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No, this place is simply a place for people to express their opinions/beliefs, nothing more, and everyone is entitled to their opinions/beliefs, whether anyone agrees with them or not. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Grumulkin--What bullet are you using in that .458? You go using an unethical Remington core Lokt it is a marginal cal at best. Ive seen too many rabbits get away for me to use one. Except for PH with 30 years experience they should not be used. | |||
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"Bullet placement trumps caliber" doesn't exclude "bigger is better". | |||
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I'm somewhat ashamed to admit it but it was a 350 grain Speer Hot Core. I should have used something from Barnes or maybe a Northfork. The only thing in my favor is that the case is fairly long, I used Federal 215M primers (the most expensive and best kind) and I used a lot of powder. | |||
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Bigger is better--wonder if their wives told them that? | |||
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Carpetman, you are becoming the master of the snarky reply. "Mighty fine autopsy work... .084" difference... Quite frankly, I have yet to see a .22 that out penetrates a .308 using conventional hunting ammo. My list of problems is pretty much half of all the new hunters (most not kids, but new hunters) I have seen using .22 center fires, and one relatively experienced guy. While a bigger gun doesn't equate to better shooting, it does equate to better penetration which is a big deal on what shot is OK and what is marginal, and if the shooter is not experienced, what is to say he's wrong on what is marginal? Snellstrom, each of my responses are in response to a question, asked or implied. If he feels a .223 is the answer to deer, fine. I don't. My feeling is that it's an experts weapon for cull shooting or someone who wants to reduce his odds. But while I am willing to freely admit that it can work, it isn't like there is no evidence that it may not. His denigration of presented evidence in the manner in which he does it is telling. His attitude has need of a little work here. | |||
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Crbutler---obtuse, snarky, borderline unethical---any more labels you can come up with? All of this because you don't think a .224 with a misplaced shot does the job, but bigger would. Change that think it would to Know it would. Psychic? Possibly, in hands of salty old experienced hunter, otherwise not. | |||
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Grumulkin--You might get by with that rig if you blow it out to an Ackley Improved, but it is marginally inadequate at best. | |||
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I stayed out of this but I have no problems with any young kid using the .223 in a controlled situation. I started my daughter with a .223 shooting 55 grain TSX bullets for deer, because she was recoil sensitive. I allowed her to use the .223 for two years successfully on white tail deer. She was hunting from a blind with a rest and shots were kept to less than 100 yards on her .223 kills. However, now that she's older and better shooter I'd have no problems letting her shoot deer with a .223 beyond 100 yards. Here she is at nine with her first .223 deer.  Here she is at 10 with her second .223 deer.  When she was 11 we moved her up to a .300 Savage with 125 grain NBT bullets. She wants to hunt elk and a .223 isn't legal in Colorado. However, she was ready to move up to a larger caliber and more recoil that she wasn't ready for before. Here she is at 11 finally able to fill her tag with all three allowed animals and her first buck.   | |||
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Taylorforce--Great pictures.( To get great pictures, you need great subject and you have that). The .223 would not have worked without the pink sling. | |||
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Good post and I believe if SOME people will actually READ it and THINK about what is being said, it will point out what many of us have been getting at! Points such as this: I have no problems with any young kid using the .223 in a controlled situation. And This: She was hunting from a blind with a rest and shots were kept to less than 100 yards on her .223 kills. And this: now that she's older and better shooter I'd have no problems letting her shoot deer with a .223 beyond 100 yards. Carpetman, last time on this subject, I PERSONALLY prefer something larger such as a .243 ( by the way which I have never owned one or will own one) or a .257 Robert's, which I do like and my wife owns one and shoots it pretty well. None of us have said that ANY of the various .224's Will Not Under Any Circumstance, kill deer or hogs. We are just saying we don't like it. I have personally seen deer, and I am talking about a 100 pound Texas whitetail doe shot and lost with a 7mm Rem Mag, and the outfitter I hunt elk with in western Colorado claims he has seen more elk shot and lost with a 7mm Rem Mag. Does that mean the 7mm Rem Mag won't kill an elk, No, it just means the shooter has to do their part and properly place their shot. I do0 not honestly believe that there is not a single hunter among us that does not have some form of prejudice against a certain caliber or type/brand of rifle/scope or bullet due to one or two "Bad" experiences using them. That is why even though I recommend the .243, I really don't like the .243 because of incidents I witnessed back in the early 70's with shots on whitetails made by folks I hunted with. Over the years, I realized the problem was with the choice of bullet the shooters were using, but it just turned me off of that particular caliber. This upcoming deer season will be my 46th. year hunting deer. I have killed whitetails with calibers ranging from .22 Hornet up to .458 Win Mag, some were good clean kills, some weren't and a few were lost. Thankfully not many were lost, but as with anything else a human does, sometimes things just do not work out as planned. As long as humans are humans, that will never change. The original question however concerned Personal Choices in regards to what each individual viewed/views as the Smallest caliber THEY would use or recommend for hunting deer. As I stated earlier not ALL whitetails are the same, there is a hell of a lot of difference between normal Texas whitetails, bucks and does, and whitetails in the Sandhills/Pine Ridge areas of Nebraska, and yes I have hunted successfully both of those areas in Nebraska. There is also a huge amount of difference, especially for a hunter that has mainly hunted whitetails in Texas, and the manner in which they are hunted here, and spot and stalk or jump shooting whitetails where ranges are not known and the Shoot/Don't Shoot window lasts a few seconds instead of several minutes watching a deer under a feeder and waiting for it to get at the right angle. I am a witness from about 100 kills, that a .224 can/does and will kill deer, graveyard dead, but that does not mean I am all that comfortable with it when I know I am going to have to try and find that animal, possibly in the dark if that shot is not dead on, and even with a tracking dog, if there is No Blood Trail, there is No Tracking. If anyone is comfortable using any of the various .224's on whitetails, by all means go for it. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I have not read much of this rather lengthy thread. If someone has already brought this up, I apologize. Honestly, it doesn't matter what she can shoot well if is it NOT legal. Some states have definite restrictions. Personally, I would go with a larger caliber (say 308) with reduced recoil rounds. I have seen girls shoot deer with these. They are devastating. | |||
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Larry Lots of states allow .223's. Check your regulations. | |||
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You just have to love people with Selective Reading Comprehension!
Two other things, it helps when copying someone else's comment, to do so in its entirety, and not leave out words. Second,
LOTS, does not mean ALL. Not counting the Kansas reference, not counting the Provincial reference, but 6 states actually specify .24 caliber or larger, and 3 specify .23 caliber and larger. Yes, the important deal is the individual state regulations, and that was what Mr. Shores was trying to point out, the Legal aspect. No one really cares what someone else shoots, as long as it is Legal and they are satisfied with the results. I get the same type reactions, just in reverse when I tell people I am using a .300 Weatherby or .375 H&H on Texas deer, "Hell You Don't Need Anything That Big, They Should Outlaw Anything Over A .243 or .30-30." Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Crazyhorse--It's fine someone doesn't like a .224. It's not fine when they say that someone that does is almost unethical and go on with yada yada about all them that are wounded and get away and only experts can do it premium bullets must be used. Then they describe an iffy shot and you can't take that with a .224, of course with their boomer it's no problem---never a need to pass a shot. I still say that a lot of this yada is from someone with no experience--except on their keyboard. | |||
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Perhaps I shouldn't tell this story but I will. I got off a lease I had been on for a long time last season. I sold my camp to another member who had no camp. That basically made the lease useless to me for the balance of the year. I went up to meet them. I was going to hunt on a Friday morning. When I got up, I realized that I had grabbed my 243 and not my 270. Both guns are identical, Pissed off at myself, I went back to bed. I woke up and realized that I had an AR under my backseat in my truck. In 223 I might add. Well, I jumped up and put on my clothes. I grabbed the AR, jumped in the Polaris and took off. I was late but climbed up in the stand, my favorite stand, for one last hunt. After a while some does showed up. I could tell something was up as they were acting funny. Then I heard a buck grunt behind me. I looked over my right shoulder . Big boy was coming. No need for binoculars. He was clearly a 10 pointer and equally clearly a shooter. Well, he stopped 10 yards from the base of my stand. I put the red dot on him and squeezed the trigger. Boom. Heck, I could see the bullet hit him in exactly the right place. I was 100% confident that I would find him dead in short order. I waited 45 minutes before I got down. I found blood. I was extremely confident. Well, as far as I know, that buck is still running around. I never found him. That is that last one I ever try with a 223. I have shot a hell of a lot of deer an other animals in my life. No incident has ever bothered me as much as this did. | |||
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larryshores, what bullet were you using in that particular instance in the .223? | |||
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I don't see Remington listing any Core-Lokt bullets in .224", though that doesn't mean they haven't in the past. Looking at Winchester, they make a clear distinction between their .224" 64-grain Power-Point and their 55-grain and under soft points; describes as: Pointed Soft Point bullets retain velocity over long ranges. The bullet's soft nose initiates rapid expansion. Jacket and core toughness vary according to caliber and weight of bullet That's why I am skeptical of bulk-pack small caliber bullets for large game. The component manufacturers have specific end uses in mind when designing their products, and it straying outside those limits with a life on the line is hard to justify. Finally, the need behind the need for the OP's question comes down to whether or not the young girl in question is capable of handling a caliber capable of reliably killing a deer within all laws of the state in which she will hunt. No one wants to hear that they or their own cannot/ should not do something. But sometimes the right thing to do is the hard thing to do, but it sets the best example for being a responsible hunter/person. I would be truly surprised if she is incapable of utilizing some stripe of 6mm cartridge. It sounds like she has had excellent instruction and experiences. And there are plenty of good 6mm options that can be fed with factory or handloads. | |||
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I am trying to remember. This was last November. It was a soft point of some sort. | |||
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All my kids and grandkids learned to shoot the 222 Rem. before we went hunting..They have all shot a number of deer with the 222 and 6x45. I have shot many deer with the 222, 22-250 and 223, as well as with the 6x45 therefore my answer to the mans question is I believe the 222 is a fine deer rifle, if you can shoot, the same for the 375 H&H. and I do believe that bullet construction and bullet placement is critical with any caliber, and bad placement need not happen, if it does as one poster stated, then he should practice considerably more and if you can screw up a shot with a 22, then your more likely to do the same with a bigger caliber!!....to say otherwise is pure bull hockey.. The only disadvantage with small calibers is hunting skill, and range, you do have to pass on some big bucks that are just out of range and you have to limit the range, you must discipline yourself to your ability..I use the 60 gr. HOrnday SP or HP exclusively in 22 calibers. I don't like the premium bullets in the small calibers, they make little mushrooms, but do the needed damage in some cases IMO. I never shoot past 200 yards and 99% of the time I shoot at under 100 yards with small calibers, I also limit my iron sights to under 200 yards. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I see nothing wrong with your statement. Although neither you nor I, has any factual knowledge as to the amount of experience ANYONE else has or has had and that includes both of us. You do not have any REAL idea to the level of my experiences, nor I of yours. The point remains, in the OP the poster merely asked two things: 1. What is your PERSONAL idea/choice or are COMFORTABLE with, of the Smallest caliber for hunting whitetails. 2. Don't turn in it into a Bash/Trash/Praise the various .224 chamberings. The first part started out pretty good, but the second part can not simply be left at you use what you are comfortable with and I will use what I am comfortable with. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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35Whelanman---I have been using these borderline unethical bullets that you are skeptical of and consider in poor taste since before my grandson was born. He now has twin sons of his own that are almost big enough to start hunting. My best guess was that I started using them about 1985. This was in both 22 cals and in .243. I reload for my son in law and for many years he hunted with .243, I hunt with .243. All the nephews and great nephews have used either .222 or .223, except one that my nephew shot with .243. I mentioned we have recovered two bullets--the rest passed through. Something that surprised me about the two we recovered were on smaller deer shot at closer than usual range. Don't know, maybe impact velocity being higher made em open sooner? We hunt on land owned by my son in law so we have it available all time. The season here is long (no we don't hunt out of season--that would be unethical). Early part of the season is usually hot, so I forego that. I don't fill all my tags as I don't want that many deer. We have not lost a deer using those bullets. All but a couple went down pretty much right where they stood. These are the reasons I feel very confident using them. Maybe I'm driving nails with a wrench, but dead is dead. Perhaps you will explain why you are skeptical, consider it in poor taste and borderline unethical, what is the basis of your insulting remarks? | |||
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That list isn't current any longer that's been posted. Wyoming since I think 2013 has allowed the use of .22 caliber centerfire cartridges for the taking of some big game species. Here is how the regulation reads now.
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Well even with the change in Wyoming, the point remains the same. Eight states require .23 caliber or larger, so that means .224's are not legal in ALL states. Mr. Shores clearly stated "IF it is not legal, it does not matter", and that is a fact. And as you stated in your post, when your daughter started, she was shooting in a very controlled situation, and as with many parents, as her skills/ability and confidence grew, your confidence grew in her abilities. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I did not change his words I copied it in absolute. He has gone back and changed/ edited it. Who are you anyway the freakin internet police for this topic? Don't accuse me of selectively quoting people that would be dis honest and I am not going to lie to prove my point. | |||
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I started shooting deer with a 22/250 when I was 15, I am now 55. I was unsupervised and killing deer in an uncontrolled environment, stalking, glassing still hunting in the hills meadows and clear cuts of western Oregon. Shots ranged from 50 yards to 250 maybe 300 I had no rangefinder in those days. I took primarily heart/ lung shots with a few head shots and a few neck shots, I killed dozens of deer. As many as I can remember dropped at the shot or humped up unable to make more than a step or two tops before they tipped over. I never missed one and never lost one. I used 50 and 55 grain varmint bullets mostly, then I tried 60 and 70 grain Hornadys and Speers hoping for more penetration so that I may start to take some raking shots but was not as impressed, I found that 50 and 55 grain bullets were an absolute killer so I stayed with them. Load was 38 grains of H380. Years later I started loading 52 and 53 grain TSX Barnes bullets and killed deer and Antelope fantastically with those bullets and always an exit wound no matter what angle. A friend of mine started his boy with a .223 on whitetails and I loaded up 52 or 53 grain TSX's for him and he had similar results, no misses, no lost deer and the kid killed more than a dozen deer with that load. Then I started my boy out on a feral sheep and a hog hunt with same results. If any decent shot is taken .224 diameter bullets kill deer. If you want to "up" the penetration use a Barnes bullet and you will get 20" plus penetration. All the stories I hear about lack of penetration and lost animals can be nothing but a misplaced shot, I've seen first hand a pile of deer die from decent shots and "inadequate" bullets with NO real difficulty. That has been my experience with .224 bullets and Deer that is why I see no problem having anyone (kids ladies adults) use a .223 on deer, it just plain works. If you don't like my results well I apologize for offending but I will say this if you want to use a 300 FlinchMag and think that you can ass shoot and gut shoot deer and the extra bullet diameter will make it alright then you will have a rude awakening some day because poor shooting can not be compensated for with a bigger bullet. | |||
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Snellstrom--You used varmint bullets? How unethical. Other than that you have posted a pretty good amount of experience with highly favorable results I'd say except no cape buffalo. Yip, you need a cape in the mix to really impress us. | |||
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I ain't trying to police anything, just reminding folks the intent of the original post. Show me where I said the various .224's never have killed deer and never will? You can't because I haven't, I have merely stated that I personally am not comfortable using them, which was the whole premise of the OP, "What is the smallest caliber You feel comfortable using"! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Larryshores--What went wrong with your .223 shot deer would be interesting to know. At first I thought maybe shooting down from a stand your shot went high, but you said you saw it hit. My wag (wild ass guess) would be the angle had something to do with it. Would a bigger gun had same results? Who knows? No deer for an autopsy you can't say it was the cal. Purely be speculation. | |||
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Always kept decent notes on shots, so looked up distance traveled for those few we took with the .22-250 decades ago. Avg = 40 yds (Maine deer), exactly what the SC DNR found in regards to the .243. Their corresponding figure for .308 diam was 33 yds, and mine is 22 yds (Maine, CT, NYS) using .300s and '06. You can surely kill whitetails with .22 CFs. I can't understand why they would be a poor choice for a recoil-sensitive individual, including properly supervised kids. Raking shots, no. But isn't shot selection part of our job as mentors? Blood trail is not likely. But isn't it also our job to pick appropriate locations to minimize the chance of loss in the event of a longer death sprint? I can't buy arguments for .22 CFs as general purpose/all conditions deer cartridges, except for those who a) avoid thick cover, b) never need to take a shot from a tough target angle, and c) can usually bank on watching animals go down. Friend in NYS did exactly this, and killed a heckuva lot of management deer with his Swift and the old style 52 gr Speer HPs. He would deride my .300s, and I would remind him about conditions a, b, and c. Ray's observations on small bore diameters with controlled expansion bullets make sense. I wish he'd write a book - I'd buy it. | |||
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I agree . The shot was where it was supposed to be. If the shot had been with my 270 for example, I have no doubt the deer would be dead. We even had a trail dog. The problem was too many deer in there. My personal opinion is that it did not penetrate far enough. Perhaps it even broke up. Like you, that is a SWAG. Scientific wild assed guess. Given the shot placement, had it penetrated, the vitals should have been hit. Not a good day. | |||
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That is a condition some folks have never dealt with, i have and know others that have and it is frustrating to say the least. For me, it is really a simple concept, and again, this is my preference in a caliber for hunting deer. I want a bullet that is going to be tough enough and have enough retained energy that even on a marginal shot, is going to create a nickle to 50 cent piece size exit wound so there will be a blood trail to follow if necessary. Preferably, I am going to do MY part at the shot by placing it properly and the deer will either drop on the spot or make it no more than ten yards before going down, but even then, I want blood going out an exit wound, and I want an exit wound large enough that the skin or underlying muscle can not close or cover up the hole. One thing that has not been mentioned in this little cluster fuck, is choice of ammo. Folks on here are knowledgeable people concerning ammunition, ballistics, proper bullet selection, bullet performance etc. The flies in the ointment, are those Nimrods that buy military surplus .223 ammo or whatever is CHEAPEST and go out and shoot deer with less than stellar results. Those folks don't really know much more than which way to point the gun when they pull the trigger. As I have related on here in previous discussions, what turned me off the .243 was the people I was hunting with back in the early 70's, really got a rush shooting does with head shots using that period of time's 75 grain varmint bullets, a dead on head shot or a shot just below where the neck and head connected, and the results were in a word spectacular, if you enjoyed seeing an animals head explode, or hanging by a small flap of skin with the neck shot, no tracking involved. Move that shot down on to the center of the shoulder, especially on a buck and you ended up with a grapefruit sized crater blown out, no penetration into the chest cavity, and hoping you can get two or three more shots into the critter before it hits heavy brush. What I always find strange about all these discussions concerning using the various .224's on deer, and I feel that I am not the only one that has noticed this, is that when the discussion turns from shooting Does, to hunting bucks, possibly trophy bucks, the .224's get shoved back in the closet. Some have stated that they would take a shot on a good buck, If That Was What They Were Carrying At The Time And The Shot Looked Doable, BUT, they prefer something a little larger if the opportunity for a good book is a real possibility. The concept is, a badly placed shot with the biggest caliber available and best bullet available is still a bad shot. A well placed shot regardless of the caliber will result in a good clean kill, the unknown part of the equation in many cases is the maximum working window for a particular caliber. Shot angle/distance/size of target, that last may sound odd, because too many folks believe a deer is a deer is a deer, but a whitetail doe in Texas is one thing, a white tail doe in the Nebraska Sandhills that can or will weigh 150 pounds plus, Field Dressed, is a whole different critter. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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After killing well over 100 deer since 1971, I've found that putting the proper bullet in the proper place will kill any deer, anywhere in North America. They are not very hard to kill. That being said, I personally will not use anything below a .243 because I do not do much blind sitting/shooting. I've also found that marginal shots, even with super duper magnums and good bullets do a marginal job of killing deer. | |||
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My SWAG on this scenario would be that at 10 yds, you used the wrong bullet (not a personal attack, just an observation). | |||
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You may well be right. The ammo was bought for personal protection not hunting. The more I think about it, I think it was Winchester ammo. | |||
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By golly JGRaider has it. Ammo will ONLY work for what it was designed for. Personal protection ammo would not work at all on a deer unless the deer was climbing your stand to attack you. In that case it would have been lights out. | |||
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Yup, At 10 yards, bullet was likely doing over 3000 fps and blew up in the skin and superficial muscle. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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For future reference, the proper term is SWAG! Scientific Wild Assed Guess. That makes things more understandable. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Over the past 20+ years I have shot deer with the following bullets in .224" diameter. Some out of a .223, the vast majority from a 1-14" twist .22-250. Handlods: 55gr Hornday Sp with Cannalure 60gr Nosler Partition 60gr Hornady SP 64gr Winchester PP Factory loads: 55gr Remington PSP 55gr Winshester SP 55gr Federal Fusion 62gr Federal Fusion I don't know how many deer and pigs make up the body count, well into the double digits, but I can tell you I have no doubt of the efficacy of .22 centerfires. My favorite of the bunch is the 60gr Hornday SP. I'm very happy with the tissue damage, penetration, weight retention, and accuracy I get with it. Longest shot to date with it is 315yrds, dead center of the spine on a large six point buck. Bullet passed through the top of the onside shoulder paddle, completely severed the spine, and stopped just under the hide on the far side. I do not recall the retained weight, but it did look like a text book mushroomed bullet. Out of a 26" barrel the average muzzle velocity was 3650fps. I am also very impressed with the Federal fusion loads. The 62gr 223 loading is responsible for my largest hog to date, a 350lbs + boar hog shot through the top pf the paddle on the onside shoulder. Severed the spine, passed through the farside shoulder and was found just under the hide. 16" AR, unknown velocity, distance about 75yrds at night. I was very happy that hog died where he stood as it was much easier to load him with his feet in the tire tracks of a dirt road. | |||
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