 as a minimum for deer. Grenadier, I think Kansas changed the minimum. It now just says:
Kansas Legal Equipment Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I would agree. For example, it is one thing to read about hunting the north woods as a southerner, but entirely another when you actually go there. Shooting over a corn field after harvest is completely different that shooting over a WY prairie. Both open spaces, but hard to hang a tree stand in the treeline in WY, and, outside of a hurricane, I don't think the wind in Mississippi can blow as hard as WY. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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with the newer bonded or monolithic projectiles-- what ever the legal minimum is- (that said- we have culled with suppressed 17HMR's and head shots) -(with DF&W approval) | |||
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Canadian, you are lucky to have a daughter interested in shooting and hunting. Keep her interested. Get her her own rifle she can take pride in. Teach her how to care for that rifle and she should have it lifelong. Besides the recoil, the gun should fit her. If your rifle was too long for you, would you want to wait several years to grow into it? The best solution would be get her a rifle and also get an extra stock. The stock that is available today, might not be available in a few years. Cut the ugliest of the two stocks down to fit her now and when she grows, change to the other. She will have the short stock available for when your grandkids start shooting. Post some pictures of her when she gets her gun and her deer. | |||
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Ive killed too many deer with the 222, 223 and 22-250 to feel undergunned, and the only deer Ive ever wounded was with larger rifles and that was two, both were eventually recovered..Its where you stick a proper bullet..My favorite lightest rifle for deer is the 6x45 with monolithic bullets from GS Customs..Im also very fond of the 25-35 and 250-3000..All of which would suit me fine on any day. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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FWIW, Four or so years ago, a couple of weeks before deer season began here in Texas, a couple of elderly gents are shooting on our range. One has a Savage 340 in 22 hornet. He will shoot a couple of rounds at about 30 yds, then a couple at about 50 yds and finishes shooting a couple of shots at about 75 yds. Hear him tell his friend, "well I'm ready for deer season." This will prompt me to have a short chat with the elderly 22 Hornet owner. He hunted on Texas Hill country land and used the 22 Hornet 340 for the last 30 or so years. Majority of his shots were around 50 yds or less and 75 yds was max he'd take a shot. He took only head or neck shots. Asked him, if he'd ever lost a deer after shooting it. He thought hard for a few seconds and replied, yep, I can recall two deer that I'm pretty sure I hit, that got away. Told me another hunter in area had fired just as he was squeezing the trigger, causing the deer to jerk their head or I'd dropped them too. | |||
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As a young boy I shot deer every day with a 22 Rem. mod 12 pump to feed a big fencing crew on our partnership leased ranch in Mexico. Made enough money to buy a Win. 25-35 that summer, and and a Win. 63 22 that I still have today. It was a better deer rifle!!..I also fed the local Federales and traded deer for quail in the nearby village of Boquillas, Costalon and ?????. Those deer in that particular area had never been hunted much at all because the Gov. had obsconded with many of the local guns from time to time, and most couldn't afford money for a box of 22s as a matter of fact.. My shots were from 25 to 30 yards horseback with two quick shots in the lungs and ride off without pushing the deer, shot 5 to 8 deer per day that way, made a circle and came back and gutted them all, as they layed down and died where I shot them. I would get some of the fence crew to help me pack them to camp.. I never lost a deer, not one. I was taught by one of the local Mexican meat hunters how to hunt deer with a 22..99% of the deer shot in most parts of Mexico are shot by locals with 22 Long rifles, and they sell the meat in the villages, many of those deer were poached in the Big Bend Park area and smuggled back into Boquillas Mex. at night, still are today.. Point being that it makes no difference what caliber you use if you place the bullet properly, use the right bullet and adjust yourself to the calibers ability, and know how to hunt the area. I also used the 22 on our Texas ranch to shoot Javalinas at 50 cents apiece for my dad as they were chewing holes in the plastic pipe water lines to get a drink, sometime it looked like a sprinkler systems for up to half a mile and that's lots of patching!! They were also bad about chewing ceder fence posts up on our fenceline..Back then their was no season on them and they were considered varmints..Today their is a 6 months season in the Big Bend area, not sure what the limit is, but deer and Javalina have been commercialized and bring big bucks to the ranchers, so the are very forgiving to the little varmints now, and that's a good thing. I recall many of the ranchers that used the Win. mod. 53 in 218 Bee and 22 Hornet or the nice Win. 92 in 219 Zipper on Mule deer, The 25-35s were very popular especially for a kids first rifle or for the ladies, and the 30-30 reined...The 250 mod. 99 was very popular and still is, as was the 300 Savage, and a few mod. 95s in 30-06 or 30-40 were around..I only remember seeing one magnum and that was a mod. 70 in 300 H&H and I was a senior in high school, I lusted for that one, and a number of years later I got several of them and still have one...I was a grown man when the the 06, 270, and a few magnums came into play, I read Jack O'Connor, and cussed Elmer Keith cuz Jack didn't like him!!  ..I remember I couldn't wait to get my hands on the new 243, the 300 Win, a 264, and the wildcats of the day. I wanted and got about every new caliber that came out and had to hunt with it and see how it killed game..That was the game. Those were the days! I wouldn't trade a day of it... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I'll throw in another vote for the 300 Blackout. Ruger makes an American model bolt with a shorter stock version that would be a perfect deer gun. 110 to 125 gr bullet and 30/30 ballistics. | |||
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Do you remember what type bullets you were using? Thank you. | |||
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Just a Hunter--Your results on a large hog with a tough 55 grain cup and core match results I've seen with that combo on deer. Good picture. | |||
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A couple of preceding points... You said take hunting which to me means... 1) I may not get a perfect target... 2) I am going for a quick clean kill and it may be under less than desireable target presentation. 3) I may be presented with a at 200-300 yards My minimum for deer would be 6.5mm Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I agree with the post of 243 to 7mm-08.. if recoil is an issue, get a muzzle brake that can be used for practice and removed for hunting..It does reduce recoil a lot. Paul Gulbas | |||
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The trouble with muzzle brakes and little kids or beginning shooters is that the muzzle blast is usually magnified many times. Sometimes for these young and or sensitive shooters to feel the blast from the muzzle brake is enough to put them off, I've seen it. I understand the bigger is better thought process but I don't agree with it. First hand I've killed a pile of deer with a 22/250 and what would seem like totally unsuitable bullets for the task but every one of them fell where they stood and I've seen nearly as many deer shot with .223's with same results and thirdly I've had dozens of first hand accounts related to me with the same results and not one story of the one hit and got away. (it can happen to anyone no matter what caliber you shoot) Far too many kills to make it a "stunt" or for "experts only", little boys and little girls dropping deer right and left with .223's. If you want to "up" the insurance use a Barnes x or TTSX or other Mono or bonded and at almost any angle you'll get an exit. No need to subject young or sensitive shooters to muzzle blast or recoil we are only killing Deer here, not stopping Grizzly Bear charges... | |||
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with recoil sensitivity, assuming you handload what I would do is get a .308 and a suppressor if it is legal where you are. Ideally to both hunt and shoot with, but if nothing else most folks don't feel recoil when they shoot game. The silencer really takes recoil down and the lack of muzzle blast is good as well. With a .308, no angle on a deer is a bad angle and the cartridge is known for accuracy. I have seen too many wounded animals that folks didn't realize were hit from small bores. Its a bit much to expect an anxious new shooter to remember anatomy, trigger squeeze and sighting at first, so a more powerful round if they can handle it is good. With a suppressor, it is amazing how much some folks can do. | |||
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The more I consider the situation, the more I agree with this statement. She shoots a 223 well and bullet development has legitimized the 223 to more than people just taking neck and head shots. Bullets like TSX, Partition & Nosler Bonded should drive the bullet deep from any reasonable angle. I know cheaper bullets work well in the lungs, head and neck. | |||
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And it appears this is now happening. I know, you couldn't help yourselves. | |||
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This can't be reiterated enough. Deer are NOT hard to kill. It's pretty widely accepted that an arrow fired from a 45-lb bow will reliably kill a deer, and it has VASTLY less kinetic energy than any centerfire rifle does. Deer are neither big, nor tough, nor dangerous. It doesn't take a big gun to kill them. Just my opinion, but worrying about raking shots, bad angles, obstructions, etc when we're talking about a young, inexperienced shooter is kind of a moot point. It's best for kids to get a few deer under their belt under relatively controlled conditions (stand hunting, animal is still and unobstructed) before they start going on deer drives in heavy cover. The OP is from Texas, so getting his youngster a relatively easy shot ought to be pretty simple. | |||
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I have walked away from any number of iffy antelope shots, there will be a better one tomorrow... TomP Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when wrong to be put right. Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906) | |||
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This is my daughter with the wife's gun. The stock has a 11.5" length of pull, still a little long for her. I'm probably going to cut down the stock it came with to 9" so she can shoot it while wearing a coat.  "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
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A 22 center fire is legal for deer in Wisconsin but may not be elsewhere. Keep that in mind. I would think a 243 or something in that recoil/power range with a mercury recoil reducer in the stock may be tolerable. | |||
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CRBUTLER, tell us more about the many animals that were hit with small calibers. Were they later found? Where had they been hit? What rifle and what bullet? I've not experienced it and would like to avoid it, maybe your input with the experience can help make it avoidable. | |||
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You funny guy.... | |||
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Not my first choice but I have killed several deer with my .22-250 and know quite a few guys that use a .22-250 almost exclusively for deer/antelope here in MT. I started my 12 yo daughter and 10 yo son last year with .243s for their first "big game" rifles. They both shot them pretty well at first with hunting loads using 100 grain power points or the 85 tsx. Both rifles were "youth rifles" with shorter barrels and relatively light weight (one a ruger compact laminate, the other a remington 700 synthetic). My daughter fired two shots from her ruger during the season and killed a called in coyote and a young buck. Seems to shoot it comfortably for a few shots each practice session. My son, who was the one I expected to do well, missed cleanly several coyotes and deer. I was really surprised because he shoots more than his sister and always did a nice job on targets and small game. I shot slow-mo videos of him target shooting the other day. Somewhere in the last year he has developed a bad habit of closing his eyes right before he pulls (more like slaps) the trigger on his .243 and had a hard time hitting jugs at 250 yards. He asked if he could hunt with an AR this year.He shoots them quite well and can hit ground squirrels fairly regularly within 100-150 yards off a bipod and I am leaning that way. I have a Rock River with a 1:8 barrel and a muzzle break that should shoot the heavier hunting bullets really well with minimal recoil. I would much rather he put a small bullet in the right place than a larger bullet in the wrong one. The key will be getting him set up with a good rest and plenty of time to make it a positive experience. | |||
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6mmBR would be as small as I'd go, but I doubt that I will ever replace the 6.5x47 Lapua that I use now | |||
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Minimum in Minnesota per the reg book is at least .220 caliber and has centerfire ignition. Still using my .270, as I hunt over some open fields in addition to the thick woods, though I know most I've shot with it at short range could have been done by a smaller round. "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." | |||
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My personal preference for minimum deer caliber is 6mm with 100 grain lead core, or 85/90 grain monometal bullets. Much more important to me though, would be a rifle that fits. Whether it's a stock cut to length with a nice recoil pad added, or a youth model that she can try out, proper fit is crucial. Two, let her decide what kind of rifle she likes. Simple things like the angle of the bolt handle, or type and location of safety can really make a difference. So if you do decide to get her a rifle, I would suggest getting her what she wants, not what you like. Unless of course she asks for a Kilimanjaro Artemis rifle.  | |||
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Sevastopol, Sorry for the delay, been busy..I have no idea what bullets I used back then, didn't know one from another, and used factory ammo as I was just learning to reload about then...All the stuff I used worked, mostly because of bullet placement and very short range shots..I did notice the HP 22 L.R. seemed to penetrate as much as the solids in that both on broadside shots gave complete penetration with small exit holes..I also know that double lung shots were much more effective than heart shots, and as I rode off they lugn shot deer layed down, and heart shot deer would run a ways, fortunately I had some of the worlds best trackers being the Penetente Indians that worked on the fencing crew..Those guys were good..and they told me not use the heart shot..they were correct. It was an interesting time for 12 or 13 year old boy..I was truly blessed to grow up in such and enviorment. I still am opined that I will hunt with any caliber and adjust my hunting to fit the caliber. In doing so you must be willing to pass up iffy shots and it helps to be subsistence hunter, If I am trophy hunting deer I'll likely have my 270, 06 or 300 H&H, meat hunting these days calls for a 25-35, 30-30 or 250 Savage..I wouldn't today use a 22 L.R., there is no need this day and time. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Sounds like you had a great time and learned a lot. I appreciate the response. | |||
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I kind of got my feet dirty on this topic elsewhere, figured I would give my 2 cents worth in the proper thread. Probably get in trouble but here goes... In my area of the south Deer are on the smaller side. We don't grow Horses like you guys in the north ! Ranges are also short here in the southern woods. My uncle killed a good many with a 7.62x39 Russian. It's not small caliber wise, but it's a small cartridge. Plenty of Hunters I know have used pistol caliber lever actions, 357, 44mag, 45 colt ect. Again not small in caliber , but smaller cartridge. Guys in my area often get there wives/children something like a 6mm Remington or 243 Win. They seem to work just fine most of the time. If not hit well, they sure can run a long way ! I think the 250-3000 and 257 Roberts are great Whitetail cartridges. That is about as small, caliber wise , as I personally feel confident carrying... The .22 centerfires, I dunno. If someone wants to shoot Deer with them it's there right to do so. I'm not an expert so who am I to pass judgement. Im sure they can work. But in my head I have to ask : Is that all they have to shoot ? Can they not handle the recoil of anything bigger ? Is it because they only want to use an AR ? If a .22 centerfire is all you have, fine. If you prefer to hunt with an AR, also fine. If you are sensative to recoil and can't handle the kick of anything else, that's fine too. Otherwise I just wonder why not move up to something a little bit bigger ? Wyatt | |||
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KW--Not flaming with you. You are saying the 6mm and .243 are small and if not hit well---they can sure run. Guess what? That's true of much bigger guns. You all but put the .22 centerfires into the useless category. I wont ask, I'm pretty sure I know what your experience level with .22 centerfires on deer is. For years I used a 30-06 and moved down to a .243. (Certainly not a knock on the 30-06) I was not undergunned with the .243, it worked very well. Then I got to first hand see nephews and great nephews getting great results with .22 centerfires, so my last hunt, I carried my .223. Didn't get a shot, but would have been comfortable if I had. | |||
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Carpetman1- I'm not flaming you either. We are just two adults, contributing to a discussion. However, I did not say in my post " put the .22 centerfires in the useless category" as you stated. Please recheck the last two paragraphs of my post. I said I'm sure they can work. But then asked some questions.... Wyatt | |||
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KW---I said you all but said the .22 centerfires are useless which to me is about what you said. I'm sure they CAN work. 22 centerfires, I dunno. It's their right. Is that all they have to shoot? Can they not handle recoil of anything bigger? If that's not putting them into about useless I don't know what would be. I didn't ask directly nor did you state what your experience with it is. | |||
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I had a friend with health issues who could not tolerate recoil. He did a lot of research and built a 7MM TCU for deer. Virtually no recoil and he shot a pile of deer with it. My 6.5 Creedmoor is a pussycat to shoot also. With lighter bullets it should not bother her. | |||
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Not to highjack but I'm very interested in the bullet choices in 222 / 223. I'd like to see what guys favour that works in the 1 in 14's of the older Sako's (got a couple of them and not wanting to convert to 6x45!). I'm looking for the Norma Oryx, but tough to find here. Got Rhino's and could try GS but not really a mono guy myself.... There are quite a few good bullets in weights and designs appropriate for the faster twists, including the solid shank Nosler. Solid shank lead cores being my first choice. The TBBC is discontinued in the .224. | |||
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Leadwood--I have loaded for nephew, great nephew, grandson and other youth in both .222 and .223. I have used either Winchester bulk packed or Remington bulk packed, both in 55 grain. I suspect the Remingtons are their Core Lokt, not a premium bullet at all. Results could not be better. I have came to the conclusion that those that say you have to use a premium bullet are limited to the keyboard in usage. | |||
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I have shot a single 100-pound hog with a .223 52 grain Barnes TSX. Solid double lung hit from inside 50 yards, just behind the heart. Small hole in, small hole out, very marginal damage to both lungs. Hog didn't run farther than others I have shot, but no blood on the ground, and in the swamps of central Florida I never would have gotten that pig if it wasn't for a dog. I've also had a 130 grain .270 Hornady Interlock blow up on the shoulder of a large black bear. Thankfully a follow-on shot broke his back and allowed me to close the distance for a finisher in the neck. While I definitely believe to each their own, when we're talking about taking a life, I believe the attitude of using as little gun/cheapest bullets available as possible is in very poor taste. I won't say unethical, but definitely getting there. By all means load up the bulk package bullets and decimate paper, plastic and metal targets. Makes you that much better. But respect the life you're looking to take and use a big enough bullet that's been designed by it's maker for taking big game. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should; and just because you can drive nails with a wrench doesn't make it the right tool for the job. | |||
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The ones I saw were typically people saying they missed. We then found dead deer a week or so later that had been gut shot or hit a bit further back in the lung area. The folks doing the shooting tended to be new hunters, and honestly thought they had missed. They did not see the deer buck or react to the shot and were sure that given they found no blood that they missed. The worst one I saw was a guy who made all the blather on how he was a crack shot with a .22-250, killed PD's to 600, etc. who saw a monster 10 pt buck and took a hard left side quartering shot. He figured that bullet would drive through... We found that deer during muzzleloader season, dead.... A couple miles from where he shot it, bedded up. He thought it would drop and he could track it. A bad decision to shoot when he shouldn't have, saw the deer of a lifetime and couldn't resist the temptation. I know lots of guys who shoot does and culls with .223 rifles. They are not targeting a specific deer and there are so many they really don't care about any one opportunity. Frankly, a kid is wanting their first deer or two and the, temptation to shoot is strong...add on the risk of turning them off of hunting if they do most everything right and wound and lose the deer, well, it isn't that hard to move up to a .243 or .25 caliber rifle IMO. Everything just works a little better then. as i said before, if it's an option, a suppressed .308 has little or no recoil, has much less muzzle blast, and will kill a deer from any angle, given proper bullet selection. | |||
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