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 one can only hope | |||
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Hope has the substance of air, and gives evidence to things not seen.  But I really know you want me to stay, since you know how to cause another post, by changing the meaning of my previous posts by cutting and editing. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Please don't give up KB. As you can see, I've got my work cut out for me with all the intellectual stuff they're throwing at me  You're absolutely right gunmaker, the .223, especially in the tacticool configuration makes an unbeatable deer cartridge. If it was me, I would have it set to fulll auto to take advantage of the spray and pray strategy I see so much on the sporting courses here. Actually, the deer you guys shoot are so small I don't know why you don't shoot them like rabbits (12 gauge and 7 1/2's). The .223 in the tacticool config is actually preferable to a bolt gun because of its ability to wound more animals in a shorter period of time. I've really underestimated you all, you know, starting the "goober" stuff and all. Can you ever forgive me? I sure hope so. | |||
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Not sure I ever made that argument. I'm also not sure there ANY unbeatable cartridges. Rubbing you and KB's deer hunt gone bad stories in your faces kind of makes my point. If you think shooting a larger caliber somehow puts you on higher ground & makes you a more effective hunter, your sadly mistaken. | |||
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You have certainly taught me a lesson - about being candid, telling the truth, and the whole story. Do it at the risk of some AH trying to use it for embarrassment, to win an argument, when it has no point in the discussion other than that. It kinda pisses me off that you already knew that, but thanks for the lesson - AH. Larger caliber - More effective hunter? --- Hummm I/we could go through a long winded list of factors that make a "more effective hunter". The good judgment to use a larger caliber in certain circumstances would surely be on the list, even if it was a statistical thing, based on probability, math, etc. Of course a larger caliber isn't the whole thing. However, as she said, a larger caliber is most certainly the hole thing. I suppose that analogy counts. The smaller the caliber, the more technique is important, and of course range and penetration is limited by sectional density, whether considering the whole thing or the hole thing. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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223 one shot kills.   I have a lot of others if you want to see them. Butch | |||
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Awesome. You certainly know how to use all the sectional density ya got, to the max. Congrats. Yes, more pictures, please. What kind of rifle is that? Looks like a Lites Out Woinkers (LOW) class rifle to me. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Kabluewy, I just wore out your email with stories and pics. Pat Byrne uses a 700, a Stiller receiver, and an AR. He is a killing machine. He probably kills 100 hogs a year. His 223AI uses 45grn TTSX bullets. He uses 68grn BR bullets that he makes in his 6x47 and different sizes in his AR. I wish that I knew how to put all his emails and stories together in one area. I could also do that with his bow kills with his recurve. Butch | |||
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Perhaps true but consdier this. In a ware sometimes you prefer to wound the opposing force as opposed to swiftly kill it. Kill someone and that is one less person shooting back. Wound someone and you will likely tie up one or two other combatants while the tend to the one that is wounded. So you have to ask if the 223 was developed for swift kills or to wound and incapaciate. | |||
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Wound | |||
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Listen, in all seriousness, For deer the size of my Labs in my pic here, I think the .223 would be fine. Mamma dog is close to 80#s. My buddy has one that goes 100. The .223 would work fine at 100 yards. I've never seen deer that small but you guys say you have them, hence the jackalope comment. Our deer are big and strong and it would never enter my mind to shoot them with anything that couldn't fire a 100ish grain bullet. | |||
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I still favor 100gr +, or better 120gr +, but what do you have to say about all those dead Woinkers in Butch's post? They look bigger than labs to me. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Last I checked, it's a free country. Until some know it all's who have no experience pass more laws based solely on rational ignorance. | |||
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Again KB, the question is not "if" the .223 will kill. A .22 LR could kill hogs. Heck, at the SHOT show at the Gamo booth, they ran a video of hogs being shot and killed with their air rifles. Does this mean you should do it? Not hardly. Geez, I went and did it again! Now goobers all over the place will be hunting deer with air rifles! | |||
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It's truly amazing how much power a little cartridge has over those who dare not use it. The power to turn ordinary men into trolls with just the mention of it's name. | |||
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It' truly amazing how much this little cartridge affects those who use it, by turning gunsmiths into blithering idiots, and otherwise rational men into proxymorons, and true believers. However, such a statement gives inappropriate power to the cartridge, since it's not the cartridge at all. It is just a small assembly of brass, powder, lead, copper, etc. - no extraordinary powers, magical or mysterious qualities, as may be found in a witchdoctor's arrow. Thus those who may appear to be affected by the use of the cartridge, were really that way all along, or became that way independently, and the cartridge has nothing to do with their condition, but merely a reflection of it. It's like a stone age hunter downsizing his arrows, because he has acquired the belief that he is a great hunter, that he is an extraordinary man among common men, and he shall distinguish his skill and ego by using smaller arrows to do the same thing ordinary men, with normal egos or not afflected, choose to do with traditional proven arrows. Sure - the game struck runs further before falling, and some get away entirely, with the small arrow stuck in them, but there's always subjectivity, rationalization and justification, shot placment and such, and he's still a big man, great hunter, and his ego is safe. Eventually, the tribe called such a guy an eccentric old witchdoctor (stoneage proxymoron), and the younger hunters on their learning curve to manhood, and most of those in-between - goobers. Some goobers graduate into proxymorons, and some just remain goobers, and some choose to use bigger arrows, thus with mere choice remove themselves from the witchdoctor and goober gene pool. So, one shouldn't feel bad about being a witchdoctor or a goober, since it's genetic, evolutionary. Somewhere in your distant past, one of your ancesters used small arrows. Fortunately, it isn't inevitable, and breaking the cycle is as easy as using bigger arrows, or cartridges bigger than 223 for deer.  Then again, maybe some stone age hunters were recoil shy, as some hunters are nowadays, which is one good explanation of the use of small arrows or the 223. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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 unless you want to control what they eat. priceless  | |||
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Talking to some of you about using a 223 on deer is about like talking to this guy about the inadequacies of his AK47.  Witchdoctors:       ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Numerous favorable reports to include pictures. But the naysayers have them running away crippled and their size reduced to dog size. As of yet, not one negative report of actual experience. With a keyboard I could easily have ALL magnum shot deer running off crippled. The deer here are smaller than other parts of the country, but bigger than most dogs. | |||
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And why do you suppose that is? VooDoo, magic, fact filtering, ego maintenance? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Kabluewy-- Not one negative report of actual experience. Why do I suppose that is? I suppose it is because there are a lot here with keyboard only experience. No real experience to draw from. Certainly there are cases of wounded game with smaller cals. You know what? Magnums-same same. The one thing about this thread that has surprised me is that the .243 seems to be viewed by most of the naysayers as adequate. Usually those advocating bigger guns frown on .243. Again a case of no actual experience would be how I view that. | |||
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Butch Lambert Everyone of those pigs seem to be smiling. Did they die laughing at you because you used a .223 or ---tell us the truth thats really a .300 magnum isnt it? .223--ridiculous we all know it wont kill a pig. | |||
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carpertman1, You might say that! Butch | |||
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I use my .223 all the time! It's a great prarie dog and coyote gun. I just happen to have the common sense not to shoot big game with it. It's an A-Bolt Medallion with BOSS and is accurate:  I think that all rifles chambered for the round should come with instructions complete with pictures so that you all can understand things that people with a conscience take for granted. THANK YOU FOR PURCHASING THE ACME RIFLE CHAMBERED IN THE VERSITILE .223 REMINGTON! PLEASE READ INSTRUCTIONS CAREFULLY* BEFORE USING THIS RIFLE. *IF YOUR LAST NAME IS PILE OR ARE ANY RELATION TO THE PILE FAMILY, STUDY THESE PICTURES. This rifle is suited to targets and animals that look like this:  Like this:  And of course deer, if your deer happen to look like this:  In these cases, the results will be this:  PLEASE REFRAIN (DON'T) FROM SHOOTING ANIMALS THAT LOOK LIKE THIS:  THIS:  AND THIS:  ACME ARMS MAKES NO WARRANTY, WRITTEN OR IMPLIED, WHEN THE RIFLE IS USED NEGLIGENTLY. RESULTS MAY VARY AND ACME WILL NOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR DAMAGES.
I don't think we'll hear any negative reports here. We have had MANY posts saying that they have used the .223 to take deer, but wouldn't do it again or recommend the chambering for deer. Yes, magnum shot deer can run away as well with a bad shot, but the point is that the animal dies a quicker, more humane (not the hairdoo made popular by Hugh the barber in Mt. Pilot) death with identically placed shots. See pics above about using the round on tiny deer... | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by carpetman1: Kabluewy-- Not one negative report of actual experience. Why do I suppose that is? I suppose it is because there are a lot here with keyboard only experience. No real experience to draw from. Certainly there are cases of wounded game with smaller cals. You know what? Magnums-same same. [QUOTE] Exactly - magnum same-same, non-magnum same-same. The smaller the cartridge, the greater the probability. So, why is it not showing up in the first hand - "experienced" reports? This key board thing goes both ways. It somehow can tell the truth, and it can withhold the truth or lie. [QUOTE]The one thing about this thread that has surprised me is that the .243 seems to be viewed by most of the naysayers as adequate. Usually those advocating bigger guns frown on .243.[QUOTE] I don't own a 243, but I would rather use one much preferred over a 223. View it however you want. That doesn't make it so. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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kb--How I view it doesnt make it so. Hmmm---how you view it with NO EXPERIENCE does make it so? Amazing. | |||
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rcam---"A bad shot with magnum deer dies a quicker more humane death." Therin lies the reason keyboard types buy magnum----the ol hit em anywhere theory---pure BS---even if the WalMart counter guy told you that--it aint true. | |||
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Magic how that works, eh? Where is it that you come up with this notion that I have no experience? My hair is gray, does that invalidate my opinion? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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KB--I come up with it that you have no actual experience based on ZERO posts where you relate experience. I'm sure if you had such you'd post about it. I'd be happy to read all your actual experience that proves that wrong. Please post. | |||
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http://forums.accuratereloadin...1621043/m/8221048321 ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Again, as we continue to see, you have edited my statements to suit your needs. My actual post reads:
Note the use of the phrase "identically placed shots. I was referring to well placed shots with either cartridge. Can you disagree that with identically placed shots in the vitals the bullet with more kinetic energy kills more cleanly, quickly, humanely? I think you can't because of all of the proxymoronic statements about "well placed shots with the .223 with the right bullet". "The right bullet" has been described as one with greater mass and better construction by the proxymorons. A self-refuting argument. Follow your own thinking; use the gun made to shoot bullets of that description. | |||
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I just did some geneology research. I've been saying "Pile" family when it should read "Pyle" Sorry... | |||
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KW---- I clicked on the link. Texas hill country is North of Dallas??? When did they move it?? Didnt see any experience with .223--was a .308---those are two much different cartridges. I thought I had the secret to the controversey figured out. A .223 will not work if you have gray hair---your experience is based on gray hair. Then I looked at Mr Lamberts hair color. Butch is that a dye job? Surely you dont have gray hair but can kill pigs with a .223. | |||
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rcam---You are switching horses mid stream. You talk of a poor placed shot and the animal dies quicker and more humane. Then you asked if I can argue about the higher energy well placed shot. Yes I can. If it is a well placed shot--big or large you have a dead animal. With bad placed shot ---big or large you have a cripple. | |||
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Oh ya got me there.  I was wrong once. Those Texas guys had me all turned around the time previous I was there. By the time we got out of Dallas, I didn't know North from South, and didn't care. Since then I checked it out on Google Earth. For the record, I said before that I have used the 243, in younger days, and had success with it on deer. I have little doubt that I could do it again. I also know that I could take deer with a 223, with little problem. I know how to use one, but just have little use for it. (Like Quigley) My ego doesn't need it, and I don't like tracking deer after the shot. I would like to have an accurate 243. I think it would be fun, and I would probably use it some for deer. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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carpetman, Open your eyes, take your fingers out of your ears, and quit blathering "lalalalalalala" to ignore what is plainly written. Also, I recommend getting a grip on yourself and "fizzicks" | |||
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Game, set, and match.... | |||
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rcam--unless you go back and edit--it is clear who contradicts themself. You are trying to advance the bogus theory that a bad shot with a magnum is forgiving. | |||
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rcam---I always heard getting a grip on self would make you go blind---perhaps you went beyond that? | |||
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