Thanks Mick,

I guess krochus hasn't figured out how to click on a posted link either.


I just got through watching two hunting shows where the boys got their whitetails…

They're about the size of a B&C jackalope, so I guess the .223 is perfect.

OK so we have an English major from 60 years ago culling for ivory in Africa coming up with equasions to tell us what won't kill 160 lb whitetail in north America when using bullets developed in the past decade.

OH SNAP! when you put it that way it makes total sense..........nonsense that is.

quote:

I just got through watching two hunting shows where the boys got their whitetails…

OHHHHHH! so this is where you're getting this vast knowledge of all things hunting you've NOT been wow!ing us with. You prolly already think the TC Encore is the greatest rifle on the planet now too.

I'll tell ya what. When we have a thread about shooting coyotes at 1000yds with a 243 I'll STFU and let you have your say as that's something I have no experiance about whatsoever.

Why don't you extend the same courtesy to your complete and utter lack of experience in this thread.

BTW how does a 243wssm at 1000 figure in on the taylor index?

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I only copied part of the page you can click on the link below and read the whole page for yourself.

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm

and just to illustrate how staggeringly stupid this index is at a K.O. index of 6 the .223 64grn win power point load makes it for MULE DEER in open country (long shots) but not whitetail in cover (close shots). Now I may be wrong and correct me if I am but aren't mule deer roughly TWICE the size of eastern whitetails?

and ya'll want to go by this bunk?

Heck I'll freely admit a .223 for mulies at longer ranges would be stupid.

Has anyone seen any outdoor tv show with whitetails being shot with the .223?

I think not


Why?


Because they don't want to get taken off of the air for promoting anything irresponsible related to hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Has anyone seen any outdoor tv show with whitetails being shot with the .223?

I think not


Why?


Because they don't want to get taken off of the air for promoting anything irresponsible related to hunting.

So after laying waste to every single solitary point you've brought up including your beloved Taylor index this is all you have left????

No well known writers- I burnt you on that
No ammo suitable (cxp index)----I burnt you on that
The taylor index---I burnt you on that
No experiance-----I burnt you on that

and where we now? "as seen on TV"

Taken off the air by who the hunting ethics bureau?
Dude just leave before the FAIL gets up over your head and you drown.


BTW just in case you've forgotten what this thread was about

quote:

Who has taken what medium game (hogs deer ect) with what .223 load?

Note I am NOT asking an ETHICAL question. I just want to know whats been done, and pics are great.

Yeah krochus, you really showed me what for!

Complete mental domination.

I guess I'll know better next time than to tangle with a guy like you.

Post your jackalope load so I can duplicate it.

You've brought me into the fold.

I enjoy reading this and other post here..While my experience certainly pales before many that post here, I'm not exactly a beginner..I killed my first ungulate sixty two years ago..a desert mule deer, with a .257 Roberts [and likely a 117 gr sierra] I was seven years old. Since then I've killed well in excess of two hundred ungulates on two continents, from about three feet above sea level to over 10,000 feet. I just counted the various cartridges I've used and unless I've left one out...I've killed em' with fifteen different cartridges, and have no idea how many different bullets. My late father, my son and I have killed at least 150 deer with .22 centerfire rifles..mostly 22-250s, with 53gr seirra match kings, some with 222s, 222 mags and bullets such as nosler 60 partition, original 55 gr trophy bonded, and likely some other different bullets. While these have not been giant northern deer, most have been mature west texas whitetails that field dress 125 to 140 lbs. Avarage distance was probably 150yds. Most have been shot just behind the shoulder, however, some where shot on the meaty part of the shoulder. In that instance, the deer is just as dead, but you likely will ruin that shoulder...in either instance, inside the chest cavity will be soup. About 50% of the time the bullet [or at least part of the bullet] will exit. No, we didn't shoot any in the butt. I've lost two deer in all this time, both whitetails, both in 1967, and both with a .270 winchester. Neither was the fault of the caliber...one I shot just before he jumped a barbed wire fence onto another ranch [the ranch would not let us retrive him,] the other I gut shot as he ran out the top of a canyon, we trailed him for over a mile, then lost his trail when he dropped into another rough, rocky canyou. Others my have different experience, but my Dad, my son and I have no trouble killing deer with 22 caliber centerfire rifles.

Damn worthless .270!

SuperDuperDeerKiller .22!

Jack O'Conner is turning where he lays right now!

Sacrelege!!

elliesbear, as you can see real experience means very little around here.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
elliesbear, as you can see real experience means very little around here.

Terry

Yeah if it's not on television it couldn't have happened!

Heres a guy that 223 can be used on elephants.

Forensic Expert Dan Austin Explains The Golani .223 Elephant Rifle(Really Dumb GunGrabber)
JohnJacobH RKBA Commentary ^ | 02/27/2010 | JohnJacobH RKBA Commentary

Posted on Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:47:38 PM by Copernicus

Where has this guy testified as forensic expert?

Can you say mistrial?

Is it too late to have the NYPD revoke his pension?


(Excerpt) Read more at johnjacobh.wordpress.com ...

quote:

Originally posted by Krochus:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I only copied part of the page you can click on the link below and read the whole page for yourself.

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm

and just to illustrate how staggeringly stupid this index is at a K.O. index of 6 the .223 64grn win power point load makes it for MULE DEER in open country (long shots) but not whitetail in cover (close shots). Now I may be wrong and correct me if I am but aren't mule deer roughly TWICE the size of eastern whitetails?

and ya'll want to go by this bunk?

Heck I'll freely admit a .223 for mulies at longer ranges would be stupid.

You asked a question, I answered it. You wanted to know who Taylor was. Knowing that his ideas on the Taylor Index have been around for close to ¾ of a century now, I would have thought most shooters would have heard about him. If you can’t put stock in his ideas, don’t feel bad, Taylor’s ideas have stirred controversy years before I was born and still do.

Now that you flamed on me, I’ll tell you what I think.

Krochus, I really don’t care what you shoot deer with. I know that the 223 Remington would be one of the last cartridges I’d pick too go hunting deer with even if it was legal to do so in Colorado. There is no doubt in my mind that the 22s kill deer but so do a lot of other cartridges.

The reason I read these 223/deer hunting threads is that it amazes me how much passion and anger go into some of the arguments. If you are truly comfortable with your choice of weapon and it’s legal, why the hell would you care what another man thinks about it? I sure wouldn’t let myself get worked up about it.

Shot a 75# hog at 197 yards with one last night. Dropped her in her tracks with a 70gr TSX.

Perry

quote:

If you are truly comfortable with your choice of weapon and it’s legal, why the hell would you care what another man thinks about it? I sure wouldn’t let myself get worked up about it.

And that I can agree with %120

I guess the passion comes from misinformation being spread by folks determined to stay uninformed for the sole purpose of continuing to spread more misinformation. Folks that no matter the subject that once they learn something what they learned that first time is all there is to know.

Myself I try to stay open minded about things in any endeavor. The day I stop learning new things is the day I take a horizontal ride in the back of a white unmarked E series Ford van.

rcamuglia

Actually, I have killed more deer and elk with a .270 Winchester than any other rifle..my parents gave me an new model 70 .270 for my twelth birhday. I currently own two, a Sako and a Husqvarna Imperial. A .270 win is one of my favorite cartridges. However, my experience is that if you shoot em' where the bullet enters and damages the heart lung cavity, they are pretty much dead.

quote:

Originally posted by elliesbear:
rcamuglia

Actually, I have killed more deer and elk with a .270 Winchester than any other rifle..my parents gave me an new model 70 .270 for my twelth birhday. I currently own two, a Sako and a Husqvarna Imperial. A .270 win is one of my favorite cartridges. However, my experience is that if you shoot em' where the bullet enters and damages the heart lung cavity, they are pretty much dead.

Stop being sane, there is no place for sanity here. befuddled feelings are all that count. It does not matter that you have slewn every deer from here to Tim buk too with a .223 shooting 62 grain TSX bullets, all that matters is that someone "feels" that it is not a good idea.

OK Gentlemen, It's time I've come clean.

I've kinda been just jerking some of your chains.


When I first got interested in this thread, I really didn't have too strong an opinion against the .223 and its use on antelope or small deer under 100 yards with the premium bullets as you can see from my previous posts:

quote:

I've not done it personally.

I do believe that the .223 loaded with the right bullet and the proper shot placement would be fine.

A friend of mine who owns quite a large ranch in northern New Mexico full of elk has a nephew who drew an antelope tag. He is small and young without a lot of time behind a rifle. My buddy thought his .223 might work out well and asked me about bullet choices. I told him, as you all have stated, to look for a Partition, Barnes X, or the Winchester Power Point. He found some factory 64 grain Power Points.

At 200 yards it was a one shot kill even though the shot placement was a little too far back.

Personally, as a kid of 19 years old, I killed an antelope at 573 paces with my .22-250 with a rest off of the rag top door of my Jeep with factory 60 grain ammo; I don't remember the brand. I was young and stupid but it worked out; I would never do it again with the better ballistic knowledge I now have.

If I had to, I would use the .22 cals with premium bullets at reasonable ranges and angles for the game of which your topic speaks, but there are much more responsible choices for the animal's, the sport's, and your conscience's sake.

R

As you can plainly see, I actually shot an antelope with my 22-250. I still wouldn't do it again.

Yeah krochus, I'm not in the dark ages; I do know about premium bullets and shoot them regularly in my hunting guns.


Since then, I've needed something to do since I have this terrible cold that's kept me in the house. I can take any side of an arguement and have fun

Well, even though I still don't think the .223 is a good choice for deer, I posted this:

quote:

The morning I killed the deer he was quartering away at 25 yards; bow range. After I fired, the buck kicked like a bronco and took off down into the trees out of sight. I was astonished and thought there was no way I could have missed. I was expecting a "bang-flop" at that range. I checked the area where he was standing and it was a blood bath all the way to where he gave it up about 75 yards away.

So even with a rifle caliber suited to the game they'll go a long way.

I shot that deer at 25 yards with my .300 Win Mag and a 180 grain Accubond. He ran after he was shot 3 times as far as the 25 yard shot!

The cold I have gave me plenty of time to surf around and actually add some input here that I think needed adding; actual terminal ballistic data like the Taylor Index. I was really disappointed that no posters found it necessary to back up their arguements with actual, measurable fact! I've done some reading on shot effectiveness on waterfowl and all of the testing they did by actually shooting birds, measuring penetration and kill-cleanliness. Why hasn't this been done with rifle bullets and big game?, I thought. I remembered the Optimal Game Weight formula penned by Ed Mantunas in my Lyman reloading manual and found it on the 'net to add. After having this ammo in my corner it was easy to argue on the side against the .223 Remington even though many here have a ton of actual data in the form of dead deer. So that's why I went


To sum it all up, If I lived in an area with deer the size of Jackalope and could shoot'em at 100 yards or less, I'd see no problem with the .223 and a good bullet.

Where I hunt, even a small fork is bigger and stronger than the deer in some of these pics posted and I wouldn't even consider the .223.....ethically speaking.

I think the TI and the OGW formulas are great and probably can be used as a guide in bullet/caliber choice for the game a hunter wants to take.







At the risk of all hell breaking loose, that's a pic of a NM muley fork shot at 250 yards with a .243 WSSM and a 95 grain BT. As the OGW formula and TI predicted, it worked

Putting aside the bravado and testosterone, what kind of energy is thought to be adequate for 2-300 lb game? I ask because a 223 doesn't have much left beyond 200 yds. I think that's what bothers me about the whole concept of "contests" to see who can kill the biggest game with the smallest caliber. There's really no thought behind it other than "look what I can do". We all know that there were plenty of deer that weren't DRT, but those never get mentioned.
We also know that this cartridge is adequate in the hands of some folks but it would be irresponsible to recommend as a "go to" CXP2 cartridge...and no one recommends it as such.

The wound channel on a bigger cartridge is bigger, the shock value greater. Whether the 223 is adequate in well practiced hands is really not the question. A 7mm in well practiced hands is MORE adequate and carries more energy down range...irrefutable...done deal.

Yeah! What Jonp said too!

Good post JonP.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 0X0:
[QUOTE]How much did a Viet Cong weigh?

Viet Cong aren't deer. Deer hide makes decent gloves. I expect you'd not be happy with Viet Cong hide gloves -- for the same reasons as bullet penetration.[/QUOTE


?????????????????????[/QUOTE




Hey Teancum,

I think he means that the VC gloves would be comfortable and all, but would wear out too fast.

223 on medium game.....??? Why..??

Makes as much sense as Monica doing Bill...

If you hit where you are aiming with the right bullet...the 223 is more than adequate. Recovered 70gr Barnes TSX's out of 223/5.56 at 2800fps yields a slug measuring .50 and weighing 70 grains. Do the math, that is better than a 100 grain 243 cup and core bullet. Much better than NBT. Most TSX's are not recovered meaning you have a 50 caliber exit.
What is inadequate about that???

Perry

You do the math. What kind of twist rate does it take for the 70gr TSX 223? And how many of these great and potent 223s have adequate twist for that optimum bullet for medium game in the 223? How many just use what they got, or what shoots well, namely varmint weight bullets?

Talking about the 70 gr TSX is mostly hypothetical BS, because it won't work well (stabilize) in most 223s.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
You do the math. What kind of twist rate does it take for the 70gr TSX 223? And how many of these great and potent 223s have adequate twist for that optimum bullet for medium game in the 223? How many just use what they got, or what shoots well, namely varmint weight bullets?

Talking about the 70 gr TSX is mostly hypothetical BS, because it won't work well (stabilize) in most 223s.

KB

this from the person that shoots into a flock of deer hoping to hit one... back to reality though...most AR rifles are now 1-7

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:


Talking about the 70 gr TSX is mostly hypothetical BS, because it won't work well (stabilize) in most 223s.

KB

The 62's do great on paper and deer. My 1 in 8" twist handles them fine.

My 1 in 8" twist also handles 69's with ease. I've never tried the 70 TSX's though, I would bet a 1 in 7" twist would be needed. The thing about the 70" I don't like is they need to be pushed too far in the case to fit the magazine.

ITaking deer with a .223 is really not as hard as people that have never done it think it is.

I promise.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
If you hit where you are aiming with the right bullet...the 223 is more than adequate.

quote:

Recovered 70gr Barnes TSX's out of 223/5.56 at 2800fps yields a slug measuring .50 and weighing 70 grains.

And the Super Politically Correct Bullets are not even making an Exit. Huuuummm - Super pitiful!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
[QUOTE]Recovered 70gr Barnes TSX's out of 223/5.56 at 2800fps yields a slug measuring .50 and weighing 70 grains.

And the Super Politically Correct Bullets are not even making an Exit. Huuuummm - Super pitiful!

What is that supposed to mean???

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
You do the math. What kind of twist rate does it take for the 70gr TSX 223? And how many of these great and potent 223s have adequate twist for that optimum bullet for medium game in the 223? How many just use what they got, or what shoots well, namely varmint weight bullets?

Talking about the 70 gr TSX is mostly hypothetical BS, because it won't work well (stabilize) in most 223s.

KB

Your an idiot and just proved that this is an emotional argument for you. Given statistical/mathematical fact you throw it out based on the rifle??? WTF. If you can't keep up with the intellectual level of this conversation keep your dumb ass comments to your self. RIGHT BULLET RIGHT PLACE. Yes, a varmint bullet in ANY caliber is inadequate for medium sized game HOWEVER that has nothing to do with my previous comments. Try to keep up

Perry

p.s. I apologize to most of you guys, I don't believe in mouthing off behind a keyboard.

This thread is "the thread that keeps on giving"!

What a laugher.

Krochus thinks that Ackley and Boddington, while talking about super high velocity .22's, are giving the .223 their endorsement,

Pictures of deer on an ammo box a company is trying to sell passes for cold, hard evidence that the .223 is adequate,

Guys saying I should use a .223 instead of a bow (a well placed arrow with a sharp broadhead kills quicker than a bullet from a .223 I would bet),

Pro-.223 deer hunters like krochus and Perry so worked up that they completely lose it and have to cuss like sailors in their posts,

Pro-.223 hunters plugging their ears and saying "lalalalalalalala" when actual data based on physics is offered as evidence,

This is funny as heck!

quote:

Originally posted by perry:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
You do the math. What kind of twist rate does it take for the 70gr TSX 223?

Talking about the 70 gr TSX is mostly hypothetical BS, because it won't work well (stabilize) in most 223s.

KB

Your an idiot and just proved that this is an emotional argument for you. Given statistical/mathematical fact you throw it out based on the rifle??? WTF. If you can't keep up with the intellectual level of this conversation keep your dumb ass comments to your self. RIGHT BULLET RIGHT PLACE. Yes, a varmint bullet in ANY caliber is inadequate for medium sized game HOWEVER that has nothing to do with my previous comments. Try to keep up

Perry

p.s. I apologize to most of you guys, I don't believe in mouthing off behind a keyboard.

Just so I understand - this is an emotional argument for whom? Just when did this become intellectual? Since you joined the frakus?

And just when did the rifle and twist rate get excluded from this intellectual debate? Seems to me the rifle/bullet combo is all part of it. However, in this case another factor appears to me to be part of it - namely the mindset of the shooter. If ya balieve it, then it's true - right?

Oh, so when given a fact, now you say it's the right bullet in the right place, etc. So does that mean your comment about the 70gr TSX was just fluff? Apparantly we are in agreement, and most of 223 guys just use on deer what they normally use in the 223 - varmint bullets. You have an odd way of agreeing in this intellectual debate.

Maybe we'll start calling you fluffy.

Do you often mouth off, as you say, when you get emotional behind the keyboard? If you slobber and drool when you're like that - then I suggest that you back off from the keyboard a little.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Talking about the 70 gr TSX is mostly hypothetical BS, because it won't work well (stabilize) in most 223s.

KB

The 62's do great on paper and deer. My 1 in 8" twist handles them fine.

My 1 in 8" twist also handles 69's with ease. I've never tried the 70 TSX's though, I would bet a 1 in 7" twist would be needed. The thing about the 70" I don't like is they need to be pushed too far in the case to fit the magazine.

ITaking deer with a .223 is really not as hard as people that have never done it think it is.

I promise.

Terry

Now Terry is a guy who knows what he is talking about. And he believe it because he has experienced it. No fluff.

As he has explained, he uses his 223 in certain situations, and picks his shots with care. Apparantly he also handloads.

So, my point is - how many 223 guys are actually as knowledgable and experienced as Terry, and actually use optimum bullets for the task, rather than just using varmint bullets?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

Just so I understand

I get pretty sick and tired of those saying one must have experience with a 223 to have an educated opinion about using it

I have no experience

I have an opinon about it

Oh, so when given a fact

I have no experience

I have an opinon about it

Just when did this become intellectual?

I have no experience

I have an opinon about it

I have no experience

I have an opinon about it

I have no experience

I have an opinon about it

I have no experience

I have an opinon about it

I have no experience

I have an opinon about it

I have no experience

I have an opinon about it

I have no experience

I have an opinon about it

I have no experience

I have an opinon about it

I have no experience

KB

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

Assholeitus - it's contagious. Notice the hemorrhoidal piece of work that just popped up. Must be some kind of internet virus. It keeps repeating itself. Hopefully it doesn't replicate itself.

Same crew, same argument as last time. Aren't reunions great.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I have no experience

I have an opinon about it

KB

You should put this at the top of all your posts on this subject as friendly disclaimer. Kind of like a PSA.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
This thread is "the thread that keeps on giving"!

What a laugher.

Krochus thinks that Ackley and Boddington, while talking about super high velocity .22's, are giving the .223 their endorsement,

Pictures of deer on an ammo box a company is trying to sell passes for cold, hard evidence that the .223 is adequate,

Guys saying I should use a .223 instead of a bow (a well placed arrow with a sharp broadhead kills quicker than a bullet from a .223 I would bet),

Pro-.223 deer hunters like krochus and Perry so worked up that they completely lose it and have to cuss like sailors in their posts,

Pro-.223 hunters plugging their ears and saying "lalalalalalalala" when actual data based on physics is offered as evidence,

This is funny as heck!

As if all the previous pwnership on the points you mention become void because you have one of the most disrespected AR members on your side

OH you go from hat in your hand "I'm just messing with ya'll" Back to your earlier self because you think you have allies in "gooeynugutcenter" much like Tojo after hooking up with that Hitler chap.

You have fun with you little axis of ignorance here.

wow.



We have now achieved complete topic implosion.



Hasta la pasta...

On the hilarious side, it's the first time I've been compared to any tyrannical world dictators!

Very entertaining!

"Just when I think I've made it out, they keep puuuling me back in!"....Al Pacino

I'm back!!

MickinColo

Taylor's "Knock ot values" are for head shots on elephant. To applie them to heart lung shots on deer is an "apples/oranges" scenario. I have shot numerous deer in the head with a .223 and I can assure you they are more than "knocked out".

Larry Gibson

BTW; the largest mulie deer I've shot (mount is hanging on my living room wall and not quite as large as the one pictured but a very nice on anyway) was shot with a .223 using a 62 gr Winchester PP. The gutted and skinned carcass weighed just short of 200 lbs at the butchers(somewhat larger than the average Viet Cong - I've shot those also). It was not quite 220 yards away and was a one shot kill. The rifle was a Colt AR15.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I have no experience
I have an opinon about it
KB

You should put this at the top of all your posts on this subject as friendly disclaimer. Kind of like a PSA.

Thanks for your opinion and my motto. No experience is subjective, and your call, not mine. It's your way of not listening to what I have to say, which is ok with me. Your loss. My experience is plenty, especially in not using the 223.

Say, AH, do you have any experience at bungie jumping? If so, or not, do you have an opinion about it?

KB