Update June 4, 2017 - The project proceeded with great results.

THE FULL WRITE-UP IS HERE: http://forums.accuratereloadin...6521043/m/3401049761




Original 26 April, 2011 post continues below:
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I got hold of a Marlin 1895 GST - the limited edition stainless model with the engraved receiver. The gun is in great shape except for the bore which is almost smooth. The rifle was made in 2007 and had the six groove deep rifling, not micro-groove. Either someone gave it a working over or it was made that way and should never have come out of the Marlin factory. It shoots 6" groups at 35 yards. So, as a minimum, I am looking at a new barrel.

It would be easy to have it re-barreled in 45-70 but I am wondering if I can have it made to shoot a .40 caliber wildcat. I would prefer using bullets of .411 over .416 or .429 for various reasons.

Perhaps a wildcat based on the 7.62 Russian, sort of like the 9.3x54R Finn only bigger. The rim of the Russian is slightly smaller in diameter than the 45-70 but I think it could be made to work without much difficulty. The weakest part of the 1895 system is the small diameter barrel shank. The Russian is slightly smaller in diameter at the base and a barrel chambered for that case would have a little more meat around the chamber than a 45-70 barrel. The Russian case and the 45-70 case are about the same length. If the Russian case was expanded and a bullet for the .405 Win was loaded into it then the overall length of the cartridge would be about the same as the 45-70. I would think that it would get pretty close to .405 Win performance, especially if the Russian case was blown out a smidgen. Bullets and brass are plentiful. Cases would be easy to make and load.

Objective would be 2150fps for 300gr bullets and 1850fps 400gr bullets (Woodleighs?)


So, am I crazy? Is this feasible? Who would be the guy to do the work?

Sounds like fun--

lots of brass, a tad different-

why not.

How about using a larger case and not running hot pressures.
If you take the 348 case and neck up to 411 and trim to 2.1" ish you should achieve your goal. You could blow out the taper to reduce bolt thrust. A 400-348 short could get what you want with nominal Marlin lever pressure.
Some might say rebore and go with the 470 Turnbull.

Thanks for the feedback, Boom Stick.

There have been several wildcats done on the .348 case and I thought about some of those. But the Russian brass is easy to get and will be around for both our lifetimes. Also, I like the idea of just necking up, loading, and shooting.

Then there is the barrel shank of the Marlin to consider. The .348 case is bigger at the base than the 45-70. So the end result of going to a 348 case is even less chamber wall thickness than the little the 45-70 leaves. To improve the situation, some Marlin smiths ream out the action threads, lowering the height of the threads, so that a barrel with an oversize shank can be used for 348 based cartridges.

It would be simpler to re-bore to something like a 470 Turnbull or 50 Alaskan but I don't want to go bigger. I'd rather go smaller and .411-.412 bullets are readily available in flat and round nose configurations because of the .405 Winchester.

I don't think it would require "hot pressures" to meet the objective velocities. We're talking about something on the order of 3000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. As you suggest, taking out some of the taper would help. I'm not sure about doing that though.

Something to consider is the rim.
I have wondered why we don't have a modern version of the 40-65 but with 411 bullets
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd4065winchester.jpg

Base of 7.62x54R case = 0.4860"
Base of 450 Marlin case (in front of case head) = 0.5030"
Base of 45-70 case = 0.5055"
Base of .348 case = 0.5460"
Marlin barrel threads = Major diameter 0.775" minor diameter 0.715"

Therefore, at the threads:

Minimum chamber wall using 7.62x54R case = 0.1145"
Minimum chamber wall using 450 Marlin case (in front of case head) = 0.1060"
Minimum chamber wall using 45-70 case = 0.1047"
Minimum chamber wall using .348 case = 0.0845"

A little bit of metal can make a big difference.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Something to consider is the rim.

Yes, I'm not sure if that will be a problem or not but it doesn't seem to cause any trouble in bolt rifles with flat bolt faces.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I have wondered why we don't have a modern version of the 40-65 but with 411 bullets
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd4065winchester.jpg

The proposed cartridge wouldn't be much different then that but it would have a slight shoulder and, I believe, hold more powder.

Might want to look at the 411 JDJ too.

quote:

411 JDJ

Great cartridge based on the 444 Marlin. But the 444 Marlin rim is the about the same size as that of the 30-30, .514" and .506" respectively, much smaller than the .608" of the 45-70 or .570" of the 7.62 Russian. Because of that, I don't think it will work in my Marlin 1895 rifle without changing some of the parts, if it will work at all. And with the 1895's larger ejection port I can take advantage of a little bigger case.

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd8x56r.jpg
Maybe the 8x56r is a better starting point.

The base cartridge needs to have a rim as big as the 45-70. The Siamese cartridges would also probably work but they are almost impossible to find. I think the Russian is the closest thing to a 45-70 that is readily available.

I'm not experienced with wildcats. Should I anticipate any problems opening the case mouths from .311 to .411? Any suggestions for who could/would make a reamer?

Hey Guys,
How about going rimless?
A shortened 416 Ruger would be a great case to work with since its easy to get.
I'm sure there are others.
I've got the 405 Bug also. I'm looking into getting a 405WSSM upper for my AR 15.
Its a sickness I tell ya

Cheers, John

The idea is to make a case that will work through my 1895 Marlin. That means there are OAL, base diameter, and rim diameter constraints. The boldface and extractor of the rifle necessitate a rimmed cartridge similar at back end to the 45-70. There are only a few cartridges that use such a large rim. Most of them are difficult to obtain. The 7.62x54R is readily available.

How about a simple neck down with a shoulder 411-45-70

Sort of like a 38-56 but with a .411 bullet. Would that case be difficult to make?

My Bad,
I thought a 338 Marlin was rimless

Well I think the most important aspect to the case design is to duplicate the 405 Win. The older 405 Win loads are similar to the top loads in a Marlin. This is a boon for load development.
The 45-70 is 79 grains capacity
The 405 is 78 grains capacity. Pretty remarkable resemblance to take advantage of.
So to duplicate capacity I would reduce some body taper and have a short ish neck say about .3" but have a shallow shoulder say 15 or 20 degrees.
So shoulder diameter of .490"
this would give 27 thou shoulders
I think the nominal load of 300 @ 2,200 is feasable.

Hey Guys,
I just bumped into this article.
www.levergun.com/Marlin/index.html
I've never owned a Marlin Lever but going by the article they are tough.
Got a wildcat in there that equals a 458 Win Mag.

Cheers John

Re barrel and re chamber to a 40-65. That is the simplest, easiest, and most practical course of action. The 45-70 is the parent case, and cases are everywhere.

You will be shocked at what it will do with black powder and the right bullet. You will be REALLY shocked at what it will do when you get it above 1700 fps with smokeless.

I have ordered the reamer and dies. Once I get those I will have the rifle re-barreled. We will see how it works out.

There has to be a reason for everything. My objective is NOT to create a cartridge that produces the maximum possible foot pounds of energy for the 1895 Marlin to digest. That's been done and I have no interest in it.

The objective of the cartridge is to:

1. Shoot easily obtainable Winchester .405 bullets in the Marlin 1895 action
2. Maintain OAL and rim diameter to work with little or no modification of the Marlin rifle
3. Use easily obtainable 7.62x54R cases
4. Use a cartridge with slightly smaller base diameter than the 45-70 so the chamber walls of the rifle remain a little thicker than with the standard 1895 Marlin rifle
5. Provide gentle taper and slight bottleneck to facilitate loading and feeding
6. Produce performance similar to Winchester .405 performance. Goal is 2150fps with 300gr bullets, slightly less than the .405 Winchester factory load.

To achieve the objective a cartridge is proposed that is formed by expanding the neck of the 7.62x54R case to accommodate standard bullets made for the .405 Winchester. For simplicity I am calling it the .405 Grenadier.

The weakest part of the Marlin 1895/45-70 system is the small diameter barrel shank. The 40-60 cartridge, nice as it is, would leave the chamber wall just as thin as would the 45-70. Chambering a cartridge based on the 7.62x54R would leave the minimum chamber wall about .01" thicker (9.36% thicker), a significant difference.

Should be fun
If you need more power maybe consider ten thou body taper or for lower pressure or less bolt thrust. Should not have feeding and extracting issues if the reamer is designed right. Ten thou body taper should be fine.

I know this isn't a " Wildcat Cartridge " question.

Question: Would a 450-400-3 Nitro Express (.411 bullet)" work (i.e.; Rim Size/Cartridge length / Hornady 400 grn factory load 2150 fps )... without too much modifications, besides the re-barreling .. ?

PAPI

quote:

Originally posted by PAPI:
I know this isn't a " Wildcat Cartridge " question.

Question: Would a 450-400-3 Nitro Express (.411 bullet)" work (i.e.; Rim Size/Cartridge length / Hornady 400 grn factory load 2150 fps )... without too much modifications, besides the re-barreling .. ?

PAPI

I believe they would but they would need to be rounded or flat nosed and the OAL would keep them in the case a bit. I plan to find out.

Nice meaningful project. Keep us tuned in as it develops. roger

In a Marlin you would need a very short case and reduce the rim a tad. On a 1886 you could do a 2" case with nominal rifle bullets that are flat nose and get 400 grain bullets about 2,000 FPS by my guess. I have been imagining that same idea for a 1886 by using a blown out 348 case but shorter tip to crimp bullets getting 400 @ 2100
a 450/400 2"ish would be fun and already head stamped! Maybe a 2.25" one with 405 bullets would be ideal for the 1886.

quote:

Originally posted by PAPI:
I know this isn't a " Wildcat Cartridge " question.

Question: Would a 450-400-3 Nitro Express (.411 bullet)" work (i.e.; Rim Size/Cartridge length / Hornady 400 grn factory load 2150 fps )... without too much modifications, besides the re-barreling .. ?

PAPI

Thanks for the info Boom Stick

I was reading thru " Cartridges of the World 10th Edition ; Chapter 4 ; Wildcat Cartridges ; pg. 204 "

416 BARNES

HISTORICAL NOTES:" ... which uses the 45/70 Government Cartridge as its base.. easy conversions... readily available .. in particular is Marlin's M-1895 Lever Action.. "

General Comments; " The 416 Barnes would be an excellent cartridge for North American Big Game... "

416 Barnes Loading Data:
300 SP / 2355
330 Lead / 2045
400 SP / 1920
400 SP / 2140
400 SP / 2155
400 Lead / 1830

Editors Notes: Its too bad that Marlin is not chambering this fine round.

PAPI

Yes, Papi, I saw that too. I think it is a very well thought out round. The .416 Barnes would be a great choice for a Winchester rifle but the Marlin needs a cartridge with an OAL of about 2.5".

Unfortunately, unless you cast your own bullets, there really isn't much in the way of a .416 bullet suitable for use in a short cartridge fed from a tubular magazine. For example, Midway lists 25 .416 bullets of several brands - 19 are 400 to 450 grains (long), 5 are 350 grains (but pointed), and only one is 300 grains and it is a Barnes Triple-Shock X (pointed and long for weight because it is brass). It seems all the .416 bullets are made for the powerhouse 416 cartridges. Of course that also means that the .416 bullets are designed to perform properly at powerhouse velocities.

Conversely, since the recent reintroduction of the .405 Winchester cartridge, flat and round nose 300 grain .411 bullets are readily available again. Midway lists the Hornady 300gr flat nose and the Woodleigh 300gr Weldcore Round Nose. They also list a 315gr Lead Flat Nose which is fine by me because I don't have to cast and lube it. Montana bullet works also sells no fewer than six different pre-cast and lubed .405 bullets in 300gr and 325gr. And all of those bullets are designed to perform properly at .405 Winchester velocity.

40-65 Winchester?

Rich

1887 introduction in the 1886 Winchester.

Just neck down a 45-70.

I'm in the finishing/load developement in doing a swap barrel Marlin 336 356 Win to 444M...I bought a 444S barrel from Gun parts, broke out the lathe and mill and started mixing and matching parts..Brownells catalog is a veritable gold mine when it comes to parts matching.

I found out all kinds of good information while chasing parts and checking out Brownell's, Midway and Gunparts. Basically the breech bolt, finger lever and carrier from a 45-70 will handle ALL the different case rim sizes and in fact Marlin uses the same carrier for the 45-70 and 450 M and the OEM 3030 carrier with a slight 0.050" mill at the carrier rocker end and opening up the boltface, will handle the 3030, 444, 45-70 and 450M rounds. I am able to feed and eject rounds up to 2.70" long with selected sharp tapered bullets and 2.65" with the WFN nose shapes.

Since you have already purchased the reamer and dies what I learned and am saying is moot, but by using a bottlenecked cartridge you can eliminate the need for a rim...I know this for a fact as I can shoot the rimmed 356 W and rimless 358 Win cases interchangeably when I have the 356W barrel on. And it doesn't take but a few seconds with a motodremel tool to slightly modify the extractor to fit the different rims OR by exchanging extractors.

I've been working with many cartridge cases, design wise, to come up with a few other "Swap" barrels for my 336 and there are many to chose from...AND there is always the matter of trimming the rim down...compare the 444M rim OD to base OD with the 45-70 and other cases...you will be surprised.

As always, you have to get WAY outside the envelope and consider ALL the parameters, ESPECIALLY with the Marlin pressure and barrel limitations, but that doesn't mean you CAN'T do a lot of easily done wildcatting to the Marlin...you just have to use you head when doing so.

The 50 Alaskan has a pressure limit of ~35KCUP in the Marlin and gets it's energy more from bullet weight than velocity...the same can be done with several other very nice modern cases like the RCM and WSM...but don't say this to just anyone...if they don't understand all they don't know, then you're in for a tough sell.

You have a very nice cartridge there and you will have lots of fun with it...good on you mate.

40-65 Win...whats a good one AND so is the 405 Win...you just have to trim the case to match the max COAL you can feed...but then you would not have a 405 Win, you would have a 405 wildcat "somethingelse"... ...I think a 40 RCM, or 416 RCM or 40-284 or ??

The one thing I ran into was the point of diminishing returns...while it is realatively easy to wildcat to a bigger case or a smaller dia caliber, you also have to reduce the pressures to keep from eating your Marlin and what actually happened was you gained VERY LITTLE velocity while increasing the powder amount at a greater rate.

Grenadier...you hit the problem point with square threaded Marlins...the V threaded 450M has a little more meat to play with...there is at least one rechambered to RUM case size 450 Yukon rechambered from a 450 M out there running 450M OEM pressures and gaining some good ballistics, but doing that to a square threaded barrel is asking for trouble...still the WSM/RCM cases can be used if the pressure is reduced.

I'm having a hard time trying to get any more ballistics out of the Marlin that isn't already available in the presently available cartridges...but BRAGGIN' RIGHTS are powerful incentiveS to have something NO ONE ELSE HAS.

Anyway...enjoy your new toy...it looks like an excellent proposition.

Luck

The 1886 gives you more options but at twice the price.
With the marlin limitations I think a 400-444 with v threads could be good. The 400-450 marlin has been done and seems good. I agree a 400 or 458 on the rcm case could be interesting. Run a 300 RCM reamer in a 450 marlin and you have an easy wildcat.

FOOBAR - You just told me stuff about the Marlin I never of heard anywhere before. Thanks.

I thought about just re-barreling to .444 but the problem of proper bullets for the caliber comes up again. I am not a fan of the 240gr and 265gr .429 bullets in a rifle. I expect the .405 wildcat case will hold a little more powder than the .444 Marlin case.

Comparing most popular bullet weights for the 405 Win and 444 Marlin:

300gr Hornady .411 Interlock Flat Point
Ballistic Coefficient = 0.215
Sectional Density = 0.251

265gr Hornady .430 Interlock Flat Point
Ballistic Coefficient = 0.186
Sectional Density = 0.205

You can find 300 grain bullets for the 444 but you can also find 400 grain bullets for the 405. In either case loading the longer bullets reduces powder capacity.

I think the 405 wildcat will be the 40 caliber for the Marlin lever gun that the 444 Marlin never was.

I'm learning a lesson a NY second playing with this swap barrel project for sure...

The 444M with a 1/20 twist will handle 405 Beartooth bullets very well up into the 1800fs range according to the articles in the Beartooth Tech section and Load from a Disk and the 4 articles make very good reading.

The 444 is about 8-10% less volume case wise than the 45-70 so isn't all that much behind it.

The biggest problem is few people want to wildcat the Marlin action...I guarantee you don't want to ruffle any feathers on the Marlin Owners forum by suggesting such a thing...they get riled real easy.

There are also some very good 290, 325, 330 and 355 gr loadings for the 444M from Beartooth. My 1/38 T will do ~2300 fs with the 290 BT and RL7 below 43KCUP and case expansion ~0.4675"...but the accuracy isn't what a 270gr Speer GD is. I used one 444M case to fire lap the barrel and work up loads...reloaded it 40 times and it looke the same as it did after the third firing.

A little gunsmithing by knowledgeable leversmiths will get you 2.73" COAL's and one or two can get you 2.85" COAL...45-90 range.

You can always have a mold made for slightly heavier bullets...stay away from the older 1/38 twist barrels tho' if you want heavy bullets.

I designed a 45 cal using the 338 RCM case necked up with a slight 0.040" shoulder width, ~45° shoulder angle, minimum taper and 0.350" neck...case volume ~84gr H20 that will work through a 3030 mag tube or 444 tube and you could also use a 450 M case or 458 WM case trimmed a bit also,(BUT, you need a different mag tube for the 45-70)...basically swapping in a 45-70 breech bolt and carrier(~60 bucks each) in a 336 plus a little milling on the ejector port will get you there.

There are a lot of ways to skin this poodle and make you a real "Stomper" without dealing with that HUGE, in the way, useless, 45-70 rim. I built a 458 American on a SMLE 2a receiver and didn't have to go throught the hell of trying to make a magazine feed...the 308 12 rnd mag feed just perfect with only a little lip work...6 down and one up the snout......and the 458 American is basically what you would be doing by using a 450M or RCM case...I use 458 WM cases trimmed to length to get the 3.05" mag length with the different bullets crimped in their cannelures and keep the pressures down to below 45KCUP...simple as cake.

With your 1895 all you have to do is have PT&G cut you a reamer, CH4D do your dies then rechamber as the RCM case has a 0.532" base and a perfect case length for the Marlin at 2.62"-2.65" COAL...If I could find a cheap 450M or 45-70 I would do a 450 Yukon on the 450M and my 45 "RCM" cum 458 American Long(2.35") on the 45-70 and gain 8-15%. You would have the extra capacity potential if you wanted to use it.

Basically it all depends on what you want and what you want to pay to get there...with the exception of the mill work I did so the 444 case would clear, anyone with a modicum of mechanical skills can do the parts swapping and just about any machine shop could do the port opening in the 336 receiver as it is nothing but a straight cut.

Lots of info on the Marlinowners forum and also Leverguns, Paco Kelly, Mic McPhersons' "Accurizing the Factory Rifle" and his articles you can find online.

I don't know why the resistance to wildcatting the Marlin and doing it SIMPLY, but I'm guessing it's due to limited information and conservatism....and the fact that getting whacked around by the heavy recoil might put some off their feed.

Luck

Grenadier.......You might wast to look at the caliber called the 45/90, it does have a lot going for it without as much prep work I think.

FWIW, Grenadier, I just finished load developement for all intents and purposes except for checking out BT's 280 and 290 offerings.

MY 22", 444S 444 Marlin, 1/38T barrel is long throated ~1.00"...DON'T USE THE LOAD DATA OR COALS IN A FACTORY THROATED BARREL...THE ROUNDS WON'T FIT AND IF YOU DID JAM THEM IN THE CHAMBER YOU WOULD BE JACKING THE PRESSURES UP WAY BEYOND SAFE PRESSURE LIMITS. BE WARNED.

Speer 270gr Gold Dot, 2.65" COAL, RL7, ~2250fs at 41.5KCUP...~3000ftlbs MZ, 1800 at 100yds.

Hornady 300gr XTP/HP, 2.62" COAL, H 4198, ~2050fs at ~41.5CUP...2800ftlbs MZ, 2000 at 100 yds.

As you can see these loads are NOT hot and the long throating helps reduce the pressures even more...I have a few thousand psi left to play with if I get a wilder hair than I already have.

Both loads produce ~1" or less 3 shot clover leafs at 100 yds...I can't get the BT 265 0.432" hard cast lead or the 310 0.430" hard cast to stay within a 6" pistol bull at the same distance...with SEVERAL different powders, COAL's etc.

I've used the same 2 cases to load roughly 70 rounds and 3 other cases for the 270 and 300 gr accuracy and velocity testing...about 30 rounds.

The case longevity with this rifle just blows me away, but I did polish the sizer to size about 0.0015", so that helps. The cases do stretch ~0.001" per firing for about 30 times then about half that for the next ??.

Luck on your project.

I just approved the reamer drawing. Small 30 degree shoulder with a body taper just over 15 thousands. This is going to be fun.

Good luck
Would be interesting to see case capacity.
I guess you would split the difference on pressure between the 444 and 45-70.
If you don't like it you can always rechamber to 40-70

Looking forward to seeing how your project works out.

Ran you case through Load from a Disk design program...it came out ~71 gr H20...300 gr bullets at ~2000fs at ~44-45KCUP and 400 at ~1650fs at the same pressures. LD's predictions are sometimes high and sometimes low depending on all the variables compared to actual chrono readings for all the different rifles I've played with.

Good Luck

FOOBAR - What case capacity did you use? The wildcat case will be about .472" in diameter at the shoulder instead of .457" of the original case. My guess is that the case capacity will be about 72 grains of water, just in between the 444 Marlin capacity of 69 grains and the the 75 grain capacity of the .400 Whelen.

So case capacity will be about the same as the 40-65 but slightly higher pressure I am guessing. Does anyone have the case capacity of the 40-65?