quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:

In my first post this is what I stated I wanted:

quote:

What I really want (since posted in the small bore forum) more than that bullet is a 70-80 grain flat base bulelt around .90-1" long that I can run in my 6X47 Rem 1:12 twist. This bullet needs to be tougher than a varmint bullet and have reliable expansion from 2000-3000+ fps.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
You might want to give the 85 Nosler Partition a look. I know it's 5 grains heavier but it's COL friendly at .95". Speer is also introducing an 80 grain DeepCurl which is bonded. The Deepcurls I have are very COL friendly. It may work for you when it comes out.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
OK lot's of work going on here and already running behind schedule!

As stated above, I completed terminal test work on the .224 40 gr ESP Raptor yesterday. My part in the testing of these new bullets is "terminals" only. Since there are so many of these in all calibers, then I am only doing a part of the test, the terminals. Dan and company, along with Sam will be doing accuracy, BC tests, long range tests and stability tests with all of them before they are approved for production. My responsibility, Terminals Only.

These rat calibers I will be testing at 48 yards impact, long as I can get the rifle half way sighted in with them. The exact distance between the two chronographs is NOT 48 yards, but 40 Yards even. Bear this in mind.

I am testing the .224s in two rifles, two cartridges. 223 Remington in a big heavy S&W AR 15 Target rifle I bought from a chap a few years ago. It is incredibly accurate, and easy to shoot. Even for me. Twist rate is 1:9 for the S&W. The other cartridge is 223 WSSM, Winchester M70 Ultimate, 22 inch barrel. I THINK???? it's 1:9 twist, but not 100% sure of that--Please if anyone knows for sure on this, or can find out while I am doing the test work, it would be nice to know, so yes regular guys, get on this mission for me, and while you are at it, get me the twist rate for a Win M70 25 WSSM also, that is next after the 55 ESP Raptor.

Tests are done in this order
Raptor NonCon HP No Tip
Raptor NonCon HP With Talon Tip
Raptor Solid

First, report the 223 Remington, 40 gr ESP Raptor. Big Bores for Rats! HEH......








Below this gave good trauma, blades sheared at 2 inches and stayed closer to center. As you can see from the 3 inch witness card as well.






This came as a surprise to me, with the Talon Tip added the blades sheared at 1 inch and dispersed like a normal big bore NonCon, star pattern further away from center. Check the Witness card again at 3 inches. Something else is that the velocity was higher, and more consistent with the tip added, than without the tip! ??






As a solid the little Raptor performed incredibly well, even at velocity. However, velocity was beginning to take it's toll on the nose! Regardless it drove true and straight. Would be excellent for parting shots at game not brought immediately down, could prevent a loss of game animal in the end!






Continued;

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Next let's look at the 223 WSSM.




With no tip, as a normal NonCon the extra velocity bought a bit more penetration. Trauma was good, but not as extensive, or maybe as WIDE, as with the tip once again.







Added the tip, again velocity was higher, along with more consistency in the load?? Once again, shear occurred at 1 inch, large star pattern at 3 inches. Lot's of trauma. In fact, the two bullets together each side at 3-4 inches looked like a big bore bullet trauma!






The 40 Raptor as a solid at this velocity started to suffer some, as the nose deformed even more. They went straight to 21 inches, lost stability at that, found at 23 inches sideways. Velocity not your best friend here. But this was expected as well.



This concludes my portion of the work on the .224 40 gr ESP Raptor. I found at 50 yards stability in both rifles I was shooting, I cannot comment on accuracy except with the S&W AR in 223 Remingtion, where I did shoot a 3 shot group at 50, all in a hole. I did not have enough left over to work with after getting the loads right, and doing the terminals to test No Tip, Tipped, and Solid POIs. I will leave initial work in these areas to Dan and Sam.

I will be working on several things today and tomorrow, namely one of them will be the .224 55 gr ESP Raptor.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I have heard conflicting theory on stability. One side is that it's not about the length but the weight. Eg all things being equal minus length it will be equally stable. Another side being it's about length not weight. Did that make sense? So for example the same bullet with the tip should be as stable as without the tip even though bullet length changes. The other theory is in reverse. I think it is more about the weight than the length if the twist is ok for that weight. I'm open to being wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
Now penetration tests. I shot 3 of the 40 Raptors, three of the 55 BBW#13 Non Cons, and 2 of my 60 grain Nosler Solid Base bullets as "control."

I don't have, and can't post, pictures from the house here so you will have to go by descriptions. At any rate, the BB#13 55 grain shows the classic "star" pattern posted by Micheal in all of his threads and pictures. Go look at that thread, the damage, and his description of it, and that is what I got. No need for me to post pics, they are for all intents and purposes the same as his. Petals sheared about 2-2.5 inches, and I picked them all out around 4". Nasty, they did alot of damage.

My 40 ESP Raptors did better than Micheals though. The petals on his stayed close to center, but mine spread out more. Not quite like the 55's, they were more pronounced, but you could still see it. Once again. 2.5 to 4 inches in the media was devastating.

My control rounds of the old Nosler 60 solid base weren't bad though. Wound track length and volume were comparable to the 40, even though there were some differences. The Nosler was a little more gradual in and out, but the base of the 40 was probably tougher. Neither could compare with the 55. It was a beast. The 55 is the best bullet I have tested, hands down, no BS.

Penetration:

40 ESP Raptor, average 8.75"
60 Nosler SB, average 9.75"
55 BBW#13 NC average 11.5"

I would take the 55 over a Barnes any day. IMO the 40 just needs a little more weight.

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
Okay, two does down this morning with the 40 ESP Raptor. I was shooting a couple on MLD tags for one of the guys at work who wanted some meat. He puts in an order for "tender" so I shoot him small ones. He doesn't like the old ones.

So, first one was about as close to the same shot as you can get to the first doe I shot this year. Only difference was the shot was R to L, not L to R. She ran maybe 15-20 yards before going down. Broke two ribs going in, made one heck of a mess, broke a rib going out, nicked the shoulder and the bullet is still in there somewhere. My guy is supposed to save it for me when he butchers it. All in all nearly the exact same performance as the 60 Solid Base, but in a bullet that weighs 20 grains less. Pretty impressive, really. I would say depth was somewhat deeper due to a harder angle, and initial damage was somewhat more impressive as well.

I wish I could have paid more attention to the internal organs as I was field dressing her, but I had a slight problem. I am allergic to deer hair, not horribly so or anything, but my eyes are very sensitive to it. The wind got up and blew some up into my right eye as I was dressing the first deer, by the time I was on this one I was pretty much just holding one eye shut and using the other. Depth perception sucks that way, had to drive home like that. I'm fine now that I washed it out, but anyways...

The other deer we aren't getting any bullet out of, it is clear and gone. It was tricky getting her because she was spooked from the first shot and my angle was bad. I took her a couple inches too far forward and turned my vital shot into a base of the neck shot. I didn't hit any vitals but broke the onside shoulder and blew out the throat and jugular. She depressurized fast and bled out, medical shock. She was confused, ran right at me for about 35 yards and piled up right about 15 yards from my treestand. That bullet was pretty impressive, even had one of the petals make it's own exit wound through the skin. So, even on a bad shot, it was a one shot kill that needed no follow up.

.223 count this year so far, 3 rounds expended, three dead does.

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
I made a mistake earlier when I said the shot was reversed, it wasn't. Got to thinking about that this evening on the stand and realized I was wrong. And I did look at the innards in the gutpile when I went back out this afternoon. The core of the bullet barely grazed the top of the heart, but interestingly enough, there were three othe holes lower down in the heart from petals. After seeing that I would have to give the nod to the Raptor over the 1/3 heavier Nosler.

Now, something else I thought of this afternoon on the stand. Once again, penetration in flesh was 1.8 to 2x what we see in newspaper. Now, lets correlate that to the petals. If they shear at 2 and stop at 4 in newspaper, does that mean in flesh the zone is more like shear at 4 and stop at 8? that seemed alot closer to what I observed today in flesh. The heart was probably 7-8" in from the bullet strike, yet had 3 clearly defined petal cuts in it. The neck shot had one petal exit too, through skin. Makes you think.

I need to shoot more deer now that I know more what to look for. Got skunked tonight, dang full moon. I hate a full moon the way Micheal hates leopards.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Hopefully all you will have to do in the future is buy some 50 grain raptors.
That's great that you did this.
Looking forward to the tests.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Raptor has struck again. I shot a cull deer today with a .223 40 grain Raptor with tip at 125 yards. The rifle was a 22-243 Middlestead with a 1-8 twist. Velocity was 4345 fps at 15 ft from muzzle. Deer dropped so fast I wasn't sure of my shot as he was in a small opening. Not a wiggle out of it. Bullet did incredible damage inside and broke the entry shoulder and exited just behind the off shoulder. Very impressive for a 40 grain bullet.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
Great shot with the raptors, Wish my cousin had them last weekend for his first deer rather than some american eagle factory loads, I am sure we would have found the deer.

If anybody is interested I posted in the handgun hunting forum about Hollow points failing. It not a big bore topic but I watched a cheap bullet ruin a 15 year olds first deer hunt .

Thanks
Matt



Matt

Of all the things I have said about using the right bullet, of all the things and reasons and arguments I have ever put forth, or ever heard in my life, what you have just stated above is the most valid reason to have a proper bullet--EVEN FOR DEER--That I have ever heard!

Thanks for bringing this to the table for all of us on terminals. I feel for your young cousin and his first deer. An awful experience for sure. One that as hunters at some point or another have tread on before unfortunately. Hopefully a lesson learned by him, and by all of us as a reminder that even with deer you need a proper bullet. Yes, from what I am seeing, and hearing, in either Raptor form, or BBW#13 NonCon that they are damned deadly on deer. A friend of mine here in SC called last night, with his 4th deer that fell to a 55 gr BBW#13 at 3700 fps in his 223 WSSM. That's 4 shots--4 deer all dropped to the shot now. Sam with his Raptor deer above, tremendous damage, and the thing exited to boot! Then there are two more deer dropped by Raptors in TX as well. Pretty amazing to me, for a 223!

Again, I think its excellent you bring this to the table to let everyone know that no matter the game, one should have the best bullet you can have! There are plenty of good reasons, but the reason you give is very compelling!

Michael