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.223 on medium game
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Originally posted by Hot Core:
quote:
Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:
Who has taken what medium game (hogs deer ect) with what .223 load?

Note I am NOT asking an ETHICAL question. I just want to know whats been done, and pics are great.
I've never Killed a Hog or a Deer with a 22cal of any size case. The reason is because any of those I'd consider Killing all weigh more than 50#.

Definitely an Ethical and Ballistic Knowledge question.
 
Posts: 3427 | Registered: 05 August 2008Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Brando:
I know lots of guys down in Fl that hunt Wild hogs every weekend with a 22-230 and 223. They always take head shots on them too...

Up north in WV the 22-230 and 223 is becoming a more and more popular whitetail hunting rifle...... even a 17 HMR will kill a deer. But of course I would never recommend this.


.
 
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Originally posted by Brando:
If your going to shoot animals with that small of a caliber, you need to use a bullet that has controlled expansion. You need as much penetration as possible to carry that energy as deep as possible into the tissue. A varmint bullet will not exactly do well...
 
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Originally posted by buffybr:
[QUOTE]
Again, I'm not advocating the .22 calibers as a big game cartridge, and though I've shot some animals with them, they are not my first choice as a big game cartridge. I'm only reporting game I've seen or know have been taken with .22's.
 
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Originally posted by JonP:
We've been through this before, In a good and sensible shooters hands, the 223 is certainly capable of taking medium game. Where it all breaks down is when you have the quartering shot at some distance on a good size animal. If I see a nice rack, I know my 6.5 x 55 or my 270 kills them dead no matter what the angle and how much thigh, loin and vitals I have to penetrate. Under those conditions the little pea shooter may not get it done...and anyone who's honest about it has to admit that. I go hunting with the weapon that is gonna get it done under all conditions.
 
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Originally posted by TC1:
The .223 is fine on deer sized game as long as you wait for the right shot and for me I use premium bullets.

Terry
 
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Originally posted by Hot Core:
Based on a whole bunch of actual clean 1-shot Kills, it is easy to see the more profound effects of available Energy(as the Cartridges increase in Power) - or the opposite - less trauma(staggering, drops, blood loss, internal damage, broken bones, smashed internal organs, etc.) with the smaller calibers.

.
 
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Originally posted by Krochus:
.......shit.......answere the fucking question.......... YOU have some shit you found using google
 
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Originally posted by JonP:
Putting aside the bravado and testosterone, what kind of energy is thought to be adequate for 2-300 lb game? I ask because a 223 doesn't have much left beyond 200 yds. I think that's what bothers me about the whole concept of "contests" to see who can kill the biggest game with the smallest caliber. There's really no thought behind it other than "look what I can do". We all know that there were plenty of deer that weren't DRT, but those never get mentioned.
We also know that this cartridge is adequate in the hands of some folks but it would be irresponsible to recommend as a "go to" CXP2 cartridge...and no one recommends it as such.

The wound channel on a bigger cartridge is bigger, the shock value greater. Whether the 223 is adequate in well practiced hands is really not the question. A 7mm in well practiced hands is MORE adequate and carries more energy down range...irrefutable...done deal.
 
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Originally posted by Krochus:
you have allies in "gooeynugutcenter" much like Tojo after hooking up with that Hitler chap.
.
 
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Subject: Combat Firearms "Report Card" from Iraq



This email from a Marine who's in Iraq . No politics here; just a Marine with a bird's eye view opinion:

US Weapons:



1) The M-16 rifle:

Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They lack the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picatinny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits can't be reliably counted on to put the enemy down.
Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents show a high level of opiate use.



2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon):

.223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of shit. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly (that's fun in the middle of a firefight).



3) The M9 Beretta 9mm:

Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.



4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun:

Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.



5) The M240 Machine Gun:

7.62 NATO (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!) Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down.


Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7..62 round chews up the structure over there.



6) The M2 50 cal heavy machine gun:

Thumbs way, way up. "Ma Deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper - puts their dicks in the dirt very time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.



7) The .45 pistol:

Thumbs up. Still the best pistol around out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model

and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are being re-issued en masse.



8) The M-14:

Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.



9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle:

Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers (we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. It is definitely here to stay.



10) The M24 sniper rifle:

Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.



11) The new body armor:

Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs.and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as shit to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the bullshit about the "old" body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.



12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment:

Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.



13) Lights:

Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it. I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!! With all our technology, it's the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.



Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47's. The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like shit. Undisciplined "spray and pray" type fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. ( Iran , again)


2) The RPG:

Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dogshit. The enemy responded to our up-armored Humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.



3) The IED:

The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordan 's area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155 mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated "shape charges" (Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready made IED's are supplied by Iran , who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges, in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.



4) Mortars and rockets:

Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordan 's NCO's lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage "inside the wire". Jordan 's base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of seconds.



Fun fact:

Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Let's just say they know better now.



Bad guy technology:

Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for navigation and "Google Earth" for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.



Who are the bad guys? Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group. They operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi). These are mostly "foreigners", non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world (and Europe ). Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian govt.), and then travel down the "rat line" which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River that we've been hitting hard for the last few months.



Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as suicide bombers or in various "sacrifice squads". Most, however, are hard core terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.). These are the guys running around murdering civilians an masse and cutting heads off.



The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian) are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters. They have been fighting the Russians for years. In the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites. The Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local govt.'s, the police forces and the Army. They have had a massive spy and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early 80's. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured, or gave up long ago.



Bad Guy Tactics: When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every time! Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing AK's and RPG's directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They get mowed down like grass every time (see the M2 and M240 above). Jordan 's base was hit like this often.



When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting Room). We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast mover's, mostly Marine F-18's, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre Gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night. Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all.



Fun facts:

The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand. That is why we're seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber shit. The new strategy is just simple: attrition.



The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and especially Mosques are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons, and ammo and flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for inflicting civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family members, especially children, is common to influence people they are trying to influence but can't reach, such as local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc..



The first thing our guys are told is "don't get captured". They know that if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman. This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a shit about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi.



As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death. Surrender is not an option. The Iraqi's are a mixed bag.. Some fight well; others aren't worth a damn. Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but they are getting better.



It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of suicide bombers, en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake. Many Iraqi's were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the police forces went right up, along with their motivation. It also led to an exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi's are sick of the insurgent attacks against civilians. The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters.



Morale:

According to Jordan , morale among our guys is very high.They not only believe that they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They are stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1 and then see shit like "Are we losing in Iraq " on TV and the print media.



For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food, and leadership. Bottom line though, and they all say this, is that there are not enough guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the insurgency, primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just can't stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course, permanent US bases there).





Anyway, that's it, hope you found it interesting.
 
Posts: 3427 | Registered: 05 August 2008Reply With Quote
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aka willie b
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Posted 25 August 2009 20:13 Hide Post
I've used the 223 very successfully with the 60 Sierra. Shot placement is critical, though.
Posts: 54 | Registered: 21 July 2009

 
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Dr. Lou
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Posted 25 August 2009 20:14 Hide Post
I would only use a 223 for deer if it's all I had, but it's definitely not my first choice. I'd also make a neck shot. Too many rounds that are more appropriate. Lou

 
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Bobby Tomek
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Posted 26 August 2009 07:13 Hide Post
While a .223 is far from my first, second or even third choice for hunting, there is absolutely no denying that on smaller deer, in the hands of a skilled and patient shooter and using proper projectiles......
 
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Jpat
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Posted 26 August 2009 18:41 Hide Post
.223 would not be my 1st choice. I'd look for something larger. I've tracked to many whitetail that have run. 3 in 1 year for hunters using .243's. So I would say no on a .223.
 
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Andy
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Posted 29 August 2009 16:42 Hide Post
Hunting w a .223 is alot like hunting w a bow. You just have to be patient, and wait for the right shot.
 
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Jimmy P Coaltrain
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Posted 31 August 2009 05:02 Hide Post

A poor hunter with a 30-06 is not any different than a poor hunter with a .223! With the .223 however it does give the man an option to blame the caliber and save his Davey Crockett shooting reputation!
 
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bartsche
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Now one might say that this thread was slanted toward white tails and not mule deer. Quite so, but let me point out that the biggest deer killed in the US was a 409 # white tail in Maine.
My limited experience indicates to me that as a general rule for the average hunter it is not prudent if he or she takes to the field with the intent of killing deer with a 22 caliber rifle or pistol.
I addmitt you can drive a 1/4' slotted round head screw with a 3/16" blade screw driver*** but why would you want to do that when it is more sensable to use the right tool? roger

My Dad said Talk is cheap it takes money to buy whiskey. Do it and than talk about it. Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!!
 
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S&W-Varminator
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Posted 08 September 2009 11:43 Hide Post
.....So don't use it unless you have to.
It's not fun when you mess up your shot and spend half a day looking for a deer you know you hit not find it knowing its suffering, and of course you're expanding your chances using a .223.

 
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Rcam---What was the point reposting all those posts? Was it that someone posted a negative opinion with no actual experience? Most were in that catagory. Might have been one where they tracked one---so what--where was it hit, very probably same results with bigger gun.
 
Posts: 3811 | Location: san angelo tx | Registered: 18 November 2009Reply With Quote
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BOOM
BOOM
BOOM
BOOM
BOOM
 
Posts: 3427 | Registered: 05 August 2008Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by carpetman1:
Rcam---What was the point reposting all those posts? Was it that someone posted a negative opinion with no actual experience? Most were in that catagory. Might have been one where they tracked one---so what--where was it hit, very probably same results with bigger gun.


Just trolling. You should have figured that out on his 2nd post. Throw out 20 posts real quick and it'll get this thread off the page with the dead pigs on it. animal


--------------------------------------------

Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
 
Posts: 6315 | Location: Mississippi | Registered: 18 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Nope.

Any more guesses?
 
Posts: 3427 | Registered: 05 August 2008Reply With Quote
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Definition of "trolling"

Sorry that I'm not up on the forum lingo.....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)



You'll note my posts were to emphasize and support my argument, not to mislead or distract.
 
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All those posts you re-posted pretty much support what I say---no negative actual experience. Go back and read all those you posted---all opinions--no experience.
 
Posts: 3811 | Location: san angelo tx | Registered: 18 November 2009Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by rcamuglia:
Definition of "trolling"

Sorry that I'm not up on the forum lingo.....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)



You'll note my posts were to emphasize and support my argument, not to mislead or distract.


I suppose before long you'll be asking for a definition for the word IS.


--------------------------------------------

Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
 
Posts: 6315 | Location: Mississippi | Registered: 18 May 2002Reply With Quote
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All those posts you re-posted pretty much support what I say---no negative actual experience. Go back and read all those you posted---all opinions--no experience.


Would seem you refuse to see the evidence....all the people that DON'T use the "pea shooter" for deer...

Give you one more..the minimum caliber allowed for whitetail sized game in Europe is generally the 6.5....but what do they know?
 
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Jonp--What evidence? Yes I see those people don't use the pea shooter----but none have stories to back up why not. Just their shooting from the keyboard. That's a far shot from EVIDENCE.
 
Posts: 3811 | Location: san angelo tx | Registered: 18 November 2009Reply With Quote
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There are quite a few more if you would like a reminder.....
 
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It's like telling someone who has run a successful business that they are doing it all wrong. Hard to argue with success.

Unless you're a liberal.
R you?


gunmaker
------------------
James Anderson Metalsmith & Stockmaker
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Posts: 1862 | Location: Western South Dakota | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I've not done it personally.

I do believe that the .223 loaded with the right bullet and the proper shot placement would be fine.

Why couldn't you leave it there? Are you just bored and felt like trolling? fishing


gunmaker
------------------
James Anderson Metalsmith & Stockmaker
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Posts: 1862 | Location: Western South Dakota | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
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We all know that the 223, 204, 218 Bee, 22 Savage Hi power, etc, etc, etc are NOT "go to" deer cartridges. The fact that such varmint cartridges can kill deer is like saying that a 243 can kill an elephant. We all accept that too.

I belong to that group of hunters that chooses to use a lethal load for ALL situations when hunting deer. A 223 is NOT a lethal load..decisive firepower...for deer in ALL situations. For me, that is where the discussion ends. That means that those that go afield with a 223 are "sport" shooting...I go hunting with decisive firepower...to kill game.. not to brag about killing the most with the least.
 
Posts: 1319 | Location: MN and ND | Registered: 11 June 2008Reply With Quote
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I guess that I better take my Lott next year.
Butch
 
Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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Im afraid to even mention how many I've killed with a 204 but my go to rifle is the 300 RUM. Difference is like day and night but both work in good hands.

Shoot what you want as long as its legal!

God Bless, Louis
 
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Originally posted by gunmaker:
It's like telling someone who has run a successful business that they are doing it all wrong. Hard to argue with success.

Unless you're a liberal.
R you?




quote:
Originally posted by rcamuglia: I'm begining to think these "I shot a brontosaurus with a slingshot" type threads are like Liberalism...a mental disorder!



gunmaker don't know me verwy well! (said in a Tweety Bird accent)
 
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In my lifetime I may have killed "Many thousands" of deer by not using a .25 ACP.....I highly recommend not using it to all of you hunters out there!

As a matter of fact it's among the top calibers to not use!



Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!



I'm really beginning to believe that this "I killed a brontosaurus with a slingshot" type thread is like Liberalism....a mental disorder.
 
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People have killed deer and much bigger with a bow---and much less weapon than that and cant comprehend that a 3,000 fps bullet will do it? What am I missing? Seems obvious to me that a .223 will work.
 
Posts: 3811 | Location: san angelo tx | Registered: 18 November 2009Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by butchlambert:
223 one shot kills.


I have a lot of others if you want to see them.
Butch

quote:
Originally posted by butchlambert:
Kabluewy, I just wore out your email with stories and pics. Pat Byrne uses a 700, a Stiller receiver, and an AR. He is a killing machine. He probably kills 100 a year. His 223AI uses 45grn TTSX bullets. He uses 68grn BR bullets that he makes in his 6x47 and different sizes in his AR. I wish that I knew how to put all his emails and stories together in one area. I could also do that with his bow kills with his recurve.
Butch

rcamuglia,
Did you see these 2 posts by Mr. Lambert by chance ?
Kinda neat eh ?........ tu2





 
Posts: 592 | Registered: 28 February 2005Reply With Quote
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The emails Butch sent had several more pictures of dead hogs shot with a 223 and 6x47 Lapua, and interesting stories too.

KB


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Posts: 12818 | Registered: 16 February 2006Reply With Quote
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rcamuglia,
Did you see these 2 posts by Mr. Lambert by chance ?
Kinda neat eh ?........ tu2[/QUOTE]


Very neat! So neat that I'm sure you won't want to hear how neat it really is!

I'm posting on an iPhone right now.

When I hit the "quote" icon, it shows yours and Butch's posts but without the pictures. It only shows the photobucket tags with Butch's labels.

Those hogs are labeled "Lapua hogs"

Pretty neat, huh tu2

Even if he had shot them with the .223, I would have no doubt about its possibility as I have established and said this entire thread. They look like 3 labs laying there.
 
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