If you like accuracy and the best terminal performance out there you might want to try these bullets.

http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/pages/news
We have been in the development and testing phase of the newest addition to the Cutting Edge Bullet Line. We are adding an "ESP" RAPTOR line of bullets that are absolutely the finest bullet ever made by anyone in the world. The Enhanced System Projectile, ESP, is a complete system bullet and incorporates a double ended BBW#13 nose profile on each end of the bullet. One end is a solid that when loaded in a cartridge with it sticking out provides extremely deep penetration that can be used on animals where the absolute deepest penetration is desired. The other end is our hollow point design used in our dangerous game brass bullets that provides absolutely the best terminal performance you have ever seen along with penetration greater than any conventional jacketed bullet available. To top it all off there is an add on tip that will be supplied that increases the BC by 2 to 3 times over the flat nose BBW#13 nose profile. These bullets are truely on the cutting edge and are so easy to develop a load for you will be amazed. Handloaders will be able to pick a speed they want to shoot a bullet at, pick a powder that provides that speed, load the bullet with one band sticking out of the case and shoot a group at 100 yards almost guaranteed to be under 1" on the first load. Often times with a good scope the first group will be under 1/2". I know it sounds to good to be true but every rifle we have shot them out of has produced these results. They may not be the prettiest bullets you have ever seen but I guarantee they will be the most accurate, most devestating bullet you have ever shot. The picture below is what the system looks like.



The ESP line of bullets will be available in calibers from .375 down to .223. All will come 50pcs to a box with 25 tips supplied for the individuals that shoot long distance to 600 yards. Regardless whether you load them as a solid, hollow point, or tipped hollow point, the point of impact at 100 yards is within 1" or less. Tips are to be installed by the handloader which are easily snapped in on a as required basis. These incredible bullets in most calibers will be available by the beginning of November and interested people should call to see when their caliber is scheduled for completion.

Whatver....

OK for really big game but how much do I really need to spend on a bullet to kill a deer?

What I really want (since posted in the small bore forum) more than that bullet is a 70-80 grain flat base bulelt around .90-1" long that I can run in my 6X47 Rem 1:12 twist. This bullet needs to be tougher than a varmint bullet and have reliable expansion from 2000-3000+ fps. I'd be willing to spend about $1 a bullet to make my rifle a more effective killer of pronghorn and deer.

I'll leave the solids for big bore DGR rifles. That bullet does look like it woudld make one heck of a HP deer slayer in a .30-30. Besides that is about the ugliest bullet I've ever seen I like everything to look more sleek plus they should add an equal amount of ballist tips as bullets.

quote:

OK for really big game but how much do I really need to spend on a bullet to kill a deer?
Regards, Scott

Okay.. honest question asked !

Depends on how much you want to spend .. ?

Lets take a good look @ whats available for " Hunting Big Game " (Deer).

COST: 0
You could build all of below & with a bit of practice,..Its be done, by someone , somewhere in time !

SLING with freeeee Ammo


Spears/Atlatl


Bows & Arrows

(My personal inventory of Toys)


OR
You could spend ; approx .08 cents

Auguila 60 grain ,22 cal Bullets : Approx $ 40.00 per brick 500 (My personal inventory of Ammo & Toys)

“If you are only asking if it might * kill a bear I can point out two guys with 22LR's that were successful * . That certainly doesn't mean it would be my weapon of choice, however…7Xpress “ Alaska Forum:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...8521043/m/6311005461

So,.. bottom line cost! You really don't need anything more than a .22 cal Rimfire


Or
You could spend a few more bucks on the “ Best Bullets “ currently made !

Cutting Edge ESP RAPTOR

All of the above have/has already been well documented... No If's, And's , or But's

I'm always amused by guys that spend thousands, on " Hunting Gear ; Riflessss (How many guns does anyone really need?), Equipt ",along with another hundred bucks (more $$?) on “ License / Tags / Mounts / Gas ( $4.00 Gallon ?)

However, they seem to find a complaint , with spending “ one or two bucks ", ..for Premium Bullets

Just my two bucks on the subject !

PAPI

Or I could just get 50 of these for about the same price as one of yours:

http://www.shootersproshop.com...ry-2nds__BT3365.aspx

If I were experiencing ANY problem with cheaper bullets, I'd eagerly jump on paying more for PREMIUM bullets. I'm not, it ain't broke, so I'm not going to fix it.

Again,, all anyone really needs is a " .22 cal Rimfire " !

Why try to justify, spending anything more.. if cost is the major consideration ????

PAPI

The raptor will kill faster due to 7 projectiles leaving a massive wound channel. Not just a deer bullet. You are correct, you can use a 10 cent bullet to kill a deer. This is not a 10 cent bullet nor does it act like one nor is it made like one. These will not be for everyone but for some. They are deadly and accurate and you might like them if you shot them. That's all. Choice is a good thing

quote:

Originally posted by PAPI:
[QUOTE]
I'm always amused by guys that spend thousands, on " Hunting Gear ; Riflessss (How many guns does anyone really need?), Equipt ",along with another hundred bucks (more $$?) on “ License / Tags / Mounts / Gas ( $4.00 Gallon ?)

However, they seem to find a complaint , with spending “ one or two bucks ", ..for Premium Bullets

Just my two bucks on the subject !

PAPI

You can roll your eyes all you want but if I could get gas for $1 a gallon why would I pay $4? And the you are claiming they are the greatest big game bullet available. Are they even available? How long have they been on the market? What is their track record? Some of these bullets you are talking about aren't even available to public yet. I guess if it's new and expensive, It must be the best new thing.

Old CNC bullets work just fine for deer. Just my opinion.

Cost of bullets always makes people look for something cheaper to shoot. I'm one of the worst for this. I have thousnads of cheap bullets sitting in my gun room. When I go hunting I have the best bullet I can buy and I don't care if they cost $20 each. Not everybody is shooting a $25000 elephant or $10000 buffalo but even on a deer in your back yard wouldn't you want the best most effective bullet you can get. Sure I've killed deer with 22LRs but that's what was in my hands at the time. Shot placement is the most important thing and if everyone shot perfectly every time we would only need a 22. However on the shot at the trophy of a lifetime on the hunt you have waiting years for wouldn't you like a bullet that if you made a bad shot gave you the best chance for killing the animal.
Just my 2 cents worth.

PS I'm not saying the Raptor is the best bullet out there but it is interesting and I will be testing it on game soon. I will say the the Non con type of bullet has been very effective so far on game and can not fail, meaning it will always penetrate and can't blow up like thin jacketed bullets.

Sam

Yes better bullets increase the size of the kill zone---turn a bad shot into a great one. You get those same results using a magnum too--hit em anywhere and they drop dead right there. Now imagine putting those two together--don't even have to hit em when you use a Magnum and a Premium --skins and guts em too. I shoot bulls costing over $100,000 that weigh over 6000 pounds with cheap bullets and that's a lot of bull too.

quote:

You can roll your eyes all you want but if I could get gas for $1 a gallon why would I pay $4? And the you are claiming they are the greatest big game bullet available. Are they even available? How long have they been on the market? What is their track record? Some of these bullets you are talking about aren't even available to public yet. I guess if it's new and expensive, It must be the best new thing.
Old CNC bullets work just fine for deer. Just my opinion.
Regards,
Scott

OKAY .. So why spend anymore than " .08 Cents " ??
When all you really need is a plain old lead, ".22 cal Rimfire ", to Hunt Deer.

My best guess would be ? ;" Better Terminal Bullet Performance ", for your personal choice of loaded Ammo, which you are willing to pay more than ".08 cents ".

For The Record : I'll re-phrase myself.
OR you could spend a few more bucks on “ Better Bullets “ currently tested (R&D) for future production!

My personal choice would be !

Cutting Edge ESP RAPTOR

PAPI

I've shot several Whitetails W/CF rifles & 12ga slugs.

Niether of those will flatten a deer like a .535 round ball @ close range when the RB leaves the muzzle @ around 1900 FPS.

The fact that a RB is inferier as far as retained velocity & energy as the range increases also means that they shed their energy very quickly in the animal while still giving adequate penetration W/larger calibers.

I once saw the hide on the off side hindquarter split open about the length & width of a football when I hammered a LARGE doe through both shoulders & the sipne @ about 20 yards.

The flattened ball was the size of a quarter & still retained most of it's mass. It was stuck under the hide on the far side.

Well this is a great bullet. There was a good report from a 223 WSSM last weekend. Not to grt hung up on deer but I think it makes a marginal 22 deer cart and turns it into a great deer round. This will be made from 22 up to the big bores so I hope you try it and see.

Boomy and Sam,

This is so funny! Some of these guys have no earthly idea what is going on!

quote:

You can roll your eyes all you want but if I could get gas for $1 a gallon why would I pay $4? And the you are claiming they are the greatest big game bullet available. Are they even available? How long have they been on the market? What is their track record? Some of these bullets you are talking about aren't even available to public yet. I guess if it's new and expensive, It must be the best new thing.

Now this chap here, is totally missing the point! I don't think he understands the economical impact these bullets can actually have.

Let me see if I can help him understand.

If you look at the ESP Raptor, you will see it has two ends! One end, is a BBW#13 Nose profile solid, the finest nose profile ever seen, tested in every caliber from .224 to .620, and gives consistent, deep, straight line penetration each an every time. Tested both in the field on elephants, buffalo, hippo, and all manner of other critters with 100% success rate. The other end of the bullet is a BBW#13 NonCon HP. Obviously some have no idea what a "NonCon" is down here. NonCon stands for, Non Conventional. Whatever you have been taught all your shooting life is "Conventional" teachings, with a NonCon, you can throw everything you know out the window, it is of no value. Non Conventionals do follow "Conventional" rules, nor wisdom. So now you have a double ended bullet. ESP Raptor, Enhanced System Projectile. ESP. A tip is also provided that will give the same bullet a much better and higher BC. This .308 ESP Raptor weighs 130 grs, with the tip it has a BC of .300 or better.

Sam and I ran the first tests a couple of weeks ago with the 130 ESP Raptor. Both in 308 Winchester and 300 Winchester. Here are those results.





Now, as you can see in the photos above there were only 4 bullets tested in each 308 and 300, a total of 8 rounds fired! Hmmmm???? Oh this is the economical impact part now! In each 308 and 300 we tested the BBW#13 Solid end of the bullet first! Those bullets were recovered, and data recorded, and we turned right around and tested the same exact bullet again as a BBW#13 NonCon HP!

The economical impact being, you can buy 50 bullets, recover the solids first, and shoot them all over again as NonCon HPs!!!! You see, "Double the Bang" for the Buck, so to speak!




As for being available, I have orders coming in at the first of the week, 500 each in calibers .224, .257, .264, .308 and 250 each of .338, 358, 9.3, 416, and 458. So I reckon they are available. I have some on my bench now, just loaded them up in the old 30/30 and they will enhance the old 30/30 more than anything that has ever left the barrel of a 30/30! How do I know this? Because I have literally shot 1000s of them over the last year, mostly their big bore cousins from 416 caliber to .620 caliber, from 62 gr .224s to 900 gr .620s. I have shot elephants, buffalo, hippos and various other critters with both the solids and the NonCons, and I know how they work, both in the lab, and in the field!

Now to give you a benchmark to go by, here are a couple of conventionals tested the same day.





The ESP Raptor, with it's parents being BBW#13 Nose Profiles will give deeper penetration than any conventional bullet can give, even one with a great deal more SD. SD being one of those conventional teachings that you can throw out the window, as it does not apply or work with these NonCoventional bullets! Penetration is Number 1. If you can't get there, from reasonable angles, life is not lived broadside perfect in the field, then you want to be assured you have the best penetration available to you, and in addition provide trauma inflicted to that target. A BBW#13 NonCon provides that trauma, and then some. Far more than any conventional bullet I have ever used in the field. Trauma shows up in the test work as well.

A Non Conventional HP works one of two ways. Our Big Bore BBW#13 NonCons work like this, after 2 inches of penetration, animal tissue or test medium, 6 blades shear off the nose and move away from center wound channel. While these 6 individual blades are light, they do not push their way through test medium, nor animal flesh, but they slice their way through. Even the very light for caliber Big Bore NonCons, the blades themselves will exit a broadside deer. Sam proved this with our 50 B&M bullet last year, I think blades exited around 12 inches from where the center bullet exited. Now, as these blades move away from center, the center remaining slug continues to penetrate straight. Of course exiting something tiny as a deer, but they will also exit buffalo from nearly any angle, except from a dead rear or frontal shot. So penetration is there. On buffalo the big bore blades do not exit, and are found inside the chest cavity, along with torn pieces of lung, goo and heart tissue. Imagine if you can a small grenade with exploding shrapnel ripping and tearing at vital tissues. This is what happens.

With the smaller bore brass NonCons the blades are much smaller, lighter, and while they do move away from center, exactly as the big bore blades do, they do not have the momentum to carry them as far from center, nor as deep as the big bore bullets. So in the end, they remain closer to the center wound channel, and aid the center remaining bullet in widening that wound channel causing tremendous trauma in effect.

With Copper NonCons, that have not been annealed, the blades shear in a different manner. Since Copper is softer less brittle than brass, the blades tend to hang on and shear along the center wound channel and remaining inside the center wound channel while the remaining slug continues to penetrate. Both methods of shearing does tremendous damage to animal tissue, and transmits tremendous trauma to target.

Recently we tested and worked with a 55 gr BBW#13 NonCon in .224 caliber. It provided extreme trauma to the test medium, penetration was excellent. Here are some of those tests at different velocities.







Now for a benchmark we used a 62 gr Barnes TSX and tried to get velocity close with the two bullets.





And for giggles we tested a 55 gr Nosler BT





This is how a 62 gr BBW#13 Solid in .224 penetrates.



We did a lot of tests with the solid at higher velocity as well with results showing more penetration, but less consistency in penetration because at these higher velocities the nose was starting to deform somewhat, as you can see here.







Now I will be 100% honest with you, anything much under 416 caliber really has a hard time holding any interest for me at all, just don't have much use for rat calibers or rat rifles. But these bullets can and will turn your rat rifles into something useful for a change, it's up to you, I really don't care, these are far more to my liking anyway.













And there are hundreds if not 1000s of more just like you see above!

These are not everyday shoot'em up by the 100s bullets. These are not prairie dog bullets, these are not can plinking bullets, these are serious bullets for a serious shooter that wants the best and most he can get from his individual cartridge, or rifle when he goes to the field. If you are plinking paper and cans, these are not the bullets for you of course. That is not their purpose at all. You want a bullet that will enhance your cartridge and your success in the field, this is the bullet you want.

I have nothing to sell you, and I don't care if you agree or disagree, that's up to you. No skin off me, not in the bullet business although I keep these sort of bullets for my B&M series cartridges, along with North Forks for my rifles as well. Sam, myself, and now Boomy has joined in the design process of these bullets, none of us which are in or even related to the business, none of us has one thing we want to sell you, I am a Forester by profession myself. Our interest is to enhance our own field experiences and our success rates as well. Hunting is not cheap, I don't intend to use a cheap bullet.

Michael

Michael,

My original comment was about deer. I don't need a super duper bullet to kill deer. I acknowledged they had their place with larger game.

As far as shooting them twice, how in the hell do you plan on recovering a bullet when shooting it as a solid? It's going to go through the animal and be long gone.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Michael,

My original comment was about deer. I don't need a super duper bullet to kill deer. I acknowledged they had their place with larger game.

As far as shooting them twice, how in the hell do you plan on recovering a bullet when shooting it as a solid? It's going to go through the animal and be long gone.

Scott

An excellent point, I think you are correct, the solids will be hard to recover and shoot again!!! HEH HEH........

Michael

Tongue in cheek about firing twice.
So as you see these bullets out perform any on the market in terms of performance and are accurate. I'm not a bullet expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

Boom Stick you may not be an expert but you have come up with some great ideas.

I killed another Ele 9/17 using the BBW#13 on an anchoring shoulder shot. It smashed the shoulder and only stopped after going through the offside shoulder and coming to rest under the hide. There is no bullet that could have performed better. The only sign of use were the impressions made by the lands & grooves.

Maybe not needed for deer, but if you're paying $10,000 for a Rocky Mountain Elk in Colorado or a Cape Buffalo in Tanzania, this is the bullet you want to use, regardless of cost.

Could these petals be made to open without hitting tissue and give a parachute effect. I like shooting my pellet rifle in my backyard and I'd like em to not cross the property line.

Not going to happen but that reminds me that we were going to make a solid BBW profile pellet to test in an air gun. Might penetrate as well as a 22LR

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Boom Stick you may not be an expert but you have come up with some great ideas.

Thanks Sam
It's a team effort.
Without your offer to make the prototype we would not be here.

Again, I don't see where this bullet would ever gain much of a following for small bore shooters. I want to see more calibers offerd of this type of bullet offered by Cutting Edge. The FBHP has more practical use to me than the "ESP" bullet especially in my small bore rifles.

Taylorce1

It's all about the terminals and how different they are. Depends on your mission.

Michael

I looked briefly at the web site, but I don't see load data. Is there load data for these bullets? Also, boom stick says they come 50 pcs to a box with 25 tips. Why not 50 tips? That is what I would expect if I bought them.

quote:

I looked briefly at the web site, but I don't see load data. Is there load data for these bullets? Also, boom stick says they come 50 pcs to a box with 25 tips. Why not 50 tips? That is what I would expect if I bought them.

Well, not everyone would be using the tips, for every round. ..

1. Hunting with Solid Point
2. Hunting with " Leveraction "; One Pointed Tip in the Chamber, the rest loaded in tubular magazine; Alternate , Hollow Point / Solid , etc.
3. Hunting with Bolt Action ; Pointed Tip in the chamber; Tips too long to load in Magazine .. ?

So, bottom line ( extra Cost $$ ) not every situation would require a tip !

PAPI

They are just hitting the market and you can get more tips if you wanted. Load data would be great and I'll talk to CEB about that. These bullets with the minimal banding design will produce less resistance so that translates to lower pressure at the same velocities with same weight bullets or higher velocity.

boom stick, thanks for posting about this. It sounds very interesting and I will be following their progress. I am always interested in new and better products, if they actually work better.

I see they are on the exibitor's list for the upcoming NRA convention. I am not sure if I will go to the SCI convention, but if I do and they are at that event, I will stop by their booth.

quote:

Originally posted by 338zmag:
I looked briefly at the web site, but I don't see load data. Is there load data for these bullets? Also, boom stick says they come 50 pcs to a box with 25 tips. Why not 50 tips? That is what I would expect if I bought them.

338

Tips right now are very expensive trying to keep the price reasonable and the fact that many will not use or need the tips in many cases, then only 25 per box of 50 is needed. Tips are added, after loading the bullet, if needed or desired. With tips added, the bullets will work in most magazines easy. Tips added to the .308 130 Raptor fit easy in 308 Win magazines. We think that most Raptors will do the same, this is what they are designed to do. Solid, standard FN NonCon, and tipped for higher BC, anyway you want it, 100yds all the same POI either way you play.

Load Data! Easy, as with all the BBW#13s pressures run lower than standard conventional bullets, brass pressure normally run less than copper being the same. I run strain gages on all the B&M rifles, all bigger bores, and pressure run less each and every time compared to other bullets. On the Raptors and the 224 NonCons and Solids, I ran loads that were the same for other bullets in their weight class and zero issues. Testing the 30/30 with the Raptors the other day, I did not even have any of my own personal data on 30/30. I just went to the Barnes book, picked some loads out of it for the same weight, and had a good time! No problems! Of course, always use proper methods for working up loads, blah blah blah!

Stick some of these through animal flesh, and you will know what they are about! All of you!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
Again, I don't see where this bullet would ever gain much of a following for small bore shooters. I want to see more calibers offerd of this type of bullet offered by Cutting Edge. The FBHP has more practical use to me than the "ESP" bullet especially in my small bore rifles.

And you are the chap complaining about the failure on the 243 thread here in small bores! The bullet you see is a copper bullet, and I suppose is fine, never tested those, but I know exactly what the ESP Raptors will do, along with the BBW#13 Solids and NonCons for real rifles! Terminal performance in the extreme. You want exit and extreme trauma inflicted on that pronghorn, you would have gotten serious penetration and trauma inflicted with a 55 gr .224 BBW#13 NonCon, and any of the Raptors. You won't recover ESP Raptors on any broadside shot on deer or pronghorn, just as you say you wanted on those size animals. Not to mention trauma inflicted to the correct areas, the vitals!

Michael

Why do peole spend a buck or more a bullet?
They want the best bullet for the job.
I think the bullets made by CEB are just that in most cases. The best bullet for the job.
Outside of harvesting a few meat deer for the freezer hunting is damn expensive. If I'm on an elk hunt of a lifetime I want nothing less than the best. If it cost me a few more bucks for the best bullet for that job I will not blink an eye. If I had a Ferrari I would not put in mid or low grade gas. I know that the way these bullets perform even on an ok less than stellar shot that animal is dead and even more so on a good shot. Added that these bullets are getting tiny groups! It is my opinion that in a couple years these bullets will go from virtually unknown to being the bullet of choice for bullet snobs. Join the bullet snob club. Look at the website and you will see that CEB is passionate about making the best bullets on the market. Just look at their extremely great target bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
Again, I don't see where this bullet would ever gain much of a following for small bore shooters. I want to see more calibers offed of this type of bullet offered by Cutting Edge. The FBHP has more practical use to me than the "ESP" bullet especially in my small bore rifles.

And you are the chap complaining about the failure on the 243 thread here in small bores!

Yes that was me, I was wanting to know if the kind of bullet separation my buddy experienced was typical of the Hornady 100 grain BTSP. I never quite got the answer I was looking for.

My point is solids don't do me any good as I can't use them for my hunting. The HP side of the bullet is fine but I prefer the higher BC offered with the tips. How long is this bullet? It looks to me with the tips on it will be too long to be usable in the magazines of my bolt actions. Especially in the small bores where I'm looking for a sturdier bullet that still performs well.

So I would still prefer a flat base hollow point bullet in length that will work in my magazines in a usable weight as well. .224 calibers aren't legal where I do 90% of my hunting. Plus I need a 70 grain or heavier to meet minimum requirements for what I'm most likely to hunt with a small bore rifle anyway.

Hi Taylor

The Raptors with the tips on the 130 308 fit in a Remington short action in the magazine, zero issues. As they do in 300 WSM, 300 Win and so forth. Each Raptor in the various calibers will be designed to do the same. As I understand, .257, .264, right on up to 375 will be designed to fit the magazines of most available bolt guns. I run nothing but Winchesters here, have a few trashy remingtons and rugers on hand to check. Usable weights, well you have to remember, these are NonConventional--therefore Conventional rules do not apply. I venture to say that performance and penetration of these NonCons will out perform any conventional, regardless of weight. But we will be testing each and every one that comes out before they will be available to make sure. And too, you might be surprised how handy the solid end of the Raptor can be in some circumstances!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Hi Taylor

The Raptors with the tips on the 130 308 fit in a Remington short action in the magazine, zero issues. As they do in 300 WSM, 300 Win and so forth. Each Raptor in the various calibers will be designed to do the same. As I understand, .257, .264, right on up to 375 will be designed to fit the magazines of most available bolt guns. I run nothing but Winchesters here, have a few trashy remingtons and rugers on hand to check. Usable weights, well you have to remember, these are NonConventional--therefore Conventional rules do not apply. I venture to say that performance and penetration of these NonCons will out perform any conventional, regardless of weight. But we will be testing each and every one that comes out before they will be available to make sure. And too, you might be surprised how handy the solid end of the Raptor can be in some circumstances!

Michael

Michael,

I get these are "Non Con" bullets and traditional thinking isn't where I'm having the problem. It is great that these bullets feed from the magazine on a .308, but we are in the small bore forums and the .308 isn't a small bore. Plus where I'm hunting 90% of the time I have rules that my bullet must comply with.

1. I can only use an expanding type bullet for big game.
2. 6mm/.243 diameter minimum caliber for all big game.
3. 70 grain for deer, pronghorn, and bear, 85 grain for elk and moose.
4. 1000 ft lbs of energy @ 100 yards for rifle 500 ft lbs @ 100 for pistol.

So regardless if this is a "Non Con" or not it has to fill this need to start with. My rifle that I'm looking for a better bullet to shoot is a Stevens 200 that I rebarreled to 6x47 Rem with a 1:12 twist barrel. My biggest problems is magazine length and twist on this rifle. I could rebarrel and re-work the magazine but the most efficent way to improve this rifle is to find a bullet that fits the limitations of my rifle and is legal in my State.

Right now GS Customs and Rhino come the closest to what I'm looking for. The GS is one grain too light with a 69 grain bullet, and as for the Rhino bullet Safari never filled my order for 100 of their 75 grain 6mm bullets. My next bullet to try is the 80 grain TTSX from Barnes which if they stabalize and make better than 2800 fps will probably be my go to bullet for this rifle. However, I'd really prefer a lighter weight bullet that I could drive a little faster if I'm going to a monolithic style bullet. I've scratched the itch to hunt with this rifle by taking a pronghorn at 300 yards with a Nosler BT in 70 grains. That said the 70 grain NBT bullet really narrows the window of opportunity I have to shoot game with.

I have a daughter who wants to hunt and will be capabale of hunting in a few years but has really not tolerated any recoil above a .223 yet. A lot of that has to do with the fact the rifles I let her shoot don't fit her and that she is only 8 years old. I've been thinking of cutting down the stock on this rifle to fit her, and taking her to TX for pigs or exotics instead of waiting until she is 12 to hunt big game in Colorado. I'll already be limiting her shots to inside 100 yards and I don't have a good feeling about the performance on game with the 70 grain NBT.

I realize that any bullet can be used in TX as far as weight and there are no ft lb restrictions either. That said I still want a bullet that will work in CO as well in case she still shows the low tolerance for recoil when she is older. If CEB's ESP Raptor will fit the bill and feed from my magazine I might just give them a try, but I still would rather have their FB hunting bullet in a 6mm/.243 if it is ever offered in 70 grains.

I know that the 270 is 110 grains so I would hope the 6mm is above 70 grains. I will look into it.

Whew, Taylor, lot's or rules to follow I see. Sorry, I pretty much consider anything under 416 to be small bore! My reference to the 308s, I am not a 30 fan. Figure good for rats and such. My apology.

I am not at all familiar with your Stevens, so or even a 6X47 Rem. So I can't tell you what the Raptor is going to be in that caliber, .243 I assume? Dan went over them with me the other day, and I agreed to almost all the weights in given calibers, but can't recall some of the small ones. Sorry! Boomy, Nathan should know these things as Dan is out, Nathan is running the 308 Raptors I think now??

Taylor, we will find out what they are going to be, might help you, might not. To much I can't attest, to terminals of these I can, they do things you would not think capable of! They keep me fooled too!

So we see what we see, good luck in your endeavors!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Whew, Taylor, lot's or rules to follow I see. Sorry, I pretty much consider anything under 416 to be small bore! My reference to the 308s, I am not a 30 fan. Figure good for rats and such. My apology.

I am not at all familiar with your Stevens, so or even a 6X47 Rem. So I can't tell you what the Raptor is going to be in that caliber, .243 I assume? Dan went over them with me the other day, and I agreed to almost all the weights in given calibers, but can't recall some of the small ones. Sorry! Boomy, Nathan should know these things as Dan is out, Nathan is running the 308 Raptors I think now??

Taylor, we will find out what they are going to be, might help you, might not. To much I can't attest, to terminals of these I can, they do things you would not think capable of! They keep me fooled too!

So we see what we see, good luck in your endeavors!

Michael

Stevens 200 is just a Savage rifle nothing fancy, but it gets the job done. 6x47 Rem is just a .222 Remington Magnum necked up to 6mm. I'm able to get a 70 grain bullet to exit the barrel above 3060 fps at the muzzle from a 20" barrel and it stays above 2000 fps to 350 yards with the 70 grain NBT. A MV of 3060 fps gives me a little over 1100 ft lbs of energy at 100 yards with the NBT.

In my first post this is what I stated I wanted:

quote:

What I really want (since posted in the small bore forum) more than that bullet is a 70-80 grain flat base bulelt around .90-1" long that I can run in my 6X47 Rem 1:12 twist. This bullet needs to be tougher than a varmint bullet and have reliable expansion from 2000-3000+ fps.

I want the flat base to make a more compact bullet, that would stabalize with my twist better. Plus any advantage to a boat tail wouldn't ever be realized since the effective range of this round is around 300-350 yards. I still want the sleek profile though of a ballistic tip or secant ogive bullet so that I don't fall below 2000 fps before I reach 300-350 yards.

Once the bullet gets over 1" in length I start running into stability issues as well as eating up the powder capacity with seating depth. I realize what I'm asking for is a higly specialized bullet for my rifle, but I think there are enough guys out there running a 6x45 aka 6-.223 Rem cartridge in AR's there could be a small market for a 70 grain monolithic bullet. That way they wouldn't be limited to using fast twist barrels to launch heavy for caliber bullets to do what a 70 grain mono bullet would do.

I have heard conflicting theory on stability. One side is that it's not about the length but the weight. Eg all things being equal minus length it will be equally stable. Another side being it's about length not weight. Did that make sense? So for example the same bullet with the tip should be as stable as without the tip even though bullet length changes. The other theory is in reverse. I think it is more about the weight than the length if the twist is ok for that weight. I'm open to being wrong.