quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
I got out my Siebert Bore Inspection Tool and gave this Swift a thorough chamber, leads and rifling inspection. I was impressed with its newness (or freshness) of the barrel and I began to deal! I got the 99% condition Varminter for $450.00. I danced out of that store!

Where you going to get that next scope?

If only the 204 and the 220 could stop irresponable journalism .

Don't worry boys the old Swift is used to people knocking it around and it's been going on since the mid 30's.We'll have to wait and see if this new kid (204)lives up to the hype.As far as ruined fur with the Swift try using the proper bullet.

VG,

For starters, you don't call someone 'mate' unless you actually know them...

No, I haven't 'lost' - I've simply got better things to do than respond to your rants... they're boring in the extreme.

If you feel that you've 'won' - good for you...

VarmintGuy, I'll have to give it up to you on your last post except the part of flaming ol' rugeruser at the first. Your post had some good information and good luck with the VSSF, I had one in 22-250 and they are good rifles.
I don't think this is a subject that can be won or lost due to the fact the opinions are just thoughts and no factual data can be gathered from thoughts! my place of work wastes much time with meetings trying to gather some data from thoughts and opinions other than just doing what they know is right from the first, if there is a problem fix it but in this post there is no problem less the namecalling. Later folks.

Kirk

Gophershooter: Contrary to petty prick #2 (17 Remingtons) comments above, I do not work at Ruger/Hornady. I use the Remington 17 HMR ammo in both my 17 HMR's.
I am happy its shooting so well for you!
Yeah I am busy even as we speak loading ammo for my 204's! The Ground squirrels should be out IN FORCE in a week or two! The the Prairie Dogs then the Rcok Chucks - oh does the fun never end with ones 204's?
Long live the 17 HMR and the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGu

Johnny Johnson: I have been "robbing" scopes again!
I actually have ONE scope laying on my work bench being unused at the time! Its a Weaver KT-15 (straight 15 power target type scope).
I hear its raining out Seattle way!
I have some intell that just came in and its regarding Ground Squirrels being out en masse in Oregon and Nevada!!!
I can't wait!
See you in a month or so!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Ksmirk: Thanks but no thanks!
I still contend - and no one has proven me wrong - that cummins cowboys contentions in his original post are factual (correct)!
I told you what part of my contentions were factual and which were OPINION - BASED ON EXTENSIVE FIRST HAND, AT THE RANGE AND IN THE FIELD EXPERIENCES! I still firmly believe both the facts regarding the 204 vs 220 debate and my opinions based on EXTENSIVE first hand experience!
Disregard my contentions if you insist but its to your own detriment if you do!

Deathwind: If you are mistakenly including me in the band of folks that have been "knocking around" the 220 Swift then re-read my posts and take note of the latest Rifle I got a good deal on and am so pleased with!
Do not take the "pleasure" I have in my Swifts, in any way, to cede any of the 204 Rugers superior accuracy and ballistic attributes to the Swift!
The Swift was invented 15 years before I was born and if I live to and average age I am sure it will be around 15 years after I am gone! Though by then I am sure the percentage of 204 Ruger naysayers will have dropped from 4% of the shooting public (as it stands now!) to less than 1%!
Long live the wonderful 204 Ruger!

Rugeruser: Apparently you missed the implication when I referrd to you as "mate", mate! I meant it to be derogatory and disrespectful!
So mate when you fully answer the questions I posted of you quite some time back I will continue to show you the type of respect a closed minded, biased, petty prick deserves!
Bugger off mate!
Long live the wonderful, new efficient and accurate 204 Ruger!
Now back to some reloading - and in the spirit of full disclosure I am in the midst of loading 15 rounds of 220 Swift ammo and several HUNDRED 204 Ruger rounds!

Is it fall in Australia?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Uh VGirl... there's been quite a few postings in this thread alone indicating a great deal of scorn, ridicule, derision, mockery and general overall disrespect directly at you. Of which, many of these posts, you've not yet replied to in-kind.

I just wanted to point this out for your attention, so that you don't let all of these scoundrels off so easy.

Varmintguy i was making a general statement since the title says 204 beats the Swift.I'am sure both are good rifles but i'am getting sick and tired of people knocking the Swift.Why does everyone compare the other varmint calibers to the Swift (yes your right because it's a damn good caliber).It's good for the Swift to be the benchmark everyone wants to beat.

VG,

No, I didn't miss the implied derision - I've come to expect it from you....

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine, which were expressed in good faith, and totally ignored by you - along with virtually all other questions raised by other posters on this thread.

If you feel you've 'won', I'm pleased for you.

Onya 'mate'...

Such a thread. I'm sure the .204 is dandy, and I might even possibly buy one. The low recoil is a draw, as is the small charge. But sighted at 250 yards, my 257AI with 85gr NPTs drops two inches more than the 204 at 500 yards, but drifts 12 inches less in a 10mph breeze. If you're actually trying to hit something way out there, that's a significant difference.

Ya know if we would all quit posting on this thread it might die and varmit guy would have noone else to argue with. I personally an tired of seeing this over opioionated thread about preferences without alot of real facts to back it up. i am actually getting turned off to the 204 just because i see the kind of people it attracts. Cmon folks lets let this die already., He wont listen to reason anyway.

I think it's been quite interesting, as with Fireform's post just above. Pity about the name calling though.

quote:

Originally posted by Fireform:
Such a thread. I'm sure the .204 is dandy, and I might even possibly buy one. The low recoil is a draw, as is the small charge. But sighted at 250 yards, my 257AI with 85gr NPTs drops two inches more than the 204 at 500 yards, but drifts 12 inches less in a 10mph breeze. If you're actually trying to hit something way out there, that's a significant difference.

My ballistic calculator shows only a 1.5 inch difference in favor of such a .257 load versus a 39 gr Sierra in a .204 .

From shooting a 25/06 for years , plus actually using a .204 under windy conditions , I'd say there is very little practical difference in wind drift at normal varmint ranges and comparing the usual .25 caliber bullets used for varmint shooting .

I can see that since a new page has turned my questions to VG seem to have been forgotten about so I'll post them again so he can answer them,

Ok VarmintGuy since your so full of factual information maybe you can answer some of the following questions for me,

1st When did I become a 204 naysayer and where is the post to prove it?

2nd Nothing against Mr. Boddington but I'm pretty well sure I'm not going to talk baddly about the person that pays to advertise on my show, it may be a good group but how many times did it take to get there?

3rd If what you call experience I say attitude you must be a real hoot to be around, can you post something without negativity or name calling and just get to your facts?

4th When did I become a petty prick? I say if you got the pictures post em' if you can't figure it out Hipster made you an offer to help you out, why don't you ask for help with those pictures? if you can e-mail them to me you can post them on this site! I don't doubt anyone about there shooting, it's like drag racing someones gonna beat you eventually.

Now see if you can answer these questions without going off in left field or pulling something out of thin air, you speak of your facts and experience lets see if you can answer the questions above? remember no BS fluff to make the post so long as to nobody wanting to read it just answer the questions and please show the proof of where I mentioned the statements you accuse me of please.

Kirk

Just a question. What do you want to happen when you are varminting?

Kill the varmint? Or vaporize the varmint?

220Swift kills it
204Ruger kills it

220Swift vaporizes it
243winch vaporizes it

-The 204 ruger shoots a 32 grain bullet at 4200fps
-The 220 Swift shoots a 40 grain bullet at 4300fps(??)

Both are killers.. 8grains and 1-200fps dont make a different.
NO recoil, less powder, more shooting DOES.

243 winchester shoots 55grain bullets at 4050 fps and scatters the little varmints

220 Swift also does it, with heavier bullets. Its really no point shooting 40 grain bullets in such a big cartridge.

The 243 has 5 grains more water.. so, the 243 vaporizes as much as the swift, but can use heavier bullet.. a 115 VLD at 3150 has less drift and drop then a 6.5-284 and you only use a few grains more than a 220 swift.


Some pepole dont seem to understand that this is based on numbers.. feelings say something else. If one wants to belive that the 220 Swift is better, well, in their mind it is. Its not on paper..

I for one would want to watch the spectacal unfold as I clobber the pesky little varmint 400 yards away. Somebody else, likes to have the spotter have all the fun.

Ksmirk,

good post!

Like you, I have yet to receive a coherent reply to my questions... and we all know why...

VarmintGuy --

Why don't you simply post some pics of your groups...... If you don't have a digital camera you can use scanner and simply scan them into you computer. I'm sure you've got a buddy you can borrow a digital camera from for a few hours. Failing this, you can go to a print shop and have the pics scanned onto a disk for a buck or two.

That way we can all see what kind of groups you can really shoot at 2-3-4-500yrds.

It seem strange to me that everyone, including you talks a good story, drift, bullet drop, retained energy, etc. but I haven't seen a post from you showing how well you can shoot to really hit something at those distances. A few inches here or there doesn't mean much, if you can't put a group together. And It really seems like it time to put up or ..............

I saw some pretty good groups in the first part of this post, but nothing since. And don't go telling me that you can't post a picture, because I just told you how to do it. If you have trouble posting the pics, my self or any number of people would be more than happy to show you how.

So how about less talk about drift, drop, energy and more pics of groups to show us all how you can actually hit anything at distance with a wind blowing, at say 10-20mph, pretty standard here in the west deserts and I'm sure in your neck of the woods also.....

It's great to talk about a little tiny fast piece of copper doing something, it's another seeing if you can really do it......

OK

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
I do not work at Ruger/Hornady. I use the Remington 17 HMR ammo in both my 17 HMR's.
Long live the 17 HMR and the 204 Ruger!

LMAO.....
You don't need to work for them,
they already got ya right where they want ya.
in a bent ove...oh well, never mind.
Good sheep,Bhaaa,bwhhaaa.

AI22-250: Show me where I have ever quoted a group - like you attribute to me, from "200, 300, 400 and 500 yards"!
My favorite range has two distances available 100 yards and 1,003 yards!
Needless to say I never use the 1,003 yard range with my arsenal of Varmint Rifles as my self imposed limit for shooting at Varmints is 600 yards.
My accuracy testing and the results I obtain are from 100 yards ONLY! Where you get any other idea is YOUR problem!
You solve it!
Me thinks you are letting your mind wander off to places you WISH were real!
So how about correcting yourself there AI22-250
and try keeping your RAMPANT imagination in check!
If you have ballistic information contrary to any shown here - cite it!
Til then pay a little bit closer attention to reality!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

204 Ruger superior to 220 Swift - reason #33!
Barrel wear.
Yep I now have enough rounds through one of my 204's to side with those that maintain the 204 Ruger has less barrel wear and throat erosion than the 220 Swift!
Indeed one of the stated reasons the 204 Ruger was designed was to have a ballistically superior cartidge (flatter shooting!) to the Swift (or any other factory cartridge!) and yet have a VERY efficient cartridge one that would yield this ballistic superiority yet use 32% less powder (26.0 grs for the 204 vs. 38.0 grs. for the Swift!). It doesn't take much imagination to visualize this significantly smaller volume of hot gas with the 204 being more "barrel friendly" than the Swifts larger volume of gas!
1/3 less powder (gases!) flaming the throat of ones Rifle at every shot WILL soon become evident in barrel wear! Whether you are a 204 Ruger naysayer or not you can not dispute the laws of interior ballistics and physics!
I have talked with several Riflesmiths in the last couple of years regarding the barrel life issue of the 204 Ruger.
I have as yet to find one that feels that Rifles in 204 Ruger will succumb to as quick a barrel death as with the Swift.
Hmmm... no one has yet come up with any reasons to buy a Swift over a 204 Ruger when considering a new small caliber Rifle Varmint or small game Rifle!
Hmmm....
Long live the wonderful and efficient 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Of course not....the .223 WSSM is superior to both the .204 and the Swift. Shoot a 64 grain bullet through the .204 and tell me how great it is.

Ray: a 22-06 would be even better, but you burn to much powder to make any sence..

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:

My accuracy testing and the results I obtain are from 100 yards ONLY!

OK, so now we're starting to get down to some facts... you shoot a small group at 100yds, and then use theoretical data to extrapolate that to theoretical groups at longer ranges against theoretical varmints.

Might work OK in a vacuum, or in very stable conditions... real life? Doubt it...

Lots of guys like you at any range - able to quote stats and figures, but absolutely hopless when it comes to actually hunting...

This last post from a guy(rugeruser) that is living in a city of millions of people . Meanwhile , varmintguy is out in SW Montana , probably whacking critters every day with the coming of spring .

If anyone wants to take bets on shots fired at living creatures this year , rugeruser versus varmintguy , my money is on varmintguy all the way .

And what's the big hangup on groups , or even pictures of groups ? After you got a good shooting load established , more group shooting is just a waste of powder and lead , and good rifle barrels . You could save those shots for some actual varmints......pictures ? What does that prove ? If you don't take the man's word for his groups , pictures don't prove anything more , hell it could be a picture of a group at 50 feet .

sd,

Don't patronise me...

I'm 'based' in Sydney... only spend a few weeks a year there...

Been hunting and loading for 40+ years, and still do it on properties where 150,000 acres is considered small... also in mountain country where long shots across valleys are the 'norm'...

One thing us Aussies have is a very sensitive BullShit detector....

Ask anyone who's ever dealt with is...

I have yet to see any answers to my simple questions? are the answers not out there or is it just I'm being ignored? Later,

Kirk

Rugeruser: Hope all is well down under for you upside down folks!
I began reloading for Rifles at a precocious AND self taught 13 years of age! I do not recommend this!
The was 46 years ago.
And yes, Sdgunslinger is right - I Hunt Varmints and Big Game year round with my Rifles!
Yes, you are easy to ignore!
I have been on several Varmint Safaris in the last month alone. When this snow melts and the ground dries I will immediately be in the field, Hunting.
I have made my unbiased (and based on decades of experience with the 220 Swift) contentions public regarding accuracy obtained with quite a number of Swifts I have owned in the past and own now!
In comparing these experiences and the experiences of MANY friends that I have seen shoot their Swifts, its a no brainer!
The 204 Ruger is not only ballistically supperior it is more accurate in comparably equipped Rifles.
Fact of life here 204 Ruger naysayers - live with it or don't! Its your choice.
If any of you 204 Ruger naysayers have differing data regarding the 204 Ruger NOT being as accurate as your 220 Swifts - then post it!
Don't hide behind your sisters skirts and throw flaming arrows.
Check your own sack!
Post YOUR contentions!
No need to post the decades worth of target images you have on your discs! Just tell me (in English!) and I will add that to my vast log of information in this regard! It will take a mountain of YOUR evidence AND a complete turnabout (is that an Australian term?) in the performance of my three 204 Rifles to change my mind! So get started - if you have evidence my contention is wrong - I am waiting to see it!
By the way I will be shooting (in the next few weeks) my newest Swift (again) and I will be needing to resight in two of my 204's as I am switching from using Hornady brass in them to Winchester brass in one and Remington brass in the other. I am going to leave my first 204 alone with the Hornady brass to be used in that Rifle!
Be prepared, oh 204 Ruger naysayers, for MORE real life in the field and at the range side by side experiences to come your way!
Long live the wonderful, efficient, barrel friendly, low recoiling, ballistically superior and accurate 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy, such a lovely post and no answers to your allegations toward me! this is a simple English speaking guy waiting on someone to answer questions of alegations toward me and you seem to not be able to do it, why?

I am a firm beliver that there is no one round that is best for everyone! it does not matter what flavor the round is, if it were this way we would not have the vast array of rounds out there as we do! now while there may be some paper out there that says it's so fine! there are other rounds out there that are better than others everyday but who really cares? I shoot a 308 with some of my buddies out to 1000 yards during some get togethers we have but hey I'm sure a 6.5x284 or a 300 Win Mag would work better but why? can we say the 300 Win Mag is ballistically superior to the 308? Hell yes it is but who cares?

So back to the original point, can you answer my questions I have posted on page 10 and reposted on page 11?

Kirk

And he said to me he said, "What is it you use that .204 thing for?"

I think any "inherent accuracy" the 204 has over the Swift is more likely due to all new tooling than anything "inherent" about either the case or the caliber.

So it seems a few old coots argueing here and I may be the oldest. I think at about 4 years I was loading my corks in my Popgun. I think one was even a Double barrel?. I found I could increase my range and effect on flys by removing the string attatched to the corks.
That would have been about 1947.

At 62, as long as I have a good cal. in a good rifle, I don't need the "Best". Good is good enough. Cripes there is always something out of range.

I am now the proud owner of a Savage Model 12 Varminter Low Profile in you guessed it.........204 Ruger. Now If I can just decide on a scope.

I've been following this string for some time now and it sounds like we aren't really getting anywhere. It's sorta loke the difference between a 270 and a 30-06. We can discuss which shoots flatter, FPS, FT-pounds all day long. But the game we are shooting at cannot appreciate the minor differences between the two calibers. I prefer a 30-06, HOWEVER, I would be perfectly content with a 270. I've seen deer shot with both. The deer pretty much react the same way when shot with either, and the damage the the different calibers produce is about the same also. It comes down to personal preference of calibers.

Stoots, anyone with half a brain knows that...

But it's so much fun winding VarmintGuy up...

Ruger I think what your saying is "sit back and enjoy the show." Since im a noobie, I'll refain from winding him up too much. But, it has been a great show

tony

quote:

Originally posted by stoots:
Ruger I think what your saying is "sit back and enjoy the show." Since im a noobie, I'll refain from winding him up too much. But, it has been a great show

tony

Stoots, I facilitate workshops in 'critical thinking' for high level management groups... because of my reputation, I have many people asking if they can 'sit in and observe' how I achieve my results... my answer? "You're welcome to 'sit in', however, I never allow observers, only participants."

Don't sit back and 'watch', join in and have some fun!!

Hey Ksmirk, not much use in asking VarmintGuy to answer questions for without doubt, he will only start with his endless "clever" remarks which have no connection whatsoever to facts, but at least he can vent his pent up emotions. VarmintGuy is a lot like wiping your ass with a hoop, no end to it. I asked him the most basic question on precision shooting and he claims that the test was made up and not fair???? No, question is not made up, but his responses are definitely made up. Just a suggestion, but kind of wasting ones time and energy to even recognize VarmintGuy. He does not want to be confused with the facts.

Driver, Yes I know that I will more than likely not get any answers to the questions about his allegations toward me but hey if he likes to spit out facts let him prove some of what he has said about me! that will tell us if he is worth beliving or not. You gotta be able to back up your statements in this world and if you can't then just shut-up cause sometimes you'll get called on what you say. Later,

Kirk